>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin tonight with a look at the new film "joy." joining me are david o. russell and three of its stars robert de niro, bradley cooper and edgar ramirez. >> that was a film i did not feel i had ever seen where a woman had to make of herself to become fierce and create something and the men who could be strong enough to be behind the strong woman and love her, and she becomes kind of, to me, it's like the godmother. she's forgiving, patient, but she's tough. you can't be successful unless you're tough, but she still has a gigantic heart. >> rose: we continue with tattoo artist keith mccurdy better known as bang bang. >> we're just happy to tattoo. we love it so we want to make

tattoos for people, whether it's the most difficult thing or something simple, we can pull out inspiration from ourselves, like how am i going to design this simple tattoo perfectly for this person, so that part of it is how we stay inspired and keep doing it. >> rose: "joy" and bang bang when we continue. >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: "joy" is the new film from writer/director david o. russell. joy is a working class single mother who invented the miracle

mop and founded the company ingenious designs. deadline called "joy" one of the year's most enriching and entertaining pill ifums. here's the trailer. >> christie, look at me. i want you to remember something. a lot of times people get nice things and start to think differently. we got here from hard work and humility. don't ever think the world owes you anything because it doesn't. the world doesn't owe you a thing. i was valedictorian in high school, got into a fancy college. i stay here because my parents can afford it. >> you're like a gas leak. we don't see you're smell you but you silently kill us all. >> you're beautiful. could marry anybody. a doctor, a lawyer, a nice man instead of -- i don't know what to call this guy. >> are you seriously talking about this right now?

>> i believe the ordinary makes the extraordinary every single day. >> i have real ambitions and real ideas. >> i'm very serious. joy has run a business her entire life. >> it's my fault. i gave her the confidence to think she was more than just an unemployed housewife. >> i don't want to end up like my family. >> i have to do things myself once and for all. >> god speed. good luck. here we go. >> you grow up and you come into this world. there's all sorts of things in it. money, crime, betrayal. seems like they're shaking us down. >> you could pay more. i can. but when you realize the only thing you're going to have is what you make. >> you are in a room and there is a gun on the table. the only other person in the room is an adversary in commerce. only one of you can prevail. do you pick up the gun, troy? >> i pick up the gun.

♪ you don't know what it's like ♪ ♪ baby you don't know what it's like ♪ >> listen to me -- never speak on my behalf. about my business. again. ♪ ♪ to love somebody ♪ to love somebody >> rose: >> rose: joining me is the film's writer and director david o. russell, as well as actors robert de niro, bradley cooper and edgar ramirez. glad to have all of them here. you say this film is inspired by brave women. i assume joy is the real live person. >> we never name her name in the movie but joy mangano is responsible for 50% of the detail in the picture. >> rose: inspired by brave women? >> daring women. >> rose: is this the first

time we see this kind of film where we see a strong woman and a group of strong men behind her? >> yes. that's a film i didn't feel i had ever seen where a woman had to make of herself, really become fierce and create something, and the men who could be strong enough to be behind the strong woman and love her and she becomes kind of, to me, just like the godmother. she's forgiving, she's patient, but she's tough. you can't be successful unless you're tough, but she's still got a gigantic heart. so to me, i've not seen that. they're the best divorced couple. there is a romance at the center of it. >> rose: but it's also about family. >> it's very much about family. >> rose: all your films are about family. >> the silver lining, american family is very important. i feel privileged to work with

robert. he's like the godfather of uh all our pictures. he inspires everyone on the set. we're all privileged to work with him. bradley is a co-collaborator and filmmaker and brad is new to our team. >> rose: you like the ensemble. >> william wilier worked with betty davis, robert worked with scorsese so much, and jennifer and robert and i have worked together and there is a trust you have with other artists and you take chances and will do anything for each other. >> rose: do you see this often? >> you see it a lot. the list goes on and on. it seems that the better directors are more than better

directors, the finer directors have that understanding. also i think in the theater we have the same thing, but in movies that seems to be a good thing. >> rose: what's "it"? well -- >> rose: among those directors? >> that they feel more comfortable working with the people they've worked with before because they know how they think, how they behave and they know their patterns and they can see them in another part. i know if i was in david's situation, i would be excited by saying, well, i have so and so, and i want to see them do this, and i know them and i know they can do it, it will be in a way which we haven't seen before, but that's all the better. so and he has -- he's great at it. >> rose: it's you and marty. yeah, we've had a terrific relationship. >> rose: you're new to this? yeah. >> rose: house of it for you o come into this. >> it was a huge privilege. it's always a beautiful thing to be worked into a family and

especially such a creative and protective family as they are. it's a beautiful privilege especially because it's great to have a seat at such a great table. i'm saying that david has created a universe that is unique and surprising and funny and heartbreaking like life itself, so it's sensitive enough to capture all these contradictions and put them all together in his films to make them work in a seamless way and that is something that we don't see very often in just a handful of people are able to do that. >> rose: what's the story? it's a story we've never seen before. it's a female empowerment movie. it's a movie about not hiding your dreams or casting them away for 17 years public works if they're there, take them. it's about overcoming obstacles,

even family ones, and it's about doing what needs to be done in order to fulfill one's potential. >> rose: a journey of self-discovery for her? >> yes, i watched jennifer grow up in silver linings play book. she was a girl. she asked these two what it was like to be famous. i've watched her deal with an enormous amount of attention and remain true to herself and find her voice of power and dignity. i watched her buy her own house and unpack her boxes and learn to conduct and protect herself while still being true to herself. that takes a certain power and she made herself starting at 14. oto me, the movie is about jennifer as well. >> rose: her narrative is her narrative as well. >> i felt that. >> rose: self-invention as well. >> we would never want to do a biopic. it's about maturity and power. what is success? people think it looks like a

cake company outside. it's a struggle that never ends, filled with heartbreak. what's the emotion "joy"? i want to make sure there is enough for me to come to my collaborators and say this is worthy of your time. jennifer said i'll do it if you'll do it. i said do it if we can do these ambitions. your emotion, joy, when you're a child, does it a lifetime, 10 to 25 years old. when you're a child, that's an innocent joy. when you get married that's a euphoric joy. there is a famous disastrous wedding toast, a friendship ending and he gives a doozie. what a bad guy but he's right about the marriage. what's going to happen when you marry a latino singer? is he going to bring home the

bacon? i don't know. but he's a loving guy. but, what happens when you get divorced an you have two kids, him living in the basement, which is based on truth, he lives in the basement. he's a romantic. we have the odd couple in the basement, then they hate each other. and what is joy at that moment in your life when you feel like you lost your -- how do you find inspiration again and find a mature joy? for me in the end she found power and tolerated and forgive him. we found the real father who had sued her. that's what happens in family commerce, and she forgave him. she has a big heart. >> rose: where does bradley fit in? >> bradley describes the picture as beginning the odyssey. she begins in her father's metal garage. he built the bus routes. it would be the '60s. it's snowy, a metal garage. his pioneering vision is ending

when the movie begins. his business is contracting. this man becomes her dream for a moment. teaches her sing. teaches her to speak spanish. that's exciting for me as a filmmaker. you tell the story out of time and see the divorce and the romance that preceded it. by the time she gets to him it's the emerald city. i love m.g.m. of 1950 that he treated with great sincerity and vision and took a chance on her and that also is not easy to have happen. it almost fails many times. >> rose: she comes in and first impression, you take her on. you give her the shot on the equivalent of qvc. >> right. >> rose: what did you see in her? >> i think it was very practical and it was a great invention. when he watched it work, it was a home run what she did with the miracle mop. he just took the time to watch her properly demonstrate it for

him. but we also talk about the fact this guy had a chance. barry gave him a chance. you can tell he doesn't look like the other people in the room. a little disheveled, comes from a sports background, so he h's probably very familiar with the idea of someone giving somebody an opportunity. as we've all experienced and as i've experienced in this room with you and you, people taking a chance with me, and with you quite frankly the first time i came on the show, and she found a like-minded person halfway through the movie, thank god, like we all have, and he opened the door, he cracked it open for her and she barreled through it and never looked back. >> rose: at this stage, do you prepare a lot? >> with david, it's a -- yeah. he directs in such a way that it's all distilled through him. i always say that david, to me, writes for the camera and so

that he'll throw us lines and things like that. and this family is the dynamic is so complex, like any family, it has to be distilled through him and he directs it in the way that he wants and in the direction that it should go. so we follow him. i mean, if you asked rudy, the guy i played, what he thought, he would say, well, that's not me, maybe, or i didn't do it, or whatever, but you have to make a choice. >> rose: if the real father watched this film, he would say that? >> i don't know. i wouldn't be surprised. maybe he would be happy, i don't know. or joy was happy, the actual joy mangano. but that is why david is so great, we rely him to steer us in the direction he wants to go because we know whatever it is, it will be unique. >> let me say something about him. i always have to make it fresh and new for him. he became a man since i met him.

he made a movie with clint eastwood. his boyishness is gone. he comes out and is like a man my farther worked with as a salesman, a man putting bread on the table in the hounds tooth jacket the guys wore. he's not fooling around. could be a mop or stock he's selling. ecomes on and is meticulous. he teaches everybody to be meticulous. he's never too big to be the actor me is. robert de niro, i watched be the leader of a growing business, a very smart businessman whom i've learned from and just watched going back 30 or more years believing in real estate and unexpected neighborhoods and building exciting restaurants and hotels and involving his family which is a balancing act that is worthy to me of parts of great cinema about family businesses. the godfather, you have to watch people relate and control the

relationships. i just want to tell one story about your m meticulousness. there is a day on the set he comes in, jennifer is having nightmares being haunted by her childhood who is having dreams and her child is saying to her in her nightmares saying what happened to you? what are you? you have been buried. it can happen in the world of adult concerns. you can get lost. what happened to your magic? wake up. and he's about to give her cough syrup to make her go to sleep. and i said, this guy is meticulous, character is romantic, runs a metal garage and dresses up in polo, that's who is real guy is. he says, yeah, i think the chain is right. viny, our amazing prop master from staten island says it will take ten minutes to go to the truck. i said maybe we should just shoot a few and let's go. and from behind around the corner i hear the voice, roll camera, action, pause, wait a

minute... let's not just go. i want the chain. please get the chain. i just felt everything on the set just go... in total respect. because he was right and wanted the time, the ten minutes to get the chain. >> rose: the details. i only make movies about specific people that i can love and see in their contradictions, that's a specific thing. the chain you had in silver linings is the same thing. >> rose: why do you think you're that way? >> well... oh, come on, robert, you know it's true. talk about what you do. >> no, sometimes i'm very particular, very specific, and other times i won't waste time on things that i know -- i prepare that i'm in there and i do it for better or worse and it might turn out totally different than the way i anticipated or expected it to happen.

that happens, and i just don't want to be afraid to move forward with something and say i'm going to go do it, whether it's right or wrong, the situation i made, and that's it. and that to me is more important because it has a spontaneity as the stuff david does and an aliveness that's essential to a movie work and living and breathing the way he does it. >> the first time i worked with bob, one of the reasons he is one of the best if not the best is the marriage of the cerebral and instinct i watched. we're doing a scene and he walks over, sits at the desk. he's going to have to look at a

paper. the glasses are at the desk. the the prop guy said fold the glasses, put them on the desk. right before action, went to the desk, unfolds them, puts them on and then puts them down. because that's what would have happened. >> rose: that's where he would have put them. >> i was, like, whoa. then he walked over. he walked over, that's where he always puts his glasses when he gets up and walks around his office. i said, those little things, that's what you have to remember to make it real. it's that kind of stuff in space all over place when you're working with him. >> rose: do you teach this or is it something that you know. >> you have to go on a set, open the door, you have to do certain things, you have to take a piece of machinery and do something, it's very important to know how to do that. that little task you better know because it's something you have been doing for a long time every day, so you've just got to make sure. what does also happen is when you're doing the scene over and over again, it's like a rehearsal and you get to do it

very easily the way you should, but you really should know that before, too. those kind of small things. when they're opening the building, you can tell they've never opened the door before, the actor. and sometimes you don't want to but you have to try and have all that stuff down because the person would -- and those little details people notice and they might not even know why it doesn't register. the thing that bothers me about sets is that the doors are always very hollow and the floors are hollow and everything, and i wish there was a way -- >> rose: doesn't feel real. doesn't feel real. we shot on location. a real location. >> rose: take a look at this, the first clip, when you return to live with your daughter and her mother. here it is. >> hi! what are you doing here? >> i'm returning him to you. i don't want him anymore. >> what? he's damaged. he has no place else to go. he's been living in my house for

two years. >> oh, dad, i'm so sorry. yeah. but, you know, tony's living in the basement. >> your ex-husband shouldn't live in the basement. that's not the proper way to be divorced. >> okay. i don't know where i'm going to put you. dad, don't go in there, mom's in there. >> you can have him back there, terry, i don't want him anymore. >> what's so much better about being with sharon? >> don't answer that, dad. we went to the metropolitan metn museum of art. >> what did you like. the ancient statutes, the medieval armor, the jewelry, going to the cafe, having an espresso -- >> we had a panini and a dusty, boring coffee. >> then why did you ask. captain jack, what else is so great? >> captain jack. that's what you are. you're a gas leak, we don't see or smell you but you're

killing us all! >> tell me what else you liked about sharon! >> you're the creaturer from the black lagoon! (laughter) >> rose: it's great. obert had to memorize the dialogue. i love the music of families and talking and the music of language. having said that, this woman is the -- the people where we're from makes us who we are. the people we love, where we're from, that's who we are, and staying true to that has made me a better filmmaker that i can be. you must be rooted in who you loved, who you struggled with. she's rooted in this house with these people, and those people become the impediments like in a fairy tail who challenge you but also enable you to become who you're meant to be, but you have to rise to meet it. you have to rise to challenge them and fight them when you need to. without him the whole endeavor doesn't happen.

that's his italian girlfriend. >> rose: take a look at isabella rossellini. >> yes. >> rose: this clip is where joy met tony i was valedictorian in high school. i got into a college in boston, but stayed here because my parents are getting divorced and i needed to help my mom and help my dad with business stuff, accountant. >> maybe your life is on hold right now, hmm? >> that's a nice way of putting it. >> we should sing the musical together. ♪ i stand in line until you think you have the time to spend

with me ♪ >> rose: was there much direction in that scene, directing? >> yes, always. oh, yeah, yeah. yeah. he's there with you always. we have been discussing this that, in a way, it releases you from so many ideas and self-inflicted impressions that you could have in your head because you have your director right there with you. >> rose: releasous to take risks or -- >> no, we actors tend to be very heady and be in our heads, but the things -- it's a privilege to have a director who knows exactly what your character is thinking. he even knows what you're

thinking about the character right there. things are so sharp. he's one of the most sensitive persons i've ever met. >> the this man was known for playing really intense guys like carlos. >> rose: the jackal. yes, a portrait of the very famous terrorist. he's a very beautiful guy, i think the most vulnerable you've ever seen. he has a mug that could be so angry. when you're arguing with robert, you just back off. what was it like for you to sing with jennifer in the hallway? >> it's beautiful. i've never tapped into that emotional territory before. it was beautiful. i know when the snow was coming down -- i didn't know the snow was going to come down. we shoot another song. david trusted his instincts and said no, we should sing this one, something stupid. i knew the song but jennifer didn't know the lyrics. and there's a line that david

had already written, when we're coming on stage, when she asked me, but what if i don't know the words? and i said to her, you will. and that actually applied to the reality of the situation because she didn't know the words, and she was even more vulnerable and more open and it was beautiful, you know. and we were dancing and singing for a number of takes, and it was very much in it for all of us, for people from the crew. it was beautiful. i remember when we finished that scene in the hallway, jennifer was very sick that day. she was very vulnerable. and i remember that when we finished, you were under the stairs. you were in a little pocket where they hid when we were shooting and i thank you for letting me fall in love in that way on cinema. those things really change you, you know. >> rose: what's the soap opera? >> as a storyteller, i said,

what is the psyche of a 10-year-old girl who becomes a 45-year-old woman. lte tell her story. she has a metal garage where welding and trucks are being fixed. i said you are where you come from. her mother is a timid person who has taken refuge in her bedroom and watches soap operas and who takes inspiration from strong women on soap operas. we have icons of soaps, susan lucci and others. to me, that made a great opportunity to make a statement that in the movie jennifer's character is trapped in the soap opera her family is living, she's defined by their world and can't get out. we shot it in '69, '79, '89, each era, and it resonates with many of them. i think russian literature is like a soap opera. the family struggling is like a soap opera to begin with. it's beautiful. >> rose: what becomes the dynamic of the relationship?

>> for the first half to have the movie, she's talking to all these men across her desks. she's in his space and he's in her space. in the second half of the movie they're talking to her across in her space and she has her own desk at the end. she has become the authority. and that was a very powerful story for girls and women to see but also men to see they could be strong enough to be part of that. the man wanted to help her. he did not intend to block her. if you start a business at a kitchen table, charlie, i've watched many endeavors start at the kitchen table in my family's homes and others, and you're going to get an attorney and they know the best, and they help her and did everything he could with the girlfriend to finance it and they were wrong. the patent was wrong. if you make anything, people will try to take it from you. it's relentless in business. >> rose: also telling the story of family, telling the

story of a strong woman, but also telling the story about entrepreneurship and the way business works and the values of business and the corruption of business. >> not the corruption of business. >> rose: well, there is some of that here. >> well, to me, what that means is if you're talking about ethics, i think business has always been a no-holds barred kind of thing. my father published books. if you make anything. there is madele man and all of a sudden they have a lot of power. if they're printing your book, making your plastic molds. i met a woman who made frozen organic foods and the person who packs that, a stranger, controls her item. that's his business. you have to be fierce to succeed and i don't look down on anyone for it. and family is being forgiving and loving through everything. i found that inspiring about robert when he made the

godfather and inspiring about joy as a human being. we sat with the real joy and her father right in front of us. >> rose: are you attracted to the idea of creating a business? >> of course. i love people who create something, and they have a thing. i mean, they have a universe that's supporting people's lives and they're all working it together. it's a system. that's what a movie set is. i love systems like that. a movie set to have me is a big family. we're all in an endeavor together. a navy seal team is a family. they're endeavoring together. people are relying on each other for a larger mission. >> rose: you see her clearer after your divorce than when you were married. >> yeah, and i think that there are some -- he starts to make amends after they got divorced because he needs to mature. he's in the beginning of the film tony is her third child.

>> rose: right. and as long as he stayed in that inner safety nest in the basement he would never see himself. actually, he sees himself clearer after the divorce. i've never been married so i've never gone through a divorce but i cannot imagine how hard and difficult the sense of failure, of seeing so many plans and so many dreams be shattered. i mean, we discussed this in the divorce scene. there was a very emotional scene. it's on a shot in the film but it's very strong. i've never gone through that. i imagine going through that sense of loss, it's as if somebody who you love very much dies, it can be compared to losing someone, and all the dreams and the plans and expectations around it. so i think that he gains perspective on his own life and then he decides to -- >> rose: you don't have to be

married for that to happen, i don't think. >> no, exactly. i have been through heartbreak, but i'm saying, in a divorce, there is something that you sign and there is a commitment that you -- a marriage, i mean, a commitment that you promise things in front of people. so, of course, there is a social context to it as well, so that the implications are larger. i imagine that the feeling of failure must be even more -- right? we discussed this a lot. >> rose: i want to get isabella here. isabella testing joy's business instincts. roll tape. >> you are in the room and there is a gun on the table and the only other person in the room is an adversary in commerce. only one of you can prevail. yet, you have protected your business. do you pick up the gun, joy? >> that's a very strange

question. >> there is nothing strange about this question at all. this is money. do you pick up the gun? >> i pick up the gun. good. i'm going to remember that you said that. when i speak to my lawyer. (laughter) >> rose: what was your reaction to that scene? >> she scared me. (laughter) >> rose: she would pick up the gun. so what happens when joy, this woman who was valedictorian of her class, had a bit of a struggle, she lives in this home, has had a failed marriage and she comes up with the idea of this mop. what happens when she meets neil and from his standpoint?

>> from neil's standpoint? >> rose: yeah, your standpoint. does he see her simply as another opportunity? or is there something that she has that he finds more than simply one more person wanting to sell a product? >> there is something in that scene the way david shoots it when they're in that sort of white demo lab when she's doing the mop and the camera pans up and you see him looking at her and he's constantly observing her. he's a salesman. he's constantly looking for ways to better his company, and i think, in that moment, sort of watching her demonstrate, watching the mop and you sort of see a bit of a light bulb go up and he says we can make 50,000 of these by next week. he's already running and starting to create the ma the my which he can live in. >> rose: and she says yes not

knowing. >> and he says i'm going to take you behind the curtain and show other people who have been successful. >> rose: and the first demonstration is not successful and there is a confrontation. >> i'm in a meeting with our lawyers. what do you think you're doing? >> go home, joy, and watch the numbers roll in on television. 50,000 mops, borrowing and owing every dollar including your home. >> it could have been handled better. i'll let todd have a shot. >> i don't want todd or anyone else to try it. it should be me. >> we let spokesmen and models do the showing. i told you this. >> who showed you the mop, taught you to use it and convinced you it was great after you thought i it was worth less?

>> excuse me. can you give us a second? come with pe. >> rose: >> rose: how did you prepare for this character? >> we have been talking about what it's like to work with david. i have this image, he tills you a time to show up and you sit there and there is this place and you've got a map and he has tools and you have the tools and you excavate with him. from the minute i start talking about i'm doing a play in new york, he has an idea for the movie that he does a jim and a bob, and i feel i'm writing with him. >> rose: do you write with them in mind? >> yes. >> rose: you knew what you wanted. >> i never worked with a latino actor. i liked edgar. i go to bradley backstage at elephant man and talk about what should this guy look like? i like that he and jennifer are

quietly powerful more than the previous movies where they have been very loud. it's different for both of them. it's more mature. >> rose: why do you act now? i mean, you've done everything, won everything, you have all kinds of businesses or a restaurant business and real estate. why do you do it? >> well, i kind of -- i like to do it -- it's sort of -- it clarifies my life when i'm working on something. i would rather be in new york but if i go away, it just clarifies. i have a focus. when i'm not doing something, i'm focused on things but there is more stuff going around i iny life. there can be a way a certain part of it are just distractions. when i say focus on something, it gives me a clarity. >> rose: it demands a plan and demands instruction.

>>es, instruction. i need that. i like that. >> rose: do you think you're better today than you were ten years ago? >> i don't know. i mean, some things i'm better at, i suppose. that's a tricky question. in some ways i am, and others i'm not sure. i mean, i'm struggling with something right now. i don't have it and i'm not going to be happy until i have the direction i'm going in. so, i don't know, i'm just in limbo with this thing. >> rose: how will you -- by working through it and just getting a collar think of the direction that -- getting a clarity of the direction i have to go in this particular project, the writer, the director and so on. >> robert, how do you find working with jennifer when you started with her in silver linings? >> well, jennifer, what was great, when she came in and did

that -- the scene where she does all the technical -- it was true, and then i read it and she did it so well. it's hard to do it and have the authority. i saw how terrific she was, and so that's -- and this movie, especially, she had so much to do, and sometimes she'd get annoyed at him because he would jump in with a line and she would say, let me just finish this. sometimes i get annoyed, too. let me just finish what we've worked on and then -- >> rose: do what we prepared first. >> yeah, what he's giving is good but we just want to at least do this. what was the question? >> rose: jennifer. she's great. she's terrific. she has a magic about her.

>> rose: magic. undefinable magic. >> yeah. >> rose: how did you find her? you know, from day one, it's easy. you know, i just felt like -- >> rose: day one from the first time you acted with her? >> from the first time i talked to her on the phone. had she shot the first hunger games? yeah, she had shot it. she was on set and right away, oh, this person is so alive and open and free and out of her head and in her body. when she showed up the first day, everybody was, like, whoa, unbelievable. >> how would you define the whoa? what was the whoa? >> instinctual. i've always said this, she reminds me of bob a lot. they're similar actors. highly intelligent, sees everything but at the same time can be utterly instinctual. >> rose: congratulations. thank you, charlie. s for having us. , charlie. >> rose: "joy" opens christmas

day. back in a moment. stay with us. >> rose: you may not know his name but certainly know his work. his name is bang bang and one of the world's most sought-after tattoo artists. he etched a sanskrit phrase on to rihanna's hip. now he is the go-to or celebrities, athletes andthers, katy perry and adele have all become his living canvasses. here's a look at some of his work. >> nobody who ever hears my name forgets it. it started as a commitment to myself to be a tattoo artist when i was 18. i decided i loved it and didn't want to do anything else. so i tattooed guns on both sides of my neck. throughout my career, i've had a lot of experiences and there hasn't been a way for me to adequately explain to people how these experiences molded my career and life. especially with celebrities -- bieber, rihanna, katy perry,

rita -- those tattoos come for image and the image is trend setting, bridging tattoo and fashion. >> rose: he written a book commemorating his ten-year career, "bang bang my life in ink " . pleased to have him here the first time. >> thanks for having me. >> rose: a lot to talk about discovering something you know about. how did you get started? >> kind of a fluke. i had gotten kicked out of high school a couple of times, and i wound up -- >> rose: you weren't paying attention or what? >> i went to boys school in connecticut ct. got the boot a couple of times. went back to public school. didn't do well. i was 18 years old in 12t 12th great working at red lobster. i wanted tattoos, couldn't afford them. i had the ability to create art and the desire to be tattooed. i connected the dots and said i'm going to buy a tattoo kit which disclaimer is not the way the teachers saw the a tattoo,

but that's the road i went. i fell in love with it. i haven't found anything i love nearly as well. >> rose: how long was it between wanting to tattoo yourself and wanting to tattoo someone else? >> the same day. yeah, by the time that kit came in the mail, i was tattooing myself, cousins, friends, anybody what wanted a permanent mistake. >> rose: how did it go -- how long ago? >> 1 years now. >> rose: has it changed much? yeah, tattooing changed a lot. there is still a lot of stigmas on tattooing and i'm not sure if people really kind of label it as fine art, but, my opinion, it's the most difficult medium in the world. it's living canvas. >> rose: difficult for you? yes, even more difficult than sculpting marble. >> rose: because? unlou i can a painting where you can step away and let that dry and layer and kind of, like, you know literally sculpt your image, tattooing, we can

actually harm you. so we only get so many attempts at what we're trying to do in a certain area. we're also hurting you so we have to move through it very quickly. so a painting that might take months and months we have hours to create it in. >> rose: i assume they choose everything they want you to tattoo? >> sometimes. >> rose: and be where they want it? >> yeah. i mean, it's a collaborative process. so i say often clients don't design tattoos for a living but i do. so they trust me to design them a great tattoo. for me we work out the subject. why they want to be tattooed, how much area and i try to feel it out like design, i'm trying to design your body. >> rose: and after you do that, is the rate of enthusiasm for it pretty high in. >> oh, yeah, man. people love their tattoos. >> rose: what is that about? it's fulfilling to see -- well, there is like -- people feel differently on their

inside. it's tilt to, like, show that -- it's difficult to show that on your exterior other than a tattoo, how you dress, decorate yourself, carry yourself, so it's a way to affirm who you are visually. it's a form of decoration, style and fashion.

>> i'm always competing with my last work. the most difficult previously, i'm always competing on that, anything else new, i'm competing with myself to do a better job. people expect a lot of me. i'm expecting more from myself. >> rose: almost everybody who comes to you for a tattoo now, almost 90 pars of them are under 25? >> no, we have such a huge range. it's 18-year-olds to grandmothers and grandfathers getting the first tattoo. >> rose: and what the percentage of male-female

breakdown. >> 70% female clientele. >> rose: that's big. that's not indicative of my industry. it's instinctive of my brand and what we have been trying to do. >> rose: you mentioned it several times, what was your brand? >> my brand is we're a group of individuals that are really hard working and enthusiastic to tattoo people. we understand it's a service industry and we're appreciative of our position to do that service on people. we have amazing clientele. i know there is a bet of industry standard in tattooing that if someone wants something small around simple from a great artist they may turn their nose to it and cold sowrld that idea. we're just happy to tattoo. we love it. we want to make tattoos for people whether it's the most difficult thing we could make or if it's something simple. we can pull out inspiration for ourselves. like, how am i going to design this simple tattoo perfectly for this person.

that part is how we stay inspired and keep doing it. it's my managers come from a service industry in new york city and five-star hotels and the assistance are n.y. students. everybody in my career is enthusiastic about this job. >> rose: what can go wrong? i would say often what can go wrong is the clientele-to-artist relationship. we meet with every client before we tattoo and do consultations. sometimes people want to really direct their artist into a bad tattoo and we don't really let them do that. >> rose: a bad tattoo is... something that's not working, something that's not going to age well, something that's not going to age gracefully or look appealing. our job as an artist is to make sure the visual is amazing and the job for the client is to make sure they have meaning. if someone has something meaningful, trying to design the image but are driving it off the

cliff, that's when we stop it. >> rose: is it regulated by anybody? >> by the new york city health department. there is not a ton of regulation on it. i've tattooed in new york city a decade and seen the health departments one time. in the dozens of stores i've seen throughout new york city, it's not something they regulate like restaurants and delis, but it's the same people inspecting. i'm looking forward to the day i get to have input and sit down with some of these people and try to regulate it. >> rose: you would like more regulation. >> yeah, i would. >> rose: you're among the best or the best. you want to make sure that nobody -- >> i think tattoo artists who take it seriously deserve a lot of respect and some people doing tattoos are in hat stores and scarf shops, you know, they don't belong doing topical surgery. so i think that, yeah, there is not another industry i could think of that is so medically oriented that's not regulated.

so tattooing is kind of the wild west. >> rose: tell me about rihanna. >> she's amazing. an amazing friend. so much that people don't see that she doesn't even care that makes her a really incredible friend. >> rose: like what? anytime i've called her or needed her, she's been right there. she shows up on my birthday. she's the only person to give me a cake on my 30th birthday. i thought, i'm a grown up, i'm not a kid anymore, and to my store comes a cake from her. >> rose: when did you meet her? >> ten years ago when i was tattooing on sixth avenue, incomes a singer. i don't know who's who. i'm from austin, i don't know who celebrities are because i'm in my little world of tattooing and playing with my children. so i just met a group of beautiful women and i'm, like, who's getting the tattoo. she stepped forward. i said, great, what do you want

to get? we just clicked and got along. >> rose: what did she get? she wanted to get a prayer. it was on a necklace. her best friend melissa also wanted it. we got along very well. >> rose:. >> rose: how much do you do in europe? >> not a lot. i'm great friends with a soccer player who wants a tattoo, so i'll see him soon. but i'm interested in london, one of my favorite cities, so i would like to be there more. >> rose: would you go to katy perry, rihanna? you would go where they are? >> yes, i i went to scandinavia with katy perry and to the west coast prior to that. but, yeah, when they call, i'm there. >> rose: what about adele? she's wonderful. i only tattooed her once. >> rose: she has the number 5 on the inside of one of her

fingers. >> she did. you're the first to ask about it. i thought people didn't catch it. >> rose: tell me about it. i don't know what it's for. it's the most private tatoo. i didn't want to pry. we tucked it in there so people wouldn't catch it. she has paradise and someone's name. we didn't photograph her son's name because no one had known it. it was very private. the 5 was even more private. you're the first person to ask me about that. >> rose: what about lebron? he's my here o. i grew up loving michael jordan. they're great basketball players. >> rose: how does it feel to be the artist for him? how did you get to be the artist for him? >> like everybody else, i got a call. i got a call at 8:00 p.m. one night. >> rose: lebron said, someone told me you're the best. >> my manager said lebron

wants to get tattooed, can you come tomorrow? i said, yeah. >> rose: is this where he wanted his daughter on his back? >> yeah. i'm not sure anybody's seen it and don't know if anyone's seen her yet. he wanted it to be private. >> rose: america's tattoo industry stats from pew research center, $2.3 billion annual revenue of the tattoo industry, 15,000 tattoo parlors, 220 million americans have the too, 23% of women have tattoo. persons of men who have a tattoo is 19. percentage of 18 and 25-year-olds who have a tattoo is 36. so and that gives a real interesting look at who's doing it and who isn't. and your goal is simply to get better? >> yeah, i mean, my original goals from tattooing are to be at the top of those lists, of that 15,000 tattoo parlors, i'm going to be number one.

>> rose: how do you measure number one? >> it's internally. your expectations of what being the best is. so we set those expectations for ourselves, and we set them really, really high. i have a team of tattoo artists who are the best in the world. i'm not reserved in saying my crew is the best tattoo shop in the world. >> rose: thank you. pleasure to have you. >> i'll see you for your tattoo. >> rose: we won't tell them, will we? >> no, we'll keep it private. >> rose: a rose or something. something classy nu th classy. >> rose: the book is "bang bang: my life in ink " . thank you for joining us. see you next time. for more about this program and earlier episodes, visit us online at pbs.org and charlierose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications

captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by:

♪ >> announcer: this is "nightly business report," with tyler mathisen and sue herera. stocks plunge. the dow falls more than 250 points, and there's one very big reason why. taken into custody. the poster boy for hiking drug prices. martin shkreli arrested today for securities fraud. ding dong. server is calling. the private equity firm takes a big stake in one of the most recognizable cosmetics companies in the world. all that and more tonight on "nightly business report" for thursday december 17th. good evening, everyone and welcome. and like that, the gains of yesterday are gone. stocks sank today snapping a three-day win streak and the reason why is a familiar one. falling oil prices. that dragged down energy shares li