>> rose: funding for charlie rose is provided by the following: captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: rem koolhaas is here, is he one of the most influential architects at work today. of course you knew that. he is also an author. theer rest and professor at harvard. he was awarded the prits ger architecture prize in 2 thousand, 16 years ago am some of his most notable projects include the cctv headquarters in

beijing, the seattle central library and casa demusico in portugal. the two major buildings have been opened in the last year, are the garage museum of contemporary ard in moss could you and the prada in millan. mi pleased to have rem koolhaas back at this table. welcome. >> hi. >> rose: we missed out, two years ago, when-- or year and a half ago when you were at the, in venice. it continues to be a great life for you. >> a great life, yeah. >> rose: a great life. >> it's an amazing life because it really enables me to be in places in the world when things are really radically changes. and when there is a need to articulate, a particular ambition. or whether for other reasons there is a need to intervene in a kind of situation which is more or less urgent. so it is really a great sequence

of opportunity. >> rose: and i mean because what you do and what you-- i mean you help define the time we're in or what we're missing, even. >> yes. but i see my role to some extent more as a kind of reporter who is simply alert and who is describing the changes and kind of basically as you described it, change you will also find the opportunities where to intervene. so in that sense, i don't have the kind of sense of forming the time but really being part of it and being part of that moment in time when things are changing from one condition to another. >> rose: in fact, you began life as a writer, didn't you? >> as a journalist. yeah. as been interviewer. >> rose: you mean i have hope as an architect, maybe? >> you could, uh-huh. >> rose: but at 71 you are

going strong. you just mentioned the two big projects you had this year. prada and the garage. >> well, maybe i go strong but of course i'm part of a large organization, our office, and i think i could never do what i do. we could never do what we do without our collaborator. and we decided the average age of the office may be 32. so maybe i am getting older but there is this really-- . >> rose: but at the same time like children, you have people who come to work with you and then go off and do great things on their own. right? ingals is an example. >> i enabled many people to emancipate themselves from our environment. >> rose: your early could labbitier peter iceman said of you recently, i love rem, i think it's very important to have lived in the time of rem.

like to have lived in the time of kaperzia. how do you-- i mean you are a legend. >> basically, i am dutch. and that means that i am incapable of dealing with those questions. >> rose: the dutch can't handle praise. >> they cannot handle praise. and they cannot perceive celebrity. and therefore they are kind of a safe haven for that kind of speculation. >> rose: so in part you keep your base and-- is in rotterdam, because it keeps your feet on the ground. >> which is a city which is completely immune to who we are. and completely indifferent to who we are. so we live a luxurious life of indifference. >> rose: of indifference. >> well, indifferent environment. and therefore we are totally free. >> rose: someone else though said and i think this was an

architecture critic said you remain a first rate provocateur. and you do. you have been that all your life. >> i don't know whether that is an issue of star shine or more-- . >> rose: i don't think so nor you. >> i think it's not really prove kaition. >> rose: i think it's dna. >> it's partly dna but it's also an intellectual interest to form late in the sharpest possible way what the issues are. and that enables me, you know, to see where issues are occurring, what the issues are and to name them. and i think that's particularly to name them is of course going to perceive this prove kaition because it may not always be that the world is ready to do the draw the same conclusion. >> rose: when some people suggest that you work more like a theorist or concept all artist

than an architect, you say yes, that's right? >> i would say we operate in a very wide range of things. >> rose: the world of ideas is where you start. >> yes, but i think at the same time, you see that in the world there are fewer and fewer professions retain their previous identity. and that many streams are getting blurred. and i'm benefiting from that blur. and being able to shall-- . >> rose: what do you mean, benefiting from the blur. >> i'm benefiting from the way in which-- no, i'm benefiting from the fact that currently people are willing not only to consider a predesign-- predefined profession or predefined territory or predefined role but they are willing to experiment and see how things can be combined or redefined or reinvented. >> that is what you have done all of your life. how can i redefine the way we

think of space. how can i redefine the way we think of old and new. how do i think about redefining the relationship between urban and rural. >> but i'm kind of really lucky to live at this time because it is not me who is into redefinition but it's the time itself that is kind of redefining all those conditions constantly. >> but you've also resisted the idea of a singular aesthetic. >> i've tried to. >> rose: with some would argue that is what frank has done and zaha has done, they have a single aesthetic. you may disagree with that but some may say that, you resist that, even allowing anybody to think that. >> we love cam flawj an we are not always interested to kind of assert our own identity in every condition. and we think that architecture is the kind of interesting combination of imposition and

yielding. >> rose: imposition. >> and yielding. you yield to an environment. you yield to a context. you also impose but anyway you also absorb givens from it or you absorb kind of needs that exist. so for that reason i think there is maybe a kind of specialty that means that we need to be different in every case because every case is different. >> rose: if i went to beijing with a group of architects, architects who know the history of ak tech ture, who know the identification of artist, and i showed them cctv, will they say that's koolhaas. i know that's koolhaas. i promise you that is koolhaas. >> at this point, probably. >> rose: but i mean before everybody knew it was such a popular and identitiable building and it was yours? rose: well wa, do youry. think? >> i think-- . >> rose: do you think there is

something in that building other than the fact that it is so different would define it. >> it's maybe, you know, it was a huge challenge. and therefore i basically tried to accept every part of the challenge. and so therefore it is a building that has not only one dimension, it's not only a shape but it's also an organization. it's also a kind of feat of engineering. it's also-- it's also an identity that is not stable. it's also a building that looks completely different from every side. so it ask very complex entity and perhaps people would recognize that complexity as a characteristic in the end. >> rose: how did you win that commission? >> it was very interesting. the competition was run by a

very young chinese lady who studied international law in oxford, 35 years old, who called me one day and say we want to do a competition for the project. we will in-- invite five four owners, and five chinese. two europeans, two americans and one japanese. it was very-- and we want it to be completely honest process. and speaking to her, i got a kind of confidence that at least it was go there was real intelligence there. and so there was a jury. the jury selected us and then there was an interesting period when the issue became how to convince the government and the different parties in government that this was the right step. and that was kind of also orchestrated by her in terms of

meetings with politicians kind of showing the project, talking to them personally sometimes in their holy day. i stayed for a long time in between to do it. but slowly but surely we were really able to convince people. >> what's interesting too is that recently xi jinping said recently we have too many weird buildings. >> in a way, it's very rare for politicians to talk about architecture. so in a sense i found it encouraging. >> rose: francois mitter and. >> he was the previous one. and so yes, and of course we became associated with a kind of weird building kind of syndrome. >> rose: weird building syndrome. >> and of course, the building is an original building but also very serious building. and i can say in confidence that recently cctv was visited by one

of the chinese ministers who came to the conclusion that it was very sincere contribution to china. >> wow. >> so the weird stigma has been taken away officially. >> rose: and a contribution to china. >> so that's a good thing, i think. >> rose: what's interesting and you and i talked about this right before we started to turn the cameras on. it is-- you won that competition. five other people lost. >> uh-huh. >> rose. >> nine other people. >> rose: they cared deeply. though thought about it. they listened, they pushed and shoved and imagined and reimagined. >> some of them were my friends, or are my friends. and some of the them were incredibly amazing and excite prog jects also. >> rose: i tell you what my dream is is to put together and have an exhibition from the best architects in the world all the projects that didn't get sought

out. because it's not a perfect process that wins or loses, you know. it has to do with a range of human emotions, and experience, and education, and, you know, politics. all that. and so this didn't-- wouldn't it be great, just see all the buildings that we never saw. the only person that ever saw them was the architect. >> it is and ambiguous issue because of course it's interesting to compete, per se. and i think that there is a compelling argument that actually by competing, you get the best. it is also certainly the case that some of our most imaginative kind of buildings were not able to convince people at the right moment. and you certainly sense that the things we did ten years ago might be accepted today. so there is also an inherent sadness in the whole thing.

but i think by being a writer, i was able to kind of reduce the sadness and still use or convey the contents or the meank of certain things than to simply building. i think it's very important as an architect that actually building something so rare that you also develop forms of communication or forms of presentation but it's an exhibition, a book or other kind of media or even kind of film, to make sure that things don't simply disappear. >> rose: are you happiest writing or building. >> designing or-- teaching. >> it's two completely different kind of forms of happiness. in the first case, it is the happiness over team work. and collaboration. and i can say that i worked with

people together and had the most stimulating and kind of amazing interest that i never had on my own. but simply through the construction of collaboration, you are pushed in a different direction. so that is really a wonderful feeling. at the same time, it is kind of really wonderful to be like a monk in a cell. and to have a feeling that you actually are capturing reality or a new reality or an insight. >> in the world of ideas. >> in the world of ideas or the world of observation. >> but you think of you more as an observational character or a innovative character? >> well, i am betting or. i try to be-- i try to be both. and i think it's also to be both. basically i'm an analytical person but in our place of

america, the analysis is very often what triggers the innovation or the invention. so you cannot say i'm either this or national that. it's kind of really analysis. it's the basis for new thinking. >> here are some things that you have said that you admitted that you are somewhere between bored and irritated by the current course of architecture. irritated and board. >> okay. maybe i take the last thing back >> not the first one. >> more irritated. >> certainly irritated but not necessarily board, fair enough? >> but you also said that the arrange tech ture today is forcing people to be extravagant even if they do not want to or need to. that is to satisfy some.

>> i think-- client? >> the important thing is that kind of until let's' say the 06see or even part of the '70s, we were typically used and connected to kind of public-- so in a subtle way we were, we could be complacent or we could be convinced that we were actually serving kind of the general cause. and i think since the enormous escalation of the market economy, we are kind of working more and more with the private individual. and we've got more and more people with a lot of money. >> and so for that reason alone, we are no longer-- we are not playing the same role. we are playing a totally different role. and in that different and new role, we sometimes have to build icons because that is important to a particular brand or we have

to build a building that nobody else has seen kind of before because that is the source of pride. so basically the ambitions have really radically changed kind of simply through the effect of the market economy. >> rose: do you also embrace the idea of presser vacation as show helping to find a new relationship with architecture? >> well, i think-- . >> it is almost like a refuge there is such an expectation that we do of extravagant things that actually it is very nice to discover a supposedly more modest terrain where we can intervene with text and where if we add something we add only almost like furniture, a few new

things. so for me it's become very interesting in that sense. and also if you work on presser vacation, you discover for instance that in terms of dimensions or in terms of scale or in the past things were possible that are no longer possible. so it's also kind of a rational step simply because for instance indicate of prada foundation, we had to kind of huge, really enormous that became a key part of the project but that from scratch we could never have done. in the case of the garage there is a kind of generosity of soviet architecture that had to serve the people. so basically that generosity, we were able to capture and to give a new piece of life. >> rose: we'll talk about both of those buildings later. but-- both of those museums. but were you surprised as you

delved into it, at soviet architecture. >> the reason i became an architect, i came to moss cow for the first time in-- in 67y. i was unaware of the kind of history of soviet architecture. i was one aware of the avant-garde of the 20see and i became aware of kind of a really radical interpretation of architecture, constructivism that was related to milavich, that really reinvented daily life from scratch. and so therefore from the beginning i was less interested in form but in the role of architecture in helping to define daily life, that really triggered me. and at the time i was also a script writer so it was a discovery that architecture is actually also a form of script writing that made it possible.

>> rose: a form of script writing. >> yeah because an architect says okay, this is a living room, kind of here is the stair case. and there is the kitchen. so politically you actually describe a scene or you describe a relationship. >> yeah. >> so that made it kind of very easy. but presser vacation and modernist architecture are entwined. >> sometimes modernist-- i mean the really interesting thing for me about presser vacation, we had previously always thought that the world is divided in architecture, and presser vacation. >> you try to-- architect. but when i looked into the history of presser vacation, i actually discovered that presser vacation was part and parcel of the whole process of modernization. it was invented just after the french revolution. presser vacation. >> and basically is makes per

spect sense. because at the moment you restore everything, or change everything, you also have to decide what to keep. so presser vacation is in a way a form of selection and feultly you have to understand this part of modernization is itself. when we discover that, then it became really very creative territory. >> rose: what does conventional beauty mean to you? >> unfortunately, there also in dutch. >> rose: oh no. >> it is very difficult to really talk about conventional kind of beauty. what we prefer or what we are more comfortable with is to discover the beauty of o, for instance, or the beauty of an artificial landscape, or the beauty of a system that has wind moch and kind of turns a lake

into a land. in all of those steps there is also really an aesthetic, aesthetic of architect actuality and aesthetic of the modern. and so yes, there are maybe moments that we try to be addressing the shoof beauty, for instance in the prada foundation, we covered a kind of small tower if gold leaf, simply as a kind of form of recognition, with the explicit intention to create beauty. but otherwise for me beauty is, you know, the combination of imagination is and rational organization. >> rose: imagination and rational organization. >> rational organization. >> rose: do you have an ordered mind?

>> i can be very ordered. but i can also be chaotic when i want to. >> the reason i ask that is that sometimes, take musicians who will tell me that in order for them to be, they have to understand the order of music in order to be creative about music. that there has to be. >> a discipline. >> uh-huh. >> a discipline. and a sense of order and the way things are in order to be able and why in order to be able to create something that is fresh. >> of course, architecture at least in many regimes to bin with the regime of gravity. gravity is very, very strong and cannot be reversed, cannot be reinvented, so everything we do, we do within that kind of regime. so in that sense, we also have

to look within the regime of acoustics. within the regime, so i think all arc teblghts have to be disciplined but also have to know the importance of escaping from the dition plin. >> rose: are you ever dissatisfied with a building or are you like a film-- satisfied with a building or like a filmmaker who says to me i always see something else i could have done. >> actually, i-- the moiment are you building, my engagement is kind of really very deep and profound. but when things are over and open, i can let it go. and almost enjoy it as an outsider. >> really? >> yeah. >> without almost knowing what might have been. >> yeah. and i'm not kind of constantly going, oh my god, that could have been. i let it loose. >> you don't have time for that. >> no, no time it is also a kind of mentality. i was saying this morning, i'm a

realist. i'm able to enjoy reality. and so therefore sometimes you know, in the best cases, our buildings become our reality. >> rose: does that mean you're also efficient? >> efficient when i have to be in order to be inefficient when i-- . >> rose: want to be. >> efficient when you have to be in order to be inefficient when you need to be. >> in a hurry to have time when you want to. >> rose: okay. take a look at this. this-- show the building, the prada building. describe this to me. what am i looking at? >> you are looking-- . >> rose: this is old space. >> you are looking at the industrial complex that kind of basically has a series of elements. in the factory element, we are-- inside that compound we're building two new things. one you cannot see here because it's a box. the secretary one, you can see there, emerging which is a tower

by introduces kind of vertical spaces in these otherwise completely horizontal entity. and in order to create both excitement, beauty and a kind of exceptional moiment, we clad this small tower in gold which actually turns out to be a really efficient decision because gold is so reflective, that it its aura perm yeets the entire space. and if you are close to t you look like a glow. >> rose: but you have said you can't really tell if are you in an old building or a new one wants. >> yeah, it is is very simp toll make contrast which we created, kind of seemless situation that you never quite sure where you are. >> rose: but at the same time you wanted to make this a single entity. >> a single complex, yeah.

a single entity, complex where you are constantly changing spaces, sometimes very narrow, sometimes expanding, sometimeses horizontal. so it's a sequence of spaition experiences. >> rose: but does this present new opportunities for displaying art? >> i think it does. simply because it is not betting on only one or two special conditions. but we were able to do is kind of really vary the kind of situation. so for instance one sequence of rooms deliberately starts with very small rooms and kind of every next room is bigger. so and that sequence goes on for maybe seven or eight rooms. so although the nature of the building is the same, each painting or each sculpture looks completely different in each of the spaces.

>> rose: take a look at this. this is the next slide. tell me what i am seeing. >> what you are seeing here, and then this was kind of really the original on the part of prada, that is their opening exhibition. an exhibition about roman scrupt ture that insisted what was interesting about the roman scument ture is that they all kobeed-- copied greek examples. and greek examples are gone so the roman sculpt teurlal art is the art of copying. so here we, there were able to assemble many copies of the same sculpture. what they showed is the strong qualities of lack of originality, of kind of a again erich approach. but what you also see is kind of basically the filter between your insight of new building which you see that are you-- is defined by existing building, and this is part of this kind of

relationship between old and new where you never quite sure what they are and-- let me see the next slide quickly. >> and then again this is the part of prada, residence mentality. they are not about only one thing but they are about the diversity of things. and so what they did in the same set of the exhibition, when it was over, they asked the ballet make tore do ballet in the same pace. -- space, so it was an extremely moving moment, what was immobile became alive literally. >> rose: now we go to the garage in mosco-w. how did this come b this was a competition. >> not a competition. >> not at all. >> no. dasha married to romanovich.

>> who is a kind of very independent kind of person, came to us and simply asked us to kind of work with her on the replacement of the garage. the garage was a building where, of an soviet architecture of the 20see. it had been abandoned. and with her we looked for this kind of opportunity and found a completely ruined restaurant of the '60s. and came to the conclusion that actually we could con verse it into a museum space. >> rose: this is near gorky park. >> within, inside gorky park. and gorky park at the same time was being completely renovated and reimagined. so it is part of the a

being becomes in ruin is also an interesting historical question. so rather than making everything new, we clad the building in a skin of polly carbon eight which is really translose ent. >> rose: what is that. >> it is a form of plastic that actually has a beautiful effect, it's reflective but also translose ent. and it kreetses an ak stract version of what you see outside. so if you are inside, you are aware that you are in a park but you done see the detail of the park. so you can focus on what is inside but still are you aware of the entire environment. >> rose: next slide. now look at this. >> so this is what i meant or what we meant with preserving decay. in that kind of building there

was a soviet mural that represented one of the seasons. and which in general kind of conveyed happy sense of communal life. and it was kind of not entirely in tact any more. you see the kind of patches of brick. so rather than can restore it in its entirety, we left it like that so that for all to see. but the what the building had gone through. >> rose: remembering this is the place that inspired you to be an architect. >> moss could you d-- moscow. i feel really privilege to have witnessed over such a long time how russia constantly changes. >> rose: and how would you characterize it today? in terms of its energy, in terms of its, you know, in terms of

its outlook. >> i think that if you look at the kind of population, first of all, the educational system in russia has always been on a very high level. and so russia, in general, russians are very educated, very intelligent, very inclined to mathematics. so that already gives you kind of wonderful level of-- . >> rose: is it different than china? >> it's much more-- i would say that of course a much longer and interrupted tradition of imagination and creativity. >> rose: in moss disz cow. >> russians read. and they read the classics and the classics are very vivid. >> rose: they write and read the classics. so you know, all of that, of

course, gives the kind of density and the depth, regardless. and i would say right now the younger generation is extremely imaginative and extremely courageous. >> rose: there is a kind of excitement there, in a sense. in an interesting way, this again, are you taking an existing structure and putting a new coat on it, polly carbon eight coat and that kind of thing. having something to work with in some ways alleviates the pressure to be so totally spectacularly new. >> yeah. that is the wonderful discovery that we made by embracing presser vacation, by looking at presser vacation. and it also allows you then to focus on what is essentially needs to be changed or what needs to be-- . >> rose: you have noted that decision makers in countries like china tend to be young and

hence more likely to have an appetite for risk. true in russia too? >> it's difficult to say, you know. i think there is a young generation with an enormous appetite for risk, i would say. >> rose: right, yeah. and a lot of money too. >> this was not particularly a-- . >> rose: it was not. >> no. and it is also kind of-- it enables us to move out of the association with luxury and with extravagance. >> rose: okay, let's go quickly to the cctv. we talked about that. so here, the there it is, look at it, you can see it, wherever i ever-- every hotel, there it is. just tell us what went floo the imagination that created that structure.

and what dictated it? >> of course, nothing really dictated it. but it worked for a media company before. >> rose: media company. >> media company, that is what it is. it is a combination of studios, almost a complete-- i think its program is most similar to, you could say, universal city hollywood. and when we worked for universal, we discovered that in a creative company, there is a tendency of each part to isolate itself vees a vee all the other parts. and to not feel part of a kind of single hull. so what we wanted to do here is to create, kind of look like organization where each part and each member of the organization was constantly aware and confronted with all the other ones. so that explains the look. and the kind of continuity of the building.

that explains the continue out of the loop and the byproduct of that is that the building looks completely different from every angle. >> indeed it does. >> so sometimes it looks like a circle. sometimes it looks like a jet. sometimes, and for us that was kind of really crucial to inject in a city delicate with symmetrical, and stable buildings, an identity that would change kind of with your own movement through the city. >> rose: where do you put this in the pantheon of things you have done? >> i think it's very-- amazing thing to be the-- one of the authors of. >> rose: yes, indeed. i was trying to push you into something beyond that. that is about as much as i am going to get from you, isn't it. i'm sort of pleased to be one of

the authors. smart technology. takes a look at this slide. >> technology has changed architecture. and you say is just to go right to it, it's invaded our privacy like we would never have imagined. >> yeah. >> rose: and you're not happy about that. >> two things. basically we did-- in ven ises. and we chose as one of the major exhibitions, an exhibition called elements of architecture. and people were in a way horrified in part that we would look at such simple things as the doors, floors, windows. and we looked at each of these elements both in different closures but also through time. and kind of basically when we were systemic about that, we realized that in many of those elements, digital culture and

digital-- had kind of really infiltrated those or immersed with those elements. and that therefore, many of the elements of architecture changed their nature in a pretty das trick way, and were becoming either interactive or were constantly monitoring users or inhabitants. >> rose: but you have said this was a potentially sinnister dimension to smart technology. >> well, yes,. >> you know, as a writer, you use rhetoric. and sometimes it's a bit heavy to be confronted with your own rhetoric. and so i would, let's say, maybe lower the alert. maybe it's not a red alert or orange alert but maybe it is simply an observation that this

is-- this lady is on the toilet and basically each event on it st recorded. >> rose: let me read it to you. this is amazing to me. this is toto, intelligent toilet 2 features a urine sample catcher that can measure glucose levels use useful for diabetics, urine temperature, hormone levels for women trying to conceive, the watch that gathers data and communicates with the users computer by wi fi compiling a health report. i am okay with that. >> are you okay with that. >> rose: yeah. >> with a frequent see that toilets imply? >> rose: i mean i'm okay with anything. >> so four times a day? >> rose: i'm okay-- i will tell you more why i'm okay with that. i mean i realize, i understand all the dimensions of show

people's medical information ought to be private, and other people shouldn't have access to it. because it violates their rights of privacy. i also believe so strongly, though, that we now have sensors and devices that can alert us to our health. >> yeah. >> rose: that's really significant. and that would be much healthier if we had a greater sense of how our body was functioning. >> you are totally right. and in that sense, i'm often in a difficult position. so it's definitely not that we want to warn against these technologies per se. but that we want to alert the kind of world that if you add all of them kind of together, there is perhaps an overdose of or an element of surveillance. and it is like sitting in a car and basically if you want to drive without a safety belt, you

are-- the car in a way-- with the intentions. and so in a sense, yes, it is a smart thing. yes, it is a good thing. and yes you are warned against the potential danger. but on the other hand, maybe you want to run that potential danger. >> it's also the fact that in a digital world, it's almost like nothing is sacred. >> nothing is sacred. and i think we need to really be aware of what we are giving away. >> i agree. >> and then that was basically the kind of reason for this rhetoric. but actually, we are far from-- . >> rose: this is one more case where you are being a provocateur. >> but also maybe of being a reporter. because i'm totally fascinated with this world and i really would like to and i'm trying desperately to kind of work within that world. and for that world to see whether there are also kind of dimensions of using it that in our view are providing kind of a

more urge ent or more comprehensive conditions. this is kind of preparer of the country side, a hundred years ago. >> rose: yeah. >> you see kind of three that are clearly within a kind of various structured and ordered society where the norms are kind of shared. and that live in an environment that have always known their lives. >> rose: the point here is what? >> the point is both the civility rules and degree of community that is seemingly immutable. now you look a hundred years later, here. you are in the same place. you see three thai ladies kind of in jeans that are in switzerland, not because they want to, but because they are a cheap labor force that maintain the second homes of affluent people in switsz land. so previously you had to

authentic evidence of the, now you have a kind of imported layer. and that changes incredibly the kind of radical and that is what we have been exploring. >> rose: part of your point was to say that mainstream architecture had essentially ignored the issues and trends affecting less pop lated rural areas. >> basically the cliche is everyone is moving to the city. so we focused on the city. we looked at the nature of the city. but we never looked at the kind of territory that was feaked by everybody moving to the city. and therefore we never discovered that the country side is also changing and maybe changing more radically than could be. it is more or less stable, its city, but the countryside is really changing. now for our digital culture,

certain implements and certain processes and certain accommodation is needed that simply turns the countryside in the back of house of our digital urban culture. >> rose: next slide. this is big data. these are big data farms. >> so farming has become in itself perhaps the most digitized activity that we know. >> rose: because it can tell you about all kinds of things like climate. >> like climate. >> rose: seeds and everything else. >> like seelds but it also enables the farm tore have a position that never was possible. and in a way, more and more the computer screen has become the field itself it is kind of complete territory. >> rose: but it is also becoming a kalt list for change-- a cat list for change, for people in africa. >> absolutely. >> rose: in a significant way. they can do things that they

could not do before. including their own economic welfare. >> yup. >> rose: and. >> so in that sense, that transformation, i would say, in africa, i should say case in point, is a positive and welcome kind of transformation. so this is one area where we are not moaning but we are actually kind of really exploring furtd. but here you see in nevada near reno. >> rose: a data farm. >> a data farm. and a complex of data farms. and that you know, suggest a kind of urban condition. but if you look at each of these entities you kind of realize that they are serving, they're serving the dij tal culture. but without necessarily inhabitants. so what you see is enormous complexes.

complexes together with kind of space between them. with barely a population. >> rose: an extra human civilization, you see. >> a post human civilization or at least an inkling of what our world is going to generate. >> rose: an urbanization without people. >> exactly. uninhabited urbanization. and that is, an incredibly exciting territory because you reallyk you see it, because there are no people, the entire environment is wide. for people we make very expensive, careful spaces. but now you can exploit and celebrate even the absence of people. >> rose: take a look. i will see finally the clip from

a documentary made by your son tomas, it's called rem, this is a documentary that is going to come out, when will this be fin unked? >> any time this year. i think the point of the film is not to look at me or talk about me it is really to convey the experience of the building. >> rose: okay. roll tape, here is a portion of this. within i felt it was really crucial at least for me to find another way of being an architect. we are always challenged by programming. but it is a very abstract term. i think it's much better to say that we are challenged by people's needs.

is the real incentive. s. >> rose: react to what you just said. >> to you come away with is kind of a sense of engagement, but not with power, necessarily, not with with spectacle. but an engagement with trying to

really address needs in a almost old-fashioned way. and to kind of address the interest of people who are-- these things. so in that sense, i think you will maybe come away, i hope you come a away with a sense that it's not kind of huge egos that define architects and architecture, but that it's kind of remains sometimes efficient, sometimes exciting, and sometimes deep way of engaging with the world. >> thank you for coming a pleasure to see you. >> thai, thank you, for me too. >> rose: rem koolhaas for the hour. thank you for joining us. see you next time. >> for more about this program and earlier episodes visit us online at pbs.org and charlie rose.com.

captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org >> rose: on the next charlie rose, a look at the oscar

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a kqed television production. like old fisherman's wharf. reminds me of old san francisco. like jean val jean. >> theeries and cholesterol and -- calories and cholesterol and heart attack. >> like an adventure. >> it remind me of oatmeal with a touch of wet dog. >> i did inhale it.