welcome to the program. we begin this evening with politics and the upcoming iowa caucuses and we start with hugh hewitt. >> yup, the seven or eight of them get together backstage and they make a little deal like the tennis people used to do the exhibitions where they split the pot, whoever won. and they say look, everybody tonight, all we do is hammer trump. and everyone nods and says yeah, good idea, good plan, huddle up, break. and it becomes the thors hammer on donald trump. whatever the question is, they just load on trump. then it will have been a mission take am i'm not counting on those seven agrees on anything. >> rose: we continue talking about donald trump and fox news with gabriel sher man and megan murphy. >> donald trump has sort of blazed a new path. and no one knows what is going to play out. least of all donald trump, i done think he knows how this is going to play out which makes it

so thrilling. >> we conclude with al hunt on the story in iowa with michael gardner, doug gross and ann selzer. >> we become the stage for a national campaign. in a lot of respects. because particularly this year on the republican side where they had these debates and you couldn't get on the stage unless you were at a certain level in the national polls. so everybody was playing on a national stage just practicing their lines in iowa. >> politics, trump, fox news, and the iowa caucuses. when we continue. >> funding for charlie rose is troyed by the >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> rose: additional funding provided by: and by bloomberg, a provider-of-multimedia news and information services worldwide. from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose.

>> we begin this evening with hugh hewitt, he is the host of the popular conservative radio program the hugh hewitt show. he's also moderated two of the recent republican presidential debates. i'm pleased to have him back on this program. welcome. >> thank you, charlie. it's good to be back, i appreciate being here. >> rose: size up this confrontation, perhaps, between donald trump and fox news. and is it about what it seems to be about? >> no soup for you. you remember the famous seinfeld line. and thases' what donald trump just said to fox news. and what is it really about? it's about a master marketer taking control of a situation that is fluid, putting his foot in a position where it stomps on every other story in the news cycle. sort of like k mart before a hurricane, charlie. he came in and cleared out all

the free earned media that there is. so no matter what the show is, we're all talking about donald trump. i did it on my radio show today for three hours. so i think he's brilliant. and he's brilliant in a way that has broken every rule and destroyed every obstruction to ordinary political coverage. so my hat is off to him. just as a simple matter of professional marvel. whether or not it's good for the republican party or good for the country or good for donald trump come new hampshire, i don't know. but he won the news cycle again. >> rose: and what motivates him? is it exactly what you just said, to own the news cycle and make sure that he takes all the air out of the room that perhaps other candidates are desperately in need of? >> i think that's exactly it. oxygen is in short supply. and the people that need it are marco rubio and john kasich and chris christie and jeb bush. and carly fiorina. we'll call that the american league, that is the division

looking to be the alternative to trump and cruz. they need people to pay attention to them and listen to their messages, especially marco who is rising in iowa as we speak. ted cruz is in this bear hug with donald trump. it's like "the revenant" scene with leonardo dicaprio and the bear. and the two of them are going at each other. an they're their own show. and that's an interesting, that is the national league. someone will survive that. but over here in the american league, the designated hitter league where they are beating up on each other like. >> an donald just killed it again. it's simply brilliant. >> rose: why would he do this to megan kelly, why not he find another reason. why did he have to make it personal? >> i don't think it's about meghan kelly. at the beginning of the week he tweeted out and i think is what the pentagon would call preparing the battle field. and i have a trump tattoo right here, it says third rate radio announcer. have i had one of these as well.

it's not personal. it's preparing the battle field. it's working the refs, getting the umpires on your side. but the press release that fox put out yesterday which taunted him, and that is like taunting the bear, and i think when he brought that up at the press conference yesterday that was genuine and authentic. and here's something else i think. the american people like trump or his 30 to 40% like him and he's leading in every poll. he's right about that, because he hates the media as much as they do. he took out a reporter at that press conference yesterday who misquoted him or partially quoted him. and when he takes on fox news, that's con tra script, right, fox news is supposed to be the conservative news network. and they really aren't. they're fair. they have a lot of lefties on, just like my show, i had david axle-- axelrod and austin geulsby, i like a lot of mix, fox is the same way. when he does that and takes the filter off, i think a lot of americans stand up and cheer, if

not for him but for that other famous moment in media, i'm mad as hell and i'm not going to take it any more. so add the soup nazi in with that and you have donald trump 2016. >> rose: i don't think he hates the media. i think he knows how to-- i don't want to say the word manipulate, but he knows how to speak to the media. in the same way he knows how to speak to his audience. he's having a conversation with his audience. and he's ' saying i love polls, look at these polls and aren't we doing well it is a kind of shared conversation. and he knows how to have the media come to him which is not to hate them. >> but to play that role of knocking down reporters left and right. >> right. >> i think if he said charlie, i want to come over and do the show tonight, you'd bump me faster than a guy off of a crowded speed train in japan and that would be fine. i would do that to anybody. >> right. >> and that's because he builds audience. he's fascinating to talk to i've

done three things for 25 years, charlie. i've done journalism. i taught constitutional law at chapman school of law in orange county and i've been a lawyer for developers. big developers on the west coast, primarily. but abroad and back east. big developers. donald trump is a classic developer. he's eight steps ahead of the process. he's always anticipating where the game has to go and which permit needs to be gotten and which official needs to have their ego massaged. developers are at that level take enormous risks. they make gambles that pay off enormously or they go bankrupt doing it. some of the project have gone bankrupt, though he hasn't personally. and so that developer gammabler mentality, he owns casinos as well, we see that unfolding every day. but i still think ted cruz is going to win iowa. i told donald this last week, i said ted cruz is going to win iowa because evangelicals, you're going to win new hampshire and south carolina

will reset this entire race. and that's interesting to me because i think south carolina is a new state. it's not south carolina, even george w. bush, george mccain 2 thousand. it's a new state with a coastal economy, with a tourism economy, with boeing building these giant jets with a lot of higher education, with a lot of football. it will be the reset of the campaign. it really starts at the first in the south in my view. >> i grew up in north carolina as you know. >> that's right. >> let me just, implicit in what you just said, it seems to me, is that this is now a two-man race. >> it is-- i disn mean to. it is a two-man race for that one lane. cruz an trump are fighting it out for the outside of washington break all the windows, throw a brick through the winnow campaign, i'm mad as hell, i'm not going to take it i heard a ted cruz ad that was paid for by a superpac which was brilliant in which he raises his voice about washington. but over here in the other lane is the lane that is very serious

about a world that's gone to hell. that takes a look at hillary clinton, this is why republicans are panicked. i'm a republican and make no bones about it. we think she's a terrible candidate. i think she might be indicted under 18u sc1924. she had a terrible tenure as secretary of state. she was a disaster on syria, the libyan fiasco is on her watch, the russian reset button. she tired, she's weary. she's not very good. so we can win. all the republicans who just want to win, because we've got four supreme court justices, ruth bader gins blurg is 83, or will be when the new president takes office. anthony kennedy and antonin scalia are 80 when the new president takes office, stephen imrier will be 78. the next president gets to remake the supreme court. so if you are a republican you just want to win. you want to nominate someone who can win and the only person with higher unfavourables right now in the race than hillary clinton is donald trump. so he scares a lot of people but

his argument is don't worry, i can turn that around. i've done that before. i'll make the negative positive. and if he's nominated i will support him and i think every republican will. >> rose: but ted cruz scares a lot of republicans like bob dole and others. >> bob dole is interesting, god bless bob dole, he's an american hero but not a guy i'm looking to for the latest developments on twitter, snapchat and social media. and so i tell you right now, ted cruz has got the best social media network of all. candidates developed, it's a deep, deep web. a lot of touches on people. his folks will show up on monday night. >> rose: so that's why he will win in iowa because it's monday night and will have the troops on the ground with the enthusiasm to come to the meetks. >> yup. >> and he makes an argument. you don't get to argue nine times before the supreme court because you're lucky. i've got one law partner who has been to the supreme court one time and he's a former federal judge, steven larson. you don't get there nine times because you're lucky.

you get there because you're really good at a skill set that is useful right now in a primary campaign. >> rose: john roberts was the same way before he became a justice an chief justice. >> yes. when he was over at hogan, and the chief swrus tis and i shared an office back in the white house days. and he was a solicitier general, assistant solicitier general. it's a very small world of people who argue often before the supreme court and the appellate courts of the united states. ted cruz is among them. he is among the smartest people i've ever met. he has difficulty not showing that and that does put some people off. but bob dole and the senate institutionalists don't like the fact that he showed up and he didn't sit down and be quiet. or, you know, john allen is a great columnist for role call. and john's a friend. and i asked him, do people in this town really dislike ted cruz that much. john allen explained it he came to town and made everyone pawns on his chess board. and that rankled quite a few

people. and i think that's the best explanation of the animus that you see erupt out of the bob dole institutionalists wing of washington d.c. politics. >> rose: has the main, that lane of the party, so called establishment of the party, have they waited too late? did they wake up too late? did they all think that donald trump was going to go away. >> clearly, yes. clearly, yes. and i don't think, and anyone who says otherwise if they saw this coming, they're lying. in 1994 when neut ging rich and the house revolution took over, and i was working for pbs in those days. chris cox came on the set and leaned over and said if anyone tells you they saw this coming, they're lying. i say the same thing about trump in this race. nobody saw it coming. if they had, they would have fought a very different race from the very first time that donald trump gave them an opening which was the john mccain comnt. >> rose: right. >> forward, they would have focused fire on that. they didn't. and donald trump is the kind of guy who the more bullets he

takes, rassputin like, throw him in the river, stab him 50 times, he gets out of the river and keeps coming at you. >> rose: so if you had to lay money today, where would it be? i don't. i've got two more debates to do on behalf of salem media group. i don't want to-- i predict iowa and new hampshire, beyond that i'm not betting on the nominee. i have never seen anything like this. i'm looking forward to those two debates and to ask questions that will matter to republican voters. >> rose: what will be the deciding factor in south carolina? >> you know, interesting, south carolina say defense state. that's a military state. a state that builds planes and a lot of retired military. >> rose: you know that is, because the chairman many years in the house was from south carolina. >> there you go. i didn't know that. but it is a military state so i think foreign affairs will dominate that conversation in a way that it really hasn't in iowa, which is an evangelical state and new hampshire which just likes being first. but south carolina, look for people to talk seriously about

foreign policy, about their strategy for dealing with isis. you know, we dodged a bunch of bullets yesterday, charlie. that fellow they picked up in milwaukee, thank god for the fbi in wisconsin law enforcement. he wanted to do another san bernardino and was pretty far down the road. this race could change by the time this thing is finished airing tonight, if someone does another attack paris-style. south carolina knows that. and that is going to be an interesting race. >> rose: let me turn to bern ye sanders and hillary clinton for a second. one, you seem to lay all the blame, all what might be criticism of the obama administration at the feet of hillary clinton when you know, you know that foreign policy is run out of the white house. >> well, i do believe that she purposefully positioned herself to take credit for libya. so i put libya at her feet. whenever she talks about her 11 hours of testimony, i think of the movie 13 hours which i hope everyone in the audience has seen. syria is more in the white house than it is at the state

department. she and her own memoir which i may be the only person to have read hard choices, she takes credit for the red button, the reset button. and then she argues that it was working with medved ef was in charge. we all know, you know, i tbhoa, he wasn't in charge then, putin was in charge there. so she is either naive or afraid of what happened. the prg was marginally nice to us but they were being their artificial islands at the same time. the kie mean adventure was in the works. she went along with the so muchi olympic, a nightmare. >> rose: does it in the end mean that this year in 2016 voters who witnessed what happened to bernie sanders, witness what happened to donald trump are simply tired of what they consider the past. and both in its name and in its sense of we've seen this before. an they're looking for something new. and in your party, they're so-- they're so angry not only at the washington, but they're

also angry within their own party because they believe that the people they believe in have never had a chance except for ronald reagan. >> you've nailed it. on the left, i think they want to go full sweden. that's what i'm calling it. bernie sanders is saying lech me, we will go full sweden. i was surprised during their townhall, i disn refer him referring to the hall and-- woodstock. they are getting the band together. the port huron statement is the democratic party platform. >> rose: this is just in your imagination. >> i think i heard crossby stills nash and young in the background. in any event, and in my party. >> rose: that say good sound. >> it is a very good sound. god gles glenn frey and the eagles. i like the sound track of bernie sanders t is the best sound track. but in my party, if you go to washington, it's so rich, so wealthy, so connected. and what makes washington work is greas, and republicans know that, republicans know it's all

about lubing up the wheels and who is connected. and they're tired. promise. i think given time paul ryan will change that. i think he made a great start. i think his reach out as soon as he became speaker did give a lot of people on the right like me a lot of hope for the next, if we can get a republican president, we can have a 19 '80s all over again. the democrats are not looking backyards to the clinton years. the secretary clinton era is going to be about going full sweden. the first clinton era was moving to the middle she will be will moving to the left. the republican party wants another reagan era and if we select someone we will get it. >> rose: who wins in iowa, clinton sanders. >> i think bernie sanders does. i think they will have a huge turnout. the first person who stood up and looked at hillary clinton in the townhall said i'm hearing from all my friends you're dishonest. now that is a high hard fast ball at her head. i was kind of shocked by it. and she missed the answer. she choked. and i am told by republican

opposition firms that her three biggest vulnerability viewed as dishonest, as corrupt and incompetent. if someone calls you a dishonest cheat to your face or a liar, you don't repeat the charge, that's like richard nixon saying i'm not a crook. you never deny it but you talk about, as she could have talked about, her work on behalf of children in arkansas. and they didn't think that she had any problems on the ethics. there are so many good answers. but charlie rose, she is a dreadful candidate. and god love her, if she is the president, i wish her success. but she is maybe the worst major party candidate of the last 40 years that continues to get a second chance. >> rose: why is she leading so big nationally? >> it is inertia. it is the fact that bill clinton remains the best retail politician we have seen, reagan was wholesale, bill clinton was retail. folks hope that she's got some of his magic, some of his touch.

but every time she comes out. i swear i think bernie sandiers picked up five points during her part of the townhall, not during his. >> rose: it is a hell of a year. >> it is. >> rose: one hell of a year. and then there is michael bloomberg. >> oh please god. now look, you're a new yorker. and so you have a different view of this than i do. but i was in colorado teaching colorado christian university in lakewood for a few weeks this past fall. and they love their guns in colorado. and they don't like the mayor. the mayor will not carry florida, virginia, ohio, and colorado which are the four key states followed closely by new hampshire, nevada and new mexico. those are the big seven. mayor bloomberg will lose all seven. if mayor bloomberg gets in, the republicans win, so please if you are watching, mayor, run, run, run. >> rose: let me finally ask this. what if, what would be the scenario that makes this a mistake for donald trump? >> oh, that's a great question.

here is what would happen. if the seven or eight of them get together backstage and they make a little deal like the tennis people used to do in the exhibitions where they would split the pot, whoever won. they say okay, look, everybody tonight, all we do is hammer trump. and everyone nods and says yeah, good idea, good plan, huddle up, break. and it becomes the thor's hammer on donald trump. whatever the question is, they just load on trump. then it will have been a mistake. but i'm not counting on those seven agreeing on anything. >> rose: it's great to have i on the program. hope will you come back soon. >> thank you, good to talk to you. we'll be right back. stay with us. we continue now with politics and the back and forth between donald trump and fox news. joining me now gabriel sherman, a national affairs editor at new york magazine. he's also the author of the loudest voice in the room. how the brilliant bonl bas particular roger ailes built fox news and divided a country. and from iowa megan murphy of bloomberg news. i'm pleased to have both of them

on this am practice. megan, let me just go to you first in iowa. what is the talk in iowa about the impact of this? obviously we will not know until we see the debate and the numbers and what done all trump does in contrast to what happens at the debate. but having given those kinds of restraints, what's the talk? >> it's the talk of the town. the only thing people are talking about. and the big talk is exactly what you are flagging there, is will this be a benefit or something that hurts them. i think the overwhelming con sen shus we hear on the ground here is that this is again going to help him. that he seems to have the upper hand. that once again he's showing voters who is boss. he is doing what he is going to do he's walking away, using the tone that has made him famous throughout the race. any time you think with donald trump he has done something that will back fire him, he rises again. and what i think my favorite tweet of the whole season so far was someone who said anybody who think this is going to hurt donald trump certainly hasn't been paying attention for the past six months. >> then the obvious question is

did he do it for that reason, not because he had a quarrel, with the reporter. >> i think anyone trying to import reason in to, or a method into donald trump's madness is overreading things quite a bit. he operates under a different set of principles, a different set of rules, different ground game than anyone has done in this campaign or pretty much any other that we have ever seen before. i'm not sure he makes these decisions with a huge amount of fore thought on how it will win him over with voters. i think we are too far down that path. he is the overwhelming leader not only in every national poll but now leading in the last ten out of the 12 polls taken in iowa. and that say big change over the past week when he wasatch as much as four, five, ten points behind cruz in some polls. so look, do i think he looks at this and thinks what is my next strategic move. i don't think he thinks about it this way. i think he does what he does. he makes his decisions on the fly and is operating in an environment where he just cannot seem to make a mistake right now. >> rose: gaib, pick up on that.

>> if anyone is a fan of media politics and power and i know you are, this does not get any better. and this is sort of in unchartered waters as megan was saying, donald trump as sort of blazed a new path and no one knows what will play out, least of all donald trump. i don't think he knows how it will play out which is what makes it so thrilling. >> rose: first of all there was trump, he stoortsdz started it, did he not. >> trump would say megan kelly started it. we had the first debate in august. >> rose: i always thought that she would eventually appear on his program and it would be something to take place. it didn't for whatever reason. >> no. and i talked it many people inside the trump camp and at fox and for some reason meghan kelly got under his skin. this is personal for donald trump. ever since august, the first debate, he did not let it drop. there is something about the way she asked the question about his history of miss only nis particular comments which he feltd was a got ya moment, there is a feeling it even comes from rupert murdoch because we know he was hostile to the idea of a

trump candidacy still. >> rose: is he still. >> he warmed to it he talked to people close to him and he has been, the word that they used was quote impressed. he's been impressed by trump's resil yengs and i think anyone who-- resilience and anyone who is a student of this primary cycle knows. >> rose: he has also been tweeting, correct me if i'm wrong, meghan as well, he also has been tweeting that he welcomes a michael bloomberg candidacy. >> which is, i think, you know, there are many ways you can look this that. i think rupert murdoch likes to stir things up. there is talk that a michael bloomberg candidacy would only help the republican party. rupert mur dodge-- murdoch is a long time conservative. >> rose: there is this, megan, done and-- donald trump said today quote it was the childishly written and taunting pr statement by fox that made me not do the debate, more so than lightweight reporter meghan kelly. what was in that pr release by fox that was so infuriating for

donald trump? or is it not infuriating, he is just using it. >> i think it isn't about infuriating at all. he is just using it. what i like too about the use of the word that fox used about him terrorizing meghan kelly and the word they used was terrorization. so look, this is gamesmanship at its highest level. gaib makes a great point. we have never seen anything like this. what is most interesting is the dynamic that fox is playing in this race is so different and trump has really cracked the code here. he's using it to his advantage. as fox matures and matured over so long in terms of the position they hold within both the republican party and conservative movement more generally, they're seeing bits of their empire pick away by social media, by the way campaigns are using media in different ways. by the way money has been neutralized in this race in a way we haven't seen in previous cycles. and fox is sort of on a bit of the losing end of many of those trends. and donald trump is at the sort of venus of those trends in many

respects. so it is a fascinating battle we will see play out not only over the next week in iowa but over the next few months. >> has this come down to a battle between donald trump and rojtser ailes? >> right now, that is the state of play. tonight trump released a tweet that said it's not about the statement. it's not about megan meghan kelly t is about the statement. >> that is what i read. >> we know that statement as i reported today was written by roger ailes, basically against the advice-- . >> rose: the statement that he say so infuriated him. rose: but if you listen toten him, donald trump's statement, if you listen to his statement, he was planning to do the debate even though he said he wouldn't. >> that sort of pushed him over the edge. it sent fox into chaos, roger ailes was scrambling. his executives as i reported thought it was in the a good idea to release that statement. he did it against their wishes. and today you see fox scrambling to try-- he's been calling donald trump as i reported also. donald trump will not pick up the phone call.

roger ailes is trying to get through. he even called his daughter and other sur gats. they are trying to broker peace but so far donald trump is holding firm. and that again is another sign that we are in unchartered waters. donald trump is acting like a man who has all the leverage. >> rose: does he, megan? >> it's just crazy that we're even-- i mean, this discussion is so you know, exemplifies this race. we're talking about, you know, a sort of tit for tat between roger ailes and donald trump, you know, five days before the iowa caucus and how roger ailes, this sort of titan of media is having to call sur gats and hiferg his sur gats to call his sur gats to try to get him to appear at this debate. no one thought we would have ended up here. it is entirely unchartered water. there is no question in my mind that trump has the upper hand in this right now. >> can i give you a counter example that showed you how far we have come. in my book i report this episode that happened during the george w. bush presidency where roger ailes basically said fox news

was going to be the sort of state television. george w burk white house. at one point he felt they were not getting the best guest, they weren't getting cabinet secretaries and high level officials. so he called the white house and basically said you better shape up and a word went down to carl's rove who called the press office who said you better put the best people on fox news. that was the power that roger ailes had. if he said jump, the bush white house jumped. now fast forward all these years, donald trump the frontrunner, maybe the next president of united states we don't know. is telling fox news you are so irrelevant to my campaign i will not even show up at your debate days before the voting. that to me again, my mind is bog eled. >> earlier this evening, will there be an appearance by donald trump on a fox news program? >> he's doing o'reilly. he's scheduled to do o'reilly. as far as we know he will still do it at 8:00. again there are layers of intrigue into this. >> what are the layers of intrigue. >> bill o'reilly was for many years and still has been the

highest rated fox news host. he reinvented cable news. he was the marquee face of the network. along comes megan kelly. she gets a prime time show at 9:00. this debate with trump has sort of catapulted her into the culture. her ratings have skyrocketed. on certain nights she beats o'reilly and there is internetwork rivalry. bill o'reilly has told associates that he is very jealous and angry that meghan is now the face of the network. he feels sort of responsible for creating her stardom. he gave her prime air time on his show. so now you have bill o'reilly interviewing the chief antagonist of meghan kelly on his network. i mean to me that is a shot across meghan kelly's bow, a shot across roger ailes' bow. this is bill o'reilly down sort of in the weeds a little bit but bill o'reilly raising his hand to say hey, wait a minute, i for 20 years have been the face of this network. i can book who i want on my show. even if this candidate is in a feud with the network, i am going to bring him on.

>> rose: is there a scenario in which trump could be wrong? could women get angry? >> you know, we've been really interested this cycle to really dig down into his support among women, in particular blue clar women and women without a college degree, his main con stitd wednesdayee-- constituency, and white blue clar women, the themes that donald trump is really picking up on that are making him so dominant in this election is that he is promising people a better america. he's promising people things that they are so core to what they believe the american dream is all about. things they feel i'm worried about immigrants. i'm worried about the rise of the one percent. i'm worried about how am i going to give my kids a college education. how am i going to pay for my mom, my nine to five job no longer exists any more. it has been shipped out of the country or automated and i no longer have it. those sort of primal concerns people about their life, that is what he is tapping into. i don't think it cuts as much across gender as people think. it is a very unified set of

concerns. >> i think in iowa, at a trump rally in cedar rapids and people i met, the fervent trump spoforters don't think in terms of women's issues. they don't like that. they think it's politically correct that is why they like trump, he is not playing women's sloos, men's issues. he is saying this is what we need to do and it's connecting. >> it's absolutely connecting. the things he says are actually very similar to some of the themes that even bernie sanders talks about in terms of as operational delivery of what people soashtd, what america is all about it's so interesting when i meet people and talk to some people in iowa who say i'm kind of torn between who my favorite is. bernie sanders or donald trump that is where we are at in 2016. >> it's not sur priesessing that a lot of people in america are very, very frustrated about the way washington is working. >> absolutely not. you only have to go up there, live there like i do to understand what that frustration is about. but on that point, i actually don't think that establishment fatigue with washington is the

primary animus in this election. i really do believe this is about much more fundamental economic insecurity and people cannot plot out a course that allows them to have a better life under the current par a dime that they are operating in in their life. they cannot see giving their children what they have. >> i agree with you, it is a policy question though. and clearly they do feel that way. and have a right to feel that way. but who do they blame for failing them? >> you know, it's so interesting. if you are on the right you blame obama. you blame entightment programs, you blame welfare, immigrants, people who are driving rang rovers. you blame the other. if you are on the left, you blame wall street, you blame bankers, you blame politicians, you blame greed, you blame the inability of unions to really get better conditions. you blame sort of the outsourcing of work. so actually the sort of reasons why this concern is shared, who those blames is very different.

but the central concern is actually quite similar. >> fox people say that your book, they thought, was a hit on roger ailes. >> well, you know, three years of reporting, 2,000 hours of fact checking, you know, hundreds of secondary sources. i mean it was 600 interviews, it was metic lusly reported, reviewed wildly, new york review books, "new york times," new yorker magazine, it was a very sort of-- trying to understand roger ailes as a media genius, aes he a a titan. will go down as someone who revolutionized communication and politics in america. a approximately businessman, he built a $14 billion asset, this was a child of war in ohio. this is an american story. so you know, if he wants to see that as a hit, that is the way he sees the world. i see it as this great american saga that he was a central character in. and that to me is a universal story whether or not he enjoyed the book or not. that's not for me to decide. >> rose: you heard that before. >> yeah. >> rose: fox news is part of newscorp.

newscorp is essentially run by the murdoch family, rupert murdoch and now his children. how are they involved? >> well, operating in the background of this whole controversy is a generational shift that we've seen at the company. rupert murdoch elevated his two sons james and lock lan who have had kind of a difficult history with roger ailes, especially locklan murdoch. and a as i have reported roger ailes has sort of been less of a presence at fox news. he had an extended leave of absence after a health scare. and he has been basically trying to prove that he still has his hands firmly on the reigns. and so he is basically try tok show the murdoch family i'm firmly in control. donald trump might be a loose canon but i can put the lid back on it and i think that's another way, prism to look at this current controversy. >> rose: thank you, great to have you here. >> back in a moment, stay with us. is. >> harl charlie, the center of the political universe this week in america's heart larn, iowa. we have three guests uniquely

able to talk about this state, the history of the caucuses, it's politics, the eck sen trissities of iowans that play such a huge role in the presidential election. they are michael gardner-- gart nr a national of des moines who became the editor of des moines register and the aims register upon a pulitzer prize, he owns the iowa kubs, he took two detours to become the front page easyitier of "the wall street journal" and the president of nbc news and doug gross, himself a former gubernatorial candidate, chief of staff to governor terry branstad and head of the george w. bush and mitt romney initial iowa caucus campaign. doug is a repository for all things republican in the state of iowa. and ann selzer, the pollster for the des moines register and bloomberg politics. since 1992 she has run her own des moines polling firm. when they sur vaid the accuracy

of 337 pollsters, she was one of only three to get an a plus. and by 5:30 p.m. this saturday, toss out all the other polls as every one in politics will be looking for the results of anne selzer's iowa poll which is always been on the mark it is so great to welcome all three of you here. let's talk about your state, iowa, mainly white, mainly rural, little bit elderly. >> that's why i'm here, right. >> why we're all here. >> elderly and rural. >> we fit the stereotype. why is this the place to have the first presidential contest, doug? >> because it's small enough that you can manage it. and it gives everybody a shot. it was a tarmac campaign, only people with lots of money could succeed and right now george or jeb bush, freudian slip, jeb bush vunning fifth or sixth in the polls but with his superpac spent over $100 million. so here anybody can compete. >> do you think iowa is the good place. >> it's not really iowa any more.

iowa is just sort of the reality show for the nation it was, when jimmy carter started it out and johnny apple came here and jim flansberg and hall il ton, it really was, it really was a little experiment and it worked. and so others saw it and it grew. and then satellite came in and cable channels. and sot still goes on but now in my view, it is like a reality show. and we all know what role we're supposed to play. we're supposed to come on your show and say nice things. >> and tiek iowa. >> and talk iowa, and you becha. >> done all trump and his reality show. >> but iowans who always want to please, they learn their rolls very well. they studied the issues. out it and when you come andle put the microphone in front of them or the camera, they say what you expect them sto say. so it's really the stage for a national primary but it's more economicically done here. >> do you agree, ann?

>> i do agree. >> i think it offers people a lot is the whiteness of the state. it is over 90% white and then people think that maybe that has a-- means something to the outcome. historically candidates of color have done quite well here. obviously, most obviously bar ak obama. >> herrmann kane who at one point lead in the poll. jessie jackson came in third, ben carson lead in our poll earlier, allen keyes came in third ahead of john mccain when he participated here. -- opted out of iowa but i think she could have done well. >> and this guy named obama. >> right. >> you know, you talked about johnny apple and jerden, the iowa caucuses really began in 76y, there were caucuses in 27ee but 76y is when it really really. >> there were caucuses earlier but jimmy carter this had this

theory, apparently, let's go up there and met in the church basements and we had these two ight young guys with him, and then johnny apple, the great reporter for "the new york times" caught on right away. so he spent a lot of time and wrote about it. and then carter won. and so all of a sudden it became the formula for success. and it went on and on and on. you know, you can challenge it a little bit by saying cart certificate one of only three people whoever won who wasn't an incumbent out here. but never the less, it set the pattern. >> the most important thing a candidate can do is win something. that's what jimmy carter showed. the most important thing did he is win, iowa is the first place to win. >> in 1980 he had george h-w who came here as sort of the cia director and someone in china for awhile with socks that had no elastic in them. >> what? >> he had a lot of time with rich bon and others and beat ronald reagan in iowa. it was supposed to be ronald reagan. >> i remember covering duchess dollies over there. >> absolutely right. >> but what are some of your

memorable moments of the caucus scene her. >> i remember in 1980 when we were counting votes in the republican caucuses and george h-w was ahead. and some of the rural precincts weren't in yet. and we stopped counting. and he won. >> chicago-- shall ann, yours. >> my first caucus was 1988. i was on the staff of the des moines reg stemple i arrived in december and the caucuses were february. so it was a steep learning curve. there had been a short cut implemented before i got here that caused us, i determined, to show that george bush was leading in that caucus. and i had tho go to the editor. they don't know me, and say our poll is showing that george bush will win but i think bob dole will win. and he said well, what will fix that. i said money. and those days that wasn't the end of conversation. so we were able-- to-- and bob doll, in fact won. >> that is why 5:30 we will be looking for you, ann, what comes to mind?

>> you know, like you said, i own the baseball team, opening day is 7th. good tickets are still available. so as you always know, the politicking starts way before the caucus nights. and so almost everybody ends up down at the ball park one reason or another. and so it's interesting to talk to them down there. miesh el bachmann comes up to the press box and she looks out. and she looks at me and she says your lawn is beautiful. most people don't call a baseball field a lawn. that was sort of unusual. and then early on the senator from south carolina who looked like you. >> frits holding. >> said to me one day, we had a cup of coffee early one saturday morning. we walked out and he put his arm around me. he said are you a big man in now. i said no really. he said let me ask you a question, what is that, senator. >> you have seen a lot of politicians come through. >> yes. >> has every single one of them promised you a parking ramp?

>> i will say the iowa cubs play a principal park which has its first amendment emblazoned across the outfield wall. one of the many reasons it's great to go there. is this state a totally agriculture-dominated state. >> no, not at all. >> but the perception most people have in the outside is this is farm country. >> well, we've got a lot of insurance, for example, in this state. next to hartford, more home offices for insurance companies in des moines than any other place in the country. >> however, there are seven pigs for every human in the state. >> how many vote. >> that depends on your-- if we are counting or not. >> depends on injure party. >> we keep ourselve enin the back room downtown. but they're really 7 times as many pigs so a lot of people think that it's a rural state. but it's not a rural state any more. >> does that change the exotion of the electorate. >> sure. it used to be we had a big con

tin gent of farmers and we could pull them out in the polls and look at their votes-- votes separately there are too view to do that any more. but agribusiness and the bio science and the things that have agriculture as a piece of their manufacturing, that is still very prominent here in iowa. >> it is hard to separate them now. >> not only that, but we have nationalized, as michael said, we've become the stage for a national campaign. in a lot of respects. because particularly this year, on the republican side where they had these debates and you couldn't get on the stage unless you were at a certain level in the national polls, so everybody was playing on a national stage, just practicing their lines in iowa. and so it's very much been nationalized. we're really a micros could am of what the nation thinks right now. >> i'm fascinated by the political history. i mean the most famous iowans, some people think was marion morrison. for those you that don't know who marion morrison was, that was the duke, john wayne. he didn't tell people he was marion mar-- but the two most prominent political fillings over the last hundred years have

probably been herbert hoover, a failed conservative republican president and henry wallace, a failed third party liberal democratic candidate. you couldn't find two people. >> wait what is failure. most of the things that henry wallace stood for are policy today. >> and herbert hoover. >> and what herbert hoover did was incredibly successful in terms of providing aid to the victims of world war ii and world war one, post presidency and con sulked by presidents until the day he. >> fine, al. >> you east coast elitist, you know, we know where you are from. >> but it does show a great range in this state. and when i first started coming out here following people like r-w apple in 76y, iowa was considered in presidential races reliably republican. 52 to 84, everybody but the gold water debacle. since 88. it's gone democratic every year in presidential races. what happened to iowa? >> except for 2004. >> except for one, right.

that was close. >> that was a painful one because our poll said john kerry would win. >> you are entitled one. >> we are not an agricultural state but ago business is big and we had something in the 890see called the farm crisis and we largely depop lated a goods share of the rural parts of the state. and ronald reagan happened to be president at the time and the state turned more democratic as a result of that. and now it's very much a purple state. >> the other thing to remember is for five terms in the senate, for 30 years in the senate, we had tom harkin, pretty hard to get more liberal than tom harkin and chuck grassley, hard to get more conservative than chuck grassley and everyone was just fine with it. >> right. >> and in fact they both got more than 60% of the vote in their most recent field. >> and when you elect people, you keep them. you had grassley, harkin, branstad has served as governor longer than any governor in america. >> why? >> yeah, but really, if there is an anger, an alienation that

swept the country in the last 20 years. >> they're good people. and you don't have to throw out somebody just because they've been in office for a little bit. and by and large they're good people. >> the reason why, the reason i get re-elected is the people of iowa get to know them. it's small enough you get to know them and they know you care about the state. whether they are liberal or conservative you know they care about the state and that's good enough. when it comes to presidential candidates, the same thing hold. they're going to get to know these folks and whether or not they care about the future of country. >> with those three politicians you just mentioned, they genuinely love the state. love the state, and the people get that. z and they careful because iowans love the state. and there's nothing phoney about chuck grassley or tom harkin or bran stad that is why they stay in office. >> a great sense of state pride. >> yeah. >> and their con stit wents. >> i saw a poll that ann didn't do.

>> so it's' not reliable but anyway. >> they asked this question. do you think iowa is the best place in the world to live or would you rather live somewhere else. and 76% of the people in iowa said this is the best place in the world to live. >> on the other hand. >> that's pretty extraordinary. >> the iowa poll did a poll when they asked people if they thought they would go to hell or not. five percent of people thought they would go to hell, but 10% of them thought their next door neighbor was. >> i bet the five percent had more fun. >> let me be the eastern elitist again. why do young people leave iowa though. there are a lot of young people, you have one of the highest college graduates of people from iowa who leave. >> historically that was true, and is a remnant of the lack of opportunity caused by the farm crisis. but that has changed. we've got five kids, all millenials, every one of which wants to come back to iowa and is in the process of doing so. >> your kids. >> yeah. >> that is the key, come back. everybody ought to go away for awhile. there is nobody as devout as a convert. you come back and you realize how great it is. and. >> i went away.

>> i went away. >> i went away. >> that is how i met you. you went away before that. you deserted all the great higher, the great institutions of higher education in the state and went to, is it highly respected. >> highly regarded garden college. >> when we were at the "the wall street journal" mike elevator was the front page editor and we only could refer to it as highly regarded carlson. >> they come back. they come back. and they come back with ideas. they come ba enthusiastic. and they get into the core of community. >> is it, we talk about iowa but there is not one iowa. if you are in the east, pretty democratic. it's a little bit more working class. if you are in the west, it's a little bit more farm, rural and conservative republican, right. >> what part of iowa is nebraska. >> no, i grew up there, michael. come on, no, it's not. ive i've been to nebraska. it's not nebraska. >> i know nebraska.

>> you're not a. >> and i love the name of your hometown. >> defiant. >> defiant. >> defiant, iowa. >> the railroad wanted to make us move the town. we refused so they called us defiant. there is a pop louse street that runs from east to west, north to south and you are seeing it today. two sides of the same corn with bernie sanders and donald trump appealing to a popular-- you have people like steve king who is from that northwest quad rant. he's the most right wing member of the house of representatives. you don't think of iowa as right wing. >> that is why i said nebraska. >> he may have you on that. >> no, you will find out the guy like steve king over time is going to end up with a prime aero upon ent. i suspect this year he may well have one. because people sense that steve is into it for himself and not the state. >> how could you say something like that about any politician. what do you mean? >> what are you talking about.

>> you know, when you ran the romney campaign, i know it's painful. >> i remember romney came out to this state, the sort of basically proimmigration reform. >> yeah. >> and it changed quickly, didn't it. >> why was that. >> because he thought he had to to win. that was the problem with that campaign. if you have a candidate who doesn't really know for certain who they really are, they usually become nothing or a caricature of themselve. that is kind of what happened there. and i think the same thing happened to the republican side this time. everyone thinks you have to die so far right on immigration. the irony of this is the only places in rur at iowa that are growing are those that have immigrants. >> that's true of the entire history of the state. >> the integration of the immigrants into a place like storm lake. >> or denniston, marshal town or perry, it's unbelievable. it's just unbelievable. and one reason, one reason is because there was never a rich part of town and a poor part of town in these towns anyway. so the immigrants moved in.

your neighborhood, my neighborhood, and it is just amazing. >> are these working class immigrants, latinos, farm wores, crust workers. >> a lot come up as packing plant workers but they send their kids to school and then on to college. and then those kids come back and they're the mayor, they're the pharmacists, they're the lawyer. >> it is not any different than it ever was. >> people move to mason city from greece because they want to work in the concrete plant. >> the elevation of the family just like any immigrant, like my grandparents or your grandparents. >> we did a study. >> yours came on the may flower. >> they came in boats, yeah. >> did they stir controversy? i mean if they don't stir controversy, why does mitt romney switch. why is donald trump doing so well. and why are the others. >> i would argue that mitt romney would have won both in 2008 and 2012, he had had stayed true to his lanes on the immigration issue. there are 40% of republicans,

ann you may want to comment on this, that believe we need immigration reform, they're okay with immigration reform. the problem with the folks is they listen to the extreme. that is the biggest issue with the iowa caucuses, because they are caucuses, it tends to accentuate extremes. >> on both sides. >> yes. you would think in iowa if you look at the ads most iowans, democrats are either hippies or wish they were. and on the republican side, you just think they are far right wingers. and the great bullk of us, the unwashed masses aren't that way at all. >> do you agree with that. >> yes, i do. and the really the whole idea of the immigrant experience is no different than what has been historically. we did a study several years ago with the hispanic population in central iowa. i think the thing that stunned the audience the most was that they are here to stay. this isn't a transtore population that is looking to make money and go home. they are putting down roots here. they are connected through their work, their families, their church to the communities. an they're here to stay. >> the other thing you have to remember is this the state that embraced southeast asians when

no state would take the people. governor bob ray a republican. >> although a democrat today. >> he was my man, i worked for him. >> embraced. >> ronald reagan might be. >> but he is, as a group they wanted to come to america. they wrote to every state, bob ray is the guy who said let's take everybody. but this is also the state that when those judges on the supreme court said gay marriage is a constitutional right under the iowa constitution, they were voted out of office. >> were voted out of office by one to two percentage points. the next cycle, the guy was kept in. my friend david wigins was kept in. and it won't be an issue this year. three judges are up this year, including the chief who wrote the opinion. d i think we're teshablys year. embarrassed about that. as iowans. but on the other hand, i think it is a small price to pay to have three people lose their jobs for the rest of us to gain our freedom.

>> not only that, i would argue that vote was more than just about gay marriage there were other issues associated with the supreme court. there were some lauers that had a hard time voting for retention the because of the way the supreme court operated. mike sell right. we had a far more polarizing justice up after that who had no problem getting received. >> but the point about the caucuses is interesting. ann, when we do the poll which we do with bloomberg politics with the des moines register, we have to be careful and not extrapolating this to a general election. because it is different on both sides. >> it is a relatively small population. we call this a low incidence event. that is not that many people actually show up on caucus night. so the trick is finding a cross section of the people who are going to show up there but they don't really look much like the general electorate. >> well, i'll tell you, there is no better place to be in january than iowa. it is better than-- but it's great to be in iowa. the politics are fun, whatever the imperfections and i think you all have talked a lot about

your great pride in the state. and i thank you for being with us. we had fun, i think. >> thanks for inviting us. >> thank you for watching. >> for more about this program and earlier episodes visit us online at pbs.org and charlie rose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

>> funding for charlie rose is provided by the following: and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. >> tomorrow a conversation with the fifth american recently released by iran.

this is "nightly business report" next with tyler mathisen and sue herera. >> heightened concerns. stocks tumble after the federal reserve said it's worried about growth and the global economy. but is the central bank's ability to fix things limited? lying low. boeing doesn't expect to deliver as many jets this year as it did last and that has shareholders nervous. cash advance, no atm card, no problem as long as you have your smartphone. the new way people are accessing their accounts. all that tonight on "nightly business report" for wednesday january 27th. good evening, everyone, and welcome. the fed is on hold. today, the u.s. central bank citing lower economic growth and inflation expectations kept interest rates