>> rose: welcome to the program. the super bowl is ten days away and wexcbs analyst and former hd coach of the pittsburgh steelers when they won the super bowl in 2006. >> when it's second down and one or second down and one and you have a play action pass and you go deep. you come in with a blitz on third down and ten and they're thinking you're going to drop eight. or you drop eight back in there when you showed a blitz. you're showing one thing and you play another. little bit of indecision andey the thought processes of players is what you can do and that's the danger you can give your players. >> rose: we continue this evening with dr. anthony fauci talking about the zika virus. >> the first question that's a very important question is what

is the nature of this relationship between infection of pregnant women and the birth defect that are clearly temporally and geographically associated with the major increase in zika is a major increase in seeing these births defects. whether or not there's cause effect there, that's one of the big unknowns. is it zika alone that's doing t or is zika being there has nupght to do with zika or is zika virus synergying with something else. with pregnancy, zika itself is a relatively inconsequential virus. >> rose: we conclude this evening with a remarkable film called fighting isis that will appear on hbo, the correspondent ben anderson and the camera man

is jack fager. >> we have to achieve the exact opposite what we wanted to achieve. it is definitely a threat to the u.s. now where as it wasn't before. >> rose: bill cowher, anthony fauci, ben anderson and jackson fager when we continue. >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> rose: additional funding provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> super bowl 50 will kick off on sunday february 7th in the

stadium at santa clara california. the panthers will face off against the denver broncos. it features the nfl's best defense in denver to the likely mvp cam newton. it's an injury play season quarterback peyton manning pursues his second super bowl title. there's speculation this could be the final game in manning's storied career. with the pittsburgh steelers for 15 years he won two afc championships and a super bowl title in 2006. heû is an analyst on nfl today n cbs today and i'm pleased to have you back at this table. welcome. >> good to be here charlie. >> rose: is it that simple as i just suggested the best defense against the mvp. >> yes. if it comes down to that. it's ironic. i sat there with you and the

commissioner watched the super bowl two years ago and we watch the denver broncos to at the time had the number one offense in the national football league. here they are years later total transforation coming back with a super bowl with a number one defense. i give a lot of credit to john elway for the moves he made from then until now. >> rose: because he understood that he needed a great defense? this isj÷ a guy whose world was off. >> when he won the championships late in his career, he did it with a running game and he did it with defense. when you look at the last few years in this offense state of mind we have in the national football league, think about the teams that are in the sure bowl, the seattle seahawks they've done it with defense in the last two years. even this year, even carolina they lead the league in take aways and now again with the denver broncos. really two years ago when they lost that game that we sat and

watched. they got man handled by the seattle seahawks in that game. he went out, got a key to leave. he went out john elway that is. he went out and got the award,. he took and said do you know what if i'm going to win this in the window i'm going to have with peyton manning i have to transform this team from an offensive team to a better and tougher team on defense. >> rose: interestingly peyton manning whenever you talked to him the first day he said this is about our defense. >> yes. >> rose: i understand the viable thing here is the defense that's been put together. >> it's interesting to watch i think when you look at them. you talk about the circle of life, right. peyton comes into the season with the indianapolis colts. what are they doing, they'rerune doing boot legs. then he kind of morphed into this guy who became this shotgun quarterback with all the gyrations back there, the overhalls, reading defenses. now he's kind of back in under

the center again. right in offense he did 16 years ago. so it's just interesting to watch. and certainly he's not the player he once was but he's still so cerebral and he's able to get them in the right place and that's why they are where they are. >> rose: so he can have an impact. enver broncos want to win thishe game. >> rose: and that is to simply connect with his receivers. >> let's face it, their running game is not the best running games in the national football legal. they have to run the ball to keep the defense on shorten the action. they won over the patriots by not going into huddle. they shortened the game with the denver broncos. i think rung the ball shorten the game. that's where they want to play. they want to keep their defense fresh but he's still going to have to take some shots down the field>> rose: what was it that

denver did to brady. >> mixed it up. they really confused him. i think he saw early in that came, he rushed three people. he would rush five people. he played man to man and then he played zone early in that game. so you saw all of a sudden tom brady the first time hesitant, not decisive; is that right because -- >> rose: because his receivers were covered. >> with every defense you know where to go with the ball. all of a sudden they show you one thing and on the snap it becomes something else it puts indecision in your mind no matter how long you've played this game. we saw that last week with wade flus. it's a chess match. it's move and counter move. in the super bowl wade versus mike.

it's an amazingh9 job utilizing cam newton. >> rose: don shula's son. >> yes. >> rose: you had phillips creating the defense and mike shula. >> on the offense. >> rose: for the carolinas. two sons of great coaches. >> yes, it really is. those two assistants. i've always said as a head coach is to have good coordinators. i had ken woods in 2005 we won the super bowl and he became a head coach. so what you have the defensively with mike shula in offense. you have gary running the offense, phillips running the defense. >> rose: when the quarterback comes out of the huddle and either sets up on the center or back in the shotgun, he pretty much knows where he's going. he pretty knows where, he knows,

he knows the patterns they're going to run. he knows where they are supposed to be. >> he has a play he calls. sometimes he may have two plays. so he may come up to the line of scrimmage andcertain defense. most of the time when you watch it, you want to watch the safeties because they will tell you a lot. is it two deep or one deep. if it's one deep -- if it's two people deep you might want to run the ball. you have to disguise your coverage. that's the thing denver did a great job of. >> rose: disguised their coverage. >> they did it against brady. if you let peyton manning, he will not snap the ball. he wants to know what you're in. he'll go out there, he's going to snap it. gets you to show what you're doing. if he sees what you're doing he will get them in perfect play and know exactly where you go with the ball. >> rose: that's a genius.

>> that's a cerebral product and makes him special. >> rose: brought there as a good tight, good tight end we've seen in while. do you agreer not. >> yes, absolutely. >> rose: when he goes and takes a step and then goes across, that seems to be their money shot. >> yes. >> rose: it's hard to cover. >> hard to cover because;n gronk is one of those guys, he's big for linebackers and too big for defensive back. he creates a match up problem. >> rose: he's fast for linebackers. >> he's too fast for linebackers and too big for defensive backs so sometimes the -- >> rose: should be the model of a tight end. >> they are. you'll see that with greg olson is the number one receiver when you look at cam newton. who is his go-to receiver. >> rose: that's the guy you want to go to and the guy you're looking to go to if a primary receiver. >> if you look at the number of catches at the end of the day, who they target. most of the time for carolina

panthers it's tight end greg olson. >> rose: cam newton is a quarterback. >> special. special. he's a multipurpose quarterback. he can run with the football. he's six five, 245. runs like a runningback. >> rose: six five, 245. he can see the field. >> he can see the field. he's very good in the pocket. he's one of those guys when you think these guys who run the football as much as cam runs the football,hk he's become a very good pocket passer. he'll stay in there. the line will protect for him. he'll stay in the pocket and he throws very accurately down the field. >> rose: was there failure of the patriots frontline to protect him? can you assign failure to them? >> yes. i mean -- >> rose: was that their job and they didn't do it. >> yes. remember there were sacks. they were playing at home.

>> rose: tell us this. you were telling me this before we sat down. you had one question you wanted to ask them going into the game between the broncos and the patriots. >> talked to vaughn miller, i talked to derek wolf and marcus weir. they are under dogs going into the game playing at home. i said to them, if we do this blank, we will win the game. i wanted him to fill in the blank. i don't want to hear score more points than the other team. vaughn miller says ifsacks we w. i said two sacks. he says i'll get two, derek will get too and demarcus will get two. they got four sacks in the game. he has two and-a-half and they did win the game. >> rose: what that means to me if we can sack tom brady that much, that means that we have figured out a way to get to him. >> exactly. and they did that multiple ways. they did it with three man rush,

five man rush, they did it with four man rush. so they did do it with some confusion that they created and they did do it because they have some very very good pass rushers. >> rose: i think the hardest position when i look at football, i think the hardest position was for me to imagine playing is a defensive back. >> yes. >> rose: you've got a guy coming at you. he's trying to fake you. he knows where you're going and you don't. and you're trying to keep up with him and find out where the ball is too and get between him and the ball. >> right. and it is, it is to a degree. but if you have good rushers up front and you know the quarterback is not going to hold the ball long it makes your job easier. i think the hardest job to be honest with you is quarterback>. >> because you have to process so much information in a very short period of time and your decision making becomes almost the telltale sign of the result. >> rose: and cam does that

well. >> cam does that very well. i mean i think they use camps skill very well. mike shula has done a great job of deception. they run the basic plays but they do different ways of getting there. they'll do a reoption with jonathan stuart. they'd incorporate a passing game with greg olson on the ey do a lot of things but utilizing his skill as a runner as a threat that's the challenge the defense has. >> rose: in your mind you believe peyton manning is thinking this is it for me. >> i do. >> rose: this is my time. i got to come in here with the right frame of mind, with the right attitude, with the right sense of it all coming together and do what i can do for this to team to give it the necessity, the necessary element to make it. >> i keep going back to when you and i sat down and watched that game. >> rose: he was likezw tom brady last week. >> he led the league. offensive number one in the national football league.

it's to shut him down. so again i go back to the moves john made. he left there and started a hall of fame quarterback. i need a better defense and now he comes in here two years later. >> rose: with a hall of fame quarterback. >> and a great defense. let's see how it works. >> rose: what do you love about the game the most. >> the strategical part of it. >> rose: what we talked about. like being a general. >> yes, it is. it is doing what they don't expect you to do. come on up with the unexpected. not to get away from what you do best, but to do it in a manner with when you got to create some indecisions, you got to create a surprise a spark. you[>> rose: what do you thinkf that. >> i always thought running was some kind of gimmick. >> rose: when they weren't expecting it. >> on side kick we did that in super bowl 30. we had the halfback pass.

with anton across the 30. i silt there and watch them the thing mike shula is doing innovative wise. these are things that players get excited about. you don't want to get away from what you do best but you also want to do something that's special. something that's unique, something that's different. something that can potentially give you a big play in a game because every game comes down to two or three plays that have tremendous impact on the outcome. and so -- >> rose: part of that is timing when it comes. >> it's the timing of play call which i go back to the strategical part of it. well the players won the game. yes. but it's calling the right play at the right time to give those players a chance to be successful. so timing of play calling, both sides of the ball. >> rose: wh t play you call and what time. >> you call reverse. when it's second down and one. or second down and one and you have a play action mass and you go deep. when you come in with a blitz on

third down and ten thinking you're going to drop eight. or you drop eight back in there when you showed a blitz. you're showing one thing and you play another. so to be able to show the perception of something and play something else which can create a little bit of indecision in the thought processes of players is what you can do and that's the danger you can give your players. >> rose: can you say the broncos or the pan thers are a better team. going into it pound for pound skill for skill, i would say the caroline panthers are a better team. >> rose: because of the balance in their team. >> i look at the offensive side of the ball. they are a football team, the offensive line is good. they can run the football. they've shown the ability to show it. they have the league mvp. i think clearly you look at them. the ranking is they only be 11th but this is a very hard offense to defend. you look at it defensively you

say okay it's number one but this team leads the league in take away on defense the carolina panthers. they have the biggest differential between take aways. they don't turn it over. on paper without a doubt it's carolina. but÷p i think on paper last week it was the new england patriots too. and i just wonder about this little run right now that they're making with peyton manning can he go one more game. >> rose: thank you great to you. >> my pleasure. >> rose: i can't wait. one of the great things i can say to you is to watch the super bowl sitting next to this guy and it's like watching a general as he tries to figure out how the battle will go because everybody says the plans is the stop of the beginning of contact. back in a moment. stay with us. >> rose: world health

health officials are talking about the zika virus while the symptoms can be mistaken for the flu, it is widely suspected of causing birth defects in some andgd rare cases of program -- paralysis. as many as 3 million people could be affected next year and could be here by the spring. dr. anthony fauci is here with us. let's talk about the level of concern and level of threat and then talk about the response. >> so we no doubt are already seeing and will continue to see what we call imported cases. because it is correct that there is a very very extensive outbreak of zika virus in south america, particularly in the north eastern section of brazil, as well as in the caribbean. so we will see because people travel to that region and come back to the united states and

we've already seen about 50 cases that have come back into either the continental united states or territorial united states. that's not surprising. we're going to see even more of that. the critical question is will there be local transmission within the united states. and by local transmission what we mean is if i'm in south america or the caribbean and i get bitten with a mosquito and go back to let's say the southeastern part of the country, florida or texas orwha. and the mosquito bites me and then bites somebody else, that's called local transmission of the virus. that's what feel given the history that we've seen with viruses like dengue, it is likely we will see these mini little outbreaks, we feel that it is unlikely. not impossible but unlikely that we'll see an extensive explosive

outbreak in the united states the way we're seeing in south america. and again, you don't want to be cavalier bit, -- about it, it's not a guarantee but history sells us it's unlikely we'll see an explosive outbreak. >> rose: the director general of the world health organization says the level of concern is high as is the level of uncertainty. questions abound. we need to get some answers quickly. what are the questions and what are the answers that we need to know. >> well the first question that's really a very important question is what is the naturer] of this relationship between infection of pregnant women and the birth defects that are clearly temporally and geographically associated with the major increase in zika is a major increase in seeing these birth defects. whether or not there's cause effect there, that's one of the big unknowns. is it zika alone that's doing it, is there something else that's doing it along with zika

being there and it has nothing to do with zika or is it see know virus synergizing with something else that's causing it. that's the big unknown. because if you put aside the situation and the problem and the issue with pregnancy, zika itself is a relatively inconsequential virus. it gives a self limiting disease lasting usually three to five or seven days. fever, joint aches, rash and some pink eye and then it goes away after a few days. so it's not like one of those very serious diseases for the entire population. but when you're dealing with a pregnant woman, that's where the real concern is. but that'seunknown is. >> rose: how fast can you answer that? >> well we want to do and the cdc is doing it, we're doing it also in collaboration with the brazillians particularly because they have the greatest burden of disease, what's called natural history and case controlled

studies to try and see if you could match the infection with the event, with the fetus, namely the congenital abnormality and find out if the association is real in the sense of cause effect versus just an association temporally. >> rose: what is microcephaly. >> microcephaly is a disease in a child, in a fetus in which the head the cranium is small. you look you see the pictures of it they have a small head. the reason they have a small cranium is because the brain either is interrupted in its development so it's a developmental abnormality and/or a direct toxic effect on brain tissue. we're not exactly sure. there's probably a spectrum, charlie where if you get infected early, you have axú developmental problem with the brain. and later on you might have a direct toxic effect. the end result is that you have

stillborns, you have babies who die soon after birth or if they survive they often have very serious abnormalities related to the neurological systems. >> rose: it is likely caused by zika? >> yes. well, the association is there and that's the point we want to make. that's the reason why we're not saying definitively that zika is causing it. because it's associated with but the cause effect relationship has not been established. >> rose: so with all this care and concern and risk of spreading, what does someone a who is pregnant or someone who is concerned do? >> well that's very clear with regard to pregnant women. because of the fact that there are unknowns, and this very strong association with developmental defects of the brain in fetuses of women whozd

are infected during pregnancy. the recommendation for our cdc in their guidelines is that if you are a pregnant woman or thinking of getting pregnant or not sure if you are pregnant, that you should seriously consider putting off travel if you intend to travel to the involved regions in south america and in the caribbean. so the recommendation is to hold off on travel and not put yourself at risk until this is straightened out. >> rose: tell me if i'm wrong. there's no quick diagnostic test to ascertain if you have contacted it. >> it's tricky with the test charlie. if you're infected in that brief window when you have the virus in you and it's not like hiv where it stays forever. the virus is there for a few days to a week. there's a test, a molecular test that can easily tell you within hat small window if you are infected. that's a widely available test. the test that's the tricky one

is that if a woman or i get infected now and then three, four five weeks later i want to find out if i were infected, thñ test for the anti-body to d jis one that's not widely available. only a few specialized labs can do it. point number one. point number two, it cross reacts with other viruses in the environment. and so if i were in let's say brazil and i had been exposed very likely to dengue, i would have dengue anti-bodies in me. if i was trying to find out if i was exposed to zika, the particular antibodies would cross react and i couldn't tell definitively is it zika or dengue unless you do again another specialized test. so diagnosis after you've been infected is somewhat problematic. >> rose: what's the possibility of a vaccine. >> i think the possibility is quite good, charlie, and i'll tell you why i think that.

because we've had experience with successfully developing vaccines against other viruses of this class. and the class is called a flavey virus. so yellow virus, dengue, zika, west nile. those are flavey viruses. we have successful vaccines against yellow fever and we have one against dengue and we developed one against west nile in a phase one study. we didn't bring it to fruition of an advanced development because pharmaceutical companies were not interested. so what we're going to do, in fact we've already started it a couple weeks ago is to use the same technology that we developed for a west nile virus and apply it to zika. and although vaccines will likely take before they're approved, the regulatory process a few years to be available, we believe we can0% go into a phase

one early trial to determine safety and whether it induces an appropriate immune response within the calendar year of 2016. it will take several years to develop but we're getting right on the early stages. >> rose: you have called mosquitoes the most murderous animal on earth. >> i am convinced that's the case. if you look at all the disease and devastation caused by mosquitoes throughout the world, be it malaria, be it the diseases that we're talking about right now. they are certainly one of the most destructive creatures on earth. >> rose: my co-host on cbs this morning dale king asked the most interesting question. do mosquitoes have any redeeming values. >> and the answer i told gail s no we don't. if we could get rid of them it would bur wonderful >> rose: what's the best way to get rid of them.

>> we have wide swaths of areas. there are some consequences environmentally so you want to balance that with trying to get rid of the mosquito. with a we're doing right now, a number of agencies are doing that is to try and develop a compound that would either destroy the larvae or the adult mosquitoes but do it in a way that's environmentally acceptable both for the true environment as well as for people so there's no toxic effect. >> rose: dr. anthony fauci. thank you as always. very helpful. we'll be right back. stay with us. >> rose: fighting isis is a new special report from vice on hbo. it takes viewers to the front lines against isis that stops in anbar province, iraqi kurdistan and the air base in syria. iraqi forces resecond the city

of ramadi in september. here's a look at fighting isis.r of my friends what would you do? >> iraq is rapidly becoming a failed state. >> it is the worst american foreign policy catastrophe ever. >> with isis now controlling a third of the country. >> the most heavily armed groups. >> every male they can find is volunteering to fight. >> in the main line to fight against the islamic state. >> the refugees are now living

in the abandoned buildings. this is russian air base, one of many signs that can turn into a global conflict. >> rose: joining me is the reports correspondent?ubhr jackson fager. i am pleased to have them both at this table. welcome. this is extraordinary for anybody who cares and follows these stories to see it visualized like this and congratulations. >> thank you. >> rose: tell me what you were trying to accomplish here. >> i mean, people are talking about what's happening in iraq. there aren't that many people going there to see it. >> rose: that's why i said that's what makes this important. >> that's why we have a small team to spend enough time on the ground to film real life happening. >> rose: you used to do this alone. >> yes. >> rose: taking your own pictures. >> yes. >> rose: what made you and jackson work together. >> -- trying to find someone who

could come with me and film me. when you go at it alone, you have all these thoughts what could happen to you. >> rose: and what could happen to others. >> but you're willing to put yourself in danger. you're taking someone else, i met jackson's wife and his mum and dad and it's the calculations. >> rose: people probably now his father is jeff fager one of my bosses at cbs. how do you divide up. tell me how you two work together. >> well i mean there was a lot of pressure on me because ben goes to these places alone. so right off the bat man he can do this by himself. i handle the camera and try to make it easy as possible with him. >> rose: when you came out with something great did you say did you get this? >> the most important thing is -- >> i need that question. >> rose: i just did my job,

did you do yours. >> right, right. >> i can't overstate the importance of when things are happening, chaotic. now you go next year who is covering everything as well as covering the sound as well as the picture. >> rose: are you looking for somebody who has the same kind of dna as you do about the story? >> yes. i mean this is a new experience here. asking me questions about, i remember on the eve -- started asking me questions about you think about the possibility of design in moments like this. so we're having conversations like that. that was kind of the forefront. >> rose: what did you think about the question you had the isis fighter. >> i laughed slightly because that was a throw away question right at%z the end of the interview. he said it was after conviction. i said to myself i wasn't going to shake my hand with these guys. i didn't after the first interview. he shook my hand and said i hope we had more time to speak.

but i had no doubt he would kill me. >> rose: were you surprised by the answer. >> he surprised me slightly. for him it was a hundred percent ideology. the first two confirmed what everybody else said to us which was life under maliki if you weren't a shi'ite were so horrible. even christians said this to us. when isis came along we welcomed them offering us protection. >> rose: you had this urge during the bush administration which was successful. david petraeus was involved in that and you had the awakening and you had the combination of more persons and you had this sort of lastp7administration whs successful because they convinced the sunni tribes who support them in the battle against al-qaeda. then you had an iraqi government that was a shi'a government and then you had maliki become prime minister. what happened with the maliki government that so infuriated

the sunni tribes men in the anwar province that they were more willing to deal with isis than with the maliki government. >> well they got nothing from baghdad after being essentially in the fight against al-qaeda. and they got nothing, they got persecuted. people talked to us about regular raids. if something happened, the young men would be rounded up and sometimes tortured by the baghdad government. so isis is rapid and easy spread. it wouldn't havea been impossie without such a huge population being disinfranchised. >> rose: what was it about isis, though. i mean, they had to see the threat of isis. >> the christian refugees we interviewed said they were great to begin with. >> rose: to begin with. >> they were very plight to us, we said hello in the street. but within three or four weeks the true colors started to show.

youngss girls started to be abducted. >> rose: what surprised you about this in iraq? >> well i mean we had been in afghanistan the fall before and so that was a nice little, you know, little bit of preparation and we were there for a month. with all these stories, what surprises me is there's just a lot of down time. there's a lot of time where you're just like waiting anticipating what's going to come and what's coming is the most intense couple hours of your life. for me, i'm sitting around and i'm over and over again just thinking man, what's this going to be like. and you're kind of excited that it's not happening and when it does, you g=]1ñ so i would just look at ben through it. it actually helps a lot of having him for sure. >> rose: so what's the status today? we'll show an excerpt in a minute but what's the status today on the ground in iraq. >> well, we have the kurds have had success against isis fighting for their own

independent state not iraq. >> rose: part of this covers the kurds. >> you have the iraqi government controlling the areas which was controlled by the militia and sometimes commanded by iran. we actually bumped into -- we were sitting there waiting for this separation to begin. i was sitting outside the mosque just waiting. i saw him and there were several others walked right in front of me. >> rose: white hair, does he have gray hair and a beard. >> yes. very close cropped hair. i suddenly thought he's not happy to see foreign reporters. i kind of hid my face. and he didn't see me but then he heard that we were there. his men could put a bullet in your head as soon as this thing starts so there was cross fire. >> rose: you got out of there. >> we had to. >> rose: we talk about the sunni and we talk about -- the

iraqi shi'a militias. are they iraqis or a portion of them iranians? >> a portion of them are iranians but most of them are iraqis. >> rose: the terms are within iraq. >> yes. >> rose: so they grew. do they coordinate at all with the regular iranian army? >> no. they are commanded by senior iranian generals. when to create is harder than expected. >> rose: they're taking to crete. >> they pulled back in u.s. strikes. >> rose: the fact is without the u.s. air strikes they might not have been able to do it. >> they were still very angry the u.s. was involved. and the militia were saying if the u.s. returnsájuz iraq we wil fight. there's no coordination, they are openly hostile. >> rose: there's no coordination through the iraqi government.

>> the iraqi government is giving them all of the stuff which we give to them. so we are indirectly supporting an army who are often guilty of the same crimes as isis. >> rose: we're talking about sunni fighters. let's take a look. this is the sunni fighters in the anwar provinces. here it is. >> do you think you can hold on [indiscernible]. >> they were saying now these

attacks -- >> rose: what's the closest call you had there. >> they had two or three snipers in those trees that were firing fairly accurately. it looks bad. i wasn't too concerned that day. what you see from that clip is yes they need equipment and ammunition but they really need some training as well. you got guysrifles. >> all i could think too there were 50 of them and all firing their weapons at the same time and i'm thinking they're giving away our cover and they're just going to fire and kill all of us. half of them are firing into the sky. >> rose: what's the level -- is another deal. we'll talk about that in a minute. what are the level of the arms they have received from the united states? >> very very -- >> rose: one of their complaints. >> their main complaint. what they have is stolen from isis who stole it from the iraqi

government. >> rose: exactly. we found out when you went there for example they were using weapons even back to the iraqi war. >> yes. or russian weapons. >> rose: we had an interview in this film with the former president and prime minister macbeth because your crew went to the russian naval base in syria.o? what did you learn from that. >> it's interesting because there are jets taking off every five minutes from the russian air base in syria. fully armed with heavy bombs coming back empty every single time. so their bombing campaign is like their bombing campaign in russia. they've killed over a thousand. they bombed 20 medical facilities already. >> rose: these are russian fighters. >> yes. of course they are interested in popping off assad rather than decreasing isis. >> rose: which they respond to. >> and there are fighters --

they would rather kill them there than to come home. >> there's more action in iraq. everywhere we went, there was fighting. in afghanistan it's really mostly in the south. >> rose: like what's the response to the coverage? are you finding that they arere? >> the people on the ground? >> rose: they want to story, they're not getting weapons, people think they have weaponsay and not getting weapons. i asked american officials about it yes this was true but it's changed now. and some people will say it's gotten better. >> definitely they're getting more air strikes which they are grateful for. they were open to having us there and accommodating. the militia were very wary. there was no -- >> rose: none.

local journalists from iraq. >> they were with us at the base waiting to cover. everybody was kicked out before the operation started. >> rose: in a different government was the iranian and the iraqi was such a long and devastating war fighting each other. saddam was in the dictator. >> yes. i'ite opposition groups in the iraqi had such good relations with iraq. were in exile. not predicting, nothad such an t saddam iraq. ryan as you mentioned before did see that coming and made a lot of progress of negotiating. they cooperate over -- >> rose: what impressed you about ryan crocker. >> everyone now knows it's a mess. the question is, is iraq today worth when it was under saddam.

one takes a breath and you think he's going to do a big change and argue back and he just completely opened up. it's one of the best interviews i ever had the pleasure of sitting through. he was the most thoughtful -- >> rose: and intelligent. >> at the end you couldn't tell if they were republican or democratic of democrat. >> rose: they worked with general petraeus and there was diplomacy working hand in hand. >> yes. as you said it was successful although the conditions for isis was still there. they hadn't been addressed. >> rose: in fact isis came out of al-qaeda in iraq. the leader of isis was forming a deputy to(i al-qaeda in iraq. >> and ejected it. >> rose: we had them in prison. >> yes. >> rose: what do they say the isis fighters about -- do they talk about him, do they know? >> they didn't talk about him

directly but they believe what he's saying and they believe they'll take over the world. >> rose: the obama station would like to say look we're shrinking the amount of territory they hold. and that territory they hold is their recruiting tool to say come join this wonderful caliphate which comes right out of the quran. >> they are. >> rose: the way they interpret it. >> they are in a territory they can show but the recruitment numbers are still very good. >> rose: what is the recruitment, what is it they use? >> i find it difficult to understand but they are the cool newy kids on the block. >> rose: romantic adventure or religious romantic adventure. >> if you're a cytopat who -- psycho path who wants to be a bully. >> rose: you have no sense or connection with anybody and somebody comes along if it isn't

gangs. >> in the first interview people said it was mass survival rather than ideology. i think what matters to me is we have them leading comfortable lives and thinking this is what they should be doing and they will succeed fairly soon. >> rose: let me make sure i understand this. ron crocker said to you in this film, iraq is better off under saddam. >> yes. and then i said is iraq today more likely to be the source of a terror attack against the u.s. or less. he said i saw no threat from iraq under saddam. now it's not a case of if it's a case of when. >> rose: of a terror attack. >> they have the capability pre 9/11 they could think of. >> rose: what is that. paris was just the beginning. >> it was before paris. he pretty much predicted paris. and of course you have5! the san

bernardino attack as well that inspire isis without any operational link. >> rose: where is the former of the -- organization is he in iran or iraq. >> he's in iraq. >> rose: he's in iraq. >> yes. >> rose: does he play a significant role. >> yes, he's in the frontline. he's side by side with -- >> rose: this is a shi'a militia, one of the three groups that ben and jackson went to see. here it is. >> we were able to meet up with one of the most notorious shi'a militia. they were preparing to retake the city of crete from isis. it was taken from a town they had recently recaptured. these are all american supplies. humvees. >> we didn't just see u.s. supplied weaponry we also saw

iranian weapons where his fighting loyalty lay.uu met with the leader of the organization. how do you think isis will be defeated in iraq. >> rose: there you go. tell us who he is. >> so he fought iran. he said he and the organizion like to torture and kill people with a drill. and he's smiling and nodding and saying i can't comment on those classified documents but then said many rooks -- iraqis told me yes that's what he used to

do. >> rose: what is his allegiance. >> many would say iran. >> rose: iran. >> yes. think you could argue thehe shi'ite militia and the -- are equally effective. if you are looking for the good guy in the region then the -- are the good guys. they treat the prisoners very well, the u.n. red cross the day we were there. that's the difference between the two. >> rose: why do you do this? >> sometimes i ask myself all that time. >> rose: but you're having fun doingwhen i was a little dia producer at the cbs london bureau. i would be put to sleep covering the iran war, shooting in africa. >> rose: it was a good life. >> yes, for sure. the producer. they had their own stories as well and i was just like i want to do that. i didn't know you could get paid to do that.

if it wasn't for him. i asked myself, some of these places. >> rose: is it always different or what you always imagined it would be. is it more intense than you imagined? >> i don't know. i had no idea we would be traveling the way we do and getting five weeks to stay in a country to tell a story properly. you know, when back in the day they had more money and time and they were going all over the world and i thought this was over. >> rose: it is more immediate. >> yes. >> rose: you put this together. but you have, you're shooting these stories, stories i'm familiar with doing this show. and how long did it take you to shoot fighting isis? >> five weeks in the first trip and then ten days on the second trip which was december last year. >> rose: and you come away at the end of it with what conclusion? that iraq will split up into

three. >> you could argue it already has. and what we've achieved -- r baghdad will simply be the head of the shi'ite. >> yes. >> rose: will be head of the sunnis and then the kurds will have their own territory. then they fight over who has oil. >> yes which is going to be a big fight. i can't imagine what will happen for their to be a central government in baghdad that would represent all iraqis at this point. it's interesting, you look at a lot of the world's hot spots0 you can trace them back to the crazy borders. it makes no sense some of these people to be put together in the same country. >> rose: it could fall apart too for that reason. >> in that conclusion we want to achieve the exact opposite what we promised to achieve. certainly not democratic and it is definitely a threat to the u.s. now where it wasn't before. >> rose: let me go back to the question i asked you in the beginning. what was it you were in search of? what question was at the point of the spear for what you wanted

to learn. >> i think three main points. how bad is iraq today. >> rose: and the answer? >> i mean, you know -- >> rose: worse than you expected. >> yes. one part controlled by isis, one part controlled by the kurds, one part controlled by shi'ite militias. it's difficult to imagine how it could be worse. what led to this point. and even if isis was defeated in iraq what happens next because what happens next could be just as bad. >> rose: did it change in terms of what you knew going in and what you saw and how you came out just in terms of your role in this process? did it change what you assumed7? >> it was sad. we all know people who fought in iraq or afghanistan and seeing it's such a mess there.

what is this for. tried not to ask them. >> rose: and paris asked that and people ask that. >> yes. >> rose: and after all that money and treasure. >> the two towns in afghanistan we covered as well have fallen to the taliban. >> rose: make the point here which is in your film. the point is some of these fighters say, you know, you accuse us of all these things but you're doing the bombing that has no respect for women and children. let's their point and that's what they are taught to believe or they believe. >> yes much it's difficult to argue with someone that collateral damage and civilian casualties are different to what they are doing. >> rose: you don't say people are dead indiscriminately. >> and now it's common to hear not only that was intentional, it's common to hear in iraq we were told many times that isis was created by the u.s. people even said i've seen the u.s. dropping supplies to isis.

>> rose: why do they believe that. >> it's such a mess. incompetence isn't a good enough reason. >> rose: syria, is that next? >> no. i think back to afghanistan next. syria is so difficult now you have to go in and out the same day. >> rose: how do you go in from beirut. >> turkey. there are a thet work of rebels that can get you out. i been going in and out with the same rebels for two years. it was a friend of his, took him around got some great stuff and pictures. on the way out they offered money for him and the commander decided to go for it. they handcuffed him and put him at the back of a boot. killing, very badly beating from the escape. >> rose: they brought him in. >> it wasand then they, after ay night and some local other rebels came and saved them. before they were freed the

rebels shot them. the disturbing is i understand the logic. you come in and do this stuff and post it to the world and it doesn't help us whatsoever. if i sell these for $100,000 i could buy new weapons and you would be helping us. you could see the logic. this was chilling. >> rose: thank you. >> thank you. >> rose: chalk for coming. the special report fighting isis airs on hbo this sunday january 31st at 10:00 p.m. kicking off vices fourth season on hbo. nice seeing you. thank you for joining us. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

ik on tomorrow's pbs newshour judy woodruff reports from iowa the latest on the race for the whitehouse in the final days before the caucuses.

the following kqed production was produced in high definition. >> and their buns are something i had yet to find anywhere else. >> and you can come to my house to dinner. >> breaded, fried, gooey, lovely. >> in the words of arnold schwarzenegger, i'll be back. >> you've heard of a connoisseur, i'm a common sewer. >> i may have to ward off some