welcome to kqed newsroom. coming up on our program, meet the director of the oscar-nominated film "inside out." plus, a troubling underground existence on the mexican border. first, governor jerry brown talks to us about criminal justice reform and where he stands on questions of crime and punishment. this is brown's fourth term as governor. during his first tenure almost 40 years ago he signed a tough on crime bill that he calls an abysmal failure. >> prison is torture. while he's there you can give him training, teach him how to read, write, fix cars, maybe get some skills but it is a very coercive element. when you introduce

rehabilitation and you over emphasize that concept, it often turns into being a very manipulatory, exploitive, discriminatory tool. >> many say that led to decades of explosive growth in our prison population. now the governor is pushing a ballot measure to allow them to get out of prison sooner. it would change who decides whether young defendants should be tried as adults or juveniles. scott schaeffer sat down with governor brown to talk about his change of heart. >> governor brown, thanks so much for talking to us. we are, as you know, in the midst of conversation about criminal reform and bipartisan agreement. in comes your proposal for sentencing reform. how do you see it fitting into this larger national conversation? >> well, it fits in in this sense, that as part of a reaction to the 30-year prison building binge. somewhere in the '70s with increasing acceleration to the

'80s and '90s most of the states of many of the countries of the world went on a lock 'em up binge. the increases in many places were as much as 500% far exceeding, far exceeding probably by four times what the crime rate increase was or much less the population. it's a natural reaction to put-back into the system some careful provisions that will incentivize better prisoner behavior. the long, thick sentence where there's no opportunity for rehabilitation, education, mental health treatment, drug treatment, that's a very benighteg approach which is now being reversed and supported by republicans, democrats, republicans and liberals. >> this would undo what you signed the first time.

when you signed it what did you think you were solving? what problem did you think you were solving? >> i was aware that some of the sentences by the parole board, some of the decisions, came up with disparate results so someone would be kept a lot longer than others and people were alleging racial disparities. there was also -- i had started to try to put more certainty into the process. i thought clarity and certainty of prison time would operate as a deterrent. my sentencing measure was relatively modest, but right after it was signed the legislature started increasing prison time. for example, murder one was seven to life and then it went from 25 to life and then they added enhancements of 25 and even 40 years. so now you get sentences of 60, 70 years, whereas, before you had 1/10 of that. there was an overreach. sometimes when you have a problem, you over correct.

and what happened here was not just that we switched from an indeterminant to determinant sentence, but every year thereafter the next four governors added things called enhancements. there are now 400 separate enhancements, they're going to add up to 25 years, each one of them. and now you have over 5,000 separate criminal provisions. this is unheard of when you really compare the ten commandments, stayed at 10 and the law of california which is basically stable for 60 years and then they went on kind of a motorized legislative rampage where you just got more and more time, more and more prisons and the result was a greater threat to public safety. because families were broken up and when people came back they had no rehabilitation, no skills and were very disoriented. >> you mentioned race. that was one of the reasons you

felt there was some racial dispariti disparities. what's your view much race in the criminal justice system? >> race is very much connected to life opportunities and economics and so those at the bottom are predominantly people of color and they're the people in our prisons. now there are some caucasians and there are some people that may be a bit middle class, but the vast majority of people locked up are poor, are black, are latino, or asian in certain cases. so, look, the idea this is kind of a one-note system now. time in a cell, time in a cell. now what we need is a more sophisticated system of restorative justice, drug treatment, melt monitoring. different ways of restructuring

the thinking and reintegrating the offender because they all come back anyway. when you put them in the cell and give them no incentive for them to take charge of their lives by getting an earlier -- an earlier freedom date, then they join gangs, they use dope, they get into violence and there's no way to control the prisons because there's no internal incentive. it brings back the ability of a con viktd to say if i play by the rules and get out of the game, i can actually get home earlier. and then you add to that, if i take high school training, if i take vocational training, if i do college, mental health, drug treatment, all of that helps. so what we're doing is building a system of internal inseptember tifs to be better citizens when they inevidence bring come back to society. >> one of the other 24i7ks i think this ballot mesh ufr would do, it would take the decision

whether to try them as adults, juveniles, away from the prosecutors and give it to the judges. why do you think that's important? >> because the job of a prosecutor is to prosecute, not judge. whether someone 14, 15, 16, 17 should be tried in the juvenile court or transferred to the adult court is a judicial question. let the judges decide. >> you have appointed 300 or so. you've appointed more people who were public defenders or have other experience. more so than any recent governor. why? >> first of all, we never had a tradition that said to be a judge you have to be a district attorney. that developed probably in the '90s. the judges are suppose the to be independent. you want judges with commercial background, you want judges with

a prosecutorial background, city attorney. you want a diversity. i've tried to look at the merits. i think most people would say that the quality of the bench is very good and many of those i have appointed. >> how concerned are you about the d.a.'s office being against it? how concerned are you about this being and you being portrayed as soft on crime? >> that is the line. this was an old story. my father ran for attorney general. his republican opponent took out a full page ad in the san francisco examiner with a hypodermic needle trying to portray my father as the friend of dope dealers. that was in the '50s. so, yeah, there will be campaigns, but i've been around a lot of campaigns and i think people want fairness, they want public safety. so i think you're going to hear a lot of hyperbolic rhetoric,

but the fact is the provision that i'm proposing is essentially what we're already doing under the three judge panel for which no one's really complained. secondly, it is a modest adjustment in that it gives incentives of serving a full term in people that can demonstrate they're ready to go back into society. doesn't mean they will. syria is not getting out. he was denied this last week the same along with a lot of people. >> you mentioned the ten commandments earlier and you have jesuit training. i wonder how your religious faith, teachings, thoughtfulness about religion and justice, how has that affected the way you think about all of these things? >> i certainly have been brought up with the idea of forgiveness and redemption. the essence of christianity is

redemption. that's jesus christ the redeemer. that's what it's all about. those who say once you commit certain crimes you are forever for 10, 20, 30, 50, 80 years, that's it. that really does run afoul of not only christianity but our whole american tradition. and just flan common sense because the proposition of the das is we know on the day we charge or on the day the judge sentences, everything that can occur, we know all we need to know for the next 50 years. all i'm saying is you might have had some very good ideas there in the charges and the verdict that came in, but only the passage of timonen change, women change and those changes ought to be accommodated so that we can open up the cells for new people that are even more

dangerous. >> redemption is an idea that you've just mentioned, and i'm wondering if -- you say signing the law was a mistake. i'm wondering if now this is a kind of redemption you're trying to fix for yourself. fix a mistake. >> when i look at it, i think the mistake in the sentencing is that it takes away all incentive for a man to take charge of his life even though now i see the sentencing as having real infirmities. that law if they left it there would have been very different than the law we had. the law we have literally has been encumbered with thousands and thousands of new legal prescriptions and fair. it's made it a danger to public safety and it has made it extremely hard to administer. >> you were governor 35 years ago and you have an unusual opportunity to look back at now,

including this law you signed in 1976. what is it, able to be able to look back, we live in a different time now. >> so i would say this, that we do have more wisdom. over time the world changes and we have to adapt and we have to learn from the past how to make our present better. and i can say this. law tends to get complicated. last question. what's your take on the presidential election? >> i think the turbulence, the polarization, the completely discarding views unfortunately are reflective of the american society. >> if he's in fear, trying to seek the presidency? >> any regrets you're not running? >> not really but i think about

it. >> not really. >> just a zblil turning to the california/mexico border, a troubled underworld has officials concerned. there's a network of sewage tunnels live. >> many say they're homeless because they've been deported from the u.s. we have the report from san diego public television station kpbs. he's known as chapo. the mexican drug lord because of his short stature, but the similarities pretty much end there. he recently rescued this cat

from the side of the road. >> chapo is one of hundreds of migrants living inside the tijuana tunnels. officials say the migrants were hurting tourism and committing crimes. many were using heroin or methamphetamine after being deported from the u.s. where they had families and jobs but some, like chapo, said they don't do drugs at all.

even those shipped to him. >> since then, police continue arresting them, placing them back there rehab or buses out of town. this is a canal. sometimes it can prove fatal. >> translator: the canal is 234r57ged by one of tijuana's busiest highways. just this month those two were killed trying to escape police. in a nearby part of the canal on a recent friday night about 40 words. a migrant who called himself carlos said he was run over by a car. he was injured so badly he couldn't walk.

another man had a large gash on his forehead. back in the tunnel he remembers his most recently killed friends. >> he says sometimes the police

arrest migrants when they're standing on the street, trying to find work in construction or other hard labor. the police chief denies arresting migrants who are trying to find work. police detain only the migrants who are committing crimes, including sleeping in a canal which is federal property. he plans to flush everybody out of the canal. >> there's a phase 2, phase 3. we're going to take over the whole ravine on tijuana. >> he's ordered 14 all terrain vehicles to patrol the canal. he expects them to arrive any day now. >> it's a no man's land. it's easier to buy drugs, sell drugs and obviously consume drugs. >> when asked about alleged police beatings, migrants file complaints so they won't investigate. >> he says police can't be blamed for the migrants who die crossing the highway.

he says those arend the influence of substances, not being provoked by police. back in the tunnels chapo says experience has shown them when to time their visits. he says it's when the police come that though panic. in chapo's opinion, the current strategy of flushing the migrants out of the canal makes life so difficult for them that they have no choice but to turn to petty crimes.

>> he says he doesn't think tijuana officials will ever succeed in clearing the canal of homeless migrants. yet bloodstains on the highway suggest the dieing struggle. >> a tough situation for all involved. well, now to something lighter. the oscars are around the corner. anger, disgust, joy, fear and sadness. we all know those feelings. in the animated film, inside out, those emotions are portrayed as unique individuals living inside our heads. this is produced by pixar films. it is up for two academy awards. joining us is the director of inside out, pete doctor. thanks for coming in. >> thanks for having me.

>> congratulations on the latest oscar nominations. this brings your total to eight in all, i believe. >> eight nominations, yes. >> does it feel as good as the first time. >> yeah, it's always a complete like, what, how did i get here? it's very fun. >> you know, my daughter was eight at the time when we saw "inside out" and we both loved the movie. it was a wonderful cross generational kind of movies. where do you get your inspiration from? >> this case i started with my daughter who was about 11 when i started on this project. did you ever see the film "up"? >> yes. it won an oscar. >> thanks. my daughter did the voice of young ellie. it's like america but south. do you remember that sort of spirited kid? >> i do. >> my daughter was a lot like that character. then she turned 11 and things started changing. very familiar to me, too, because i went through the same thing. that childhood to adulthood transition is difficult.

that's what sparked the whole movie. so your daughter was, again, inspired "inside out." she inspired "up." >> "monsters inc." was inspired by my son. i was all about work. she knew what she was getting into it. but, you know, we would spend long hours at work. now suddenly we had a kid. i was like, wait, i want to be at home but i still want to be at work. that's what became the story of sullivan and monsters, inc. being a parent, who you are as a person gets into the work. there's not been really anything i can think of that's ineffected me more than being a parent. >> well, let's see how some of that experience affected "inside out." >> okay. >> we have a clip. >> it was amaze, just riley and

me forever. >> for three seconds. >> oh, hello. i'm joy. can i just -- if you could -- i don't know how to fix that. >> so i'm curious. what kind of kid were you? you're from minnesota? >> uh-huh. >> i lived in minnesota for some time. >> you did? >> for four years. i have a little bit of familiarity with that area. >> i was a kid who was pretty quiet, pretty shy. i spent a lot of my time on my own drawing. i think it was my social awkwardness that got me into this business. it was easier for me to draw someone versus talk with them. that's the social interaction. that's kind of where i came from. parlay that go into movement. i loved when i figured out how

to do flip books like in the corner of your math book or something, which i wouldn't recommend for kids at home because you have to erase all of that. if you get like a 50 cent piece of post-it notes, you can make a nice flip book. that's what got me into animation. >> what were some of the challenges of making "inside out." how do you leave behind the humor and the joy? some of the scenes were intense for adults. >> as we start making these movies, to be honest, i'm being selfish. i want to find some interest in this and go, all right, i'm going to work on this film for four or five years. there better be something compelling, interesting, engaging for me to continue to be interested in it. we almost focused to adults first knowing that kids are going to see it. we can't put in anything that's

inappropriate or not understandable or what have you. it's really -- that's our process. >> in "toy story," the character buzz lightyear you made of yourself. >> it would be disingenuous for me to claim anything. you are collaborating with all of these people. i was the supervising animator for "toy story" and you would copy the expressions of the characters. >> buzz light year's expressions, some of them were from you? >> yes. >> you started at pixar when you were 21, a day after you graduated from college. right? how did you get that? >> at the time you had only heard about pixar.

it wasn't like i hope i get a job there. it was kind of like, pix what? i grew with the company. this is before we had made any feature films. they were just start to go do commercials, grow with the company. a lot of times people say, i would love to work with pixar. i would say, if you find a smaller studio you'll have to do the design work, story work i did for "toy story." >> what's next in the pipeline for you? >> next at the studio we have "finding dori" which comes out and it's a sequel of ""finding nemo."" i'm back in development working with jonas rivera who produced "up," "inside out" and another original thing. >> where do you see the future of animated films? will we see big changes or minor

tweaks here and there in the next five to six years? >> i had my first year story guy and he had a story at pixar. he used to say, it's called show biz for a reason. part show, part biz. a lot is determined by what they want to see. where are our audiences looking. if they want more action adventures, you'll probably get more of that. for me, i'm hoping as pixar has, we can continue to provide the boundaries. it's a genre -- sorry, it's not a genre, it's a medium. animation could do horror movies, science fiction, any number of things. hopefully we will. >> i get a feeling it will be fabulous regardless what have you decide. thank you for coming in. >> thanks for having me. >> eight oscar nominations. phenomenal. pete with pixar. that is it for us. thanks so much for watching.

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