. >> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with tina fey starring in a new fillm called whiskey tango foxtrot. joining here lorne michaels the producer and robert carlock the writer. >> it is a theme in the book, this idea that people get addicted to this adrenaline lifestyle and for sure kim in the movie, yeah, she's gone over there thinking she's going to go for three months, she stayed for three years, she finds herself like a junkie chasing the next story, the next victory and starts to realize maybe it's a dangerous lifestyle to live forever. >> rose: we continue with joes noero, "the new york times" con you will nis, his book is called indentures, the rebel against the ncaa. >> i have a salary cap, whether it is a $25,000 minimum for every player and that leaves half the cap to recruit. i don't mean to be so

complicated. but the essence of the idea is that there is nothing wrong, there-- it is d-- you are mentally blocked on this. there is nothing wrong with using money as happens with every other student on the university, as a means to attract players. there is nothing wrong with that. there is nothing immoral about it. it's okay for lebron, it's okay for could bee, that went directly from high school to the pros. and yet show it's immoral for 18 year old kids. by the way, i also think they should have agents. >> rose: we conclude with more of my conversation from the fall of 2015 with tim cook, the c.e.o. of apple. >> we're seeing people say wait a minute, the-- products that our employees want are iphones and i pads and macsment and so the most forward thinking cios are very much thinking give people what they want. give them products that make them more productive, that empower them. >> tina fey, robert carlock and

lorne michaels plus joe nocera and tim cook when we continue. funding for charlie rose has been provided by the following: and by ploomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. whiskey tango fongs trot is a new film starring tina fey t is based on journalist kim barker's acclaimed 2011 memoir, the taliban shuffle strange days in afghanistan and pakistan. tina fey stars as a cable news copy writer who outpens her life when she volunteers to become a war reporter in afghanistan.

richard broady calls the film a brisk and blustery comic drama. here is the trailer for whiskey tangor-- whiskey tango foxtrot. >> are you okay, ma'am. >> i got to pee. >> let's go five, media access must be dumping out. >> no, i'm just getting my pants on. >> the network needs reporters on the grown in afghanistan and you are the unmarried personnel in this bureau. kim, are you going to be joining in. >> the travel or the crying. >> how many people do you need? >> she says welcome to afghanistan. >> this is where the foreign reporters meet. welcome to the fun house. >> oh my god, so nice to have another woman in the house. >> in afghanistan, you are a star, in new york you are like six, seven, here you are nine, borderline ten. >> what are you here, like a 15?

>> yeah. >> huh. >> miss baker, this is an extreme environment. >> down, down. >> i have seen people with actual experience make bad decisions here. >> you should let me intrer view you. >> i do not know you, how can we get to know each other. >> this is excellent. >> probably can i do this. >> we are all here for a reason. >> what is your reason. >> i just wanted out of my job, out of my mildly de pressing boyfriend. >> what are we doingk kim. >> wanted to blow everything up. >> that is the most american white lady story i've ever heard. >> look, i believe go big or we go home. >> i need a story. >> i need to get something on the air. >> it's too dangerous. don't you think that would be great, that kind of exposure. >> pretty good for you too. >> they tried to shoot us. >> .

>> whooo! >> what happened? >> the usual, kabul happened. >> today kabul's first licensed female driver hits the road. >> that sucks for women. >> joining me the film star tina fey, robert carlock and one its producers lorne michaels. i'm pleased to have all of them here. so how did this get started? >> well, i'm almost embarrassed to admit that i became aware of the book because someone forwarded me the times review in which they said kim barker presents herself almost as a tina fey like character. so then i got the book. >> your first book. >> my first book and i had someone read it to me. and so then the book was really

good and really funny and interesting. and well written and well observed and about a woman in this insane environment, having these darkly comic experiences. >> rose: so did you turn to robert, your writing business producer partner. >> i went to lorne first and said i think this might be a movie. >> and i said-- . >> rose: what did you say, wise man? >> i said that i knew paramount was looking for a taliban comedy and we would probably be the first. >> better hurry. >> yeah. >> rose: grad brai called up sand said i need a taliban comedy. >> we have to beat ben stiller to this. >> rose: so you bought the book rights. >> ansett out. i said i knew that robert was the only person smart enough i knew to do all the research necessary not only to adapt the book but to do the research about the military and afghan culture and the news business and all the things that were required of the adaptation. >> and you like kim barker. >> i do, yeah, she's really

smart. >> rose: you changed it to kim baker. >> budget cuts. >> there were no rs in the entire movie if you notice. >> what does that mean? >> whiskey tango foxtrot-- foxto the. >> rose: is this what it is like, a writing session at snl. >> a little like this but 16 hours and eventually a fist fight. >> and with more food. >> rose: anmore coffee and what else. >> exactly. >> rose: so is it a comedy? is it a drama? is it what? >> yeah. >> rose: is it history? >> i think before things were just sold as comedies or just as action pictures, you know, when i was very young, we saw the movie mash and i don't know how you describe it. whether it was a comedy or drama or whatever. it's good and i think this is good too. >> rose: you went to new mexico to make it. and the cast. >> incredible. >> rose: incredible.

>> yeah. billy bob thornton playing the general in the movie, martin freeman playing a scottish photographer. margo robie plays an idol. >> rose: she is 15 and you're ten. >> that is generous, by the way, having just seen her at the oscars. it's like 20. >> maybe 18. >> 18 to 20. >> rose: did you watch mash when were you my age. >> you know, it's funny. i did. i watched mash. i wamped and reread catch 22 lz. >> rose: looking for rhythm? >> looking for permission to do the kind of movie that lorne is talking about. kim's book obviously gave a lot of that freedom to say okay, these are people living in unusual circumstances and sometimes dire circumstances but funny things still happen. they still say funny things. >> rose: especially in that kind of circumstances. >> i would think. >> rose: parties are different, everything else is different. >> you want the tone right. you want the people who lived it to like the movie and say that's the way it was.

and you know, and i think-- . >> rose: have you heard from people who lived it, kim, for example. >> kim, yeah. kim's friends. >> and we had a screening a couple of weeks ago maybe last week. >> rose: does kim in your case kim in your case kim baker get addicted to war? does she find all this so much better than whatever she was doing as a copy writer or producer back in. >> it is a theme in the book. this idea that people get addicted to this adrenaline lifestyle. and for sure kim in the movie, yes, she has gone over there thinking she is going to go for three months. she stays for three years. she finds herself like a junkie chasing the next story, the next victory. and starteds to realize that maybe it's a dangerous lifestyle to live forever. >> rose: what's interesting about it is if you go to any hotel, there is always a designated hotel in a war zone. that's where they all hang out. >> yeah. >> rose: you see the same

people. they had have gone from sar yaifo. >> and at the end, they have all, they're closer to those people on a certain way in the same way that you know you would hear about army buddies growing up. and i think that once you have been through that kind of experience, you have more in common with the people you are working with than probably anybody else or at least you can't talk about what you just went through with any other group of people. >> one thing, a number of people kim included when i spoke to them about what this experience was like and about what that addiction is like. one aspect of that addiction that a number of people mentioned, is they get addicted to not having to live a regular life. you can say oh no, i'm not going to that cristening in new jersey because i'm in baghdad. and that becomes-- i'm being extremely important right now. exactly. and they are. and that is. >> dexter who i mentioned earlier is a great war reporter. he's off all the time. he can not, and seems to me, resist going there. and i love the story.

and know he's good and want to know what you do well. and that's part of the. >> you are aware who else is there and who else is you know, has a deadline and who else is going to do the story. and also from all those other countries as well. so it has got a flavor to it that's-- and they're all have nothing in common with the local population. >> uh-huh. >> rose: an there's competition among reporters and in your case it's mar mar go robie's case. >> she plays a reporter who was someone that my character idolizes when she first gets there. and they become fast friends but then there is a healthy competition that eventually turns into maybe a less healthy competition. towards the end. she starts to realize that tonya is putting herself and others in danger in ways that kim is not good for anybody. >> rose: take a look at this. this is a clip. this is where kim is

meeting-- marco robie. >> here it is. >> can i ask a favor, kim. >> absolutely, feel free to say no. >> yeah, sure. >> i hate to even bring it up am i feel so rude even ask asking this. >> fine. >> ask i use your security guy? >> oh. by all men means. >> don't just say that to be polite. >> even nick. >> no, that would never happen, so you're good. >> you could have nick, you are seriously. >> thank you, oh, that's nice. >> cuz you're like seven, six, seven, in new york. >> yeah. >> you are a nine, borderline ten. >> what are you here, like a 15. >> yeah. >> huh. >> way back when in the late 1990s when she was at snl can you see who you think will go to the screen? t that just should ever be setan next to the word writer.

>> you sound like my mother. >> tina had been a performer before she got there. and she came in as a writer and rose up pretty quickly. >> waiting to perform. >> no, i think certainly not annoyingly. >> rose: do you see it early, whether they have had-- whether they have been a performer or not? >> yes. but you also can see confidence. you can sort of see when people have had enough time on stage or are feeling good about how they are out there. >> rose: but i'm thinking even someone like conan. >> yeah. >> rose: you saw something even though he had been a writer and not a performer. >> he had been sort of in the groundlings and things like that. but his dream was always to be a performer. where robert's dreams have all been met now. >> yeah. >> have they been met? >> i don't what to have this sound like it being just a writer is not just great.

and so if you have that skill and so if you had that skill as much astina and seth and all the people that we know. >> i think it's whether or not you enjoy performing. people are very good at it without don't really enjoy it. >> rose: like? >> comedy is filled with people who are really funny and miserable all the time. >> rose: really? >> in life or-- it isn't a thing that brings them joy. they do it. and they're good at it. but they're not fun to be around or-- and comedy is probably too important to be left to professionals. so when you are around people who are funny, the thing that makes-- the most fun is when are you around people who are funny, they are kind of funny. and nothing makes people who do comedy laugh more than other people around them being funny. you like that. >> rose: you said adam mccay was that way. >> it's very funny, in the room. funniest person in the room. >> that is what they said, the

funniest person in the room. >> and adam brought tina to the show. >> adam gave me my job, brought me so to snl as a writer. we were in chicago at the same time and he was on stage. >> rose: when are you the funniest person in the room s it simply off-the-cuff funny. >> yeah, in adam's case. a bottomless wealth. >> it also helps when are you adam's size. >> are you going to be heard. >> a little intimidation. >> you are already playing a character. >> rose: do you want to direct films. >> do i want to direct fims. >> repeat the question. >> rose: charlie is going to be cut out of this, just restate the question here, answer. >> tina just said to restate the question. i assumed it was going to be just me. >> rose: why did you say that? so you could use it without me. >> i was repeating the question so i could process the question a little bit. >> rose: people always do that. >> i'm sure. i would like to direct a movie-- . >> who would do that, he has a bad earpiece. >> not a presidential candidate. we know that. have i directed a few television shows and enjoy it but it does

eat you up. i like the idea of directing, it would have to cost zero dollars. i wouldn't want anyone looking over my shoulder and wanting their money back. lorne-- . >> rose: directing will happen but not costing zero dollars. >> no. >> rose: is weekend update great training for many things, yes. for joke writing, i remember when i started working on weekend update when colin quinn was the host and i was a staff writer at snl and a few of us as a favor were pulled in to just to try to write extra jokes because they had some guys writing joke. and to try to write a joke that is a contained joke in and of itself that is not just attitude, it is a very difficult thing. so that is a great thing. robert was the producer when jamie and i did it, so you can speak to this too. but i think also the thing that is the amazing gift about weekend update is you sit in front of the camera every week and you tell america hi, i'm tina fey.

and you just beat it, and then the cast are working so hard but they're in like wigs an noses and even now as a viewer sometimes i'm like is that kyle or-- who is that? and but i know joe, they tell me their names every week. >> the thing about weekend update at snl which sin tensely competitive environment, it is a little group, a little island within the show where the five of us, six of us knew we were going to get our ten minutes, our nine minutes. >> it's also. >> or sometimes 12. >> it was sort of the design of the show that that would be the second start. because there were shows that ended at 11:30 and movies that ended at midnight. so if you were just tuning in, could you catch that. and so the audience is already warmed up. the studio audience is already there. you know what kind of house it is. which makes it much easier than opening the show. >> rose: if you want to see political sat tire where do you see it other than saturday night live?

>> well, i mean, certainly on the daily show and certainly key key & peele were doing really good stuff. >> jon oliver, of course. but they are doing it in a news fore mat. i'm trying to think of. >> sketch. >> i think that there is something about who is-- whether there is a certain kind of likability that there was, with will ferel playing george w or dana playing. >> rose: the father. >> yeah, or dar il playing clinton there is something that in order for it to work, there has to be-- there has to be some charm. you can't editorialize. you have to play-- and bring the person to life. so if you are just editorializing them and you disapprove of them and you don't like them and you are sort of pointing at that in your performance, it won't work. so in a sense you have to commit to making the person likable

even though whatever you feel personally isn't that and trust that the writing will make the other part clear. >> rose: so he is there. so was it easy? were you, was that the end goal to find whatever you thought, something about this person charming or likable? >> with sarah palin. >> rose: yes. >> i mean we did it, you know, eight years ago now. it was a lot of us learning to figure out what is the joke, like what is true about this whole situation. i always talk about chris rock. i think is he a genius because let's take any situation and try to find something that is true, that no one has noticed and said yet that is what we were trying to do with her and mccain and figure that out. >> i just love that as a viewer to you play her with such good cheer all the time. there is nothing that-- the take is not. >> thanks. she an upbeat kind of person. >> rose: there is a sense that you can't wait to. >> because if you are just scolding, you know, then, if you

are just scolding and we're doing satire here, then there is no laughs and there is no fun in it. it is getting to make your own decision as the audience that sort of what we are encouraging as opposed to here's an idiot. or here's somebody we admire. you know. >> rose: did you ever think you would come back doing her again? >> a long time, at the end of that run eight years ago i thought this is probably-- it is eight years ago, yeah. i am the age now that she was when we started. so last time i played her i look more like her now because i'm. >> and she came back and did it with dar il for-- when palin endorsed trump. >> a few weeks ago. >> on the 40th anniversary, we had that as a question. i mean she was at the 40th anniversary show. and jerry seinfeld was doing q & a and she asked him something. >> she said how much will you pay me to come back and run with

donald trump. >> you know, and that was presh yent. you know. >> rose: roll tape. >> thank you, iowa. oh, i wanted to take a break from my full time career of writing things on facebook, so fly down her and lend my support to the next president of the united states, donald j. trump. >> hey, america, isn't she great. just the total package. smart, legs, yelling, everything. i vn seen a woman this impressive since jeb bush. >> i'm here for all you teachers and team steres, you farmers and charmers, whether you are a mom or 2 broke girls or 3 men and a baby, or a rock 'n' roller, holy roller, pushing stroller, probowler with an abscess molar.

>> she's a fire cracker. she's the real pistol. she's crazy, isn't she? >> rose: that is palin, isn't it? >> i just think about dale making that jacket, the wardrobe team had to make that jacket because they couldn't find it. >> you said about the voice, voice in kreetding character is crucial, yes? >> yes. >> rose: and you just practice, practice, practice. >> i would just watch tapes, watch that thing over and over and really try to match pitch. i tried to do things that i had seen dar il hammond for years, who is so truly gifted at that stuff, and just, yeah. >> rose: you said genius for chris. chris is generally considered to be a genius at this. >> yeah. is he the real thing, yeah. >> rose: is it his ability-- i mean what is it, is it delivery or is it just. >> well, will tell unpleasant things to an audience really who

isn't interested in hearing it, but he will do it with charm and it will be truly funny, you know. and it isn't always popular. he just goes into the areas where it's easy to whip a crowd up who agree with you. you know, or to find what it is they want to hear and tell them that. i think he's-- he's a truth teller, and certainly in both communities. you know. he doesn't spare anyone. >> rose: you gave him high marks for the oscars. >> yeah. >> that was really good. >> rose: this is another clip from the film. here it is. billy bob thornton and tina fey. >> are you familiar with the term 4-10-4, miss bairk t refers to women who are 4s back home become 10es when they ship out and when they are back state side they become 4s again. >> are you saying i'm a four. >> i'm saying you carry an orange backpack. i have seen people with actual experience make bad decisions here. so while you are outside the

wire with my men, you will in no way distract them, understood? >> are you didding me not to sleep with your shoulders. >> not soldiers, marines. are you not here to sleep with or perform jobs of any type on my marines. clear copy, miss baker? >> copy that. >> good. we'll get you out as soon as we find a ride for you. in the mean time captain stern will see to it that you get a wet hooch? >> a what? >> it's a tent with a shower. unless you would prefer a dry hooch. >> i would not, sir. >> rose: what does it say about war, this film say about war? >> you know, i always wanted to make sure that the movie-- this is a movie about the people who are following the policy decision, whether that is a decision that is being made by a media company or by a politicians or what have you. we're not, it's not a movie about big statements.

it's about individuals. and whether these experiences make us stronger or not. >> rose: is writing film different from what you have been doing most of your life? >> it is. yeah. it's much more solitary endeavor which it is the last thing anyone wants to hear about, is the writer alone at the type writer. you know, part of what i love about tv is the close collaboration and this is could lab rattive as well ultimately. but it is different. >> there is also a wonderful speech at the end of the movie which i'm not going to do but where. >> you're allowed. >> it sort of puts it in perspective from, it comes out of the voice of a soldier. and just where we are in the continue yum of, in this ward and afghanistan and the number of people who came before us, the number of countries, the number of armies. it's a boundary. it's a boundary that people have

been fighting over for a long time. >> rose: and the other thing though in terms of what war is, we are reminded of it yesterday at the white house. where the president gives the metal of honor to a member of seal team 6 who had literally jumped on top of something to save them and reached up and sort of grabbed a tourist who was trying to kill him, you know, this extraordinary sense of people who act almost instinctively. they were in a different world. it's not so much thought but instinct and a sense of duty. >> and also americans have been sacrificing themselves, you know, since the beginning of the country. it's sort of we have a strong military tradition and i think the way the military, we showed the movie in washington last week at the memorial. and there were a lot of military people there. and the reaction from them as an audience was different than the

reactions we saw in new york or l.a. or, and it's just, they identify with and can see that, you know, some of it rings true or that we got it right on some level. >> rose: you did. some people look at this and they would ask this question. is it simply acting that turns you on. or would you like to do more things that have more of a dramatic aspect to it. >> i think you know that there are dramatic moments in this movie. but i think any good story is going to have comedy and drama to it because i feel like real life doesn't. i'm always suspect of any movie that is 100% drama all the time. >> where you get your moneyee water of drama. >> realistic to me. >> yeah. but are we also looking at a time because of streaming, because of the success of hbo and showtime and all of that, that the options for people who produce it as the two of you do and you do programming is bigger and better than it's ever been?

>> there are a lot of outlets. there are a lot of-- . >> rose: and for long form and short form. >> platforms. >> and they have a show on netflix. >> yeah. >> where do you go to see netflix. >> you go to your phone. >> rose: oh, wow. much success, thank you. >> thank you for having us. >> thank you so much. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: we'll be right back. stay with us. >> rose: joe nocera is here, he is a columnist for "the new york times." he wrote a provocative piece in 2011 for the paper's sunday magazine. it was titled let's start paying college athletes. the article explored the inequity of the ncaa which generates billions of dollars each year but does not compensate its players. five years later he's cowritten a book that reveals much more about one of america's most powerful institutions and also those leading the charge for change. it is called indentured. the inside story of the rebellion against the ncaa.

i'm pleased to have know nocera always back at this table. >> thank you, charlie. >> the ncaa. >> i grew up. >> we all did, you know. >> they were-- i couldn't wait for everything the ncaa did. because i lover college sports. >> right. and i grew up in providence so i was a huge fan of providence college fryers, that is how i grew up. boston college. and when we were growing up, and even beyond, we were-- you always had the sense that the nca were the white hats and the people they were going after like jerry tarkanian or dale brown were the bad hats, the bad guise. is and then you look into it. and you really start to spend some time on it. and you realize actually in many cases, the ncaa was a power mad ruthless vengful organization. >> rose: let's go through those, power mad. >> yeah, yeah. they, walter byers who made the ncaa powerful in the 1950s,

you know, created an enforcement mechanism. and he also controlled tv rights. and he was aon my way or the highway kind of guy. if you didn't do it his way, you were on the black list. if you said something about the ncaa that they didn't like, this is what happened to tarkanian, by the way. they go after you. they would go after you. >> rose: and look to places where you may be violating rules that they think, or that they created. >> or they could make it up. i know that sounds shocking. when tarkanian went from long beach state to university of nevada las vegas, i don't want to dwell on him, but it is a really good illustration. they opened up an investigation intou nlv nine days after he took the job. now how, how exactly could he have violated their rules in nine days? but they didn't like him. they wanted to get him. and by the way, one of the reasons we know this is because tarkanian litigated for 20 years. so there are deposition records or people under oath who basically said, you know, the vegger said to me we're going to

get him, we're going to run him out of college sports. the head vegger had to admit in congressional testimony that he called tarkanian a rug mer chabt. >> rose: wow. >> and that guy went on to become the head of division 1 at the ncaa. had a very, very long career. it's changed a little. you know, all the criticism in recent years has changed it a little. but it's still has incredible power over the athletes who are basically 18, 19, 20 years old who have no means to really de fend themselve and fight back. >> rose: here are the questions you possed in "the new york times" magazine article. how can the ncaa brietly wreck careers without regard to due process or common fairness. how can it act so ruthlessly to enforce rules that are so petty. and why won't anybody stand up to those outrage us violations of american values and american justice. >> and here we are. >> rose: those are the questions. >> five years later, and that stuff still drives me crazy.

>> rose: this really does make you angry. >> it does. >> rose: more so than business fraud. >> well, i wouldn't go that far. you know. >> rose: just testing. >> i was at this table during the financial crisis. >> rose: yes, were you. >> and i wasn't exactly a wall flower. no you were not. >> it does make me angry. you know why, what happened, i notice this with lauers who get involved in ncaa stuff. you don't expect it. you know, business fraud, volkswagen, you know, this stuff pops up all the time and you become cynical about it. but the first time you are looking at the ncaa and realize there is no due process and they can kind of say anything they want about any athlete and there is nothing the athlete can do, the first time that happens, and you see it, you are shocked. you are just shocked. you can't believe in american institution can operate this way. and out of that shock and my case, at least, comes anger. and the prolog of the book tells the story about a player named ryan boatright.

the real issue wasn't ryan boat ddz right t was the way they treated his mother. a single black mom in aurora, illinois, with four kids. and they're berating her and harassing her and demanding every check she has written for the last four years and the reason is because her ex-conformer boyfriend as an act of ven against called up the ncaa and accused her of a bunch of stuff. >> which weren't true. >> some of it was true but even so, what was true, here is what was true. a friend gave her money so she could accompany her son on her college visits. >> a lot of those rules are crazy things. >> even mark emirate the president of the ncaa has said some of our rules are idiotic. the rule about, you know, if you have a bag el it's okay am if you put cream cheese on it, that's against the rules. they changed that so you now can put cream cheese on a bagel without being against the rules but if you put an egg on it, i am not making this up. >> is mark a lot better, is he

trying to change the ncaa. >> he views himself as a reformer. and you know, he would say, and he has said i'm kind of hamstrung by my membership, i can't do anything without the members agreeing to it. the thing he could do that he doesn't want to do is that the internal culture needs to be blown up. he doesn't need the membership to do that. it needs to become a more compassionate and more common sensical place. >> passionate towards the athlete that makeup up the games. >> absolutely. >> well, i don't go that far. >> i say indentured. there is a difference. >> come on. >> you know, when you use the word indentured, what goes with indentured? >> they are to a large degree shackled. >> because that's what? >> it's different. that means slavery is slavery, they can quit, they can quit the school, quit athletics but-- . >> rose: it's a far reach. >> but they are. >> then why did you use the word

indentured. >> because indentured servants were people who were, you know, indentured to somebody. they got no money. you know, they stayed until their tenure was up. and their boss could pretty much control them. but they could leave. the-- the-- you know, there were three things that are offensive about this. one is everybody else is getting-- all the adults are getting rich. and the players are getting nothing. >> right. >> the rules are. >> the adults are universities, aren't they. >> the adults are coaches. >> rose: but the people getting rich are the universities. >> no, the people that are getting rich-- . >> rose: how much money do you think the university of alabama's success as a football team brings in terms of contribution to the university. >> a lot. >> rose: exactly. >> i don't-- a lot. but nick sabin makes $7 million a year. >> rose: so he's the best at what he does in the world. why not? >> so why shouldn't the players get a piece of that. that is all i'm saying.

>> rose: i assume the university would argue, i haven't looked closely at all the arguments they make, and they are in the book it is the notion that yes, in fact, they are coming here as athletes but they're getting a life experience. and in some cases, in some cases, they will go four years and debt a degree. rarely, in terms of some. we now have one and out but they come and they get something. and that's worth something. >> so what i would say-- here is what i would say to that. 95% of them don't become pro. the bargain the university has made is that we will give you an education and a better life. the university does not live up to that bargain. we all know that. and many, many-- . >> rose: they don't live up to the bargain meaning that if you done play the sport that you were-- you know, that you were sought to play, you don't have an access to the education that the university offers? >> no, they major in eligibility. look at north carolina.

this say painful suct for you. >> rose: i know it is. >> but go ahead. i thought your colume was brilliant. >> if you think that north carolina is the only place in the country that has fake classes so that athletes can get grades to keep them eligible, which teach them nothing,. >> rose: i totally agree with you. >> it's awful. >> rose: it undermines everything. >> so the bargain the the universities make with the students, they don't keep their end of the bargain. and the second thing, most of these athletes, the only window. >> rose: what is that part of the bargain, the university. >> the university is part of the bargain is that you come play for us, we will give you an education and the pros peck of a better life. in football and men's basketball, far too often that bargain is not kept. >> rose: because they did not-- the young athletes did not perform as expected? >> they come from lousy high schools. they are unprepared. they are not-- they an agent once told me many of the

athletes especially come from disadvantaged neighborhoods are as intimidated in the classroom as you would be on the football field. >> rose: i'm sure. >> the university's don't really-- they have academic support and so on and so forth. but they work 50 hours a week-- . >> rose: are you saying to those students, that want to come to university and play and be in the pros, but you are saying to them look, we should just treat you what you are. not interested in an education. you're only coming here because you hope to have a chance at a wonderful life as a professional athlete, and that's why you are coming here. and therefore if we don't provide an education for you, it's all our fault. >> i don't 100 percent think that. i do think that on one of my proposals is that they should have lifetime scholarships. >> rose: that say great idea. how much would that cost a es that idea have with the

university. i think they would encourage that. >> there are schools that are starting to do this. all the guys, they all think they are going to be pros. i understand that, even the guys on the bench, if coach would only give me the chance i would be the starting cornerback. it takes them awhile to figure out that's not going to happen and it takes them awhile to kind of figure out how to deal with college. many of these, first environment, so-- . >> rose: your solution is just pay them. >> that is what you are saying. >> i mow that is the hard part. i say this. >> rose: pay them for what they are but don't try and go way out of your way to educated them, just pay them. >> i think as a matter of fairness they should get some money. as a matter of fairness. and i don't-- . >> rose: i think you ought to be arguing hard that they ought to figure out a way that they can show get through this notion of givek youngality leases some benefit from being at the university. >> i totally agree with you. and i do agree with that.

but i also think as a matter of fairness they should get some money. have i a salary cap. i'm not a complete-- complete market guy. but you know, you've got north carolina just about to spend $25 million for an indoor practice facility for the football team. 25 million dollars. you know, why do they do that? because they want to recruit. because they want to be able to show the glitter and glamor for the high school kids if you come to north carolina, look at this facility. look how amazing. at oregon they have the oregon facility is beyond belief, built by phil knight. i would argue-- that instead of spending hundreds and hundreds an millions of dollars on these facilities, spendz a little to to recruit the athlete. i went to boston university. why did i go to boston university, because they gave me more scholarship money than anybody else. mub was a factor in my decision to go to college. >> rose: so you want to create a bidding war for college athletes. >> absolutely.

with limits, with limits. >> rose: if you have a cap on it, it is a big limit. >> sure. but if kentucky says we'll pay utah and-- and some college that has never made the final 16 says we'll pay you 40. >> but so there is no cap. >> so i have a salary cap where it is 25,000 minimum for every player, and then that leaves half the cap to recruit. now i don't mean to be so complicated. but the essence of the idea is that there is nothing wrong, you are mentally blocked on this. there is nothing wrong with using money as happens with every other student on the university, as a means to attract players. there is nothing wrong with that, there is nothing immoral about it, it is okay for lebron, it's okay for kobe that went directly from high school to the pros. and yet show it's immoral for 18 year old kids. by the way, i also think they

should have agents. >> rose: to represent them between high school and college? >> hockey players-- every hockey player in college has an agent. they don't talk about it, they don't get paid. but when a hockey player comes out of high school in can darks he has a series of very complicated decisions that he has to make about where he is going to go. >> rose: buzz called the ncaa the country's most morally corrupt institution. >> i without say the nra is but ncaa is right up there. >> rose: you mean you see them like you see the nra. >> no, i wouldn't go that far but-- . >> rose: taylor branch says the ncaa should be compared to a plan taition. >> i know that was a powerful statement. but i tell you somebody else without said the same thing, and this is unbelievable. walter byers said it. he is the man who made the ncaa poker withful from 1951 to 1986. and then he turned against it. and he wrote a memoire in which he did overtly compare the ncaa to a plan taition and made a lot

of the same recommendations that people like me and taylor branch are making now. including pay them. >> rose: that say great story. >> well. >> rose: why did he change his mind and say the thing i created is. >> well, i-- so i believe he was the power mad guy. okay. and here is what i think. he was in his 90s when i was working on this book. and i tried like crazy to get him to see me in an interview. i even went through his son. he with not talk to me. this was the only question i what wanted to ask him. why did you change your mind? and he wouldn't answer it. >> my theory. >> rose: what did his son say. >> his son wouldn't tell me either. >> he didn't do swol on this. >> no, i completely failed on this. you are right. >> my theory is that there was a 1984 supreme court decision that took away from the ncaa and biers the power to control television rights for football and gave it to the schools. he used to control the

television rights. and you know could you only be on twice a year and you can only make so much money. and so on. and they seud. >> rose: whenever is he on tv they get a piece of. >> right. so the school seud. the schools won and the supreme court and basically half of biers power, it used to be television enforcement, now only enforcement, he lost half of his power. and he was power hungary. i they he turned against the ncaa in part because he lost a lot of his power. and he felt like-- who instituted the food, university. >> university of oklahoma, university of texas were the prime-- . >> rose: football powers. >> they were the prime drivers. it was a huge, just as pot we are five in the last few years have kind of taken more control, in the old days it was something called the cfl. college football league that made up the big football schools that were fighting the ncaa. >> rose: i said to you former president of the university of north carolina was a great and dear friend of mine. he had a memorial and loved it. he used to think, you know, he used to say to me every six

months y aren't you doing stuff about what is going on in the corruption and college athletics. >> you know, he was in many ways a great man. he founded the night commission which was an effort to try and keep academics first and fore most. but. >> he failed. he failed. and everybody who has tried to either de emphasize sports or keep academics as the primary has failed because football, it's too big a business. there's too much money at stake. and you know, the boards of trustees all think they are jerry jones. they care more about the football team than the history department. >> how about that one. >> how about that, charlie. >> really? >> i've seen it enough times. i've seen it enough times. >> because of what the amount of money it brings in? it's simp loo that. >> and they are boosters too, sure. >> they want to win. everybody wants to win. i don't blame them. i want to win too. >> the freyers are in the top 20 forth first time in ten years, you think i'm not following that. >> yes, i know.

yes, i know. i mean here is what is interesting to me. is whether reform can come out of this. that will really benefit both the university, i mean i would like to see something where fore every scholarship they give to an athlete they have to give to a scholarship to a computer nerd, you know. >> i'm with that. >> the smartest young physicist in high schools today. and give him the best education that he may or she may get that education anyway because there are all kinds of scholarships now, available for gifted students. >> well, reform is tough. the legal system has declared the ncaa rules in violation of antitrust and yet they've been unwilling. the legal system has been unwilling to really overturn anything and really change anything. the union drive which we recount chapter that ben wrote by the way, really, really good chapter about the north western union drive, basically failed. and to tell you the truth, i know this is going to sound even

more radical than some of the other things i said, but the model is a missouri football team from last fall. >> what they did was really amazing and so to be admired. >> the issue was racism on campus. >> the university football team as a unit took a stand. >> that's right. >> and this protest has been going on for six weeks. the football team said we're going to go on strike if something isn't done. the president resigned within 36 hours. you don't think every other college athlete in the country noticed that and thought boy, we really have power. if you want to change the system. >> rose: the question is disef ree university president take notice. >> i'm sure they did. you want to change the system, i know it's hard because they are 18, 19 year old kids and they have their future in front of them. but if one team would refuse to come out for the final four, the system would change in an hour. u n, v almost did it in the 1990s. >> rose: before they got beat by duke. >> exactly right. they had a secret plan to go on strike for the final game and then duke beat them. somebody said-- somebody said

get another way, another way the dukeies have caused trouble. >> rose: there is so much more to this story. and to love joe is to know the passion that he brought to the magazine piece which i assume lead to the book. >> absolutely. >> rose: indentured the inside story against the ncaa written with ben strauss. >> a young kid, young talented "new york times" contributor and he is going to have a big future. >> rose: and so will you. >> if i'm not too old. thank you, charlie. >> rose: back in a moment, stay with us. >> i want to talk about new businesses and markets and technology. that you have, are you in but not in a big way. the business market. in september you announced the i pad pro. >> yeah. >> rose: said to be an initial sal vow even though you make some money in the business market, you are primarily a

consumer product company where is apple going in the business market. >> well, let me explain something that i think is sort of our-- maybe our best kept secret is our-- i keep asking to tell me. >> here say secret. not this-- not the september quarter which we just finished, i can't talk about the results here. but if you back june up for 12 months, the previous 12 months ending in scwhreun, our revenues. >> rose: june 2014. >> ending in june of 2015. >> rose: right, okay. >> our revenues from enterprise were about 25 billion dollars. and so now relative-- . >> rose: is it a company revenues per year is 200 billion. >> is over 200. but still 25 is a serious business, right. and that's if you look at the growth of it, it's coming from a very small number, not very many years ago. and so the growth is incredible. so what are we saying. we're seeing people say, you

know, wait a minute. a product that our employees want are iphones and i pads and mac. and so the most forward thinking cios are very much thinking give people what they want. give them products that make them more productive, that empower them. and we have put a significant emphasis on making sure that we had enterprise features in our operating system. we've been doing that for several years now. and you're seeing it together with our partnership with ibm. and our partnership with cisco. you're seeing this begin to take traction. and i think we're also in the early stages of this. >> rose: but what are you doing? >> we're providing-- . >> rose: selling products that they can use in the business enterprise sector. >> yeah. and they're products that you and i also use and think of them as consumer products. i also think of them as business products because i use them in business as well am but for the majority of people they might say wait, an i pad is a consumer

product but it's not really. it's a business product. it's a consumer product. it is an education product. >> all you are saying is you will introduce consumer products into the buiness market, that saul you are doing. that doesn't sound like an apple challenge to me. >> well, that's not all that we are doing. think about what makes a product work in business. it's the application. it's you have the right application. >> rose: got you. >> and where there has been this explosion of innovation from consumers, the apps that we use every day, the business market was really lagging. there is only a few. and so what we're doing in working with both i'm and cisco is working on vertical applications that are for unique jobs in the enterprise. drk dsh enterprise, so i know this sounds strange but mobility is kind of a new concept for a lot of enterprises. the penetration of mobility in the enterprise is still very small. and so when we look at this, we see an enormous opportunity to change the way people work.

just like the way we change consumers lives, we would like to change and make better people's daily job-- daily work and businesses. >> and the i pad proplays into that. >> the i pad prowill be a part of it. but also the iphone is a huge part of it and the other i pads are a part of it as well as macintosh. >> that brings us to the car. >> you keep coming back there. >> well, i mean obviously you care about it, otherwise i wouldn't read all these stories about it obviously you care about it because google is your primary competition. you have said. and they are passionate about a car. obviously elan musk is passionate about a car. so why wouldn't tim cook be passionate about a car. because he is. >> you know. >> rose: why be secretive about the ambition to do something big in the car. >> we have-- . >> rose: we don't need a. >> we have a product today called car play that brings,

that makes it seemless to use your iphone while in your car. >> right. >> seems to me to talk to you, you know, that apps are going to have an increasing role in technology. you said clearly television. >> yeah. >> some say it's going to replace surgeons. >> definitely when you use apps, search becomes different. search becomes quite different in some cases. >> better? >> you know, it's up to the user to judge better. but in most cases, if you search today you might get 2 million responses that are maybe even more than that. a gaz il onresponses am you probably don't really want that. >> no, i don't. >> right? you want to know what you want to know. so you want something very specific to come up.

and so i think that is what the future of search holds. is trying to give you what you ral want, not this laundry list of things for you to shall. >> in a consumable manner. >> in a very consumable manner. >> what is going to happen to get us there? >> well, there is lots of technology. and there's many companies that know a lot about search more than we do, i'm sure. >> you look around the corner. what is the shaping the corner? >> there's a lot of things shaping the worner today. this whole idea, this whole app explosion is shaping it. ar is shaping the corner. vr is shaping the corner. in the automotive world, electric vehicle and autonomous driving is shaping the corner. and. >> artificial intelligence. >> artificial intelligence, ai, very much, machine learning.

and but the truth is not to see just what is shaping it. but how you can use those things and productize them into things people want. they may not know it today. but they want. and so it's not just seeing the, what the underlying technologies or the capabilities are. but finding the way to productize them. that has always been the magic of the company. >> rose: for more about this program and earlier episodes visit us online at pbs.org and charlie rose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

>> funding for kaferlie rose is provided by the following: arch by bloomberg, a procedurer of multimeld ya news and multimeld ya news and information services wo

- here is something new, four food categories to help you turn back the clock on aging, to be younger, trimmer, fitter, mentally sharper, improve your romantic function, and prevent heart disease. if it sounds too good to be true, it's not. i'm gonna share with you how to prepare special foods in a way that will dramatically improve how you age, plus give you tools to ensure you succeed. so don't go away. i'll be right back. male announcer: more than 1/3 of the u.s. population is obese, and weight-related diseases are climbing. every year, more than half of americans try to lose weight, but fewer than 10% keep it off.