>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with the cast from the hit musical "hamiltonment" joining us is leslie odom, jr., renee ellis goldsberry, daveed digs, christopher jackson and phillipa soo. >> this show i say all the time what the show really asks of you as a performer is to bring every single part of yourself every second that you are on stage. and nothing more and nothing less than that. and i think that translates out there too. and it says here you, exactly who you are, where you are right now, if you had a bad day, if you had a great day, it doesn't matter. it has value and it is part of the history of our country. and everything that you are doing right now is part of-- of leading up to the next zen. >> rose: we conclude this evening with a new memoir from ambassador zalmay khalilzad, the ambassador to iraq and

ambassador to afghanistan. his book is called "the envoy: from kabul to the white house" my journey through a turbulent world. >> i wanted to wait not to write it immediately after i left, because i want it to reflect, to be able to talk to some of the colleges who had other responsibilities and to do it in a deliberate way. and not to settle scores but to do a thur row, objective piece of work. because my background, although i've done a lot of policy, as a scholar, an analyst, i used to teach at columbia university, my first job. so i want to be thur row, balanced and deliberate. so i took my time. >> rose: the cast from hamilton and zalmay khalilzad when we continue. fufneding for charlie rose is provided by the following:

>> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications >> from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: when you first heard that there was a new musical, maybe in the works, about alexander hamilton and manual mir anda was doing it which means that the music would be special, what did you think? >> for me the most famous person in that equation was lin himself. >> rose: yes. >> because i didn't know a lot about alexander hamilton like most of america. so just his name on it was compelling enough for me to want

to see what i could do to be a part of it. even just invest would have been enough for me. >> rose: to invest it. >> i showed up to that audition because i was hopingment i didn't think there was anyway that i could get the job but i thought i could pull some money together because i knew it would make money. >> rose: that would have been one hell of an investment. >> yeah, missed it. >> rose: you were a well-known rapper. >> yeah, well, all things are relative. people who know me, really know me. >> rose: can you imagine when the idea of you as thomas jeferson, a founding father. >> no, couldn't imagine it, never imagined it. and even when tommy brought this idea up to me when we were rapping at the super bowl one year. and he mentioned the show to me and told me what it was about. i said yeah, send it to me. that's not-- that can't work. this is knowing and loving lin and understanding that he is a genius and just like-- and then as soon as they sent me the

music, lin's demos where he sings everything from himself and all the beats made on garage band and they found like-- barely-- barely an idea of a song, and even that was enough to just be like oh, it's perfect and it's going to be amazing. >> rose: i keep hearing this word genius attached to him. what is it about him that everybody says it's genius. >> he's a sin they sizer. because he he has made them make sense for us in a way that they have never made seng to-- sense to us before. he has made them make sense in the context of our time, with our music. he made these dead white guys make sense to a bunch of black and brown people. >> rose:ed timing of it was important. >> yes, definitely. >> the consistent thing too is that one finds a truth within

themselves and finds a way to identify it, and breathe life into it. >> the genius comes from the work involved to getting the product. not the product itself. i think that was extremely apparent to me when i entered the room the first day that i started working on a reading. and i could just see that the minds at work here. it was about each individual mind but also them coming together. and what that meant in terms of throwing an idea out there and then, you know, throwing it away. and being able to freely bring ideas up and let tb of them. >> well, what is it that connects. because you guys are in it and people will tell you, you personally because you're in it. what it means to-- what are you hearing. what is it that is resonating in these audiences. and these are the most extraordinary audiences from the president to the vice president. >> to a high-school student from the brongs.

>> exactly. to a high-school student from the brongs. to people from around the world. what is it? >> well, after the show there is a lot of-- there is something i want to say. there's something-- i need to be able to express myself but i can't. i'm sorry. to which we say okay, we feel it too. there is a-- that happens at our show that has never happened in my lifetime, in my career. there is a commune onthat happens between what is happening on the stage and what seems to be affecting people out in the audience and that is you, get this overwhelming sense of feeling something. of being moved by something. there's so many different things happening in the story that it's almost impossible to peg, i think, just the music or just the movement or it's the lights. the staging. it could be any number of those things or all of those things.

so you have-- having not seen the show, it's very difficult for people to express themselves after their show. very difficult. >> rose: you said it, daveed, something you didn't have before, ownership of your own history. >> yeah. yeah. i mean this is the only time i've ever felt particularly american is in the last like eight months that i have been working on this, or i guess three years. but but i think, i think what it does is gives value to whoever you are. i think it does that for everybody. this show, i say all the time what this show really asks of you as a performer is to bring every single part of yourself every second that you are on stage and nothing more and nothing less than that. and i think that translates out there too. and it says here you, exactly who you are, where you are right now, if you had a bad day, if you had a great day, it doesn't matter. it has value and it is part of

the history of our country. and everything that you are doing right now is part of-- of leading up to the next zen, being in this room. you choosing to come here and spend this time with us change changes something. >> when they said you're going to be the narrator, it's your voice, your song that will take us through the story. how did that fit with you? >> i think it is very seriously that i'm the guide for them. i take-- i have a responsibility to make sure that they get it, that they come along for the ride. tommy said something really early in rehearsals that i loved. he said it's very easy for this thing to be with you guys up on stage and thoses could actuals and for there to be a separation between you and them. they made sure that the orchestra even didn't separate us from them. that we are as close as we could

possibly be. and so i get so much from them. they teach me so much. and there is something else that happens at the end of a night together. i mean we've traveled so far at the end of this three hours. we travel-- we've lived. >> 40 years. >> a life together. and then to this zen, it is sort of is-- you're traveling twice. >> when people come back stage it's just a profoundity of that that they are grappling with. and it really bonds us with them. >> rose: they said about you, chris, that i mean, first of all they knew your work. they had worked with you before. but you had the kind of size and presence that was essential for washington. >> well, we were on stage and lin looked over to me and said i think i found my next story. i was like, this is exciting. we're in the show, we're doing

the show. we're in, there was a zen where there was another number going on and we always talk. we have 45 minute-- 45 second conversations. they literally can span the entire, like, our entire daley experience. and he looks over and he says, mr. president. i was like all right. you got-- then i see tommy a few days later. and he says mr. president. and i said oh, this is really happening. it was real, without a second thought i left. i went to the nearest book store. i got the george washington biography. >> rose: same guy who wrote hamilton. >> wow. >> a definitive biography, no doubt. but learning about george washington has been a life-altering, life-affecting experience. playing him is-- in the context of our story has been incredibly

stressful one for me. because we meet him at a time in his life where the stakes could not be higher. he was literally drowning in the quawg mier that was our country as it was being birthed. and being in charge of this rabel, this army, this disorganized gathering of ideas and there were guns pointed at him, you know. and so it's been a very heavy but a very, very full experience. >> to talk to you guys, both actors and musicians, how hard is it to take these words, these words from lin, who he has worked over and labored over, not for a week or a month but in some times many months, even a year, and do them with a kind of emphasis and inflection and speed. more words per minute on any

production almost since shakespeare, according to people who-- i mean that's what they said that you could do. they said we know he can deliver this. and not that many people we know. >> well, i think the beauty of originating a role is that you get a lot of credit for being the only one that can do something. and then, you know, 20 years later you are going to be like oh, a lot of girls could have done that. but this is working for me right now. >> rose: and have. >> for me learning lines and ingesting them is always easiest depending on how well they're written. and the fastest raps that i do in the show are so analytical and so, brilliantly constructed that once i figured out what he was saying, i heard the demo of him singing. and that's what was really the calling card that brought me in for this. just listening to his demo. >> rose: his demo did it for

you. >> his demo. i listened to that. i listened to the rap of him doing the song that i sing in the show called "satisfied" "and my jaw hit the floor. i had never heard anything like it i just thought it was such a beautiful way to show a person making a decision that will affect the rest of their life in an instant. like we always say i knew in an instant something happened. and that would mean that your mind has to go from 0 to 60 in that minute. what other form of music can do that, as well as rap. i don't know. and yes, so he was very successful in that. and because it was so brilliantly constructed, it was the easiest part. and still remains, i think, the easiest part of my job. believe it or not. though it's the thing that i get the most credit for is the easiest part of this job for me to do that rap. because it's so well constructed. >> i assume you all found out, the exotion of all of this. >> yeah, i mean lin is a really

good rapper. that's also the other thing. like some rappers, rappers coming to see the show. and saying the same thing. like the construction of these raps is really impressive from just a rap music standpoint. and that is important. and that for me, you know, the second i read something that lin writes i know how it is supposed to sound am i don't have to read his demo. i can see it on the page. >> i don't read sheet mus eck any more because of working with lin. if lin wrote a rap i can look at the page and know how the cadence flows and how he-- . >> rose: how was the cast album, because there is a story going around that when you were doing part of this, when leaning in. >> what a day. >> rose: is there a reason they call you silky, isn't it? >> oh my goodness. oh man. >> come on, silky. >> you know, here is the beautiful thing about the cast album was sort of the same thing

about the show. that the task is so gar began tune that you come in and you think you're going to be nervous. you come in and you think you're going to, you know, and then you get so swept up in the amount of work that you have to do that you can lose yourself. i didn't know how we were going to make it through that day doing that album. and then at some point, we were done. >> uh-huh. >> and you found the energy, you found the silky tones, whatever you had to do. >> i feel that way doing the show as well. >> rose: these are good female roles, aren't they? >> they are amazing. >> rose: especially. >> here is a woman of dignity, dignity, who comes to face to face with two huge events. one her husband's life and his death. >> uh-huh. >> rose: and in between discovering his affair. >> i feel like i see-- you know,

it was really, i was really taken with the way that ron portrayed eliza in his book because it kind of book ends with her. >> rose: it informed you? >> yes. i was taken by how much he, the way he spoke about he lizza and how much-- eliza and how much he admired her and how he very much thought of his own wife as his own eliza. and it makes me think about my own mother, about her mother, about my father's mother. about these incredible women who spent their lives truly supporting their family, and their loved ones and it's interesting because my character is one of the only characters that doesn't rap at all. and i don't think that's an accident. because i feel like eliza-- eliza is about time. and in these mel oddees that i

have, i have more time. i have more time to express a very simple piece of information as opposed to the rap which is less time and as much information as you can. and she has the most time in the entire show. >> rose: and you never see the fact-- she spent 50 years. >> yes. >> rose: all to make sure that history gave him his dues. >> i just took a trip today, this morning, to go to grand windham which is the original, what we refer to in the show as the orphanage that she established. and to see something like that that she started, that still exists today and is running and there's a beautiful plaque in there that is dedicated to her. and she lived to be 97 years old. which for us now is still

incredible. >> rose: yes. >> and ron has this beautiful, he said something really interesting to me when we were discussing eliza. if you can in your mind, you can imagine her, you know, he likes to imagine this, but you know, rubbing shoulders with abraham lincoln, you know what i mean, and george washington. so she had an incredible view to his life in that time. >> rose: did you do a lot of research or did you simply look at this text and say, i, i know jefer son. i know the jefer son that i want to be? >> i think i, you know, first and fore most wanted to honor what was there. there is a lot, there is a lot in the text. i did research and i'm still doing research and you know, the more i learn things, things will slowly fold in. but i think there's so much in the text. and with jefer son, the thing

you begin to realize about jefer son very quickly is he did so much that you could make any choice and justify it. he doesn't-- it doesn't matter how you play jefer son. the choices are endless, i think. the key for me and what tommy encouraged often was bridging this gap between these figures and the audience. for me jeferson became sort of a compilation of people in my actual life who have character statistics that work, for the parts of jefer son that we were showing in the script. so we needed him to be somebody extremely charismatic but also very dangerous. and you know, my grandfather is all over that. there's so much of my grandfather in thomas jefer son that i can't even, from the walk to like the way he holds the cain. >> more than a walk t is a kind of strut. >> these are all things that

i-- yeah, it is the whole-- you know, and then they give me thats could actual, it's not even fair. >> purple vell vet. >> i call my suit the presidential because it's black vell vet, i'm sorry, wow. but purple vell vet. >> that was an upgrade from off broadway. it was brown off broadway and i bent in for the fitting and i went for the fitting and they put that purple vell vet suit on me and i said y'all have messed up now. there is literally no turning back. everything changed as soon as i put it on. just strutding around. i walked into the hallway. i was-- it was too good. it was too good. so all of these things inform and-- . >> rose: all of these things inform your entrance too. >> it is an entrance and we have agonized over that entrance. >> rose: what do you mean agonized. >> me and tommy spent a lot of time trying to figure out exactly what is going to set this zen up right. because it really dusker the way you are introas due-- introduced

to jeferson's character is how you feel about him for the rest of the show. and he has to carry a lot of weight. and if that entrance doesn't go well it makes it a very slow, it's a very hard climb to come back from that. so you noarks and there were sometimes where it hasn't felt like it's gone well and the show it becomes really long. the second half for me gets very, very long when that happens. so me and tommee spent a lot of time. you know, are you going to start on stage, are you going to start off stage and do you wave, do you blow kisses. now it's finally feeling a little settled where i can try things and it doesn't feel like it breaks the performance. but for me for a long time it was like hey, step, wave, blow a kiss, walk down the steps. it was very, these are the things i know work. >> rose: so when you settle into the rolls, you can do a little bit of enhancement. >> yeah. >> rose: night to night. >> the audience teaches so much about the show. i mean you know, we, the preview process is what is so important.

we were itching to get-- when a rehearsal process is done right you are bigging for-- begging for that audience because certainly for me as a narrator, they're my other feed partner. so it's like, i almost can't take a step forward at a certain point without them. yeah, it's almost, it's almost few tile now, doing the show without an audience because there is no show without them. >> rose: you know, "rent" was huge. and lin manual's life. >> thank god that worked out well. >> rose: but it wassments he all of a sudden. >> i had the privilege of being the last mimi on broadway. so far i always say that because i know it's got to come back in rent. and they did that so buferl fleevment they sented that show show off so beautifully that i had a lot of opportunity to talk to michael and jeffery sellers who is also our producer. and people about how it felt to

be in this zen that we are in with hamilton. what it felt like to be in that original company. daf knee ruben vega was the original mimi in rent and the clothes that they all wore were the clothes she had on. so that is really like your skin going into that, ka. and that's a beautiful thing. and i love to compare this angelica skylar to mimi in rent because they are surprisingly there are so many similarities in what you said is poker withful women, a woman that is making really powerful choices at a time when you would imagine they would be, you know, there would be no power. that's what is beautiful. that is what is exciting. one of the things that is exciting to me about playing angelica skylar and feel sog powerful and knowing that like in the time that we live in, with hillary running for president and son ya sotomayor and immigration, these are things that we get to do. we get to-- we get to show, to quote chelsea when she came to our show, who the founding

mothers are, and what they did. and they were not just selling flag-- soaking flags. they were actually the muse like angell kal skylar was to thomas jefer son and to hamilton. beautiful. >> rose: is satisfied great? >> i don't know what the history will say that it is. but i know that it is-- i think one of the most important musical theater works that i have ever been exposed to in my life. and i am not only talking about just the music on the page. i think even what anden-- andy blankenmeuler did visually with this number. some people compare it to film. i haven't seen it myself, i have only been a part of it. but what, what they have been able to accomplish in story telling with this particular number, i think, will always be studied. and that's very exciting to me. >> rose: leslie, is there one memorable song, phrase, line,

that is always there for you? >> first thing i will say is watching this girl you know, i came on just a little bit before pippa. and watching her come in and grow into this role, and watching her process, you know, i had the same experience in college, you know. i learned just as much from my class mates as i did from my teachers in college. so i have learned just as much from these people on the stage as i have from lin. the hoppesty and vulnerability that brut to the show. i tell her all the time, she doesn't lie. her instrument won't allow her to lie. i see her, charlie, for months now. i'm waiting for the day that she has a show where she's, you know, fakes it. it's unreal to be that close to

her genius, to be that close every night. somebody telling that much truth. and then lin made no secret that wait for it, is a secret number of his. and i watch that man every night lead me on stage. and he walks off stage left. and he gave me that, the again rossity of that, to give me his favorite tune. >> just an example. that is an example of a song that a lot of people were telling him to cut. and he didn't. >> or keep it for himself because it's so great. but that burr gets to have that zen. >> rose: daveed, knowing jefer son's history and all of that, the controversial aspects of his life, i mean, does that say anything to you, that results on

stage? >> yeah. well, you know, what's fascinating is that we-- when we meet jefer son, his how is being prepped by all of his slaifs. he won't talk about that at all. but all the ensemble is on here, playing slaifs, cleaning up the house, running around, and the audience still falls in love with him. and that's very telling, i think. and that was my-- that's what i wanted. i wanted. >> that is part of the performance too. >> but i wanted, i wanted to create a character where you could absolutely fall in love with this guy. and then a few hours later be like wait a minute. that's not-- that's not really okay. like. >> yeah, yeah. and i think you know, that is in the text. and it's also part of the story of our country. and i love that we don't glos over it even though it's not really part of the story that we're telling. and there are-- there's a whole,

there say third bat theal was all about slaifery. that has been cut from the show, that is great. and borrows heavily from t-upac's hail mary and is like a really, a really awesome song. but it makes sense that it's not in this version of the show. i think, and i think that knowing that about jefer son helps me give, helps me find that dangerous aspect of him. >> rose: the dangerous fact. >> yeah. i think that he is-- and that's important in his dealings with hamilton. having jefer son be a really dangerous person. and i think that history of slaifery for me is such a dangerous thing because here is somebody who-- i mean the declaration is a brilliant piece of writing. he did a lot of brilliant things. i wouldn't want those to not exist. but the legacy of slaifery is real and that is very dangerous. and something that we come in contact with every day.

and it was left unchecked. and within himself, he allowed himself to justify it in so many different ways that i think it-- i applaud that the show doesn't actually glos over that. even though it's not part of the story. i think if you step back and get some time to think about it you can come into contact with these things. and feel gross about them a little bit. >> what's the best part of the best line of the best zen for you as george washington? >> as i'm listening to these, i'm thinking about it. i lost my father about what, two weeks into the preview process. which and for on many levels was difficult. and i'm still sort of sorting through that. very much in the same way that washington, i think that he identified a great deal of his life with loss, considering that he lost his father and older brother and best friend, very early on. and then was exposed to war very

early on. young man living is harder, a line that he delivers to hamilton when they're having their introduction in our show. but the part that i think that affects me most, most likely is one of the last lines of the show, and eliza thinks it, when i step forward and claim that she tells my story because she was instrumental in the funding and the building of the washington monument. and she says as i'm standing behind her in a zen of, she tells my story and the spirit of washington is reveling in the fact that he has been remembered by such a strong and wonderful woman. but she says i speak out against slaifery. and in that zen, that spirit that washes, that zen washington realizes that he didn't. and it is a zen of shame for

him. and i slowly bow and i back away from that. there's a strength and purity that she represents at the end of this story and a resilience and the idea that that legacy moves forward in some what of a pure way through eliza and yet that shame, that, just as much as washington embodies the greatsness and the promise of america, that shame is something that she speaks out against. and as washington, i get to own that. and i get to step back from that glory because i think that you can't-- i know you can't have one without the other. a country is all of the wonderful things that it is. and you can't have the declaration in our time without examining what the founding fathers sacrificed, an effort to make that a real thing. that bill of rights was for everyone. it just took us so many years and so many lives, even today, to claim hold of. >> rose: well said. do all of you or some of you or

any of you feel like that this somehow in this world of musical theater is transformative? that something is taking place here from the mind of lin manual mir anda and all of the performances and all of the collaborations, that somehow is having a impact on theetder as we know it? >> good god, we hope. so we hope. so you know, the fact that everything we have been through, all of us, we bring our own struggles, our own pains, the things that we, that it took to get us here, and we got somewhere in our second week of previews. we have the president of the united states in this audience. >> on saturday of our first week. >> in this audience. >> rose: the president of the united states.

>> sitting president. >> that we have the chance. we don't know if it's going to happen. but we have the chance to touch his heart, to make him think about something in a way that he's never thought about it before, just the opportunity to do it is major. >> amazing with him sitting there, you hope that it doesn't, and it's not just him. it's heads of state, it's leaders. >> the treasury secretary. >> world leaders and i mean the most powerful minds and talents on this planet are coming through here. we have a chance, we'll see what happens but we have a chance. >> that's what is so exciting to me in terms of impacting the world. because there are a lot of thank god brilliant writers and successful hit shows. and what is unique about this experience to me is it is impact on-- it feels like it blew the

walls off of the theater. the fact that anna binto-ur has been such a huge supporter and we can participate in fashion week and they know and care what is going on here. i feel like art and politics and sports and all of these things are bubbles. and when we can pop the bubble open and you know, roger federer can get up from the u.s. open and talk about the show that he saw, you know what i mean. when we can get out of this one little bubble, we are actually doing what we said we wanted to do when we got into this. >> rose: it is a cultural touchstone. >> yes. >> rose: thank you. >> thank you. >> rose: pleasure. zalmay khalilzad is here. he served as u.s.' permanent representative to the united nations. under president george w bush from 2007 to 2009. prior to that, he was u.s. ambassador to iraq from 2005 to 2007. and to afghanistan from 2003 to 2005. he was the most senior muslim in

the white house at the time of the 9/11 attacks. he has just written his memoir, it is called "the enjoy from kabul to the white housek my journey through a turbulent world. i'm pleased to have an old friend back on this program. welcome. >> charlie, it's great to be with you. so what are you doing now? >> well, i spent part of my time as a counselor at the center for strategic and international study. >> rose: right. >> i am on several boards, nonprofit, national endowment for democracy, the atlantic council, the american university of afghanistan. >> rose: you are part of the conversation. >> yes. >> rose: about the world which you inhabited as a public official. this comes some years after your experience, a long time coming? did you just decide to write it? >> i wanted to wait not write it in the-- immediately after i left because i wanted to reflect, to be able to talk to some of the colleges who had

other responsibilities and to do it in a deliberate way, and not settle scores but to do a thur row, objective piece of work. because my background, although i have done a lot of policy is a scholar, an analyst. i used to teach at columbia university. my first job. so i wanted to be thur row, balanced and deliberate. so i took my time. >> rose: take a look at where we are today. first afghanistan. you've got a new government there, since you-- your friend or the one that you knew best left. there's talk of negotiations with the taliban, the taliban seemed to be gaining, yet there seems to be more strength in terms of the central government's military force. where are we? >> it's a mixed picture. afghanistan is a much better place than it was prior to 9/11. and right after words.

it has institutions it didn't have, an army that is holding, although after we reduced that force very dramically, there has been some shift in favor of the taliban, we have gained some territory. the unity government that we helped put together, is having deficits working well together. the negotiations-- begani actually say good friend, i went to school, we were in school together. we came to america together in the 1960s, believe it or not. and the discussion about talks with the taliban, has not made significant progress because the taliban would like to talk to the united states. and not to the afghan government. and we say no, either we should talk with the u.s. and afghanistan government together or not at all. i think that's an issue that is

not made the kind of progress we would like to see. the problem with pakistan, its sank area for the taliban continues and one of our big problems, i think since the beginning, has been not to be able to successfully deal with the problem. >> rose: my impression was that the pakistani government today is better than it had been in terms of north waz iri stan. >> we would like for them to do more but much better than before. unfortunately the distinct that pakistan makes between-- the distinction pakistan makes between the taliban or terrorist groups that focus on pakistan and those that focus on india an afghanistan is trownling and has not been-- is troubling and has not been resolved to our satisfaction. meaning pakistan works against terrorists focused on pakistan but sustains, looks the other way supports groups like the taliban in afghanistan. and it's the military, really,

rather than the civilian government. >> rose: what is the difference between the taliban in afghanistan and the taliban in pakistan? >> just that they have different targets. otherwise idea logically there is no difference. and ultimately they will come together. but pakistan makes this distinction that the pakistani taliban are bad. that we, the united states and the afghans should target them in afghanistan when they are there from where they operate against pakistan. but that the afghan taliban in pakistan should not be targeted by the united states or them or the afghans. so this has been a huge headache, a huge problem for which we have not found the right resolution. >> rose: were you surprised that mula omar, it was announced he was dead two years after he died. >> i was surprised that his death was kept secret. >> rose: for two years. >> that is very surprising. and the fact that it has been-- was announced in the aftermath of which you see several taliban group emerge

because the problem in the region when a big leader dies, building gabbing to the time of the prophet, then factionalism increases and now have you factions within the taliban, with groups fighting each other. and maybe over time that factor will become more important than the reconciliation talks, the internal fight among the taliban and how we relate to it, how the afghan government relate to that may become even more interesting. >> rose: two questions about today and times ago. is corruption still the problem as it was during the previous administration? >> i think it's a big problem. maybe even it has increased. although the government is more serious than the previous one because of the uncertainty about the future, as we disengage, as the situation has gotten worse, people think more in sert terms. they become short timers, they don't know what might happen so they say why not take care of

one self, put some money aside. so actually corruption, corruption is a serious problem. >> rose: and what about the power of the war lords? >> well, the power of the warlords is not as high as, as dom nant as it used to be right after 9/11 because we have worked with the warlords to overthrow the taliban. there were less than a couple thousand on the ground so it has taken time to build the afghan institution and as a result there has been a shift in the balance between the government which has institutions now and the war lords which have weakened. >> rose: when we attacked afghanistan, have i asked rumsfeld, have i asked lots of people this. how close did we come to getting in pakistan, in afghanistan and pack stand, before osama bin laden was killed, later in pakistan. how close do we come to getting him when he was fleeing from afghanistan to pakistan? >> there may have been an

opportunity in torah borea, the mountains between afghanistan. >> rose: it is clearly. >> that is what he has. >> and rerelied on local war lords as you said to-- if he came towards afghanistan and or fleed the bombing, that they would capture him and turn them over to special forces. >> you went to pakistan, i believe. and he wasn't captured on the other side. >> i mean americans felt they preltee much had him cornered. >> i do not know that. i cannot say that with confidence but i think we were aware that he was in that area. but whether we had within eyesight, can i not confirm that. >> rose: do you believe thrat pakistanis did not know he was where he was? >> in those five years. >> the question is which pakistani. i suspect that some pakistanis clearly knew where he was. he was in a very strategic area

where a military college of pakistan is very much nearby. and pakistan has a strong security establishment, military being very strong. so i suspect that somebody-- that somebody knew and offered assistance and protection because you couldn't get to that town. >> rose: you think they would not have told their higher ups. they would not have told the army chief of staff? >> i suppose it's possible that they may have told-- don't tell me if you know anything, so to speak. i don't want to know. but i mean they denied pakistan for a long time that there were any taliban in pakistan, the afghan taliban. president bush, after i complained a lot about the sanctuary in pakistan when i was ambassador said i am going to do something for you. i said what, mr. president, he said i'm going to call musharev and say are you coming to see him because you offered details of where, you know, camps are

and they're being trained. when i went there to see him, he flatly denied that there were any afghan taliban in pakistan. asked me to give them their address, their phone number, so i was very surprised to hear that. because the leadership council of the taliban were called queta-- and they are a big city in pakistan and journalists are going and interviewing these taliban. so i was very surprised. but that's what the dilemma has been in dealing with pakistan. >> the president is having a new clear summit in washington in which the president of china is there and others. the question once more has been raised, because with respect to some of the people who are representing isis in europe, evidently had some denines on-- designs on new clear resources. >> right. >> and there were even considerations of kidnapping people that worked there, that kind of thing. so it raised a question once again of the safety of new clear weapons in pakistan.

>> right. >> what is your sense of that today? >> well, today it's not an eminent threat. based on what i know. we don't have an immediate concern. but over time given the kind of problems that pakistan has including extremism, the danger that as pakistan deploys lots of tactical new clear weapons all over the country. >> what dow mean deploys tactical new clear weapons all over the country. >> well, pakistan has deployed new clear weapons to different parts of the country for safety and security reasons. so that they, one strike can't take them all out. and there is transportation of these weapons throughout pakistan. there is certainly a risk that the one or parts of the weapon could fall into the hands of the

terrorists. that's why i've been an advocate of having a small approximate force stay in afghanistan because we may have to take action urgently to-- if we know where something is, to safeguard it, to go and rescue or take over that weapon, if it falls into the wrong hands. but if we are not in afghanistan or in the region t will take us a long time to deploy forces to do that. we couldn't have done-- bin laden, if he was not present in fghanistan with helicopters flying across from jalalibad in the milt elf the night. some presence in my view is needed for this unlikely but very dang rowses scenario of a pakistani bomb falling into the hands of the extremist. >> how does the gaffe began ashrawi 56 began government feel about having american throops remain because they look at iraq and say it probably was a mistake. because it lead to having less

influence with the prime minister of iraq and an acceleration of the suni shia split. >> i think both we and the afghans have learned the lesson of iraq. that total u.s. withdrawal was a big mistake, created a vacuum in which regional powers became more involved and pulled iraq apart. shia suni relations deter rated and the vacuum ultimately was filled by isis. i think we want to sustain some forces in afghanistan for the foreseeable future for counterterrorism and training purposes. and the afghan government wants even more numbers of u.s. forces than we are willing and a broader mission for that force. we wanted only for counterterrorism operation. >> people would call a lightfoot print today. >> very much so. planning to reduce from around 10,000 to about 5, by the end of

the year. i think there are a lot of people and i would include myself in that group that think he should maintain the current level until the next administration has had a chance to refew-- review the situation in av be ---- afghanistan, the region and then decide what it ought to do. >> you were also the ambassador of iraq, as i mentioned afterwards. when you look back at your time there, mr. the things that you like to do over, or were there mistakes or were the things that the u.s. could have done better, could the united states have developed a better relationship with iran cuz that opportunity was presented at that time sth. >> sure. i think one of the things that i think we should have done better is both to be tougher on iran on the one hand, in temples of the forces that they were supporting, the weapons that they were providing, ieds that we lost a lot of colleges to. >> because of shia millisha.

>> supporting inside iran. >> inside of which they had people themselves. i wanted us to take action earlier against them. but at the same time, as we did in afghanistan, whether it was in-- where i meeting with iranians or in afghanistan i had regular meetings with the iranian ambassador, that i should have been allowed to also engage with the iranians diplomatically. it took awhile until the president decided to allow me to do so. i remember telling him well, why could i talk to the iranians on the eastern side of their boferredder but not on the western side of their boarder. but also said go ahead, but it was-- at the end of my term, also i think there were a couple of other lessons that perhaps we could have done better. we were in a hurry to get the constitution done within two months of my arrival to finish it. and i think a little more time to get a national come

pangt-- compact to suni, shia and come to an agreement would have been better. by the time we finished the constitution, we had brought in some suni buy in to the document that allowed the constitution to be passed. but it had not quite become the national compact that iraq really still needs, this is a need for the shia and sunis to come to an agreement that they can feel comfortable with, in terms of the future of the country. >> rose: the future of the region, even, isn't it? >> well, i mean, the key factor, frankly, charm yee, now that shapes iraq and syria, is the reg nal rivalry that a sectarian and political dimension. >> basically making the point that making the point that, you know, nlts they can somehow get the sunis and shia to come together, they will find it's

impossible to solve the conflicts of the middle east. >> i completely agree with that. but the way that this could come about, charlie, in my view is for iran, saudi arabia and turkey, the three big powers of this region to do a kind of, what i call a new type agreement, european wars of religion ended with an agreement among catholic and protestant leaders. but regulating the relationship. >> who is going to call that meeting and who will make it happen. >> i think it is an opportunity for the united states, in my view, one of the positive features of the new clear agreement is that we have opened a channel with iran. we may be uniquely in a position, i don't know whether there is enough time for this administration, for john kerry, to use that influence with saudi

arabia an turkey which has diminished but still considerable. and opening with iran to facilitate, encourage, cooperate and that an agreement among these three, and we need to work on the pilars that could lead them to an agreement to shape it. we are very good at responding, my experience. we are threatened. we've got counter-- but to shape, to get to that point of these three talking to each other is important. but we have to recognize that that is necessary and then we can go about discussing how we get from here to there. >> back to turkey which is the third part of the problem between suedees-- saudis, the iranians and the turks. the turkish president is in washington. >> right. >> i'm having din we are him on friday. >> so he's not seeing the president. >> surprising, isn't it? >> yes. >> very. >> not seeing the president of the united states. he's seeing the vice president. >> yeah. >> but the president of china is seeing the president. >> i think-- i think turkey is a very key player.

there are aspects to erd want's-- er erd o want's policy that are-- and you know, it's support from the brotherhood, he's part of these problems of the region that we discussed. but i think without turkey, and without iraq and without saudi arabia, we cannot move towards a settle am. >> rose: he professed a belief in secretary you larrism. do you believe that. >> the constitutional turkey is a secretary you lar constitution so he has to in order to disqualify himself from being president. >> rose: but i'm asking, do you think he brothers it. >> no, i think he's a muslim brotherhood sim pathizer. he is a kind of new ottoman leader which is much more focused on the middle east than secretary you lar governments were. and he is a strong player. he supports the muslim brotherhood threutd the middle east while the saudi-- . >> rose: whether they are in

jordan or egypt. >> you know, he supported morsi, the former president who is now imprisoned. difficult relations. >> rose: what do you think about the egyptians and repeated calls for-- the newspaper editorials and other places for, you know, the rest of the world to express some sense of outrage about the crackdown there. >> well, morsi, muslim brotherhood government was not successful. it was a failure. alienated many egyptians. but the military government doesn't also offer solutions to the economic problem or the security problems of egypt. and the security situation is likely to get worse. so one cannot be terriblably optimistic about the stability and the transition to democracy in egypt. >> thank you for coming. it's great to see you. >> it's great to see you,

charlie. thank you very much. >> the book is called the enjoy from kabul to the white house. my jurnee through a turbulent world. it's still turbulent. >> it is turbulent, indeed. >> rose: thank you for joining us, see you next time. >> for more about this program and earlier episodes, visit us online at pbs.org and charlie rose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

>> funding for charlie rose is provided by the following: and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worlds wide. >> on tomorrow's pbs newshour making sense ever a new app 245 rewards high-school students with cash now to use towards college later

this is "nightly business report" with tyler mathin and sue herera. >> earnings shock. this season is expected to be ugly. but even if the results are lousy, is it possible the stock market could still rise? costly coverage. patients on the exchanges need more care than others. raising concerns that insurers may not participate for the long haul. detroit's comeback. how small businessowners are helping that city get back on its feet. all that and more tonight on "nightly business report" for wednesday march 30th. good evening, everyone, and welcome. day two, stocks extend their gains as global markets rally thanks to the market-friendly speech by the fed chair yesterday. as we reported then,an