>> rose: welcome to the program we begin this evening >> rose: welcome to the program we begin this evening with presidential candidate bernie sanders. >> we're getting attacked every day from the clinton campaign and want them to know we'll respond in kind. >> rose: and the congressman from california is the democrat on the committee. >> are they going to allow information to travel faster than people because if they're going to continue to have this free travel within europe then they're going to have to make sure their intelligence travels faster. right now it doesn't and it poses. >> rose: we conclude with ken burns with a new film on pbs about jackie robinson.

>> the first real societal and cultural progress after the civil war happens in baseball and baseball has sometimes not lead but followed but retiring his number it speaks volumes how jackie was. he said a life is measured by the difference it makes in other people's lives and he lives that creedo and that's an amazing testament. >> rose: bernie sanders, adam schiff and ken burns when we continue. funding is provided by the following:

>> rose: we're joined by senator bernie sanders of vermont. welcome. >> my pleasure. >> rose: let's talk with the call fictions you said she doesn't qualify because she takes super pac money. >> the washington headline west clinton questions whether sanders is qualified to be president. i felt it's appropriate to respond. >> rose: is it tit for tat? >> no, it should not be i've tried to run an issue campaign not just attacking each other every day but if we are getting attacked every single day by the

clinton campaign i want them to know we're going to respond in kind. >> rose: do you believe secretary clinton is qualified to be president. >> does she believe i am not qualified. >> rose: she has a first-rate resume of a life in public service. she's one of the most qualified people. >> she has years of experience and extremely intelligent. >> rose: what should she say? >> i have some experience and a good record in congress and mayor and think i'm qualified so to answer your question we should be debating the issues face the american people. all i'm saying is that if people are going to attack us and distort our record as has been the case time and time again we're going to respond. >> rose: people say the tenor of the campaign has changed and

it's sounding like the republican campaign. >> let's not go that. . >> rose: you said clinton should apologize for iraq war deaths. are you blaming her for iraqi war deaths. >> this after i was asked to apologize for the tragedy in sandy hook. put it in context. >> rose: it's responding and is it going to far to say she bears responsibility for the iraqi death. >> do i bear responsibility for sandy hook? she voted for the war in iraq. that it was a bad vote in my view. do i hold her accountable? no. look, the issues facing -- by the way, the media has to bear responsibility as well.

they kind of like that stuff. right? i see the smile on your lips, charlie. look, we have to ask why is the middle class declining, why do we have more income inequality than any nation on earth -- see? why the only major nation that doesn't guarantee health care to all people and why infrastructure is collapsing and kids are leaving school $50,000 in debt. >> rose: but she did not say she was not qualified. that's what she says and you say i looked at the headline in the "washington post." >> on the other hand read and hear what her surrogates are saying every day. so to answer your question, i respect secretary clinton. i've known her for 25 years. i would hope we can have a serious discussion about the serious issues -- >> rose: and if she is the

nominee you will support her. >> i'm sure she will support me and we'll go forward in understanding it would be a disaster -- unmitigated disaster to have someone like a donald trump or ted cruz to be president and i'll do everything in my power to make sure that does not happen. >> rose: some in the democratic party say they see it in the attack adds. >> what i want to do is debate which candidate has stood up for working families. which candidate has focus on income inequality and rebuilding our infrastructure and i think record will come out pretty good. >> rose: you know a lot of people are talking about your interview with the daily news in new york and talking about breaking up banks and talking about what's necessary to do if

a financial firm is too bill to fail. they say you have ideas but no plan to lay it out. >> than go to my website charlie. my senate website and you'll find legislation that i've introduced that is pretty specific about how we break up the banks and what that legislation requires is that the secretary of the treasury will determine which banks are endangering the fiscal health of america. which banks may be quote, unquote, too big to fail and bring down a significant part of the economy. >> rose: how would you break them up? >> you determine which banks are too big to fail. >> rose: how do you do that? >> that's not hard. that's what economists do. if a bank had a great deal of size and unstable financially

and if the bank were to go under and bring down a significant amount of economy the bank should not exist. if it's too big to fail it's too big to exist. >> rose: what do you have to do to win in new york? it is a pivotal campaign? >> i have to have the media allow us to talk about the real issues facing the american people. i think our message -- look , we won six of the last seven states and with one exception every one of our victories has been by landslide proportions. the middle class is declining. almost all income and wealth goes to the top 1%. not an issue media likes to talk about but it's an issue the american people understand to be true. they want somebody who has a political record of standing up to wall street not taking money from wall street. standing up to the pharmaceutical pharmaceutical

industry and fossil fuel industry. i believe the american people want a president ready to take on the big money interest and fight on their behalf. >> rose: what is it you believe about ge? >> what i believe about ge is they are one of the larger corporations in america. they have downsized significantly and moved to low-wage countries all over -- >> rose: so there are they are morally what -- >> i didn't say morally. i said one of the reasons that the middle class in this country is in decline is we have lost billions of decent paying manufacturing jobs. one of the reasons we have lost decent manufacturing jobs is a disastrous trade policy that has allowed companies like ge to shut down and go abroad. >> rose: the ceo of ge jim

immelt said he has a plant you have never visited that employs constituents of yours. >> it's in vermont and of course i visited. >> rose: why would mr. immelt say that? >> maybe he doesn't know about everything i do. but mr. immelt cannot deny the fact that his corporation has shut down plants all over america and moved abroad. that is the fact. and mr. immelt can't deny in a given year his corporation paid zero in federal income taxes. >> rose: and he said in fact they have paid federal, state and local tax. >> of course they have over the years. but in a given year they have paid zero despite making large profits. >> rose: if you want to win the hearts and minds of new yorkers, what is it you have to convince them about bernie sanders? >> well, having grown up in

brooklyn, new york in a three and a half room rent-controlled apartment, coming from a family that never had very much money. neither of my parents ever went to college, i have to convince the people of new york city i have to understand the struggles they're going through every day economically. i think i have to convince them i am prepared to stand up for them and take on the powerful special interests today that are destroying the american life. >> rose: do you have to convince them you have a plan and that america can afford your plan and these are workable plans because that's the question that secretary clinton is raising about your suggestions. >> of course she is raising those issues. that's what her job is is to try to win the election and defeat me. so let's talk about the plans. do we have time. >> rose: absolutely. we'll stay as long as you want.

>> okay. plan number one, our infrastructure is collapsing. our roads, bridges -- >> rose: most people agree with that. >> therefore i think we need a major investment. i've suggested $1 trillion over five years to replace them. >> rose: how would you do that? >> by doing away with an egregious loophole that allows large corporations to stash money in tax havens to avoid paying sometimes federal taxes. >> rose: what taxes will be raised? >> that would bring in about $100 billion a year over a ten-year period bring in the amount i need to put 13 million people to work rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure. number two, what i have said is in the year 2016 when we talk about public education it's not

good enough any more to simply be talking about first grade through 12th grade. we need to make public colleges and universities tuition free and substantially lower student debt. that's a $70 billion a year proposition. we pay for it through a tax on wall street speculation. third i believe at a time when millions of seniors and disabled veterans are trying to get by $11,000, $12,000 a year on social security i believe we should expand it by lifting the cap on taxable income. if you make $5 million and somebody makes $118 million both are paying the same amount. do what i propose, we extend social security for 58 years and significantly raise benefits. >> rose: do you think we have to raise the age? >> of course not. >> rose: people are living longer. working longer. >> interesting you that but i'm

sure you know this, upper income people most people are living longer. the working class people in many cases are not. in fact they're seeing a decline in their life expectancy. when have you millions of people on social security who cannot make it off $11,000 and $12,000 a year at a time when massive income and wealth inequality we should ask the upper income people to commit more. >> rose: do you hear you say i'm embarrassed by the personal attacks taking place and all i've done is respond to attacks and i'm embarrassed but they're giving a tone to the campaign i dent like. i don't like i have to participate in it and wish i would stop on both sides. >> i like it. >> rose: are you willing to say that? >> look, charlie, you're looking at a guy who's been in politics for a long time and i've never run a negative ad in my life. in this campaign, as i'm sure

you can appreciate, every other day people are coming up to me and saying aren't you going to attack hillary clinton on her e-mail. aren't you going to attack the clinton foundation. you know how many times i've done that? zero. you saw me in the debate i was asked about e-mails i said enough of these damn e-mails. >> rose: the tenor of the campaign when you question the qualification of a person whether they should be president and whether they question yours or haven't you're questioning their qualification. >> you're right, okay. but i see the headlines clinton questions whether sanders is qualified to be president, we're going to respond. >> rose: but don't you out to yourself and others to simply look at a headline and then respond. >> it's not a question of a

headline. after we won in wisconsin our sixth victory in seven states what they said publicly is the tenor is going to change. they're going to go much more negative on us and they have. that's the fact. that's what cnn says the quote, this is from the clinton campaign, their strategy, qualify him, defeat him and unify the party later. that means we're going negative. if you're question is to me that you prefer it doesn't -- >> rose: you made a pledge to your voters you're not going negative or engage in this. those aren't the politics you want to play. this is you on "face the nation" look at the tape. >> i have known hillary clinton for the last 25 years i i'm not going to get into the business of attacking her. >> rose: but you have and that's my point. >> charlie, if i hired you

tomorrow paid you more than cbs and you got attacked every day and surrogates go on television every day and distorting my record what do you say as my campaign manager? don't do anything? >> rose: i would say to you i'd be careful about what i said so there's no possibility that i'm accusing someone of saying something they haven't said based on a headline in a newspaper. >> it's not fair. if you listen to what the surrogates are saying. sometimes the way the politics work -- >> rose: you're saying her surrogates are doing the dirty work. >> they've been terrible. on and on it goes. i would hope and the point that you're making i agree with it's not a good thing. >> rose: when you think of ted

cruz's momentum you know how to play politics because you're in a place nobody thought, including you, would be at this moment. >> you thought i'd be surprised i'd be ahead. yeah, i think that's fair. >> rose: exactly. >> i think there is growing embarrassment, if you like, over the candidacy of donald trump. it's not just the american people in general who look at this guy and see that type of person should not be president but i think it's what they're feeling. >> rose: what is it that disqualifying him from being president, donald trump first. >> when you insult -- actively insult mexicans and latinos, muslims, islam is one of the largest religions in the world. when you insult women it seems

every other day and veterans that john mccain was not a war hero -- >> rose: all that disqualifies. >> does i say the word disqualifies. >> rose: i was asking a question. >> he's busy insulting every group of people. this is a guy also and sometimes we forget, as you know involved in the movement before he was a candidate. that was an attack on the legitimacy of the presidency of our first african american president barack obama. this was he shouldn't be president. that was a vicious and ugly attack trying to undermine the president of the united states. that was an attack on not only obama but the african american community and when people add that up i think people will say he should not be president. >> rose: do you think the fact president obama has taken super

pac money and supported trade deals means what about him about president. >> means i have a disagreement for a long time. i've known him for a long time. he's a friend of mine and campaigned for me in the senate seat and i have been very supportive of most of his initiatives. we have differences on opinion on among other things thpp, the trans-pacific partnership. >> rose: so did hillary clinton. >> she did say she no longer supports it. >> rose: i want to go back to the iraqi thing one more question. you have stated she supported for the iraqi war. other people did as well. do you hold all them responsible for the deaths of americans?

>> no. >> rose: then why say it, senator. >> i'm saying it because i was attacked -- >> rose: that's not a reason. i'm saying it because attacked me. >> then i hope you ask senator clinton if i'm responsible -- we have gun tragedies. sandy hook is the worse thing i can imagine. by the way i have worked to ban assault weapons -- the very weapon i understand was used in that terrible slaughter of children. i worked to ban it and now i'm being asked to apologize -- you know. >> rose: this is from the "new york daily news" sandy hook shame. the same newspaper that was protecting and defending new yorkers when president ford essentially said new york drop

dead. this is the same newspaper. does it bother you? >> of course it bothers me. sandy hook is almost unspeakable that some sick person can walk into a school and do that. you're looking at a man who ran for the united states congress in 1988. one seat in vermont. i was opposed by all the gun people. do you know why, charlie? i said maybe we should not sell and distribute weapons signed to kill people in the united states. to be attacked with a d-minus voting record from the nra -- yes, of course i don't like that. >> rose: on the iraq question, do you believe it even though you say you said it because you'd been attacked but do you believe that that secretary clinton is responsible for deaths in iraq because she

voted -- >> look, this is what a believe. >> rose: it's the question in which you believe. >> what i believe is that what they had to say is the worse policy blunder and led to massive destabilization in the region and the death of thousands and brave good people. it was a terrible blunder. do you think any member of the senate or house that votes for war is responsible for every person who dies? of course not. >> rose: then don't say it. >> charlie, this is a one-way lecture here. i've been attacked over and over again. i've been called unqualified to be president and i don't like that. you're making the point many many times you want the tenor of this campaign to be higher and i agree with you. >> rose: and do you make the

point not withstanding the tenor of this campaign we're engaged in an energetic debate on what we believe in and what we'd do as president and come november 2016 if hillary clinton is the nominee you will be supporting her? >> i would love to hear hillary clinton make the same point she'll be supporting me. >> rose: i'll ask her that just answer the question with respect to her, if you will. >> sure i will. as i said a million times i think the idea of a donald trump or ted cruz presidency would be an unmitigated disaster i'll do everything i can to make sure that does not happen and if she is the nominee i'll support her. >> rose: there's enthusiasm for your can candidacy and is it because there's support for hillary clinton or because between you and the voters there's been a connection with the future of america. which is it? >> i think it's the latter.

>> rose: do you think it's part of the former. >> i can't answer that. we had a rally in philadelphia of 14,000 people and a lot of working-class people and a lot of young people and who really understand that as the great nation we are we can do much much better. they want to be part of the process and the agenda we have outlined is something they're responding to strongly. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> always a pleasure. >> rose: thank you, sir. adam schiff is here the top democrat on the intelligence committee and a leading voice on national security and part of the benghazi inquiry into the terrorist attacks. i'm pleased to have congressman

adam schiff on the table for the first time. he'd been on the show but not at the table. >> great to be with you. >> rose: in terms of isis, what did the charlie hebdo and then paris and brussels say to you about isis' strategy and what do you know that we should know? >> i says the problem we've long worried about that foreign fighters. people that left europe and went to syria and iraq and came back that that problem is now very manifest. you have this enormous number of people from france, belgium more from belgium than anywhere else per capita and come back and trained in warfare and been further radicalized. they're getting help from fellow europeans that maybe never went to join the fight but working as logistical hub and there's no end in sight.

there's still very poor communication between european countries and there's s a lot stovepiping between the countries. they're much like the united states pre 9/11. the challenge in terms of the fighters is far greater for europe. the challenge for us -- the most immediate threat -- we benefit from the oceans. the more media threat are the home grown radicals. those inspired by the isis propaganda. that is pernicious. we have not done much in combatting that. i think probably because the government is poor at social media and now we're using a different strategy, a sensible one of empowering the messengers

in the muslim world to speak to this. >> rose: how do you assess the belgian and french effort. >> they began with less resources to the task. so they've been behind from the beginning. they're ramping up their personnel but it takes time and these professionals can't be trained overnight. they're playing against the clock. it shows in the tragic attacks we've seen. >> rose: and they're going through a reassessment saying what do -- did we do right and wrong and they are having to go through an agonizing reassessment. >> the fundamental question europeans have to answer is will they let information travel

faster than people. they have to make sure they're intelligence travels faster. right now it doesn't and that poses -- >> rose: people are coming faster than information. >> yes, absolutely. >> rose: the encryption battle. all of a sudden we had apple versus the fbi and the fbi suddenly and i can't wait to learn now found somebody to open the san bernardino terrorist's phone. what that do to the encryption debate? >> not very much. it takes it off the front burner in the case of involving the san bernardino shooters and the issue has become all the more acute in light of what's app's announcement they're encrypting everything and this is a spectacular change. i was a prosecutor for six years and i can't imagine as a foreign prosecutor a world in which essentially a wiretap is useless and as people migrate from

landlines to cell phones -- >> rose: does it give more sensitivity and agreement with the fbi's argument? >> it certainly gives me an appreciation for it. where search warrants have far less utility and the fact that telecommunications won't be accessible through wiretap those are enormous changes but the other enormous change and that's why the issue is so challenging for people in iran and russia and china and greece and turkey who are worried about their own government listening on what they have to say. legitimate conversations. this is equally enormous. and a legitimate argument. >> rose: they have the argument for china specifically because there are so many iphones in china. >> if china says we need you to

unlock the devices if you want to do business here. >> rose: what happens if they make that demand? >> i don't know. i do suspect and think the congress is nowhere near consensus but i do suspect the best path if we can find our way to it is to have government privacy stakeholders, technology, sit at a table like this and figure out what's within the realm of doable. i've asked the national academy of sciences to do an encryption report in the fall. that i think will help guide us. >> rose: is there a question of either we go through the courts or congress and is there developing conference it ought to be the congress? >> i think there is growing consensus it ought to be the congress. that doesn't mean the bureau in particular cases go to the court if they need to while congress works its way though it likely won't work and they will and apple is right. the issues are too big in the

weighing of privacy and security to be resolved in litigation but also apple understands it's such a dysfunctional body if you leave it to congress they're not likely to do anything but ultimately we have to balance the questions. they're enormously far-reaching. i don't think we're equipped to do it at the present. i think we need more information. one thing i'd like to know and from independence experts is the whole technological question of whether you can safely have a door if technology companies can guard their source code and guard their electronic signature why can't they retain a means when they update a phone with a court order to give access. i don't know the technological answer. i wouldn't want to rely on the tech sector. >> rose: their argument is if you force us to do it it will be

opening up phones all over the world. that's the argument. you believe there's a different way to find -- >> i don't know. i don't know. >> rose: i assume you're having conversations with apple officials. >> absolutely. >> rose: and you live in california. >> look, we want them to be successful. we need them to be successful. from not only the economic point of view for our industries to be successful even if we're locked out of encrypted technology is advantageous just across the spectrum. it's a global technology. even if we were to insist on doors here that doesn't mean others overseas will insist on doors there nor is it desirable they should. >> rose: the benghazi committee, where's it stand? >> i wish i could give you the

answer. the reality is we don't know. i'm not sure the majority knows either and this has been the problem all along. it's been a committee in search of a purpose. we have uncovered nothing that alters the core conclusions of the other eight investigations that went before. >> rose: would you say that slower. you've not altered any conclusion of a previous investigation. >> we have not found new facts reached before we began the committee. >> rose: was it the idea of the republican committee that secretary clinton lied? >> i think the operative idea is clinton must be stopped from getting to the white house but that's their political motivation. >> rose: does the benghazi incidents have resonance with the wider politics of america.

>> it plays into a narrative they'd like to tell about the secretary. >> rose: which is she's not frust -- trust worthy. >> they don't trust her and runs by a separate kind of rules. >> rose: what is your narrative on what she does at the time. >> she admits it was a mistake to use her own server and should have used the state server. >> rose: it's ian issue in the benghazi issue? >> only to the extent that the mission of the majority is

>> rose: might secretary clinton be indicted. you're in congress. you know the fbi. where is that? >> i don't think there's credibility to that. if you look at the facts the secretary receive e-mails none marked classified and those that may have been classified at the time were not marked as such and shared with outside third parties. none of the criteria you'd see in a criminal chase. >> rose: might we see an indictment. >> nothing i can see. >> rose: you supported the iran nuclear deal. there were some caveats. what were your reservations about it? >> at the end of the period of the deal in about eight or ten

years some goes on longer that iran would have a very fast and efficient industrial nuclear capability for peace and purpose but nonetheless what i thought would be a token nuclear program is a substantial program. once that happens, there's two breakout times, how long does it take to create the material and the breakout time to create the mechanism of the bomb. by the time we get to the end of ten years the breakout time in terms of material will be close to zero. they will be able to produce the material they need very quickly. that was a bitter pill to swallow. frankly only the fact that you would go from a breakout period when we started the negotiation of a matter of weeks to a year for a decade for this rigorous

process of snapping back sanctions outweighed that bitter pill we had to swallow with the agreement. >> rose: thank you. we'll have to do it again. we'll be right back. stay with us. the great tim burns is here. he's brought the documentary tradition to the forefront. his 1990 landmark film "the civil war" was the highest series on american public television and created accounts on the history of baseball, jazz and much much more. he revisits america's past time and culture with a documentary on the life and legacy of jackie robinson. here's the trailer for the film. >> he wasn't just a good player, he was a super star. >> he was up against the world. >> he had a fury in him. >> he's taking horrible abuse to death threats. >> he took on everything we were afraid to face and faced it. >> we were inspired.

>> he wasn't just a really good second baseman he changed the entire country. >> rose: jackie robinson premieres april 11 and 12 on pbs. welcome. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: why jackie robinson? >> he was a major figure in my 1994 series and we thought we'd done him and several years later his widow rachel now 93 and a remarkable formidable human being said i want you to do a stand alone and was so busy and working with my daughter about the central park five and de well -- we wale . we realized we can go to jackie.

he's smothered in mythology like washington or lincoln. we wanted to liberate him with a more complicated and truer story of the familiar stuff of the leadup, part one of our film it's a two-part series and the unknown post baseball where he's a civil rights leader and i think people will be stunned and surprised the familiar tropes of the early baseball career pee-wee reese putting his arms around him never happened and jackie robinson has agency and we like the idea of the good negro who turns the other cheek for three years but when it's no longer a requirement he returned to the man he was who was fiery and competitive and unwilling to accept discrimination and at that point he became. >> rose: he was unwilling to

accept discrimination before coming to major league. >> he got it from his mother mally. and it's in many ways a love story and a portrait of an african american family and a portrait of civil rights in the 20th century. when he walked into the diamond april 14, 1947 martin luther king was still in college. brown versus board of education hadn't happened and rosa parks was a decade away from refusing to give up her seat and we realized what a great character he was and realized this is the guy with the fiery temper who will be able to hold the temper to make the experiment work and he passes with flying colors. >> rose: you say he was not only

the most person people in baseball but one of the most important americans who ever lived. >> he's in the top 20 when you think of lincolns and jeffersons and martin luther kings. you think of the burden he carried and the fact that we're in the media business and we talk a lot. he walked the walk. he got up every day since that meeting in brooklyn heights and met with them and got up every day and tried to make the lives of other people better. >> rose: what was that moment like? >> a great moment. we always posit he would pick jackie robinson and was

pushing la guardia a liberal mayor of new york and he was beginning the fear was going to lose him and jackie fell into his lap and dispatched a scout clyde sucworth and he never said more than judas priest as an expletive screamed at him he was going to face and things people were going to yell at him and did come true and said jackie, can you not fight back. he said do you have a woman, he said yes and said good, marry her. you'll need her. it's true. without her i don't think he survives. it's too much. they form this partnership and this bond and she carries that message the dna from jackie to us to this day. it's very powerful and moving. >> rose: but do you think he doesn't get the credit? >> i think what happens is in our superficial media life that

we like to reduce things to sanitized madson avenue stories and jackie is much more complicated. we cut corners with jackie and we promote it in the 1994 series the idea pee-wee reese put his arm around him and it just takes a little investigation. there's no mention of it in the press or in the black press which would have run 20 related stories and when you're playing first base and pee-wee reese is the shortstop you don't go across the diamond and put your arm around it and there's statues and children's books about this and it's time it's no pun intended white people wanted to have more skin in the game. to think we would as a historian says we wanted to do well. what jackie went through is beyond the pale black hats on the field. the opposing teams and trouble

with his own teammates and pitches coming at his head. >> rose: when did he stop taking it? >> the first year in the minors he's with montreal which is good because they're were different about race and he did it there for two years, '47 and '48 and told he was released so he talked back to umpires and spoke out in the media why aren't the yankees integrated and they said we haven't found a black player good enough and wouldn't accept that and when he retired he used baseball as a bridge to the civil rights movement he was going out and visiting georgia and alabama on behalf of dr. king and hosting jazz concerts in his backyard and sending the money south for the efforts of the civil rights movement. he's hugely important. and he's a republican who is

supporting nixon and is disappointed when nixon won't intervene when king is thrown in jail and jackie robinson if you liberate him from the one dimensionology it's about black lives matter and stop and frisk and the burning of black churches but if you go to the '64 convention you realize that's when the republican party founded in 1854 in rippon, wisconsin with the sole purpose of abolishing slavery decides to make the switch. earlier that year there is a civil rights bill passed which a huge amount of republicans support to get it three but at that point the republican party and the goldwater campaign will

employ the southern strategy and switching from african american voting from the remember party -- >> rose: it began with the new deal. so much to talk about but i want to show one clip. it shows you the reverence. >> when you're involved in finding your self questions and to go back and have refuge with someone who you know loves you and you know has your back that's priceless. >> just being able to find that solace and peace to withstand all the negative energy it's hard to do that alone. so there's nothing more important than family than a real partnership which is probably what made him such a

great man because he had the judgment to find a partner that i think pthat part is true and sign of his character that he chose a woman that was his eq wal equal. i don't think we would have had jackie robinson without rachel. >> these are the most powerful couple and it's so moving and funny. >> rose: he says, yes, she's right. >> he's nodding, yes, yes. >> rose: i think he's nodding because he's somewhat of the same way. >> these are a couple hurdling through different time and space and this is an african american man going through a door and all drawing sustenance by the

example and fortitude. he said when you're going home and has somebody who loves you and has your back that's what jackie felt with rachel. he began to speak of what he did on the field he would say what we did as if the spectacular play the hall of fame career he had was theirs and they could together weather the storm as rachel says in the film. >> rose: how good was he as a player? >> howard bryant says he's arguably the best american athlete ever. >> rose: ever? >> don't think he's the best baseball player i think he's the most important. there's no other baseball player whose number is retired in all stadiums and no one but mariano

rivera is allowed to wear it except when everybody wears it to the batboy. major league baseball was wonderful. that was the place where the experiment happened. the first real great progress, societal progress, cultural progress after the civil war happens in baseball. and baseball has sometimes not lead but followed but retiring his number speak volumes how jackie was. he said a life is measured by the difference it makes in other people's lives and he lived that and that's an amazing testament. i feel that what sara and dave and i have been able to do is remove the fog and mystery like a statue saying here's the real man complicated and much more interesting and inspiring. >> rose: why did you choose

jamie foxx? >> we doesn't want first-person voices because we had witnesses but there were enough things jackie said in his writings and columns and love letters to rachel that would fall outside the purview of even rachel's memory and i went to jamie and he said yes i said i want you to be the voice from the grave reading the dozen or so quotes we have throughout the episodes to sort of hear from him. and there's sometimes you want to hear from him. when he's turning the other cheek how he wanted to turn to the philadelphia phillies dugout and go smash out the guy's teeth. he doesn't hear it but it's good to hear that's what was running through him so it's not just the saintly jesus-like robinson who turns the other cheek. >> rose: so what was like after

baseball? >> complicated. family tragedies involved, activity with the civil rights movement and a developing relationship with rachel. she wanted a job and a career and she had to educate him and set him straight and like dr. king not an advocate of vial solutions when malcolm x said we should not turn the other cheek he's talking about jackie robinson so there's a home of the black panthers when they're calling him an uncle tom when he was the sit-in person before sit-ins. >> rose: this is rachel robinson. this remarkable woman who stood by him and was a voice as strong for him. here it is. >> we went to our first spring

training on our honeymoon. i was terrible. we were bumped from two planes to get there and bumped in new orleans and pensacola, florida and white passengers were put on in our place. i've never seen signs on rest rooms and water faucets and that kind of thing. i went into the white ladies to recover the sense of myself and went in and did what i had to do and the ladies walked out. we finally took a bus to spring training. then jacksonville on our honeymoon. we went to the back of the bus. and when it got dark i start to the cry because i felt my great husband who had been a fighter and a dignified person had been

reduced by discrimination and by segregation. >> rose: will we ever get past race or should we ever get past race? >> you know, when you realize all the stuff that was happening with jackie is still happening, the pessimist in us would say no, this is the american original sin. it's the human sin. the love of one's own metastasizes into the legacy of another and the way we respond to that is different among us and we still have a lot of folks who still don't judge people by the content of their character as dr. king said but by the color of their skin. i sort of firmly believe i had an opportunity here to interview the president of the united states and the first lady who are african american in a film about the first african american to play in baseball. i have to be -- and i think

history makes you an optimist. there was a thing in our roosevelt film where franklin roosevelt had a sense that history was a rising road. i have to believe that otherwise we can get better. we must do better. we have to. the only way is to confront it. you can't run from it which is what we always do. >> rose: thank you for coming. great to see you. ken burns part one and two on the great jackie robinson coming up on pbs. thank you for joining us. see you next time. >> for more about this program visit us online at pbs.org and charlie rose.com.

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