> >> good evening, i'm david axelrod filling in for charlie rose who's off tonight. we begin with a look at the upcoming new york presidential primary. i'm joined by glenn thrush of "politico," alex wagner of msnbc and alex burns of "the new york times." >> president obama talks about one of the things that he wanted to do when he came into office was to entheus a new generation of americans to vote and participate in their government. and the question is after a scorched earth campaign in november with two people that a lot of people really don't like, what happens to the american electorate? >> we conclude with "60 minutes" correspondent lesley stahl. her new book is called "becoming grandma: the joys and science of the new grant parenting." >> in all of time, from going back to the cavemen, you know, grandmothers were rationing children. it is in our species.

it's the way it was meant to be. it's the natural course of things. and then along came the industrial revolution and we got the nuclear families and all of that. and what is supposed to be got separated. so when a grandmother has this feeling, i think it's because it's what is meant to be. and the children need us because we in history and going back, we nurture them. we made sure they survived. that's why grandmothers, in all other, most other animals, they die when they can no longer reproduce. so why are grandmothers here, to take care of the grand children. >> the presidential race and lesley stahl when we continue. >> funding for charlie rose is provided by the following:

and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. >> from our captioning sponsored by rose communications studios in new york city, this is charlry rose. >> good evening. i'm david axelrod filling in for charlie rose who's off tonight. the eyes of the political world are on new york this week in advance of tuesday's delegate rich primaries. both donald trump and hillary clinton currently hold double digit leads in contests that could give us new clues as to how this long and unexpected primary see may send. here to shed some light on all of this is a seasoned panel of observers. glenn thrush of "politico" and host of the off message podcast. alex burns of "the new york times," and alex wagner. she's an nbc analyst and guest correspondent on showtime's the circus. welcome to all of you. and speaking of the circus, what

better place to have a circus than the biggest big top of all, new york. you glenn have been around this town for a long time. you grew up here and cut your teeth as a reporter here. why is it so crazy. >> the truth of the matter on the democratic side, it's actually a strangely dramaless primary in terms of the actual action on the ground. trump hasn't been here all that much. sanders is drawing big crowds. he had a big one in the west village and there's been some back and forth. but he doesn't seem to be closing the tbap all that much. i think the issue here is watching the sanders campaign collide with the tabloid press has really been the big show. hillary i think really knows how to handle herself with this stuff. i was around in 2 thousand and 2001 when she really learned to master the tabloid folks. and as you know it takes some doing. watchie bernie sanders who has been touting to everybody his bona fides as a james madison high school brooklyn guy, who knows the city, he's been in vermont for a really long time.

>> the burlington press probably isn't quite as active as the new york tabloids. so do you get the sense that she feels like now you're on my court? >> i think she is pretty trepdaciou s. i done think these are great times are not clinton campaign at the moment. it's a weird suspended animation period. because as you know, having worked with you in 2008 when you would call us relentilessly and remind us what the delegate counts were, as hillary was winning primary after primary, west virginia, kentucky. >> i have a vague recognizeician-- recollection of that. >> she has the numbers very much on her side but is he drawing the big crowds and garnering a lot of excitement and he has at this moment the illusion of momentum even though he is down by 12 to 14 points depending on the poll. so i think there is a sense of annoyance, of anxiety. and i think she really wants to close it out here. >> there is the illusion of momentum. and then there's the mass of the delegates as glenn mentioned. how big is new york for bernie

sanders? >> oh, i think it's huge. i think the illusion of momentum is actually going to be enormously important for him over the remaining six weeks of the campaign because the delegate count is so dawnlting. that if he doesn't have the sense that he is a locomotive picking up steam, then why are you in this race anyway. because would you need to win delegates by a staggering margin going forward to overtake her. so if he were able to close this thing to the mid to low single digits in her home state, i think that would be the kind of warning side that would lead a lot of people to say well, maybe the voters aren't ready to be done with this just yet. but, and this is as true for the republicans actually as the democrats. in order for there to be a case to be made against the frontrunner at the convention, you do need the challenger to do really well over the last stretch of the campaign. starting in new york and running through california and new jersey. and those are all states that favor the current leaders. clinton on the democratic side, trump of course on the republican side. >> alex, you've patrolled the progressive

predising-- precincts as it were. why is it that bernie sanders has made so little inroads into the minority community. >> i spent time with bern ye sanders down in the south, in the middle of the country. you talk to minority voters that are supporting clinton. they know the clintons, they understand the clintons. they think clinton is a realist and also it is really important that clinton served barack obama as secretary of state. her allegiance to him, she has bear hugged him throughout the primary season. i think minority voters appreciate that, understand that and that matters to them. i asked sanderses, does it matter to you, is it personally frustrating that you don't seem to be-- the meses age doesn't seem to be resonating with minority voters. and he got really angry. he was not happy about that. but his wife jane was standing there, and she said yes, it does. i think in large part because sanders sees himself as the stewart of a set of economic policies that would especially

help minority americans. and they're not hearing it. you know, like you look add-- glenn is right to point out new york as a sort of pet ree dish for many, many aspect-- aspects of this campaign. one of the most, i think the worse pieces of press bernie sanders has gotten in the last month is the interview he did with the new york daily news. that is a paper that is read by a lot of lower income minority new yorkers. the new york daily news subsequently endorsed hillary clinton and called bernie sanders in that endorsement a fantacist that is not a good thing for bernie sanders trying to reach out no new york minority voters. >> a big factor with sanders is the fact thary is cover-- you cover african-american voters talk about pov the, not income inequality. his answers during the debate where he sort of talked about hillary was talking about 450 years, the legacy of inequality and prejudice, and talking about issues having to do specifically

with race-based prejudice and he was talking about these more antiseptic issues of income inequality. i think that precisely is the tone that african-american voters are turned off by. >> it's interesting, the message that he is selling about what things would look like if they were et abouter, an older time, you know, a time, a generation ago when things genuinely were better. when unions had more power, that kind of nostalgia for more traditional new deal liberalism, may resonate with voters in the midwest, white voters in the midwest. things were not that great for black americans in the 1950st, right so this notion that in the heyday of theu a-w we were all so much better off. not for a lot of people. >> there's also a very, very strong identification with this president who is symbolic of progress, in a very big way. and bernie has-- sanders has not always been on board with the president.

>> and central to his message is things have gotten so bad. the system is totally broken. the system is totally rigged. the president of the united states is a democrat. d for black voters, i think that that distinction is not lost on them. >> so in the last week it seems to me that he's kind of tuned up his rhetoric in many ways. but a lot of it focuses on the record as it relates to racial progress during the clinton years. so the crime bill which he actually voted for but also the welfare reform bill is that an effective-- is that an effective tactic to attack the bill clinton record, as it were? >> i think the crime bill matters with younger black voters. you saw bill clinton was sort of pulled into a shouting match with black lives matter protestors last week. that is a fired up group of young folks who think about the '94 crime bill and see it as the sort of, if not the root cause, a sort of foundational aspect for the mass incarceration, the

reason we have a mass incarceration state. so in that way, you know, if bernie sanders is trying to bring more minority voters in, you made the point that a lot of younger minority voters are not as engaged, aligning himself with-- i think a plank of the black lives matter movement which is criticism of the '94 crime bill, is a wise move at this point. >> what about that outburst of president clinton, you know, my observation has been, i mean i saw him in 2012. he was probably the most effective surrogate that barack obama had in the 2012 election and he has been a great surrogate on behalf of many other candidates. there's only one candidate for whom he's not a great surrogate for. why is that? >> my colleague did a really good story a couple of days ago on the-- on this dynamic. and i saw it in iowa when i was covering bill clinton. he without carry around little sheets of paper like color photo copies showing bar charts of growth during the clinton administration. and i'm thinking, like,

who's-- what candidates, which clinton is running for president here. i think that has really accentuated it self over the last week. and we wrote a story sort of where we kroated-- quoted charlie wrangel, the vennerrable outgoing congressman from harlem saying why is he talking so much about himself. i think that is your occupational hazard when are you dealing with bill clinton. >> that was an amazing thing for him to say on the record and publicly like that. but i do think that in some ways if you think back to the reaction to bill clinton's outburst this year versus 20089, it's almost priced in now that this guy is going to wander off the reservation, get into fights with protestors, say things he shouldn't say. his confrontation with the black lives mat err activists was so much worse than that famous, this whole thing is the biggest fairey tale i've ever seen episode in 2008. but back then it was such a shock that this guy who was supposed to be just a master of the craft was undermining his own life like that. >> clinton, i think you're right has been more disciplined or he has been more disciplined.

>> on this issue of sanders reaching into the black community, he reached out for a high level aide to produce an ad for him in this closing days of this new york primary to try and reach the african-american votes, spike lee did a spot for him. and i want you guys to take a look at that. >> people of color have a deeply invested interest in what bernie sanders brings to us in this election. >> people like michael brown, sandra bland and my father eric garner. >> they're not just hashtags and trending topics. but these are mothers and fathers, sons and daughters. >> bernie sanders sees all of me. he sees all of you. he sees us as a whole people, as a whole country, that's why i am voting for bernie sanders. >> bernie sanders, i have a of prothis message. >> will that, alex, will that

have a major impact on this race. >> look, i think hillary has be going around the country with the so called mother, the mothers of the movement as they call themselves. a lot of high profile mothers whose children have been felled by gun violence and specifically at the hands of police officers. so i'm not sure that at this stage of the game it makes a great deal of difference for sanders to try to get in that pool. i guess my question for this whole season is, does the high profile nontraditional endorsement matter. the fact that bernie sanders has spike lee making ads for him. the fact that hillary clinton has lena dunham and you know, amy schumer on her side. i'm not quite clear, i feel like there's a real line in the sand amongst young voters or people who could be swayed one way or the other. they have their sort of allegiance at this point. it doesn't really matter what cultural spokesperson come out one one way or the other. >> i was joking about the 2008 campaign but the quality of the

opposition really matters. and i think sanders folks have been a little slow on this. the night that he pivoted to new york and was giving his kind of i'm coming to new york for you, hillary speech, he did it from wyoming. look, you know, i think the optics of this am ka pain, he's won a majority of most of his biggest victories, largest margins have been in white areas and today he said something really, i think that might come back to haunt him about hillary clinton, cleaning up in these southern primaries. sort of spoke about it in a derogatory way. i done think that is going-- i've gotten six e-mails from the clinton people and i don't think that will go over particularly well. >> it is also really striking how he has chosen to contest new york state. obviously you need to do something. there are big stretches of the state, update, the suburbs that look a lot more like the places that he has typically been winning. and you see this on actually the republican side too. that ted cruz and john kasich ght to donald trump in thehe art of trumpland. and all these guys t is awfully

hard to break through in a city of this size, that is this expensive to campaign. sanders is spending millions of dollars on new york city television in a place are you probably not going to shall did shall it. >> he has millions of dollars to spend. i think one of the things that hasn't been noted is the advantage he has had in spending in some of these states. and it has been helpful. but you are right, this is a very difficult market. you know, upstate he is running even. but in the suburbs and in the city, he should be running stronger. >> he can be blowing it out. >> that's how he wins michigan. if you look at the map in michigan, every precinct that's not basically a core democratic precinct, every rural area in the state, every more moderate down scale white, he was winning massively. >> you've got areas up there that have been really adversely affected by the changes in the economy over the years, loss of manufacturing, base and so on. >> to alex's point, i think to a certain extent this is where the

mass does matter. he's making a larger argument. remember, he can't do this without superdelegates and he's at an extremely huge disadvantage to hillary on superdelegates. to a certain extent it's more important for bernie sanders to close the gap and improve his numbers with african-americans. so from an optics perspective and the politics going up the road, part of the reason he's putting his resources down state is to make the argument that he is not a whites only candidate. >> here is my question and it's not, i think they've run a remarkable campaign. nobody would have predicted at the beginning of this that bernie sanders would be where he is. but time is getting short. and the question is, you know, we talk about closing the gap. it seems to me he has to open up a gap. and start winning places as you suggest. if he comes out of here with a participation ribbon, i'm not sure. >> they do give those. >> but david, i mean you know this as well, new york state is a close primary. and bernie sanders does much better when independents can vote in the primary.

>> meaning only registered democrats. >> and registration deadline passed last month. unless are you an organized registered democrat are you not voting in this primary on april 19th. >> or a trump child. >> that's right. you know, bernie sanders had 27,000 people in gren itch village not the west village, glenn, last night. you know new york. >> but the question-- but there's a real question, how many of those folks are fuel actually going to be able to vote in the primary and there are seven more closed primaries coming up on the calender, that is a big problem when are you talking about momentum. he gets the big crowds but what are the vote numbers. >> just as hillary clinton is accustomed to the new york to be lloyd culture and what all that entails, you would have to say donald trump has been a part of that for his whole adult life. is he at an advantage in this town? >> i think it's interesting you would say that he has an adult life. he was-- look, the dude was in bon fair of the vanities, you know.

look, i think it has given him the luxury to not be here. to some extent. like he has done a lot of his campaigning out of the state because what is the latest numbers on kasich as he cracked 120%. yet i mean trump is going to be, he has to hit that 50% threshhold and he's been doing some events here. did he one out of long island. but i think the one thing that it's done for him is just given him-- it's ironic that it's given him the ability not to actually be here. >> it has also spared him the spectacle of being confronted by protests of a kind that he probably has not seen previously in the campaign. can you imagine donald trump holding a rally, you know, over a grand army plaza or something, right. the spectacle of that. >> the one in downtown chicago that didn't go very well. >> and in that vein, i think a lot of us would have expected massive protests outside trump tower every day this week. he's not even in town. and from the media perspective that's really a shame. >> we've talked about the mass. on the democratic side. and the fact that bernie sanders

appears to have momentum, and is behind, and that is a source of frustration to his supporters. you have sort of the opposite situation on the republican side where donald trump is ahead and yet he appears poised to have a pretty big victory here and in some of the states that are coming up the following week in the northeast. and yet all of the speculation is that he may not make it. and so that's given rise to this whole mantra of his that the system is being rigged. run down the math of this for us. >> well, if trump were to really run the table in new york, to get 95 delegates or close to it, suddenly you're within 400 of that final total. >> the magic 1237. >> just on the last day of voting in new jersey and california you have over a hundred delegates on the table. those are two states where he is expected to do very well, in between is where it gets really

tricky. you have this line-up of states all throughout may starting with indiana, running through south dakota, montana, these are ted cruz kind of states. so you're going to have, i think, a pretty predictable coming and going of the tide in the republican race. and ultimately what may matter more than exactly how close to 1237 trump gets is you know whether his national numbers, whether his general election numbers continue to deter rate in the way that they have because the party is going to need to, even if they can, hold him to 1237. they have to make some kind of moral case for why they're not just ripping the blue ribbon out of the rightful winners hands. >> when you were out there, alex, for the circus, you, did you get a chance to talk to some of the trump voters? >> i was not-- i was not in the trump room. i will say living in new york city and being someone with a parent apparent new york values, i agree with glenn that i think this is just sort of a taylor made place for donald trump. but you know, the biggest

problem that we're seeing to your point, alex, is infrastructure in advance of, i mean, the long game has never been donald trump's strong suit. and i don't know that anybody could. >> that saul policy. >> i don't know that anybody could have predicted that it would look like we would have a contested convention but what you've seen in the last week is donald trump scrambling to bring in veterans whether it's scott walker's campaign chair or paul manafort. people that know how this process works. >> paul mana frt who was ford's man at the 1976 scon vengs which is the last contested convention. >> you know, cruz has very slewedly been very involved in the delegate selection process. and if he-- i mean if trump gets to 12 pa, there is i think a likelihood that senator cruz will be the nominee. >> you know, it seems to me that either donald trump is going to be the nominee on the first ballot or ted cruz is likely to be the nominee on some subsequent ballot.

but it is hard to see ted cruz almost impossible to see him being the nominee on the first ballot. and it's hard, as i said, hard to see trump going beyond that. if trump gets close, there are-- there is this group of unbound delegates out there, a few hundred of them. can they-- enough of them to get over the line. i assume that's what mana fort is concentrating on. >> i think they probably can. if they get even within 50 delegates of that 1237 mark, that's going to be a moment where the whole republican party leadership has to look in the mirror and have a gut check and imagine cleveland in flames and ask themselves how badly do we want to deny him this nomination just so that we can nominate ted cruz. if it were a contest between trump add a guy who they felt really good about for the general election, it might be different. but under those circumstances, when the anti-trump folks would really need to run the table in those unpledged delegates and trump is flying them down to his golf courses and giving them

free hotel rooms which is he mostly allowed to. >> you can actually give cash to delegates. >> trips on air trump one. >> air trump which is actually a pretty old plane but it's plenty of gold in it. under those circumstances, it gets really tough to see the party stealing itself for the kind of massive rift that would come out of that convention. >> do you, alex raises a really interesting point which is there probably isn't a more hated person among establishment republicans in washington than ted cruz who has made a point of going after them, the washington car tell, until a few weeks ago he talked about the washington war tell. he has now their on his team. >> yeah. >> so how, how ironic is that. and what do you hear from when you talk to republicans, privately. i guess they're pretty public about. >> this is just one of the great spectacles. the line i remember i did a story about a year ago about ted

cruz where some republican operative said that the only thing less popular on capitol hill than ted cruz was a cash bar. >> and then to watch lindsay graham, i mean to me that was a real moment in the campaign, lid see graham who had just uncorked on-- uncorked on krudz, just hates everything that cruz stood for, just holding his nose. what did he say, the difference between being shot and taking poison. >> he meant that in a niceway. >> in the nicest possible way. but the notion that ted cruz, this is one of the wonderfuls could mick ironies of this proseses. the notion that ted cruz would be the presentable mainstream candidate. and by the way, ted cruz has arguably run probably the best campaign of anybody this year. >> and that's an important point. >> it isn't just that he has scoped out this delegate process better. he from the very beginning, was the most strategic. he understood that in a field of 17, if he could command evangelicals in iowa, that he could win the first contest. and he had a plan from start to

finish. he knew all the rules of every state from the beginning. this is not a new development. >> he's got this jeff row, his top guy is probably for those of us that cover the inside game here is considered to be really one of the real rising stars in this constellation. i was talking to a krudz person the other day. and they're talking about sort of the evangelical vote. they said look at his liberty speech, his liberty university speech that he used to kick off the campaign which is largely remembered as this kind of geri fallwell thing. he said the entire second half was about economics, about blue clar economics and trade. and they feel now that they are no longer being challenged from the right by any candidate, that they can move freely towards the economic stuff. so from a messaging perspective the cruz campaign is in a comfortable situation particularly going into states like indiana. >> when you, in retrospect, the amazing strategic innovation of the ted cruz campaign is the most conservative candidate will

probably win the republican primary, right, which when you think back on the raggal for how rubio could be the nominee, jeb could be the nominee t seems obvious looking back on it, well, of course are you not going to outline ted cruz with this republican primary electorate and really the only man who might is a guy who totally defies idea logical labels and is running as this sort of third world strong man time candidate. >> i would bring up alex, your questioning as to whether the gop establishment opt for cruz knowing that it would tear the party in half. i hear from other republicans, you know, establishment republicans, moderate republicans, pe would much rather see ted cruz lose in november because the implications for the party would be much clearer than if it was done ald trump at the top of the ticket. >> it was swump. >> you have heard conservative republicans say now for several cycles, if we just nominated a true conservative and not one of these center right or the of, you know, moderates in their

view, john mccain, mitt romney, that we would win. because we would mobilize all these voters who have been estranged from voting generally and from the republican party. so the notion of cruz gives them a pure test of that issue. the theory is that if donald trump is the candidate, it won't be clear and you'll have all the factions blaming each other for the loss. if in fact trump loses. and before we leave i want to get to what that general election would look like. >> i do think that-- i mean that theory of the case totally makes sense on its own internal logic. i do think it preseums a level of self-awareness and honesty on the part of the cruz coalition that may not entirely exist. you can totally imagine ted cruz gets just shell aked in the fall and the narrative from the hard right coming out of the election is well, if the bush family hadn't undercut him f the establishment hadn't betrayed him f so many republican donors

hadn't secretly channeled money to hillary clinton we could have won this and we will try it again in four years. >> what will it look like, because hillary clinton absent ted cruz and donald trump would be the least popular nominee of a major party since these polls have been taken. her unfavourables are in the low 50st. but theirs are higher. what does it mean when you have candidates on both sides who have very, very high negatives. what does it more tend for the general election? >> you've seen the movie reservoir dogs. imagine that as a three to four month campaign. it's going to be the most negative. because look, trump's-- i saw a poll, trump's general disapproval, again erich disapproval now is north of 65% regularly with polls. and there was a metric i had not actually seen before of people who, i think the poll question was would you ever, ever, ever

in a million years vote for somebody and 63% said sort of a national lickly vote said no, i would never, ever, ever vote for donald trump. these are astronomical numbers. this is before the democrats des have run a single ad against them. >> so i just think, i just think the name of this game, particularly on the clinton side will be scorched earth. and it's just going to be really, really ugly. >> i think you also have to ask the question what does this mean for american democracy. fueled by an anti-institutional as a feeling of anger and rage, sorry sanders and trump its insurgents are fueled by this feeling that the system has failed. now if you have two candidates like trump and clinton who are not liked, what does that more tend for young people, people who are looking to go into the government. what does it more tend for the institution of american democracy on hold. president obama talks about one of the things that he wanted to do when he came into office was to enthu se a new generation of

americans to vote and participate in their government. and their question is after a scorched earth campaign in november with two people that a lot of people really don't like, what happens to the american electorate. >> we should say in fairness that hillary clinton's numbers are a little bit different in that she is possible laugh-- popular despite the sanders campaign. and some of the exuberances there. she is pretty popular among democrats. there seems to be more coherence to democrats than republicans at this point. >> and that's why i think in addition to the scorched earth campaign that thrush was just outlining, you will see sorlt of interesting phenomenon against either trump or cruz that on a parallel track from the scorched earth campaign you will have a campaign of kind of a reassurance and trying to give republicans and moderate independents who wouldn't normally vote for a democrat are em loo foe nor hillary clinton some permission slip that makes it okay. >> right. >> that just this one time only,

it's okay to go against your better, your gut insinks-- instincts and vote for hillary clinton for president because a lot of those people, the 63% who said they would never vote for trump, they could just stay home or you know with the right set of validaters, with the right kind of reassurance message, maybe some percentage of them, i think particularly republican women can be per intaided that in the interest of just kind of keeping things normal and not too crazy, in the country, just you know, go with the one who you don't like but who you basically know. >> not too crazy. >> what about if ted cruz is the candidate, how does the race different than it would be if it were trump. >> well, what's funny is looking from at the battle field from the clinton side, i think everybody on her campaign would sort of like it to be trump s. from a rational perspective, it is it is biggest garbage truck but the candidate herself, i

think. >> there is an irrational component. >> i think the candidate herself and the candidate's husband are extremely apprehensive about the possibility of facing this guy. particularly when you have people, characters like roger stone running around talking about, you know, bodies buried in shallow graves. >> ted cruz does not get any of mythical ross over vote that donald trump does from blue clar democrats who are frustrated about labor and trade policy. the thing i would say about ted cruz, david, is you will see a lot of attention on the part of paul ryan in terms of shoring up the house and senate. and you will probably see that with trump too. but you know, there's going to be real concern about the senate and making sure that the house margin doesn't get too tight for republicans. >> in the last week as i mentioned earlier, you have heard donald trump talk about the illegitimacy of the process, that it's rigged, that it's stacked. that he's being cheated. that this nomination is being stolen. how do his supporters not walk

away after that, after a steady dose of that. and what promises to be a very acrimonious run up to the convention and perhaps convention. >> many of them almost certainly would. and that's why a lot of republicans at this point have made their peace with ted cruz mostly because is he a more predictable, rational candidate who they feel like is a party they can at least communicate with. but there is totally a scenario where nominating cruz is even worse for the party than nominating trump because the trump vote stays home. and all the people, all the sort of more moderate or center right republicans, suburban voters, women in particular, who would have deserted trump also desert cruz so his floor may be even lower than trumps in a general election. >> what did everyone miss about this, what did everyone miss about-- cuz i sure did. i was very dismissive. i thought he would be gone by winter. and i think most people felt the same way. what went wrong in terms of the evaluation of done add-- donald

trump as a candidate. >> i think there still is with trump this huge inside the bubble, outside the bubble dynamic in how he's perceived by his supporters and people who fundamentally do not buy into the premise of trump. i think that, thinking back to where we all were last screun when he declared, i think there was this assumption among people in places like new york and washington that the rest of the country is in on the joke. that everybody knows his real state empire, is not exactly as he presents it. that the apprentice is a game show. and you know, i think going around the country and talking to people who support trump, they talk about his business career the way people on wall street might talk about warren buffett or michael bloomberg, that they really believe he is one of the amazing entrepreneurs of our time. and i do think that there was this assumption that his campaign was self-evidently d it persisted so long, that nobody decided to point it out until he already won new hampshire by a guy dan particular margin. >> some of the things that he,

you know, that he got ridiculed for the wall, the muslim ban and so on, those resonated with a lot of people in this country. >> people have a real, and i travel around the country, i have inlaws all throughout the country. and i spent a lot of time in bat on rouge, louisiana, for instance. and i think people have a sense of loss. people feel particularly older white folks feel that the country that they sort of bought into, that they said the pledge of allegiance for in elementary school doesn't exist to a certain extent. and there are any number of factors that have to do with that. and one of the things, and david you have an understanding of this having been in the white house. the presidency, you know, every four years we perpetuate this illusion that the presidency is the most powerful institution in the world and the president controls everything. i think there is a sense as the world becomes more difficult to

control, as the threat of terrorism grows, as things, as people have a sense that external, external forces are imposing themselves on the country, that the appeal of having someone who says not only will i be a strong president, but by implication, the presidency itself and the country itself will reclaim that roll is enormously powerful. i think that is really what we missed with trump. the fact that this guy is not just asserting himself but saying that the role of the presidency is going to be one that fits the historical vision of it. >> i think you also can't understatement estimate the role of how much the media landscape has changed. donald trump is a reality television star. reality tv and the way in which conflict is on centre stage is an incredibly pervasive con seat in american culture. the culture has changed. the media landscape has changed. donald trump has been, you know, serendipitously perfectly situated at the nextus of all of

that. he understands how to deliver a message with authenticity, how to talk to people without losing the mainstream media and he understands how to stoak conflict. and offer a fairly thin resolution to that conflict, where these panaceas, mexico is going to pay for the wall, et cetera. but he knows that he is not really going to be checked on that. and he understands the message. >> but he is checked on it, and that doesn't seem to matter. >> i get the sense from some of his supporters that they feel the same people who are ridiculing trump, being disrespectful to trump, disdainful of trump are disdainful of them. >> it's one of the, you know, on just a really basic obvious level, the most amazing accomplishment i think for trump is to have made himself this extraordinarily wealthy man who lives in a triplex on fifth avenue, as this spirit animal of the white working class. i do think you are right. when they see him saying that his national security plan is i will find the douglas mcarthur

of this generation and put him in charge, and people like us sort of snicker at that, these are people who remember douglas mcarthur, they have seen the movies about mcarthur and paten, red the history, some of them lived through that and remember it as a better time. so why are we all laughing at it. >> alex mentioned authenticity. did you a podcast with hillary clinton recently. this word hounds her. and it doesn't appear to be many people sometimes that she is connecting. it is like there's some sort of screen there, what is that? and were you able to penetrate that in your podcast. >> i don't know how good i was at that. >> you have known her for a long time. >> i've covered her on and off from 2 thousand. i hadn't really sat down with an interview for her in about a decade. when i covered her in the national, what a lot of people are miss being this go around for hillary is in 2007 and 2008

she was in became shape from the first day, you know, she had just won her senate re-election. weigh she was dealing with us, i was working for the tabloid press in new york at that time. so she had a real mode of operation that sorlt of brought her down. i think when your secretary of state and you're flying around the world and you're rich and you're giving all these speeches and you retire to one of your two mansions, i think there is shall-- she kind of got the bends coming down from the penthouse, right, to a certain extent. what is-- the thing with her is what is authenticity, right. it's so hard to sort of define authenticity t is what people and voters think authenticity is. and i think the problem with her, and this was an interesting element of the conversation. i said to her, you know, essentially your speeches are terrible. you know, i saw you in iowa and it was like you were reading a list, you know. if you go to a bern ye sanders thing you can right it down on the back of a nap kin, you know exactly what the message was.

and she said to me, look, i think running for the presidency is a serious thing and i'm going to be as detailed as i want to be. and i am dead set on running this kind of campaign. >> she also knows she's not all that good at the performance art. and she said it she said bill clinton, barack obama, they have that skill. i don't have it it seems like policy is not just something she leave believes in but also her sword and shield. >> the other thing about it, let's be frank here. the clintons are not necessarily known over the course of their career for telling the truth all the time. you know, i thought it was interesting. i opened up the conversation, i am a terrible flier and hillary clinton is an excellent flier. one of the things i asked her is how do you fly. she toll the story of being in arkansas, flying around in crop dusters and the door coming off the plane. on one of these flights. i got more e-mails from people asking me to check that anecdote out to see if it was true. and that is incredibly telling, that people would doubt something as innocuous as that

kind of anecdote. >> let's just gound the table as we close this discussion, and do what is always scary to do when you're sitting in a taped conversation. but what is going to happen? who is going to be the next president of the united states? >> i think there has to be an extra con cleuns-- confluence of the events for the republican to strong anybody for a general election. i won't say who is going to be raising their hand at the inauguration but i think it's pretty much consensus. >> is it going to be a he or at the republican convention. >> it's true. >> are you going to be bolder. >> i will say that most people think hillary clinton will be the next president. it's interesting, there has been no time on what that administration might look like and what it would mean for the which but i think that is the most likely outcome. >> i think it will be closer than people-- just because, if there is one thing i know from having covered hillary there is never an easy election for this woman. so the more we talk about how

disadvantaged the republicans are, the more i feel like this is going to, you know, we'll see pennsylvania tightening at the very end regard will of who the candidate is, but to quote someone wiser than me, tim miller, the former bush communications director, he said to me, he now thinks that hillary clinton-- swreb bush, i'm sorry. he said to me he now thinks that hillary clinton could beat donald trump from jail, okay. >> is on that note, glenn thrush, alex wag nr, alex burns, thanks so much for being here. >> thanks, david. >> the great lesley stahl is here. she has said i was born on my 30th birthday. everything up until then was prenationallal. that was the day that cbs news hired her. since then she has had an i lose trus career in broadcast journalism winning 11 emmy awards. for 25 years she has been a

correspondent on "60 minutes." now she turns her gaze inward on the experience of being a grandmother. her new book is you will kad becoming grandma, the joys and science of the new grandparenting. cokeie roberts said her wise answers are both scientific and practical. this is a wonderfully fun read about an important subject. as always, i'm pleased to have lesley stahl back at this table. welcome. >> you make me melt. i am a now a puddle. >> rose: i certainly hope so. i will try to do that. so her is what-- let's just walk through the business of the idea. >> okay. >> rose: you show know and you are experiencing something when your grand children are born. and are you a hard-driving journalist. as i said to you this morning, why are you doing this all the time, because your appetite for the story has not diminished one bit. >> that's true. >> rose: so that love is there and not been diminished. but all of a sudden you say i'm

a grandma. and it's really neat. and i really love it. >> but how the book came about, you'll love. >> rose: okay. >> because the publisher david rosenthal said lesley, i want you to write a book about "60 minutes." >> rose: yeah. >> charlie, you're at "60 minutes." i said are you crazy? i'm going to talk about my colleagues. i thought to myself either i will tell the truth and they'll fire me, or it will be the most boring book you ever read. so i said i'm not doing that. th's nuts. and then i tban to talk about my grand children, if he him. >> not but, no, i'm not doing the book, so then we turned to having our lunch. just easing and just schmoozing. and i kept coming back to my grand children. he finally said to me, you know, that's your book. and i thought about it, you know, i would like to write about them. >> rose: because what had been going on in your experience. >> i was so surprised at the depth of the emotion, of the

kind of jolting bonding, if you will, with the babies. i never expected that. it just came out of nowhere. and i thought-- . >> rose: was it different from having children? >> oh, very, completely different. >> rose: how so? >> because it is undivided with a grand child. there's no worrying. there's no saying i have to raise them. there's no saying did i get them to the doctor on time. have i forgotten to pick them up. none of that. >> rose: so what is it? >> it's love. it's a dulter ated pure, deep, loving in a way you've never done it before. >> rose: so all of a sudden are you not think being lesley, you're thinking about them. >> i'm not divided. i'm not worrying about anything. my attention is completely focused. i am in realtime. and everything they do is brilliant. everything they do is wonderful. everything they do is genius. >> rose: what do they call you. >> they call me lolli. >> rose: loli. >> so what is in this book?

>> well, this idea that you are having a whole new kind of love, is part of it. a whole business about granny nannies. these are women who are taking care of their grand children one day, two days, three days a week because they're their children, the mother parents of the babies are both working. they're not earning as much as we did. it's simply need our help. and child care is desperately expensive. it can cost more than college. and so they need us in a way we did not need our parents. >> rose: other than filling your heart, what other change has it been for you? >> oh, it's been huge. >> rose: it's been huge. my whole outlook on my future, my whole relationship with my daughter has gotten-- . >> rose: gotten. >> much closer. we always had a great relationship but it's gotten closer. we're in the project together.

even though i live across the country. and we can talk about more things together. i just, and i'm happier. i love being a grandmother. i guess when i say that to people who know me at work, they're saying wow, she's really changed. >> rose: because your reputation at work is tough, hard driving, get the story lesley. that's who you are. >> yeah, but you know that's not really. >> rose: i'm just telling you bns but therefore when you see this book and you hear i gushing. >> rose: yeah, gushing, people say-- oh my god. this is really happened to her because it seems, and it is, genuine. >> oh, it's totally genuine. but it's really not who i am, obviously. it's me. just a little more revealing, i guess. >> rose: oh you mean this side of you was always there, just the grand children brought it ot. >> i guess, yeah. it's mystical, and i thought i was, you know, the only one.

and then i went out and wrote the book and have i been interviewing grandmothers and step grandmothers snd surrogate grandmothers and we are a all this in together but we don't know that. now we are will know it. >> rose: is it different for grandfathers? ness. >> grandfathers get just as beso thed, just as gaga. >> rose: especially about granddaughters. >> especially about granddaughters, i don't know, i have seen a lot of grandfathers just as attentive andy gooey with grandsons. i think it happens just a little later. grandmothers are attached to the newborn in a bio chemical way. there is the whole business, i say the science, there is a lot in there aout the bio chemistry of holding your grand child. grandfathers seem to need a little more connection so the kids have to be a little older so for the grandfather to hook in this. but once he's hooked, he can be even more attentive than a grandmother. >> rose: this is from becoming

grandma. i have said mothers of dying children, teenager as beused and grown men and women who have suffered the indig rites-- indignities of injustice without having broken down in teaser, or exploding in outrage. i thought i had become the epitome of self-control. then wham, my first grand child jordan was born on january 30th, 20011. i was jolted, blind sided by a wallop of love, more loving, more intense than anything i could remember or had ever imagined. this was. >> big. >> rose: big for you. >> but it's not unusual. it is not-- i've discovered. >> rose: i think you discovered from other grandmothers. >> most of the grandmothers i interviewed. >> rose: say the same thing. >> yeah. >> rose: you found it, yes, yes. >> i interviewed a grand mother in the bronx who lives in a fantastic house, that the city blt for grandmothers who are raising their grand children.

and she had already taken care of this little girl's older sisters and she said i was not going to take another child. not in a million years. then she is in the room when the baby is born. she's actually in the room and the doctor puts the baby in her armsment and she describes what i am telling you. she said i looked down. i held that baby and that was it she said i was hooked like a fish. >> rose: is there an idea today in a culture that old is cool? >> a little bit. >> rose: i certainly hope so. >> i certainly hope so. i'm doing all i can to promoted that-- promote that. no i actually think it's true. and the baby boomers, we're such a huge, gigantic bulge. and we changed everything as we have swept through. >> rose: you're not the same age. >> a little older but we relate to them. and everything that they have touched, they've changed. >> rose: right. >> an they've made younger. and of course we are actually healthier, truly health yer. and younger. >> rose: and live longer. >> and live longer. >> rose: that's the great thing. because we live longer you will

be able to experience the grand baby growing up. >> exactly. >> rose: and have a positive influence, goes long beyond just. >> the other thing i found is that they actually really truly need us. they need-- . >> rose: what do they need. >> grandparents. you know, in all of time from going back to the cavemen, you know, grandmothers were raising children. it is in our species. it's the way it was meant to be. it's the natural course of things. and then along came the industrial revolution and we got the nuclear families and all of that. and what is supposed to be, got separated. so when a grandmother has this feeling, i think it's because it's what is meant to be. and the children need us because we in history and going back, we nurtured them. we made sure they survived. that's why grandmothers in all other-- most other animals, they die when they can no longer reproduce. so why are grandmothers here.

to take care of the grand children. >> rose: hillary clinton you say is sort of the poster mother of grandparents. >> she is. >> she used to tell me when i would interview, i once said do you think you would rather have a grand child than be president. >> what did he say. >> her husband said that's a hard choice for her. but he said sometimes i do. she wants it so desperately. now their story on the campaign trail that she is gloating over her granddaughter. >> i saw her do an interview, i think yesterday. and honestly, she sounded just like me. i said my goodness, she could have written this book. really. she is going to what i am going through. and partly i think working women maybe going through what i am going through more intensely. cuz we prpb. >> what impact. is the impact of this such a wonderful feeling i've discovered, you know, a new priority. you say it's now the fourth stage. >> of life. >> of life, yeah. well, it is. you mentioned that we're living longer. >> right.

>> we're going tow live 30 years longer after we retire, if we retire, charlie. >> you and i. >> we're meant to retire. >> yes. we're going to live another 30 years for the most part. and if you retire, there's a new phase of lifive. and we haven't had it before. when i say new i don't mean for me, i mean for everybody. and i'm suggesting in the book that the best way to spend it is to help your children raise the grand children. >> yeah. >> so let me get this. >> so in addition to telling stories on 70 minsz, you'll be telling stories to your grand children, so you are a story teller wherever you turn. >> i think that's wonderful. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> i love coming. >> rose: i want to you come back and we'll talk about the book more. but also talk about a remarkable career in journalism. you have been there as you said, you sort of were born at 30. at cbs. and in 1971 and 72. and then 25 years at "60 minutes." i know stories about you. >> don't till. >> rose: and we're going to

talk about that. >> we do want to talk about the story, a remarkable career. and no one, it's not hard for me to understand why it is you love it so much. and why you pursue it with such vigor it is because it is exciting work. >> well, you love it. you are at "60 minutes" now. >> i do. >> you get it. you get what fun it is to do what we do. and it has that serious element, that makes-- there's a little bit of idealism, at least we tell ourselves. >> rose: do you get up and say i want to tell that story, that's what it is. famously said four words g tell a story. >> pleasure. >> rose: the book is called coming grand mavment the author lesley stahl. her name is way above the title. but the subtitle is the joy and the science of grandparents. so if every grandparent out there would buy this book, they will be rewarded. >> thank you. >> rose: thank you for joining us. we'll see you next time.

>> for more about this program and earlier episodes visit us online at pbs.org and charlie rose.com.

>> fundin >> funding for charlie rose is provided by the following: and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. 7

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steves: riding this gondola, you soar, landing in the sleepy, unpromoted village of gimmelwald. in 30 years of researching guidebooks, i've found hidden gems like this in every country. gimmelwald would have been developed to the hilt, like neighboring towns, but the village had its real estate declared an avalanche zone, so no one could get new building permits. the result? a real mountain community -- families, farms, and traditional ways. choosing places like gimmelwald and then meeting the people, you become part of the party rather than just part of the economy. this is a realistic goal for any good traveler. eins, zwei, drei. man: [ chuckles ] steves: take a moment to appreciate the alpine cheese. so, older is better?

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this is "nightly business report" with tyler mathisen and sue herera. something's missing. the fewest number of americans in four decades filed for unemployment benefits. so why is there so much anxiety among workers? landmark lawsuit. microsoft sets the stage for another high-profile battle between the tech industry and washington. avoid the lines. what one company is doing to take the headache out of security check all that and more tonight on nightly bit report for thursday, april 14th. good evening and welcome. i'm sharon epperson in for sue herera. >> i'm bill rivers in for tyler mathisen. remember 1973? i do, i was in high school. the job market does too. a new report today from