>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with politics and talk to major garrett of cbs news. >> and it's a dilemma, charlie, built atop an existential crisis which is what is the republican party now, what are its foundational issues, what are its tactile approaches to winning on those issues, not just in the voting booth, but in a legislative context and winning back the presidency. all three of those things have been flowing through this conversation and unresolved for years and the donald trump phenomenon is a manifestation of that. >> rose: we continue with karen elliott house, she talks about saudi arabia as the president plans to go there next week. >> i think they are standing up on their own more because in part they've lost favorite in us and i think that's not a bad thing that the country should

become more efficient and proficient at looking after its own interests, and we have to learn that if we don't want to support them, we can't try to control what they do. >> rose: we close this evening with the president of ecuador rafael correa who stopped by to show us a video of a film made by peter greenberg, reflecting the richness and cultural heritage of his country. >> so, mr. president, what are we going to see today? >> i'm going to show you some plans of mine. >> okay, let's go. this massive marine reserve offers visitors a thrilling underwater spectacle. the marine life here is so familiar with humans they will often swim alongside their visitors. >> rose: major garrett, karen elliott house and rafael correa, when we continue.

>> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by the following: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: every presidential candidate was in new york this week and the democrats faced off for a fiery final debate in the brooklyn navy yard, just days before nocial's crucial tuesday primaries. for more we turn to major garrett, chief white house correspondent for cbs news, but has also been covering the republican pry mares and i am pleased to have him here and to talk about where we are. new york is crucial? >> new york is important. it's going to be a place for donald trump to reset. he's going to win new york

handily. he'll get the 14 delegates, statewide vote, and will win most of the congressional districts, 27 in new york, 3 delegates each, and if he gets a majority in each of those he'll get 95 delegates, regain the momentum lost to ted cruz in the last few weeks. cruz or kasich might pick off a few delegates but this will be a solid night for donald trump and he will reframe it in his campaign and frame it in a reset and say he is back on track to winning the nomination outright. >> rose: can he get 1237 before the convention opens? >> he can if he wins california heavily on june 7th, and in between the month of may will be crucial for donald trump. i'm a little curious as to why they spent so much time in new york because new york is very solidly in his column, and he'll do well on april 26. but in may, indiana, nebraska, other places that don't lay as well for trump, oregon,

washington, other places he could be, i think, spending better time getting ahead of the curve there against ted cruz and hasn't been, may will be a crucial month for donald trump in determining whether or not he wins it outright before the convention. >> rose: he's complaining about the party rules. >> right, which is interesting on a couple of levels. one thing donald trump told the country over and over again is he understands rules, he's incredibly shrewd about the rules,. >> rose: good negotiate. he's a wonderful negotiate and cuts great deals and figures this stuff out and that's watt america needs as a president, and now he's baffled by rules that are incomprehensible. they're not incomprehensible or baffling or straightforward, he's just not getting the upper hand. >> rose: is he setting the stage to do something else? >> he's setting the stage in case he doesn't win it outright to have a grievance narrative baked into the psychological cake on the floor of the republican convention. in that respect, he is being

strategic in his thinking and taking the hit initially that he is a kind of a whiner and a sore loser. >> rose: ted cruz is not doing well in new york? >> no, and he never was going to. >> rose: never expected to. ight. >> rose: how is his national effort going? >> his national effort is going as he imagined it would be, except not against who he imagined it would be successful against. >> rose: he thought jeb bush, maybe? >> jeb bush or marco rubio or some establishment republican who was going to face a well-organized and well-funded conservative. so what ted cruz always imagined was the need to pick up delegates, to have operations at the state level across the country. so he built that, starting more than a year ago, and he if not memorized all the state party arcane rules, learned them well and applied the lessons learned to get delegates and he is reaping the benefits of that. >> rose: but he had the benefit that the party is

looking for somebody to oppose donald trump. >> not initially but getting closer to landing on him now. >> rose: they believe kasich can't put it together but believe cruz can? >> they believe kasich would have put more together by now, but i wouldn't cruel kasich out. i think he'll stay. if the polling data continues to show he's the only republican to beat hillary, then the scrutiny will come to kasich. he's the least scrutinized and reece well known among reps. if he gets attacked, his poll numbers may diminished yet because he hasn't been tested the way cruz and trump. >> rose: if trump had been scrutinized earlier, would it have made a difference? >> i think so. there are a good number of republicans who told themselves they blew it, that they allowed themselves to be talked into or maybe they were just so fearful

and timid to begin with to say, well, this is kind of a summer phenomenon, he's a blockbuster, he's not serious, et cetera, et cetera. i do believe that one of the central in trump brought to this campaign, under appreciated until now, is that he knew how serious he was and he calculated those against him. >> rose: i totally agree with you. >> would not understand how serious he was -- >> rose: and if you look at what he did in 2012, '13, '14, '15, he was thinking about this planning, reaching out, trying to get some read on the country, trying to find out what the experience had been of the candidates reading every possible conversation he could have. >> and going to the trademark office and trademarking "make america great again" more than 18 months before he announced. >> rose: he was thinking about it. >> absolutely. >> rose: so when going into this convention, reps have a

dilemma. if donald trump doesn't get the nomination, he's going to be very angry and may run in some way. if he gets the nomination, reps are worried that will be a disaster for them. that's the choice the republican party faces, and some seem to be saying we would rather lose with someone else to save the party -- >> right. losing with ted cruz or imagining a loss with ted cruz is more comforting than a complete party meltdown with donald trump. >> rose: how do they know that's what it's going to be, simply polls having to do with women, unfave rbles and that? >> and institutional public donors who made it clear in private conversations if trump is the nominee, they may not participate or show up at the conventions, and big bund leers and donors in the republican party said we're either going to sit this out or maybe even send money hillary clinton's way if she is the nominee. so there is that restiveness

within sort of the financial matrix of the republican party. that may be just an empty threat but is something of great concern for reps and a dilemma built atop an existential crisis which is what is the republican party now, what are its foundational issues, what are its tactical approaches to winning on those issues, not just in the voting booth but in a legislative context and winning back the presidency. all three of those things have been flowing through this conversation and unresolved for years and the donald trump phenomenon is a manifestation of that. >> rose: i know some people who are republicans say this is our reality but you democrats are going to face the same thing several years down the road. you had the beginnings of the same kind of split in your party. >> that's potentially true. one of the things that's true in presidential politics, less true in congressional politics, is demographic advantages don't last forever because demographics of a country change

constantly and advantages you have now are not linear. you can't project them for the next 30 years. remember there wasn't so long ago we were talking about the republican lock on the electoral college for the presidency because in the '60s, '70s, '80s, reps won all the time and it snapped in two. >> rose: karl rove went to the white house saying we're going to build a permanent republican majority. >> exactly, and it lasted until 2006. >> rose: i'm going to turn to the democrats in just a moment. paul ryan, you take him at his word? >> i take him at his word, but i also understand, looking at the history of this, knowing his own sense of ambition, that the most likely route for him to become a savior type white knight at a convention at this point is to say i have no interest in it and i'm not going to take it under any circumstance. you have to deny it to get it. i'm not suggesting he's being insincere, but he also knows if there's going to be an uprising

on the floor of a contested convention, it has to be something aapproximating a genuine uprising, one he has to suggest over and over publicly he's neither in favor of nor behind the scenes manipulating. but paul ryan will be part of this conversation whether he wants to or not. >> rose: serious money says it would either be donald trump or ted cruz. >> you have to look at it that way because the primary poll seaseprocessand delegate acquiss put those two forward. >> rose: the issue for the republican will be immigration, foreign policy, the obama record and if, in fact, it is hillary clinton, it will be trust. what else? >> trust, credibility and muscularity. cruz drafted behind the idea of america lacking a sense of muscular purpose and definition

about its role in the world. on foreign policy and these other issues, that's where reps will sort of land -- republicans will land. cruz has taken that to absurdity saying america has to win and i'm going to define what victory looks like first and foremost and then pursue it, and ted cruz will either draft behind that or create something that sound similar to that if he's the nominee. but republicans will rally around the idea that we have been a diffidant loser type country, there is a feeling that when donald trump is talking about general mcarthur or patent he's trying to revive an era that's resonant. >> rose: needing a leader.

someone with purpose, vision and director. a lot of trump supporters are not hung up on specifics. they're not even asking for specifics. what they care about is a different and more profoundly aggressive direction for the country. >> rose: beyond that -- and they're willing to follow it. >> rose: on the morning show i've seen you, report after report, having the opportunity to talk to trump after he leaves or before he goes into an event. he's a little bit short. but give us a sense of having covered this man and watched his rise, what is it about him that perhaps the public wouldn't know? >> that he does have and has tried to, i think, create for himself a sense of what this job is like. when i first started covering donald trump, i thought, maybe he really hasn't thought about the presidency and its actual rigors. i think he has. i still think he's a little bit

more casual about that than perhaps he ought to be, thinking things are a bit easier than they actually are. and the other thing i would say, dealing with him and asking him tough questions, is he doesn't like to reveal a lot, and when forced to either confront things that are inconsistent about what he said or are incomplete about things he said, he'll walk away. that's an option on the campaign trail. it is not an option in the oval office. >> rose: do you think he has and knows his values? >> yes, i think he has and knows his values, but i would also suggest his values are perhaps not as broadly defined. i think he has very singular and central values. a lot of other things are left to the side. but what he knows and believes, i think he knows and believes to his core. that's not as broad as it is for most people in political life

because he's not been a political actor. i would say as a business person, as someone who develops a brand and markets in that realm, i think all his ideas and formulated opinions are rock solid. the rest of it is real. the tax code, the exact size of the wall, other things, i think that blends out into a lot of things that are, as he said, subject to negotiation and flexibility. >> rose: i'm surprised at how much he pays attention to social media and television. >> yeah. he is someone who is animalistic in his hunger for data about himself, appraisals of him, criticism of him, or just general awarens of him. he has a kind of boundless energy where that comes, where that is concerned. the marketing of himself and his relative position, and there are all sorts of stories about long before he was a presidential

candidate about checking in with the new york tabloids, about what they thought of the latest woman on his arm. >> rose: they told me he would send her compliments all the time mainly just building a relationship. >> right and i think this goes back to the question of values. so donald trump i think separates the world in very distinct ways. if he believes you are a person of strength and purpose, he will deal with you, even if you disagree with him. he will not find that about you disagreeable. if he believes you are strong and a person of conviction and you know what you're about. if you don't know what you're about and you're kind of a wishy-washy person, he will just push you to the side and move ahead. he looks for people like megyn and tries to develop a relationship that's to their advantage. >> rose: he's a counter puncher, he waits and if you attack him, he attacks back. it's more important for the democrats at the primary than the republican. >> absolutely, it is a bell

weather for hillary clinton and something that bernie sanders can demonstrate something beyond what democrats think he's capable of and if he does that he continues to keep himself in this conversation against all odds. >> rose: can he win even if he doesn't win? >> he can sort of win if he doesn't win. and politics i believe a win is a win. in almost all cases. but if he loses by three points, not ten, that's pretty close. >> rose: he's benefited from heavy turnout, are they expecting a heavy turnout? >> they are. in new york, the registration laws are very restrictive. you have prepared yourself to be a bernie sanders supporter. if you were change ago party back in october and if you were doing something to have registered in a new way you would have had to have done it several days ago, 25 days ago,

in some cases. so you may have a lot of new bernie sanders supporters who go to the polls to vote and they say you can't. these are restrictive rules on registration, in the pip of many in america. >> rose: in the last poll, clinton was up by 10. >> if she wins by 10 or more, it's a thrashing, good and solid and an important vindication. >> rose: will do some damage to bernie sanders. >> it will blunt his perceived momentum. >> rose: isn't it amazing drawing 27,000 people in brooklyn for a rally? >> yes, absolutely. the sanders phenomenon is real and long-lasting, and i think of enormous importance to this country. whatever happens in this democratic race, bernie sanders spent years and years and years

in congress saying exactly the same things he's saying now but to zero audience. zero audience in the public and zero audience in congress. nobody paid attention to him. he was reviewed as such a fringe type democrat and he's not a fringe type anything anymore or an agenda and that's important for this country. >> rose: will the democratic party come out of this convention and election year a more left party than it went into this election? >> i would say slightly more left if bernie sanders, by some alchemy, politically an and otherwise -- >> rose: but she's moved more left whether crime or trade or other issues. >> yes, so the party shifted in that direction in orientation and alignment on certain issues. i would not say that barack obama as president has left the

democratic party in a position of moderateness. he hasn't. but bernie sanders does tug it in directionally different ways which i think is also part of this moment i'm talking about. how he got there and how this conversation has moved hillary clinton in directions she did not anticipate. >> rose: we talked about republican, talked about immigration and foreign policy and other things. what will the democrats talk about? >> the democrats will talk about a country that weathered a storm economically that they will blame almost entirely on reps and reremind the country where we were, what we've achieved and then say, you know what? the unfinished business, it's time for that unfinished business. from their perspective, it's time for a living wage. it's time for social security. it's time to push beyond obamacare, make it more effective, perhaps more ambitious and deal with college

debt. so they will talk about unfinished business on their terms and they will say this whole other republican agenda is not only economically disadvantaging to most americans, it's dangerous, and that's what they will say. >> rose: they say so far about the democrats, it's good to be identified with barack obama in the primaries. >> generally speaking, yeah. the hiccups bernie sanders have encountered have often been about him questioning whether or not president obama should have won again in 2012 and being less than enthusiastic about it. >> rose: the interesting thing, will hillary clinton or bernie sanders if either one are third obama term because theas only time that worked is when george h.w. bush succeeded ronald reagan.

>> yes, that's not historically what happens. a party gets two terms and then somebody gets a chance, extending it a third is unusual. >> rose: al gore failed to extend the two terms. >> right, the extension doesn't often occur. for it to occur, whether you say it or not, you have to run on what has happened the eight years previous, you can't help but do it. that's why i say here we are, unfinished business, but we are proud and absolutely certain about the business that's been taken care of the last eight years. we're simply going to extend it. you cannot run without embracing the agenda of eight years past, you just can't. and al gore suffered as a result of that. >> rose: indeed. that was a special case, too, because of the scandal at the time. karl rove, for example, said to me elections are a referendum on the future, not the past. >> sure, that's always true, but to give people a sense of what the future looks like, you have

to frame their experience in the past. you can't have that conversation if you're the inparty. if you're the out party you can. the inparty has to explain the benefits of the recent past they were in charge of. that's why you can't get away for it if you're running for the third term. >> rose: if donald trump has to allay fears about what kind of president he will be if he gets the nomination, what will hillary clinton have to do if she gets the nomination. >> her central mission is to say you've known me for a long time, i can't reintroduce myself to you, but maybe i can shift some of the perceptions you have about me that you're so certain about, that i am a strong leader, that i have the country's best interest at heart and that my judgment and my ability to both come to a

conclusion and put it into action are sound and beneficial for you. she still has, if she is the nominee, to resolve the great unresolved question in our presidential history, we've never had a woman president, and even though if she is the nominee, if she becomes the nominee, that's still an unanswered question. so all of it has to be, with her, a kind of prism about her character, judgment, capability through a different lens, a woman. as much as we would like to say that is resolved, until it's resolved with a victory, it isn't. so all of that will flow through her in ways that are simply different than for every previous presidential nominee. >> rose: she seems to emphasize that less than at the beginning of the campaign. >> because she doesn't want to convey that you're electing a novelty. >> rose: or that this election is about gender.

>> right. you're not electing a novelty. you're electing the most qualified person to be president of the united states because of my range of experience and my sense of this moment and your future and how they come together. every successful presidential candidate does that at one level or another. that will be her great challenge. >> rose: major garrett, thank you for coming. >> charlie, thanks so much for having me. >> rose: back in a moment. stay with us. >> rose: we begin with a look at president obama's upcoming trip to saudi arabia. the president plans to meet with king salomon wednesday and attend summit thursday. expected to address i.s.i.s. and other security issues and relationships, the trip comes after the president raised new questions about the u.s.-saudi relationship and interview with jeffrey goldberg. joining me is karen elliott house, former publisher of "the wall street journal" and author

of "on saudi arabia: its people, past, religion, fault lines and future." she continues to write about the country, continues to visit the country and is one of the respected analysts who understands saudi arabia and knows the people of influence there. very pleased to have her back on the program. welcome. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: talk to me in the beginning about where is the relationship as the president arrives there. >> it's not in a very good place. i know both the saudis and the americans publicly like to say we have a close, long relationship, but the distrust of saudi arabia now of the u.s., which has been building at least since we invaded iraq in 2003 against their strong advice, but it has now become so eroded, they simply do not trust the u.s. >> rose: and a series of other events that took place, too.

first of all the red line in syria. >> well, even before that, in their minds, the u.s. abandoned a long-term ally, president mubarak in egypt, and that, i think, really frightened them because they are in the long-term ally category. then there was the red line in syria where if assad crossed it, we would do something, and then we erased the red line. and then most recently and most importantly, in their minds, the nuclear deal with iran, which they were always skeptical of, like israel, but they were willing to accept that if we would understand and do something about what they regard as iran's meddlesome -- is a kind word -- behavior in the region, and they feel that we're simply not living up to that. so i'm sure that will be the

biggest part of the agenda. >> rose: and, so, they question whether the president -- this president with not that much time left in his term would stand behind them or stand for them if they were in a crisis? >> they simply don't trust the united states right now. i mean, the main thing that i got asked -- i spent a month there in january, and the main thing that people brought up, whether government people or academics or normal saudis was is the obama policy a an abberation or is this u.s. policy going forward? will hillary or trump be any different, were the two names they mentioned, and then they would, in essence, answer their own question by saying, they don't expect us to be any different, and one individual said to me the biggest issue

confronting saudi arabia is how do we construct a post-u.s. middle east, and i think that is where their mind is. >> rose: they certainly have made some overtures to russia and china. >> mm-hmm, yes. the -- while i was there in january, the chinese president visited, got an enormously warm reception. you know, they are improving their cooperation with china. the young defense minister and deputy crown prince mohamed bin salomon has vinceed with president putin of russia. they want us to know they have also organized a 34-nation islamic coalition. another way of trying to have

cooperation and protection in a world where they feel we are simply -- it's not just the nuclear deal. they feel we are equating or maybe even elevating iran above saudi arabia and that we certainly, as the president said in that atlantic interview, he told them, you've got to learn to share the middle east with iran. it is true, the geography forces them to share the middle east, but it is very much -- to have the president say that to a journalist and the whole world as opposed to privately to the saudis, to say you have to share, it's like a man who tells his wife you've got to learn to share me with the mistress, it's not exactly what the loyal partner wants to hear.

>> rose: but do you believe in america there is a changing nature or perception of saudi arabia and maybe there might be, you know, assuming the nuclear deal works and that somehow there is some modification, which is a big if, of iranian behavior, that there could be a warming of the relationship with iran? for example, just this week, there were discussions about conversations between iranians and boeing having to do with commerce. >> i think american companies will try to get back into iran. it's happening very slowly, but i'm not sure that will warm the saudis up. i mean, obviously, saudi arabia had good relations with iran, proper relations when the shah was around, and they had a relationship in the mid '90s,

the late king abdullah, and iran restored diplomatic relations that had been broken in the '80s. if the saudis feel that it is necessary for their survival to improve relations with iran, they will. >> rose: yeah. but right now, they simply feel surrounded, that the iranians have, thanks to the u.s. and their view, they are the dominant power in iraq, in syria, messing around in lebanon, seeking to mess around with the ho houthis in yemen, wh the saudis have gone to war against, and in bahrain. so saudi arabia feels very

surrounded, and i think they also worry that the u.s., more than just the president, that the american public may not be as supportive anymore of a relationship the kingdom of saudi arabia as it used to be. >> rose: see, that's the question i was raising, that there may not be supportive of other relationship with the kingdom and may see some possibilities for the development of a relationship with iran. let me come back to mohammed bin salman. 30 years old, you've met him. how did he achieve so much power so quickly? he's a deputy crown prince, his father is the king, but this is a young man running not only national security but also running the giant economic plan. >> the economy. >> rose: who is he, how did he get there, how smart is he, what do people think of him, why is he the one that's emerged?

>> because he seems to be his father's favorite son. his father has older sons, one of them is a governor, one of them is running the tourism industry, you know, one of them is a deputy minister of oil, very accomplished sons who are older, but this one seems to be a favorite of his father's. he is a graduate of king sad -- sing saud university. his father promoted him last april to be defense minister when his father became king -- his father became king in january but he gave up his defense ministry job and passed it to his son.

and then in april of last year, he removed the crown prince, put the deputy crown prince elevated to crown prince and named his son as the deputy crown prince. i think saudis see him as a very hard-working young man. ministers talk about being in meetings with him at 1:00, 2:00, 3:00 in the morning. when he met the bloomberg journalists, they mentioned they were with him until 4:00 a.m. he's only 30, and 70% of the population of saudi arabia is 30 or younger. so those young people like seeing someone of that age there. they like the fact that he's a workaholic, and they like the fact that he's informal. he meets people, as you saw in the bloomberg interview, with,

you know, without the formal dress. and it is different than the more regal aspect of -- and stayed aspect of previous rulers, and he's clearly focused on the economy, and young people hope that he can do -- execute the economic reform that the government is talking about because 30% of those young people are unemployed, and the government can no longer afford, with oil prices where they are, to give everyone a job. >> rose: so here the president gets to go to riyadh to meet with other gulf leaders. what can he accomplish? can he accomplish anything this late in h his term? >> i don't think he can accomplish much on this trip. i mean, at some level, going there and showing respect will

please the saudis while the visit occurs and, obviously, talking to g.c.c. defense ministers of whom this young mohamed bin salomon is the saudi defense minister and representative in those conversations has utility. we have been having military discussions with the g.c.c. intensively for the last three or four years and prior to that encouraged them to organize as a unit and given all the things iran is doing in the region, there is utility to that, but i don't think any big break throughs will come out of this visit. the trust won't be restored and we're already helping them in yemen, with which will continue. we're not going to do anymore in

syria, i don't believe -- this administration is not going to do anymore. hillary clinton might if she's elected. >> rose: what role has saudi arabia played in the battle against i.s.i.s.? >> they are not very concerned about i.s.i.s., which, you know, i find interesting because we, obviously, are, and the head of i.s.i.s., mr. baghdadi, has put a mark on the saudi heart, if you will. he's saying, we must overthrow this regime, we must liberate mecca and medina, the holy places, that the royal family is not really islamic and religious, so they are usurpers who must be removed. but the government feels that

mohammed bi bin nief is effectie at keeping them, picking them up, putting them in prison, trying to rehabilitate them. so they're not really concerned about i.s.i.s. they're concerned about assad, and we are concerned about i.s.i.s. and not about assad. so we don't have a common view of what the threat is in the middle east. there are people who obviously say the saudis are possibly responsible for i.s.i.s., that the conservative, rigid wa has u hawoo haswahabiversion of islams

these people and it's true baghdadi and co-heart cite wahabism as their role model. >> rose: people say what we don't appreciate is the power of clerics in saudi arabia and that the government is very careful to make sure that the relationship, the royal family by that, that that relationship is crucial to them? >> it is absolutely crucial and i think americans do not because most americans don't take religion seriously. they think if you go to church on sunday or synagogue, you know, on saturday that you've done -- you know, that's religion. for saudis, religious saudis and not all are, but for religious saudis, it is a -- it is something that governs everything you do all day long,

and thus the society is very conservative and it does listen to the clerics who are the arbiters of what is the proper islam, and the religious -- the al-saud family wants to say religious because their relate legitimacy is we are the protectors and promoters of the one true islam, and the one true islam with is wahabism, it is this conservative brand of islam. saudis like to say there is no such thing as wahabism, it's salifism,, it simply means being back to the basics, back to the

beginning of islam, and that's what we are promoting, but whatever you call it, it is a very conservative philosophy of islam. >> rose: and a political force. >> and a political force, because the only people who can organize anything in the country aside from the government are the religious. >> rose: as you know, "60 minutes" did a piece about the 28 pages missing from the 9/11 commission report and has never been declassified. there is a real effort and former senator graham from florida has said there is something in there and he would not be surprised if it shows some kind of support for those al quaida kids who came here and got on the planes and did what they did on 9/11, that there was some kind of a saudi support. they don't say government, but some kind of a saudi support for

them. you tell me how the saudis view that? because my understanding is they're in favor of the release of the 22 pages. >> prince bandar who as you know was the ambassador for many years here says release it. i don't understand personally why the government doesn't release it because, if the saudis are just bluffing, that's their problem, but both the bush administration and now the obama administration has refused to do so, and it seems to me we all deserve to know what's in the report. it is now nearly, what, 15, 16 years since 911. we should hear the whole truth and nothing but the truth. >> rose: but knowing as much as you do, is there any sense of what might be in there that would cause the classification? >> i assume that, from what

everyone says -- and i still don't understand why it hasn't been leaked. everything gets leaked and there are people who know it. >> rose: and there are people who have seen it. >> yeah, so why isn't anybody willing to talk about it? i mean, leaking is a good -- we journalists all approve of that. >> rose: yes. but it mystifies me. i mean, i assume from what people say that it has to do with -- and the saudi royal family is enormous, you know. there are 7,000 princes, so there is someone supporting every view in the world and acting in every way in the world at all times. it wouldn't necessarily mean the bulk of the royal family. it mystifies me what it was and why we don't know it, given that so many people have seen the report. >> rose: former senator bob graham, as i mentioned before, has told fox news last that the white house has informed him that he was a principal

interviewee in the report on "60 minutes" that the decision on whether to declassify the documents will be made in the next one to two months. so it may be coming to a decision. >> after the president returns from saudi arabia. >> rose: exactly, yes. he definitely shouldn't say whatever it is before, having waited this long, we can all wait a little longer, but he should face-to-face tell them we're going to put it out and then should come back and do it. >> rose: put it out. mm-hmm. >> rose: finally, schau the economy in saudi arabia? oil prices have gone through the -- >> floor, yeah. they have risen recently to, you know, in the $40 range. most people don't believe that they will be back beyond the $50 range for at least several years. so the economy -- the government

is trying to -- they have cut subsidies. they are planning to impose a value-add tax. there have never been taxes in saudi arabia because, unlike here, the government doesn't get its money by taxing us and then giving it back. they get their money from oil. but they are talking about a value-added tax. they have imposed sin taxes, reduced energy subsidies, trying to get their own people to have to pay a world market price by 2020, but these are all tinkering around the edges. if they really want to reform p, they're going to have to do things economically and probably socially. they're going to have to encourage more women to work. they spend money educating them. they ned to feet get the some --

they need to get some return on that investment. they need to really privatize the economy so that people are not dependent on government, and that really affects the whole social contract. 80% of people's household wealth comes from the government. >> rose: there is this, also, prince mohammed bin salomon has created a fund to invest in different kinds of entrepreneurial efforts. >> well, he says, according to what was said to the bloomberg people, that they will sell a portion of aramco and put this money in and they already have a private investment fund that has some investments in the

telephone company in sabic which is the big petrochemcal company but that, yes, they'd create this fund and then invest in companies all over the world and earn a return and have the money that oil used to provide would now come from investments. that's a transition they have to make and have to make successfully, obviously, to -- and they're not there yet, but it is at least a road map and he seems very determined and dedicated to economic reform. even if oil prices go up a little, the tendency has been in the past, the government promised reform and

privatizatioprivatization as sol gets low and then when the price gets up, they in essence drop it all and go back to passing out money. so it will be interesting to see if mohammed bin salomon, who does seem to understand the necessity for this, will stick with it and get the government to stick with it, even if oil prices recover somewhat over the next dozen years considerably. >> rose: we'll probably look at saudi arabia ten years from now and it will be a very different place, likely, and that's probably good for saudi arabia that it's becoming more independent and everybody knows where everybody stands. >> i don't know that everybody knows where everybody stands but i think they are standing up on their own more because in part they've lost faith in us and i think that's not a bad thing,

that the country should become more efficient and proficient at looking after its own interests, and we have to learn that, if we don't want to support them, we can't try to control what they do. i think the country will be different in ten years' time, if the monarchy continues to exist i think we shouldn't expect dramatic changes. when i started going intensively to work on my book in 2006, everybody said, in ten years' time, it's going to be -- and it is different now than it was in 2006, but incrementally so. women are doing more, and i think they will be doing even more ten years from now, but the religious authorities are likely to be dominant in saudi arabia,

as dominant as they are now with the royal family, or if something should happen to that family, even more dominant. >> rose: i close with this, a quote from your book on saudi arabia which was published in 2012 -- "observing saudi arabia is like watch ago gymnast dismount the balance beam in slow motion as the body twists frame by frame through the air we instinctively hold our breath to see if the hurtling gymnast will hold the landing acrushed to the mat, so it is with the al-saud monarchy of saudi arabia ." thank you, karen. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: we'll be right back. stay with us. >> rose: what are you doing here in new york today? >> well, thank you very much for the question, because the main objective of my visit to new york at this time is because we want to promote the tourist

potential of our country. we have a huge tourist potential and, in fact, we have made very important commentary called the royal tour with peter green greensburg. >> rose: yes, my friend and colleague. >> yes. >> rose: it's called "ecuador, the royal tour." if you're going to talk about it, we need to see it. this is you as host of the royal tour series, peter greenberg exploring wildlife in the amazon rain forest. here it is, take a look. >> soon we were flying towards the nappo river. the national park, ecuador's largest protected rain forest. within a few steps, with we had our first encounter. a group of tamran monkeys. they're everywhere. look at that.

you see that? next, it was time to go deep into the jungle. this 940-foot-long steel cable bridge is suspended from three large metal towers and, although it was a bit of a hike to get here, boy, was it worth it. >> this is the place where i come to get away from it all but, at the same time, to see it all. >> and you do see it all. of course. >> rose: beautiful country. very beautiful country. >> rose: i want to show a couple more excerpts from the royal tour. the first one shows you exploring a church in quita. >> yes. a standing church. >> rose: roll the tape. this is the compania church. i think it's kitas crown jewel. >> you know, mr. president, i walk in this building and look

around and all i see is gold. >> you have here, peter, 7 tons of gold. >> 7 tons? yes. this must have been quite a construction project. >> this is an impressive building, peter, but i'm going to show you something really special. come with me, please. >> beautiful. a grand view, considered the best preserved, least altered center in all of latin america. >> san francisco church, the the biggest monastery in the continent. >> pretty amazing. >> rose: beautiful. outstanding. it's a very beautiful church. >> rose: so your primary hope that peter greenberg produces these films, this one called ecuador the royal tour, will somehow show ecuador to the world and bring more tourism which would be a significant

part of your economy. >> of course. we expect to have tourism as the first source of revenue by 2025. now the first source of revenue is oil. but we expect to change that. >> rose: thank you so much, mr. president. >> we are waiting for you. >> rose: thank you for joining us. see you next time. for more about this program and earlier episodes, visit us online at pbs.org and charlierose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

>> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide.

>> announcer: the following kqed production was produced in high definition. ♪ >> must have soup. >> the pancake is to die for! [ laughter ] >> it was a gut bomb, but i liked it. in private moments about the food i had. >> i didn't like it. >> you didn't like it? oh, okay. >> dining here makes me feel rich. >> and what about dessert? pecan pie? sweet-potato pie?