. >> rose: welcome to the program. i'm john hellemann of bloomberg politics filling in for charlie rose who is out on assignment. we begin with the new york primary. with dan dennor, matthew dowd and mike feldman. >> is it figured. >> totally figured and it's been rigged since it started. i think what happened, what trump has done, actually is a good thing, which is he is basically, everybody is eating hot dogs but he basically opened up the factory door and showed people what it's like-- what's going into the hot dog. and even though they've been told this is all within the hot dog, when you see it. and i think the voters out there, different than the delegates because i think there are two separate messages going on. i think cruz is arguing to delegates, trump is still arguing to voters, it is an effective message. >> we conclude with the look at the film the meddler. melena ryzik is joined by susan sarandon and rose byrne and

director lorene scafaria. >> i didn't want it to be a traditional mother-daughter story. i wanted to stay with marny and let you see what your mom is doing when you are not calling her back. but really explore this character deeper and kind of change what a meddler means, see that a lot of it comes from loneliness, a lot of it comes from just caring too much and having a lot of love to give and not really knowing what to do with it. >> politics and "the meddler" when we continue. >> funding for carlie rose is provided by the following: and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information servicesworld captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose.

>> good evening. i'm john hellemann of bloomberg politics filling in for charlie rose who is on assignment. we begin tonight with a look at. polls show done ald trump continuing to hold a commanding lead over his republican rivals. hillary clinton also leads in her home state though by a smaller margin. joining me dan senor, a former advisor to mitt romney and paul ryan, matthew dowd, chief political ansys for abc news and mike feldman, democratic strategist and former chief of staff for vice president al gore. i'm pleetioned to have all of them here at this table. gentlemen, let me ask you this question. so we just set up the pred cat which is likely victories for the home state candidates. what could happen tomorrow that is within the realm of plaws ability that might surprise you, dan? >> well, trump has pretty consistently underperformed his polls. so if he-- if he just hit just shy of 50%, that would be a big story. i think it would give probably

kasich a newer lease on life. i think it's highly unlikely to happen wz mike? >> i think that's right. i think that is the most cons quengs thing that could happen. i think senator sanders could do better than expected. he could pick up more delegates than expected but i don't think that will fundamentally change the outcome or shake up the diemic of the race. every delegate matters in the republican party so i think that's right. >> matt. >> i think the most likely and probable thing is that it goes long into the night for the democrats. that it's not settled for a long time. i think the hikely hood is that 901 all of the them call the trump race and don't wait whether it is 49, 50, 51, or 52 but there is a possibility it goes long into the night and hillary pulls it out but not as wide as the polls say. >> so let's talk about republicans and then we'll talk about democrats and unpack bots of those a little bit. two weeks ago in wisconsin donald trump lost, inarguably the worse moment of his campaign

so far, dan. an there was a lot of discussion about whether that was a blue print for how to beat him in future states. there was a lot of talk about whether the campaign was kind of reeling, was losing steam. there has been a lot of that rhetoric. what has happened over the course of the last two weeks other than donald trump having the good fortune for coming to his home state, what has happened in the republican race? >> the first thing is i think trump has prosecuted effectively, unfortunately, a very disciplined campaign making the case about how the quote system is rigged. and i think that that has tremendous purchase with a substantial section of the electorate. and i'm struck by the degree to which he seems to be carrying that forward. the other thing which i think is more important is that ted cruz has not been able to capitalize on his win in wisconsin. so wisconsin was supposed to be this big inflection point for ted cruz. he runs a great campaign in wisconsin. going forward, what is the next state he is being to win? it's not going to be new york.

maybe indiana, maybe nebraska but as long as trump is staying as disciplined as he has been over the last couple of weekend s and as long as john kasich is still in the race, trump is probably going to keep winning these states. i just don't see cruz at all having any momentum that could have been spurned by-- spawned by wisconsin. >> the trump argument which is that this is a ricked system, that ted-- rigged system, that ted cruz has been picking the delegates in states where the delegates are averse or adverse to the will of the electorate or where there is no vote whatsoever, this is the argument as dan says, he has been making very vocally for the last few days. one way of looking at that is whining. that is what ted cruz says, he's whining. another is he is tapping into this populist same kind of energy he has been tapping into throughout the campaign. how does that sound to you as a message person. is what trump is arguing effective or does it sound like sour grapes. >> i think it's smart. i think it's effective. it's not only been effective

rhetorically but he's also insulating himself a little bit and preparing, forth fying himself a little bit receipt orically for what will ultimately come down to a delegate fight on the floor. if he is within a couple vote, 50 or 25 vote, this message will come back and come back in a big way. he is sending a message now to the various decision makers. this is not going to be a tech any kallity and my voters aren't going away if this comes down to a handful of delegates. >> if you think he has won 30, 35 plus states if he is 33 million votes ahead of the second place fin irer, ted cruz, it sets things up perfectly to say just look at this. i'm losing to the guy, on the second ballot, i'm going to lose to the guy who won 11 or 12 or 14 states when i won over 30 states? it's powerful. >> to me, the flawed messenger that he is and that we all know he is in the course of this, it has the benefit of being true. >> i was going to ask you, is the system rigged. >> yeah, it is totally rigged. and it's been rigged since it

started. i think what hatched, what trump has done, i think actually is a good thing, which is he is basically, everybody is eating hot dogs but he has basically opened up the factory door and showed people what it's like, what's going into the hot dog. >> it's not that pretty. >> even though they have been told it's all within the hot dog, when you see it, i think the voters out there, different than the delegates because i think there are two separate messages going on. cruz is arguing to delegates, trump is still arguing to voters, it is an effective message. when you look at the system as it is et is up, it is not a one person, one vote it is not a system designed for that. it is a system designed to empower elites both on the republican side and democratic side. both have a system that way that it is not as transparent. even though the rules, i constantly hear well, the rules were known, the rules were knownment you could know the rules and still have a rigged system. there are many things in our life that the rules are known but are still rigged. wall street is a perfect example. rules are known but it is a rigged system that certain people can benefit from. >> this is something brewing for a long time.

most of the focus is what happens in washington, right? congress is ineffective. nothing gets done. what do our elected officials doing. with this process to matt's point has done is lifted the vail on how we actually choose our candidates and brought that in in a way that wasn't known to america. >> frirs of all, trump has something like over 40% of the delegates and has been getting on average under 40% of the vote. if the system is rigged it has actually been rigged one could argue in his favor. if it was any more rigged-- i agree with you receipt orically it's effective but on the substance i'm a little more sceptical. is it any more rigged than the electoral colleged. >> the electoral college say rigged system, that was designed to be rigged because it was basically, instead of going to pure popular oat vote which is what most of the founding fathers wanted to do, they want to a system where they awarded more electoral college votes to smaller states to get their votes on board. they designed it that way. >> and also so one region couldn't dominate. >> yeah. that was basically to gather votes, a political decision. if you look at a couple of feks. you have to say it say rigged

system when basically some state can cancel a primary because they think that somebody is going to win and then go to a different system six months before election day. or you take a look at the votes, washington d.c., the d.c. primary for the republicans, 2,000 people voted. they chose 20 delegates. that's one delegate for every hundred people. michigan voted, 1.something three million vote, they chose 50 delegates, that is 20,000 people for one delegate. so the system is not-- is not transparent in a way that people thought it was. and done in a way that was actually consistent. it's not at all. >> i enjoy the moment when i come to the realization that matd u dawd is the cynicallist. that is what we come to. >> no he is anti-electoral college. >> it's all a bunch of rigged systems. >> i have to say, i love this process. and i love this year. for many different reasons. and one of the-- one of the reasons. >> your love is my nightmare. >> one of the reasons is that we have two institutions that are dinosaurs. bernie sanders on one side and

donald trump on the other are going to accelerate this country to a place that it needs to go which is an entirely different system not based in two legacy parties that most of the country feels doesn't represent them and isn't working. and i think that's a good thing. >> let me ask you this question. you are-- have publicly, you have worked for marco rubio for a little while. were you very close to paul ryan. you are out front, never trump, won't vote for him. under any circumstances ever. so the never trump movement, i want to go back to wisconsin. the never trump movement had a moment in wisconsin, right? understanding that trump has seized on a message that is powerful, has come back to his home state, luckily for him, where it fell on the calender. but what has happened to the never trump movement? because at this moment as we look down the calender and we look at how trump is will pooing in these various states, like is there a plan now in the never trump movement to try. >> whenever the question is what is the plan. there is never a-- it assumes that. >> the never trump movement seemed to have suddenly

momentum. >> the momentum seemed to shift in that direction. now what? >> a few things worked in wisconsin. one, i think trump stepped in a little bit. and said some things that were unartful on abortion. attacks on ted cruz's wife. so trump was part of the problem. i think the role of scott walker in wisconsin was very important. trump going after walker as a sim doll of the establishment, i get in trump's head why that model of going after a prominent republican in a state that has endorsed your opponent would work. but it doesn't work-- walker is not considered the establishment in wisconsin. he's been at war with the unions. he's been at war with these college kids who took over madison with these fights over pengs reform. so walker was effective. the conservative talk host, the conservative media community in wisconsin, talk show host, they were very effective. so i think you had something going on in wisconsin that is hard to replicate in other places. not impossible but hard. so maryland could conceivably, governor hogan is very popular. you could mobilize him.

down the road there may be places like in indiana and nebraska where you could mobilize something comparable to wises business. but it's hard. one thing have i been struck by with cruz's campaign is he put something together in wisconsin, part of it was his work, part of it was organic. you know, walker and these conservative establishment getting organized. he has not been able to put it together so far in other places. someone who is trying to stop trump, i'm worried about that. >> the thing that always stopped trump is not some external force of never trump. it has always been trump himself. trump is winning, has won in spite of himself and not having a real professional campaign, not because of it. d i think that came to bear in wisconsin. in the aftermath of wisconsin the question you first asked dan is i think there's been a couple of changes in trump world that have actually helped him head into a very good state for him, new york. and where the nemp trump movement was not going to be all that effective anyway. is one he has become a more disciplined candidate, right. he went offer the radar for a long period of time whether intentionally or his tail was between his legs, whatever the

reason. it actually turned out to be a very good move. now he brought in some folks that looked like it is beginning to professionalize his organization that weren't there before. all of those things and the calender it sets up, all of them are a benefit which makes it very hard. and i think one of ted cruz's problems, i think in the course of this is the more voters see ted cruz and the more he's exposed isn't a good thing for ted cruz in the course of this. that's why he wins in small states with few voters and few people and he doesn't win in large scale voters. >> one thing, kasich staying in is also helping trump immensely. if you look at the other potential inflection points going forward in this race, maryland, indiana, certainly california. i mean california is winner take all by congressional district. if kasich and cruz splitting the anti-trump vote he could be winning these districts with 35, 40% of the vote. so kasich can obviously make his case for why he's staying in. >> you can make the argument that ted cruz staying it is helping trump. >> of course. >> i think trump has a better shot, i think krz has a better shot of accumulating more delegates and get closer to

trump than kasich. >> so here's the question, mike. >> john. >> trump's running, has a very strong now populist message on the question of a rigged system. he's professionalized his campaign. he is likely to win new york, possibly win all the delegates in new york. he's got the calender ahead with a lot of states favorable to him, not all but many. can donald trump be stopped now? >> very hard, very hard. i think the threshhold, we talk about the number of 1237 but i think the threshhold is lower, given the fact he is effectively prosecuting this argue about the rigged system and given the fact there is a coshent of momentum delegates. if he gets to 1100 or 1150, it looks like he's cruising towards the nomination. those uncommitted delegates from here, from there, a deal is cut, he will get the number he needs on the first ballot. i think it's very hard to stop him. i think it will be even harder by tomorrow night. >> i think the number for trump, i think, we were talking about this before. i think the number on june 8th he needs to hit is 1150. that gives him, 87 more delegates he needs to pick up

between june 8th and the convention. i think that is the number. if he goes in with 1147 delegates or 1152 and he's won 33 states, he has 4 million more votes, 300 more delegate, what do you think at the convention. >> you don't think trump can be stopped. >> i think he can the only thing that can stop trump as we always said is trump. i wouldn't be surprised if in the aftermath of new york, because he who he is, he starts making mistakes again because he gets bravado. maybe he is better off when he loses because he performs better. i wouldn't be surprised if he continues to make mistakes but if he continues to operate this way, it will be hard to stop him. >> he is et going harder to stop before the convention. at the convention if it goes to a second or third ballot, i think there is a play if the convention opens up. but i don't think it necessarily means it goes right to cruz. i think that will be a tough case. >> let me wrap up republicans real quick. paul ryan is for real, right. not going to be a white knight. >> who is the white knight. >> i think the first set of white knights we should consider are people who have actually run

the cycle. scott walker, marco rubio, john mentioned i worked for rubeo, this is not what rubio is planning to do i'm just saying. i think just about any of the republicans who ran, and particularly those who accumulated real delegates would be competitive. i think walker did so well in wisconsin, he had such a good second act in the election gif enthe first act was so bad, if it is a lockdown, dead lock convention i i think a guy like walker could be compelling. >> you have not mentioned the actual guy still in the race, john casek. john kasich, is there any scenario in which you see john casek as the republican nominee. >> it's not likely but there is a scen scen ar yovment john kasich at some point has to start winning delegates. >> there is a delegate thing. >> i needs to win some in new york and some in maryland it would be nice if he won in other state, not ohio in the course of this. the interesting thing will go to is when we go to a second ballot and a third ballot. does john kasich start picking up a larger percentage of those

ones that start moving then ted uz cruz. if that starts happening. if he gets a hundred delegates and ted cruz gets 60, then you start seeing that happen, then i think that's john kasich scenario. i think that is what they think their only scenario. >> i want to move to democrats and start with you, mike, i ask a similar question to the one i started the republican conversation with. bernie sanders won huge in wisconsin, coming to new york, hillary clinton how many state, the clinton said they thought this would be a competitive primary, a lot of money would be spent here as there was. bernie sanders would get big crowds as he has goten. yet the race at least on the basis of public polling has not tightened as much as certainly the sanders campaign thought and the clinton campaign feared. so what has happened here in the last two weeks in this new york democratic primary? >> i think the clinton campaign has run a met odd kal statewide election here. they prepared for it early on and are executing on it. she has some experience running in new york state. she's got the right team of people around her. they know how to run a race here. if you look at her pattern until

now, she is met oddically going after every strand of the democratic nominating electorate that bernie sanders has failed to capitalize on. and he just can't win a state-wide race if you want to look at it that way, in new york city with 28,000 person crowds of very fervent young supporter, can't do it. >> it helps her that it's a close primary. he can't have an expanded electorate. >> only democrats. >> no independents, they can't vote in this. another part of the rigged system. that we have seen on both sides. >> conspiracy ther rests. >> done all j trump. >> conspiracy means it is hidden. it is right there out in the open. i think that that is the case with bernie sanders. but you know bernie sanders to me is, if donald trump wasn't existing in this, bernie sanders would be the story of 2016. it's an amazing story the fact that where he has come from, who he is and how he has risen in the course of this, i think also fundamentally, and i think we've seen this, it exposes the vulnerability of hillary clinton.

there is a desire, amongst a lot of people of somebody other than hillary clinton but they think that's the only chance and only shot and the only thing they have the interesting thing, if you look at the polling numbers for hillary clinton over the course of the last 30 days as she's methodically moving, her unfavourables continue to rise across the country, they are now in 56th territory, not far behind done alt trump of 63, or 64, not far behind and the race naltly, even though a national number at this point doesn't matter any more, but the race nationally between bernie sanders and hillary clinton while she is closing the nomination is close. now within single digits between the two of them. so i think she pulls it out. she wins the state likely. i still think there is an outside shot that bernie sanders, something happens tomorrow night. but i think she is pulls it out. but she ends this process incredibly vulnerable. >> to just about any candidate on the republican side, the two most likely to win the nomination. >> donald trurp and ted cruz. >> the only ones higher

unfavourables. >> it is maddening that the end of this process with hillary so vulnerable we are left with candidates, any one of the others could have biteen her. >> let me ask you about lex ability of republicans but back to the rigged system. the democratic system is a rigged system and openly rigged system. superdelegates are as much of a rigging device as you can imagine, to basically say we are going to create a back stop so that if the actual voters do something not sensible in the view of the establishment, we have a counterweight so the establishment can step in and select a different nominee. in this case it looks like hillary clinton will be ahead in pledged delegates and popular vote and superdelegates who are largely for her will be able to stay with her. is there an argument the sanders campaign can make, given that either one of them will need superdelegates, neither one will get to a majority by june 7th on just pledged delegates, is there an argument the sanders campaign can make to those superdelegates that could be per vais-- persuasive to bring some or enough of them over to his side? >> maybe a handful but i doubt it. in the end, you have talked about the phenomenon at the end of one of these races when you

go toorsd the convention and somebody has a head of steam it is to consolidate support around that person, not suddenly break away support, especially among the superdelegate class. and by the way i think both dan and matt would agree they wish they had superdelegate this particular cycle. >> i don't. >> i am a total independent. >> right. >> in the ind i don't think that's likely to happen. >> who say stronger general election cap candidate, bernie sanders or hillary clinton. >> i think bernie sander is stronger for one reason. if you were going to bet on something, bet on authenticity. and that's one of the reasons hillary clinton is continues to be vulnerable is there is a huge swath of voters that don't think she's authentic, that don't trust who she is. you get the argue he is a democratic socialist and all of that. i think people sort of weigh all that out. and it's not based on policies or issues. it's going to be based on the feel of the person. i think the feel of the person for bernie sanders, he is the only one out there other than donald trump that can generate enthusiasm, generate a crowd, generate movement in that.

i guess they will spend all kinds of money and tar him and do all that. in the end i think bernie sanders is a better general election candidate. the democrats aren't going to nominate the best general election candidate. they are each not going to nominate the best general election candidate. >> there is no doubt she is an established political brand and probably the most vir you lent anti-establishment political cycle that i can remember. having said that, as soon as we get past this process it becomes a choice. the choice, the choice election and at this point the most likely republican nominee versus hillary clinton, if you actually look at this state by state among the strands of the general electorate, she holds up pretty well. >> if bernie sanders does not shock us tomorrow and wins the new york primary, what is the next teuntd for him to do something that could be a game changer? >> look, i think his strategy and i think new york is included in this, is to continue to amass delegates, to continue to energy identifies his base of support and roll that into the convention. i think probably you put truth

certificateup in-- and bernie sanders they would say it's highly unlikely he could get the nomination thought right. can he have an impact at the convention or moving forward, can his support and the energy of his supporters help the democratic nominee ultimately in the fall, you bet. >> i think tomorrow night bernie sanders last chance for a political earthquake. i think he has a chance to do better in states, but they will be like tremors or aftershocks. he has to have an earthquake tomorrow. it is the only possibility he has. in order to do this, he has to finish ahead in pledged delegates in order to make the argument that the superdelegates should go for him in the course of this. so if he doesn't win tomorrow, i don't think there's really any opportunity for him left. >> so there's-- the reality is that no matter what, if you wered nominee you want to have a unified, ecstatic party behind you when you come you out of your convention into the fall. it is a divided country, it is going to be close on most metrics. hillary clinton wants to have

unity. and the strange thing about these very long contested nomination fight is that the loser has all the power at that moment. because the loser is the one who can either encourage their supporters to shift to the nominee or not. in 2008 hillary clinton grudgingly slowly but event-- eventually by the time they got to denver she was behind barack obama, all of those women, mostly women who said they would never support barack obama eventually ended up voting for obama. does bernie sanders have it in him as somebody whos is not a member of the democratic partied, never loyal to the democratic party, does he have it in him to take all those millenials, those 28,000 people in prospect park and eventually hand them over to hillary clinton and say you must believe in her, go vote for her. >> here is what i think. i think if you look at the two parties, i think the democrats have a lot better changes of union fying their party than the republicans do of union fying theirs. if you look at how people, hillary voters perceive bernie and bernie voters perceive

hillary, this he are both very positive one wants bernie and one hillary but the underlying numbers, they don't hate each other in the democratic primary. so i think it's very easy to union fie. i think it's very hard to transfer enthusiasm. so i think hillary's problem is not union fying the part and i think that will happen. i think bernie saners will give a great speech, do all that, and say she is aes our person. rnie sanders, i thinkcause ofear hillary's problem is not that they would vote for donald trump or ted cruz but that they would say i'm not going to vote. >> if the nominee is dorch ald trump or ted cruz on our side, isn't that all the other, the democrats need for enthusiasm. >> that is like pressing a button. >> right. >> i-- as we know, i don't even think they need enthusiasm at that point to beat donald trump or ted cruz. >> unit, ultimately. >> yes. >> enthusiasm. >> yes. >> especially if again you go back to the choice, almost under any scenario, there is going to be a lot of energy behind the choice in the election. >> right, three of my favorite

new yorkers or at least sued owe new yorkers all the people, people who hang out here a lot or live here a lot, dan senor. >> i'm voting tomorrow. >> michael feldman and matthew dowd, you guys are all great. thanks for doing this. and we'll be back in a minute. >> good evening, i'm melena ryzik of "the new york timeses" sitting in for charlie rose on assignment. in the meddler, marnie an aging widow from new york follows her daughter lori to los angeles. there she begins interfering in every aspect of lori's life without realizing it is programs her own life that needs fuksing. writer/director lorene scafaria sophomore effort explore this complex relationship between mother and daughter. "vanity fair" calls the film subtle, inspired and metic lusly observed. here slt trailer for "the meddler." >> lori, lori.

lore, are you not bring in the mail today? >> mom, you have to ring the door bell. >> but i've got the key. >> how do you feel since your there are a lot of hours in the day. and so sometimes i call lori. >> brought you bagels. >> you should have called. >> i did. >> but i didn't answer. >> you condition just leave someone with bon glie orchid. >> you left let it die too. >> i think we should get you a hobby. >> maybe you could be my hobby. >> i have to go to new york for a few weeks. >> new york. >> i leave tomorrow. >> tomorrow. >> if i go with you, i could be like your assistant. >> no. >> marnie, what are you doing here. >> you said you needed a babysitter. >> i brought bagsels. >> mom, don't talk to my friends. >> what you have to do is have him tip you upside down. that is what joe and i did to conceive lori. >> call me and let me know you got in safe and remind me to tell you what your therapist said. >> do you maybe need a ride. >> i would kill my daughter if she died on a motorcycle. >> this isn't a motorcycle t is

a harley-davidson. >> that makes you a libra, scales, justice, you should be a lawyer. >> maybe. >> and not married, that's so funny. my daughter is not married either. >> i know i'm overstepping my boundaries. >> what if i gave you the money. >> would lori be upset? >> why, she's not getting married. >> you got kids. >> beautiful girls, the one that doesn't like me lives over in palm springs. >> it's not my business but you have to call her. >> can we take a selfie. >> who are you sending a selfie too? >> who are you texting? >> you just texted someone and you can't be here for it. >> i still need a ride to the airport. >> joining me are the stars of the film susan sarandon and rose byrne and the writer and director lorene scafaria. i'm pleased to have all you will of you at this table. welcome. >> thank you, thanks for having us. >> thank you for joining me.

now lorene, this is your second film and it is a personal story for you. it is based a little bit on your own mother, ask that right? >> very much on my own mother. >> was it a film you always wanted to make or a project that you came to in the middle of other idea sms. >> no, i started writing it in 2010 about a month after my mother moved from new jersey to los angeles after my father passed away. and she got an iphone immediately and started calling a lot. and a few voice mails later i started writing the opening scene. i wasn't sure how personal it was going to be, ultimately. ultimately it's very personal, got even more personal as i went. and yeah, so it's very much based on my mom, the character is very much baisessed on my mother. and the setup is mostly true. but we deef yaited from there. >> so it was a little bit of an outlet for you as you were dealing with this own change in your relationship with your mom. >> yeah, yeah t was very therapeutic. i think both of us, we did have a lot of great conversations about grief and what we were

both going through. because ultimately that was what the film was about both of us grieving really differently and trying to, you know, maintain our very close relationship while being a little closer than usual. >> did you think always that your mom, the mother character would be the center of the film or did you think, you know, there is a character that rose plays in the film that is a screen writer. did you think maybe i will make the story about her. >> no, i was adamant about not even having it about a two-hander, really. i didn't want it to be a traditional mother-daughter story. i wanted to stay with marnie and really see, you know, what your mom is doing when you are not calling her back. but also really explore it, this character deeper and kind of change what a meddler means. see that a lot of it comes from loneliness, a lot of it comes from just caring too much and having a lot of love to give and not really knowing what to do with it. so at no point did i want to do that.

certainly people encouraged me to do so in order to get the film made. but no, i only wanted to tell marnie's story, really. >> and you right away thought of susan as a person to play the part, right? >> i did. in my wildest dreams. i mean i had always pictured her, once i was done picturing my mother i was picturing susan. and so yeah, i just-- i, you know, she's got this quality to her. i mean you're so funny. are you so funny. but but she is so warm and mat earn and you know, as a humanitarian, just the most giving and generous person. and i just thought, i mean, this is sort of what my mother dreams of being, the kind of person who is actually saving lives, you know. and so yes, so susan is kind of the supermarnie in a way. >> susan, when you got the script, did you know that you were walking into a situation that was so personal, that was so based on real life. >> yeah, because i got a letter. and i really laughed out loud and i was moved also.

and then when i met lorene, you know, her passion and her story and i really liked her. and then i got the little real of her mom doing the opening of the film, five minutes of the opening of the film and that just cinched it. when i saw that, i said we have to find a way to get this done. and of course everything, when you are working for no money and are you working very fast, you have to surround your self with people that really are in the same tone. the players that are going to not be commenting on it, somebody that would play it really. and lorene was great in assembling this cast. we got rose and j.k. simmons, and those were two huge pieces. and then all of the other comedians that are in it, standup comics. and just gals that were so much fun to hang out with. and guys too. i mean michael mckeen was great. and all these little parts, there's not a weak link in the whole thing.

>> it's a real comedy lovers dream. >> yeah. >> you met lorene's mom, her name is gale, right? >> grail, yeah. >> were you thinking i'm going to do a little bit of an impression because she has an accent, this brooklyn. >> hi the accent and i-- yeah, i mean t was written that way. i think it was a very important part because when she goes from new york, new york, long island to l.a., you notice at the baby shower she is all in black. i wore all her mom's clothes too. like all the tops are. >> her real clothes. >> yeah. so she's develop isolated, isolated where she is sitting, in the way she looks. her accent was very important to-- for that but of course you don't want it to get too big. but i had it on my phone, tim who is a friend of mine put it on my phone for every scene so i would check. there was something that we really didn't get on an improv or something, then we could go back during the dubbing and mix some of the things. but it was just a great group of people. because we were movek so fast.

we really only had 23 days. >> that is a short indy scheduled shoot. >> definitely. >> yeah. and rose when you walked on to the set, did you know, you had the mother daughter situation twice over because here you've got susan playing your mother based on your director-writer's own mother. was she there, did she come on set. >> not on set. we didn't let her come on set. we had a double date, the four of us. >> we had dinner together. >> it was fun. >> so was that a strange experience for you to have this doubled sefns a mother daughter relationship to deal with? >> there is a sense of responsibility, absolutely, having you know a real story. but for the most part i really enjoyed it because lorene was so candid and open with information and just sharing anything and everything she could with all of my questions. liked context of the scene or where the character-- because she is sort of emotionally unstable and volatile when we meet lori in the film. so as an actor it is great, you

wants as much information as you can get and obviously throw it out the window. and you just are in the moment, in the scene. but i kind of really liked it. because it was so sperveg and intimate and i hadn't done nik like that for so long. so i really relished just being able to work opposite susan was such an honor. such a fan, been such a fan of her work my whole life. >> for 50 years. >> i really am, she is such a soulful actress. >> thank you. >> such an incredible body of work. so it was really pretty, pretty cool to go to work with her. >> i want to show another clip. we have a scene where you guys are out for a romantic valentine's day dinner. and one of the ways. >> together. >> together. and one of the ways that marny med els in her daughter's life is she takes initiative with your ex-boyfriend. so i think that is a clip we're going to watch. >> it's really good timing for me, you know. i can get out of town. and be busy and finally take my mind off things. >> jacob.

>> exactly. >> . >> hey, i two. >> hey, you two. >> hey, marny yns jacob, good to see you. you know i never said anything bad about you. >> you know elise, right? >> yeah. >> well, we don't want to interrupt your girl time. >> no, no, no. it's fine. we were just doing a drive-by until i go out laterment i didn't want her to have to spend valentine's day alone. >> i didn't want her to spend it alone either. >> i'm not alone. >> no, we're together. >> until later when i'm meeting other people. >> i thought we were having a sleepover. >> well. >> that's so cute. i wish my mom and pri that close. >> oh, well, maybe when you get older. >> were you just taking notes as your mom was living this life alongside you. >> oh, yeah, there are so many things that are

just-- fortunately i never had a run-in like that but we certainly have spent valentine's day together. and i think even on our double date i kicked her under the table once or twice. so you know, yeah, a little bit. >> for you, is it more intimidating or nerve racking it play someone who is a real person, who you have met who you know is going to be watching the film later on? >> as rose say you have a sense of responsibility. certainly in a comedy t wasn't as painful as-- i have played people, you know, in one whose daughter had been murdered and they came to the set. which was a complete recreation of their house. and i was wearing the daughter's watch and you know, and they were at the moniter in a very difficult scene. and that was a bit much. and i have played historical figures, of course, sister hell then deadman walking. really was nervous about that because of the implications of, you know, the political thing. but on the other hand, as rose

said, you have-- your jock is to make it as specific as possible. and so you have this wealth of things to draw from, little details. and that makes is easier. so it's-- you know, pros and cons to did it. but i think in this, there was-- i guess its only thing that would have been terrible, if there had been really no winking at the audience or i have seen some of these kind of moms that were very, very extreme. and though it felt kind of extreme, i tried to grounds it as much in her love and in reality and nopt comment on it. that was, i guess,ed trap for all of us. to get so wound up that you start to make fun of the people instead of just being as objective as possible. of course when i saw it for the first time from the outside i thought she's crazy. what did i do snr so annoying. but everyone seems to forgive

her. and it is from a good place. so i guess she ultimately, kind of do that a few times it is a bit cringe worthy. there is one other scene with him that is really cringe-worthy. well-intentioned. >> all well-intentioned. >> all well-intentioned. >> one of the things that is striking is when you have a film that is about women, primarily, you know, there are so few films that are carried by women in this way that every role starts to have this outside importance. it takes on a different depth because you start to think well, does this woman represent all mothers. and why should she? but there is that sense because we simply don't have that many films with women at the center. >> with her voice. >> yeah. you can see women on screen but a lot of times the story is definitely, even when it's about the woman told from a male's point of view, there was a movie that was a book that i saw recently that the book is written in the voice of the woman and the movie is definitely the voice of the male

and it made a huge difference. i mean not to say one's right or wrong but how it works is definitely different. >> right. and i was really struck watching the film that we don't see this kind of character on screen very much. and we even seeing you on screen a loin, there is not even, there are so many scenes because your character is lonely, she's in the center of the screen just by herself. >> and i'm not dying. i'm not helping someone die. i don't have alzheimer. >> yeah. so lorene are you telling this personal story. was that also a part of it that you wanted to bring female characters that we don't usually season screen to the screen. >> what was fun was it want-- i didn't s3t out to do that. it just sort of happened which is great. just to be able to tell the story about people. and allow them to be a part of the human condition. allow women to be treated as people. to be a part of that. i mean it just sort of happened. and i lover it.

obviously. i feel like we fail the opposite of the-- test almost. because there are very few scenes where men are talking to each other. and. >> yet the guys that have seen it really enjoyed it. they seem so surprised and happy that they really laughed. and a lot of them said it reminded them of their mom or something. so i don't think we made a chick flick. i think that it is something that everybody can be moved and laugh. the movek moments that i like about it is you don't see them coming. you know, i dpnt feel like we really-- lorene didn't sent mamentallize the times when something, you know, it's kind of surprised me when i read the script it was one of the firs times that i have read a script where i didn't know in the first six pages exactly what was-- i'm terrible to watch a movie with because i will look and say oh, she has akoff. we're going to see-- why is she smoking that significantar, hmmmm, you know, and can i call every development that is about to happen to the point where it's really annoying. but i didn't feel that way with

this. >> so lorene, when you were making this film and trying to fill it, did you get the kind of notes we hear about all the time from studio executives saying maybe put another guy into it. maybe you can make the character younger. >> yeah. >> the sort of horror stories that we hear, did that happen to you. >> yeah, i heard it all. we said put marnie in her 50s, put lore ni her 20st which definitely didn't make sense to me. have the male character come in much earlier so that it's a traditional sort of romantic comedy. make the daughter role a lot bigger. maybe even from her point of view. and i just refused. it all seemed to go against the entire idea of the film. i mean not only about characters that are at certain stages in their lives which i think if lori was in her 20st, it wouldn't have been the same. if marnie was in her 50st i don't think it would have been the same. so resisted all of that. i just really thought that it

just had to be kind of exactly this. i mean kind of a daughter on the wrong side of 35. and you know, a woman who if she wanted to, could have hung it up and felt like well, that was it for me. and yet here she is making a go of it. and finding a way to move on. >> what did you learn, what did you guys learn from working together especially all female environment because you had female producers involved too. >> but i think it's a specific females. i don't want to burst anyone's bubble but i have worked on-- the last, all-- the last three or four films i have done have all been directors that were women. >> that's rare. >> and i think that i've worked with women on other things. and just like all men are not particularly commune cattive, sometimes i worked on one film that had a lot of young women and the director ended up being really mean. really mean. the girls hated her by the end of the film.

and so i mean, i any that you especially notice, i think womn, if you are going to generalize as producers because we have been taught to facilitate without the power thing komenting into play as often, you don't have to blame someone when something goes wrong. you just fix it. i notice that is the difference on a set when you have good women producers or first adst are really good, also, as women. that can talk to people and anticipate, multitask. a lot of those things. and especially the more women you have on a set, definitely the vibe changes. but to say that, you know, all women directors are one thing would be as silly as saying that all men directors are the same, you know. so i hope that there will be more and more women because i think the goal is to make sure that women have a chance to be as big assholes as guys are.

that is the direction we need to go in. >> the mawlt might shall-- ultimate. >> yeah, we don't all have to be on good behavior or anything. yeah, but certainly it's to tell a woman's story, from a woman's point of view, i meai suppose you know there have been famous gay writers that have done that, tennessee williams or, you know, other directors have i-- i have worked with that have been able to do that. but i think you stand a very good shot with a woman especially if its her story. the moments that they seem to miss are the moments where no one is talking. and also the editor, that's very important. but to see where something lands, to see where the thought is beginning, lots of times people just want to edit, edit, edit to what they think is the meat of it. which is the talking part, is the dialogue. but to be able to understand, to give characters a moment, to have the reaction, is really where a lot of difference

happens. and when we did that, you know, you can see things developing. and the audience goes along with that. and that's really special. >> are you the kind of director that likes to do a lot of takes. likes to have rehearsal. >> who knows yet. because we didn't have the time or the money to do any of that. i mean i don't think i would be the kind of person who would like to beat something to the ground even if we had all the time in the world. certainly would have liked double time on this, just to allow these great actors to have, you know, one more, two more. but we didn't really need it. that was what-- i mean it was-- we had to go it this way. but it-- with these people it felt like, you know, two, three takes, and you kind of got it. i mean gosh, i don't know. >> there is-- i like working sphas. sometimes if you have too much time you lose the focus. i mean and you-- it's also nice

on a small movie the crew, can stay focused for 23 days. >> yeah. >> and they will do those long days. and they'll-- which we had and we were doing one of those weeks that starts early in the morning on monday and goes all the way through saturday till dawn and you start all over. you can't do that for months and months without people getting cranky. you can hang in for 23 days to do that. and lorene had her birthday it was a very close group of people that wanted to be there. surely not for the money. but for the experience and the script and the company and everything else. and so it was very celebratory. i don't think if you are doing that for four months, you can't sustain that. but to be able to focus, it's almost like stunt work. we were kind of doing stunts. >> a lot of camaraderie when are you all in it together. i group up in-- and that film-- i am used to a very short, very fast, very cheap kind of setup.

>> especially people who bounce back and forth between indie films and bigger budget films like you do, there is a sense when i talk to them that indie films are fun because it is a different kind of film making for sure. but you have that we're all in it together, let's put on a show intensity. >> it really is true. and you do have to focus. people are there because they want to be, not necessarily because they are getting a great paycheck. and at the ind of the day, whether you are on a big film or a smaller film like the meddler, it is still you, the script, the director, the other actor. and it is still the same, ste end of the day it's still the same kind of thing. so i try to remember that, in all situations, whether you are being rushed and you don't have time or whether it is intimidatek and overwhelming. >> but to have someone that you are working with that has a great sense of humor and great comic timing that can be that emotionally accessible is really unusual. the only other person i have met beside rose is mel isesa mccarthy who was surprisingly

able to tap into crying take after take, you know. >> with her hot lod hair. >> so open and so full. but i think, you know, the scenes that rose had were, i keep calling it the x-games of acting because you had to go in angry, then cry, then be happy, then get angry, then cry again. and you know, like only you don't have a lot of time to go off somewhere and get yourself situationed. she had to come up with it right away. and i was pretty just following her lead most of the time in it was fun for me to just watch her and respond. but she had to be the one driving. >> did doing this film change your relationship, rose, for example with your mom? >> well, my mom is very, not overbearing at all in that sense. if she does, you know, med el, it's very rarely so it's quite a powerful move when she does. so i really perk up and listen. but they're very australian in that sense. quite restrained and very

low-key, and no fus. they would do anything for me, but they're great, they're wonderful. but it definitely makes you examine all relationships in your life whether it is your parent or a boyfriend or girlfriend you've had that is a little bit too involved. and i have a hard time being aggressive and a sertive with people sometimes, so i do tend to get myself in situations where i'm all of a sudden just doing what i am told all the time. like i'm acting because i'm quite o bed yent. >> just tell me where to stand. >> lorene, what was the experience like of watching the film with your mom when it was finally over? >> i mean we've had a few stages of it, i mean she saw every cut, you know. she wasn't a laked on set but i did call her every day, let her know how the day went. i would let her see dailies and stuff. it's been surreal. it was certainly therapeutic at some point. and now i mean she's just having a great time, you know. e says oh, daddy would have

loved to be married to susan sarandon. so it is surreal on so many levels. but it is more personal now than it was before, honestly. like this is the weirdest part fome. at least, is sharing it with people. and because it was certainly personal on paper but then when we went to work and were just trying to make a fim trk wasn't. >> but we were still in your house, with your dogs, with her clothes and now, now it's screut niezed by the world. >> i know. >> hopefully. >> and they will be like what's with her tops. blame my mother, please. >> yeah, no, it's by glamplet and we screened it and we had a premier in los angeles. and my mother and i experienced that completely differently. as we have experienced almost everything differently. but my friends were all wailing and sobbing and having a hard time. and she and her friends just had a blast. aren't we nuts. aren't moms crazy. just had a completely different night. >> did you consider doing there as a tv series.

>> i was told to. and i was told to because i was-- someone said that female characters are allowed to flourish on television and that just made my head explode. so i tried to imagine it. what is funny is i just didn't want to live with it for that long. now i feel like. >> i wouldn't have wanted to either. >> it has just been years but i was excited to give this character a cinematic life it made me feel like well sure, she might not have been a giant in the world, but i just thought that there should be a beginning, middle and end for a character, you know, that doesn't change all that much. but allow her to have, you know, an experience. and it was sort of the reason for the story was to allow for a very, you know, human character to undergo some great adventure and fun and you know, a love interest that doesn't exist in real life. but yeah. >> yet. >> yet, yet.

i know, we're working on it. >> it is a genre of film that kind of strad els the boundary between comedy and descrama which people are saying is disappearing from the multiplex as we are going into this tent pole you know action movie universe. what can we do to convince people that we want to see more of this besides you know, butts in seats. >> butts in seats, you know, money talks, i think. and it's hard to argue with superhero movies that people just come out in droves for. but i don't know, these are my favorite kinds of movies. they've been my favorite kinds of films for ever, dram-edys, drama comedies, the '80s had james brooks there were so many films like this that i could reference that are over 20 years old. and i miss the betweeners. i miss the movies that are, you know, more than $2 million and under $100 million. i don't know, i hope that people just spread the word and maybe

just not say that all movies starring women are genre film, that are chick flicks or something. i mean i think it's about opening up to people and being inclusive. >> they don't call the other ones flicks. >> they could. >> they probably will. >> i'm curious to see, i would love to see what happens in other countries. because you know, moms have very strong influences in italy, spain, i was even surprised when we did the client press in swrap an. i had never thought of that as being a country where the mother figure was really, really important cuz it's kind of, to me was a subdued culture. compared to greek moms or italian moms, ones that i knew. so i am curious. i think we're going to take it to italy to see how they react there, you know, whether or not the mom. > is a universal.

>> problem. >> i think you're going to find that that is the case. you find this character in a lot of different cultures. so thank you all for coming. meddler is out april 2 2-7bd. everybody go see it and call your mom. >> for more about this programnd earlier episodes visit us online at pbs.org and charlie rose.com. z captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

. >> rose: funding for charlie rose is provided by the following: and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services wor

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