>> welcome to the program, i'm a.o. scott filling in for charlie rose who is off tonight. we begin with guest host al hunt who recaps yesterday's new york primary. al is joined by joe klein, lisa letter and ed rollins. >> the difference in the campaign, we're now going to is a new clear war, nothing but rubble at the end of the day. if bill clinton thinks cruz is not going to hit on-- whatever it takes, my sense is they've got everything they want on cruz, everything they want on trump. i assume republicans have got everything they want on hillary and bill. and watch bill overreact as he did this past week with bernie sanders, his blood pressure must have gone 25 point this week and i worry about his health. but i would just say from day one, once there is a nominee here t will be hand grenades full boar and a billion dollars adding on to the negatives

already there, nothing but rubble left. somebody will survivor but it will be a survival. >> we conclude with the new movie a bigger splash joined buy luka guadagnino and tilda swinton an ralph fiennes. >> we didn't sit around-- what is great about being not on a set, it is real t immediately gives us so much. >> politics and a new movie when we continue. >> funding for charlie rose is provided by the following: captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose.

>> good evening, i'm al hunt of bloomberg view filling in for charlie rose who is on assignment. we begin this evening with a look at last night's new york primaries. donald trump reclaimed control of the republican race handily beating out john kasich and ted cruz. trump won nearly 65% of the vote, capturing around 90 of the 95 delegates. on the democratic side hillary clinton halted bernie sanders win streak. she won over 63% of the vote. the wide margin of victory lead her to declare last night that the nomination is now, quote, in sight. >> to all the people who supported senator sanders, i believe there is much more that you nights us than divides us. (cheers and applause) >> we are going to keep our families safe and our country strong. and we're going to defend our rights. civil rights, voting rights, workers' rights, women's rights,

lgbt rights and rights for people with disabilities. the race for the democratic nomination is in the homestretch. and victory is in sight. >> joining knee mow, joe klein, political columnist for time magazine. ed rollins, republican campaign consultant who ran ronald reagan's 1984 presidential campaign. and lisa letter, national politics reporter for the associated press covering hillary clinton. i'm pleased to have them all at this table. ed, let me ask you this, trump, a huge victory in new york. does that clearly put him in a pathway to $1,237 delegates. >> it sure does. i'm a great believer in musm he has still got a struggle. if californiak my home state originally sort of be the alamo if he does pretty well there. i think will do well next week. but if he does pretty well there he will come with the delegates or pretty close. >> pretty close. >> lisa k hillary now segue to

the general election or is she still worried about bernie nipping her heels. >> we're going to certainly see her start to make that pivot. we started to see that last e can lose by huge margins in all the states but there is no indication that bernie sanders will drop out any time soon and really, why would he. he has the momentum, the enthusiasm, he's getting 28,000 people here in prospect park. >> in prime time in philadelphia in july. >> should she win in the white house and all those things. he will still be in the game. the question is whether he starts pivoting away from attacks or leaning into them. if he is leaning into them, that will be a problem for her. >> they both won in their home states or adopted home states. did it tell us much about either of the candidates or the american election of this year? >> i was really happy as a native new yorker to see the return of culinary pop lism. you have to do hold dogs and coney island. >> you have never eaten pizza with a fork.

>> no, no, no. i'm tempted to say that what happened last night is that the nomination process pretty much ended in both parties exsuspect for the fact that this is 2016 and we don't know what is going to happen next week. >> we've been wrong before. >> we don't know what will happen next week. momentum, ed, i'm a big believer in momentum too. but it lasts only about 48 hours these days. >> my if we only think of new york, we will be on to the next round. the asela primary. >> let me pick up on that. trump probably will do well in the northeast corridor, from maryland up to rhode island. there is every reason to think, he may not do as well as new york but will do well. but the recaps of that, even before california is indiana, 57 delegates, winner take all by congressional district and statewide. all three including, i mean john kasich as well as cruz, i could see right now thinking boy, indiana, i could win that. >> i think there is also a lot of to kuses-- focus in pennsylvania. pennsylvania has a lot of delegates that are basically run unaffiliated. one told me today one of our

guys, that don't think that trump has the state wrapped up. he may win the state but he doesn't have the delegates wrapped up, so shall. >> i mean pennsylvania is interesting. because that's not an ohio accent that john kasich has. me.d he has got-- he's got the and last night was a not bad night for him. it was a terrible night for him but it was better than ted cruz. >> compared to what. >> ted cruz. and if you look at the polling in the states that are coming in the primary, kasich is running second, ahead of cruz in many of them. but i think that the real issue now is that both candidates have to solve something going forward. for hillary, it is the enthusiasm gap. and for trump, it's whether or not he's going to try to be a conventional politician. i mean he tried last night and gave a very short, you know,

instantaneous for him, you know, victory speech. he called cruz senator cruz. i was bored to tears. i mean really, you know. >> let's talk about that. but let me-- i don't want to get off indiana quite yet. i want to come back to both trump and hillary and their personas and their policy. you know indiana, ed. who would you give the edge to right now? >> i would give the edge to cruz. >> you would. >> and that could change momentum back again. >> it quons. you have to remember, indiana is the one state that shifted back and forth on president obama. so you know, we, he won it the first time, we won it back the second time it should be one of our states in the long-term but you have the governor that doesn't particularly like trump. you've got former governor that we are all friends with, mitch daniels, used to work with me in the white house. and trump doesn't quite fit the conventional. >> let's assume for a second that cruz or kasich, that kasich does well in pennsylvania, cruz then does well in indiana, the

next week. that changes the big mo as we were talking about just a minute ago. california, you know, on june 7th, it's what, 172 delegates. winner take all by 53-- by 53cdst. i mean that's as complex as you can get. >> trump has had no play there. cruz has been there for six months. cruz has august the conservative leaders, party leaders, what have you. he has worked that state very, very hard. you know, i don't-- normally it's a media state. but i think in this particular state it will be about grass roots efforts. i think to a certain extent if the election were next week, cruz would win it i think pretty easily. >> the republican party in-- excuse me. >> i said man, what a year. the republican nomination decided in the bronx and berkeley, who would have thought, right? >> love that line. >> interesting thing that has happened to the republican party in california is that it's kind of fallen apart of the all the moderates have left. and. >> you have health. >> you have in the central part

of the state, i was out there in the last congressional election you have a pretty big tea party movement. you have what is the left of the republican party in california and ed, correct me if i'm wrong, is not the old moderate republican party. it is a very conservative party. >> very active advantage cruz. >> advantage cruz and he has most of those people lined up already, working hard for him. >> lisa, let me did you, who would hillary prefer to run against, do you think? >> i think there is no question that they would prefer to run against at the cruz, ilry clinton and her campaign see that as a conventional race against a guy that they see as pretty conservative. probably the most conservative nominee we've-- we would have ever had on the republican side. the concern about donald trump is more the unpredict able. and the expectation particularly there is some anxiety i've been told from bill clinton that he would bring up all those 90st scandals that would all come back. he would be defending his legacy. she would be defending his

legacy. it would be very ugly, very nasty. and you know, she's not the best campaigner. there's certainly a question about how she would deal with that. i don't know who on that team wants to play donald trump in debate prep but i bet it's a very popular assignment. >> boy, that would be a killer. >> every reporter is a frustrated campaign manager. you know that. >> and a frustrated reporter. >> it's overrated. why, i would think that kasich and cruz should have a con spirs see of sorts and pick and choose their places. just a couple of examples. i think cruz could win probably 30 or 35 districts. kasich could never win. but new jersey is that day too. winner take all state wide. ted cruz has no chance in new jersey. john kasich who has an attractive gubernatorial record, much better than chris christies, might be able to give trump a contest in new jersey but not if cruz is there. >> he could, the problem with john who i have known for 35 years, love dearly, john still thinks he can win this thing.

so he is not going to cut any deals. he doesn't want to be vice president. he still wants to be the nominee and in his-- i don't want to say delusion but in his thought process he still think there is a road map. >> you don't want to get in the way of chris christie on his home turf. when we saw him up in new hampshire this year, this guy is a terrific campaigner. no matter what else you say about him. and he has bet his-- bet his farm on donald trump. and so i think that the other two candidates will say okay. >> it loses because he bet it on new hampshire. i think he came in 7th or 8th. >> 7 percent of the vote. >> and he blamed that on marco rubio. you remember marco rubio. >> they took each other down. >> let me, you know, we're talking, let me talk about trump and miss clinton here. peter hart, distinguished pollster, nbc "the wall street journal" poll this week says that donald trump has the worst numbers he has ever seen of a national candidate.

24% favorable, 65% unfavourable. 64/12 negative on handling an international crisis, 71/12 on-- doesn't have the right temperment. actually 64-20. those are numbers, ed. have you ever seenumbers that bad. >> i have never seen numbers that bad. but equally important hillary doesn't have the numbers. >> but how does trump turn his, at least stop those-- stop that hemorrhaging. >> it's going to be really hard. because as i implied before, if he tries to be conventional politician he is going to lose alot of the naughty energy that got him this far. >> right. >> you will find out that he doesn't know anything. the biggest question between hillary an trump will be who spends more time doing their hair in the morning. >> that's another great contest. >> lisa, i think joe or ed has got a very good point. trump's numbers are the worst that peter has ever soon. but hillarys are not very good. 56-3412 unfavourable. people say she's not trust

worthy, she's not likable. what is brooklyn as the campaign is called, headquartered, what do they say about how they can turn any of that around. >> any other year those are numbers that would. >> leap them. >> this is not any yearment this is a highly unpredictable year. if she is against done all trump, they believe she will start to look better by comparison. that he will motivate her base and the enthusiasm gap will not be as much of a problem because he will drive out particularly minority voters, latinas to the polls to protest. she'll be able to capitalize on some of that energy. they're also looking at how she campaigned here in new york as a model. she did a lot of stops, you know, i think on monday i was with her. we did eight stops all over the city. we were in carwashes in queens and chinese strants, and flushing, and she was a gay lesbian bisexual center in manhattan and she was everywhere and loose and comfortable. they want to put her in more of those setk. >> we don't have as many of those in virginia. >> she can go to a barbecue and

put her in more settings where she can be more intimate with people. >> i can remember another candidate who had pretty much wrapped up the nom nation and had numbers as bad as hillary clinton at exactly this point in the campaign. >> i know who you are going to say. >> bill clinton. >> right, right. >> what they learned from that, what carville will tell you, i think, correct me if i'm wrong, their biggest problem was that people thought he was a person of privilege. and what they did was remember the man from hope. and once they did that, they were helped by ross per ot, obviously. >> there were a couple of things that clinton did that were really interesting and they may point the way for hillary. one is that he had the whole ross perot spectacle. which took a lot of-- a lot of the jazz away from george h-w bush who didn't have much jazz in the firs place. and the fact that perot turched out to be crazy, you know, didn't heart either. but also he made this very interesting vice presidential pick. he picked his cloan, he picked al gore, a moderate southerner

from right across the river in tennessee. people didn't do that kind of thing, make those kind of vice presidential choices. and i can tell you right. >> generational. >> it was a generationalk all of a sudden there was a lot of energy. they were in buses going through the center of the country. and hillary clinton can do the exact same thing. >> which woman does she pick. >> elizabeth warren. >> and that would energize the bern-- the bern yoa base wouldn't worry as muchs about bernie if they got the real deal. >> i not sure i take that but it would be-- she certainly is going to be on the list. she will certainly be considered. i think the numbers also bring us back to why you are seeing this outpouring of frustration from brooklyn after new york about bernie sanders. is there is a lot of overlap between the bernie sanders critique of hillary clinton and donald trump krilt eke of hillary clinton on issues like trade, campaign finance. you know, they are talking about a lot of the same things. they're concerned, clinton's campaign is concern is that what bernie sanders is saying now dove tails right into that general election argument.

>> these elections for president usually are about change. and how would you run against hillary clinton? and how does she prpb herself as any kind of an agent for change? >> i would-- you know, if i was running trump a's campaign which i am not, i would make it a real strong leadership and basically adverse to the old, she plays it safe. she doesn't want to repeat the obama and bill clinton. i think he's got to do something different. the difference in this campaign unlike those we just talked about, we're now going to have a new clear war. it will be nothing but rubble left at the end of the day. if bill clinton thinks that cruz is not going to hit them, we're going to-- whatever it takes, my sense is they have got everything they want on cruz, everything they want on trump. i assume republicans have got everything they want on hillary and bill. and watch bill overreact as he did this past week with bernie sanders. his blood pressure must have gone 25 point this week. and i worry about his health. but i would just say from day one, once there is a nominee here, it's going to be hand grenades bull boar and a billion dollars adding on to the

negatives already there. nothing but rubble left. someone will survival but it will be a survival. >> we talked about hillary clinton not considered trust worthy. joe, you have written that donald trump lies egregiously. incredible. >> we all have read that. >> we have seen politicians exaggerate, distort, you know, but never anything like this. seeing a thousand muslims demonstrate, didn't happen. you know, to the largest weinery on the east coast, not true. but it doesn't seem to matter. >> not only does that not matter, but the fact that he doesn't know anything doesn't mattedder either. there are a lot of republicans walking around saying to themselves, i don't know what i am going to do with my investments if this guy gets to be president because we'll have a trade war and a depreks. >> you could have the biggest tax cut in history which he promowsed, not touch entitlements and pay down the national debt in eight years, 19 trillion, that is feasible. >> that is how president george w. bush did it too. >> exactly. ed wa, do you think of donald trump as a potential commander in chief.

>> it scares me, to be perfectly honest. i hope he reads the constitution before he gets inaugurated if he is the-- and i hope he realizes there is another role in our system, that is the congress. and the congress is not going to be better. democrats will control the snalt or very close to controlling it. we're still going to have the house. they're not going to roll over and play dead, they're not going to build a wall if mexico doesn't pay for it which they are not going to pay for it my sense there are a lot of things out there, a very uncertain time, he is very uncertain. >> i think it raises an interesting question between a trump clinton race, how it reshapes traditional coalitions. do you see foreign policy hawks, republicans come over to clinton. do you see upper people, white working class men in the upper midwest that maybe were democrats go to trump. like how, how did the politics shift and change and it could be. >> the only problem with the ladder, we talk about the reagan democrats, they ain't democrats any more. >> that's true. about i mean there is a sense among some republicans that there could be movement, if he has a pathway it's through the upper midwest an rust belt.

>> it's still hard. i hear people say oh, trump has a great chance in new york. i remind them there is a 2 million vote margin. as for those white working class members, they are not all republicans now. i mean, you know, lisa he point is a good one. that there are an awful lot of people. u a-w members who voted for bernie because of trade and all the other things. and because they've always considered themselves good democrats who nai not vote for hillary. who might be more likely to vote for trump because. trade issue. i think she's got a big-- i think peter hart also in his latest poll showed that hillary clinton has less support among white males than barack obama did. >> that's true. >> obama's numbers have come up. it may be comparable, but look at obama say hey, he's not so bad. but his numbers are pretty good right now, at least compared to what they were. >> and you see her trying to

replicate the obama coalition, so many of her focus is on keeping turnout high among african-americans, driving turnout and driving turnout among women because she knows that white men are going to be a tough sell for her. >> i find her todying to al sharpton, and the litany of rights that people had that you showed at the top of the show. i find that kind of distasteful. and morally questionable. i mean when bill clinton ran for president there were three words on his bus. opportunity, community and responsibility. hillary clinton never talks about responsibility. she only talks about rights. that's true of politicians in general these days. but in her case, she has-- has not gone up against the base of her party under as opposed to donald trump who goes up against the base of what may or may not be. >> that's right. but i think that's true. she certainly has done-- she's

done some 170st if not 1 '80s. she helped put together originally the transpacific trade pact which i have to believe in her heart of hearts she knows is better to have tharch not have. she has come out against it. she certainly wasn't as hostile to wall street as she's been in the last couple of months, lisa. but it's hard, if she is not trusted to begin with, she can't pivot back. >> she has also not been under attack. she has had a seven month campaign where she has not been attacked. i promise you, whether it is cruz or trump, there is going to be heavy, heavy hand grenades. >> personal and policy. >> absolutely. >> she has a long record and it's rich. she's been all over the map on trade, on gay marriage. she's slid -- there is a whole long list of issues where she's changed position. that will be ripe territory for someone like done all trump. but again, he's been all over the map too. >> she has had a quarter century of republican grenades headed her way. and she brags about that all the time, and rightly so. she's gotten pretty tough. but she's never been in a

one-on-one campaign where the attacks were focused on her, her personality, her competent tense. >> and her integrity. >> and i got to say that i think that the clinton foundation is going to be a huge issue in the fall the same way that bain capital was in the fall. >> that is what republicans have been saying they are checking stuff. what we were talking about earlier. she also has sop dk-- she has great policy strengths there is no question that she knows as much as anybody who has run for president. but she has got some weakness. >> she is not a great candidate. >> the republicans i think made a huge mistake by focusing on benghazi which is a scandal. her policy in libya has inned up a disaster and no one has criticized her for that. bernie really laid low on that. >> but you know, when you talk-- but her strengths are her ability to take a problem set before her and figure out what the various exorn ents are and

then-- components are and try to figure out a way to solve it. the problem is that sometimes she comes up with the wrong answer as in libya, as in syria, by the way. she wanted to go in there and i think that that would have bfn every bit as much of a disaster. but you know. >> has obama made clear in his interview with charlie this week. >> yeah. >> but and alsof course that is a skill set that has not been particularly valued this year, this anti-establishment year of anger and frustration. people don't want problem solving and slow kind of policy changes. that's not what they are voting for. >> she knows more stuff than all the rest of these candidates put together. >> this is a year when nobody cares about stuff. >> at the don't. and if we have this ugly campaign in the fall which almost-- which i think all three of you say is highly likely, personal and full of insults and the lake, some one is going to win, probably hillary clinton and then they have to govern. and campaigns make a difference as far as your capacity to govern. and that's going to be a real problem for the next president.

>> and the problems aren't going away. >> and they won't be addressed much in the fall because it will be more like, you know, the clinton foundation or trump's, you know, scandals. >> who knows what the republican party looks like at the end of this. >> right. >> but you all three of you know that there are an awful lot of sain, rational, experienced people roaming around in the area of public policy and in politics. and none of them are being expressed, you know, in the course of a presidential campaign or the way things work in washington. it's all the extremes. there's got to be at some point in the next couple of years a convening of the sanity caucus. and a group of people has to say we just can't continue as a country this way. i don't know who would lead it. i don't know who would be part of it. but i do think that it's time for the grownups to step back in a little bit.

>> ed, let me ask you a question. you ran ronald reagan's campaign in 1984. you knew the gipper for 25 or so years. what would ronald reagan think of this year? and what would he think of the republican party today? >> he would be appalled by the performance. he was never a name caller. obviously polingsee differences, the fact they keep reaching for his mantle and yet at the same time they're punching each other's lights out. he would be appalled by that. >> he also as you guys know having covered him, he had very significant things that he believed in and he argued them all the way through. strong national defense, lower taxes, smaller government, those kinds of things are very sismg he never backed away from. he had a core of beliefs that he stuck right through and obviously we're all over the place in this campaign. >> joe klein, ed rollins and lisa letter, thank you so much. i think we actually informed people a little bit today. we'll be right back. >> good evening, i'm a.o. scott of "the new york times" sitting in for charlie rose who is off tonight." a bigger splash "is the new film

from director luka guadagnino. tilda swinton plays mary ann lane, a world famous rock star whose private vacation with her partner is interrupted by the arrival of a former lover played by ralph fiennes and his daughter. here is the trailer for "a bigger splashings with. >> she is the woman of the century. and i am i'm talking about her soul now. >> i hate that sound. >> hello. >> i found you. >> i'm so happy to see you. >> you can talk, can't you. >> i'm sorry-- meet mary ann. >> oh, i should have known you would bring a prot gay. >> i'm his daughter. >> love is my temple.

>> how many years ago. >> you're pretty dommest kateed for a rock star. >> i have done anything to upset you? within do you want some? >> i don't smoke. >> that doesn't mean you don't want some. >> we were friends. better than brothers. >> are we nighting? >> just stop talking. the world is not ready. >> what is-- in your life any more. you done deserve either of them. >> i fall in love with ef pre-- every pretty thing. >> you don't want to do this. >> i love you. >> everyone is obscene, that's the whole point. >> she's the woman of the century. >> look what i've done.

>> joining me now is the film director luka guadagnino and two of its stars tilda swinton, the woman of the century and ralph fiennes. welcome. >> thank you. >> good to see you. >> thank you. >> i saw this movie for the first time in venice and it was really an stra overred experience it was very exciting. it left me with two fundamental questions. one of them is who are these people, the other one is what is this place. maybe we could start with that, this is-- it takes place on this island, pontolaria. is what is this place? how did you find it? >> i visited the place when i was 15, 30 years ago. and i remember it was a strange vacation with my classmates. it was a-- i left the island bringing with me a sense of, you

know, displacement from the place. it's not a very reconciled place. it's a tough place to be. there is this very strong wind, actually two windses that blast the island. >> where is it, exactly? >> it's off the coast of tunisia, it's italia-- italian but actually it's africa. and when i got the opportunity to make these loosely remaining of the movie lapecine, my instinct came back to that island, to the memory. and i felt okay, that movie was about four french people lounging on the cote da glurks re and i was remotely interested in that. i said let's bring people who were foreign and be challenged by a very-- a place that brings a lot of otherness to it. and that is how everything started. >> well, you do have a sense of the place almost kind of haunting these characters who are-- yeah, who are foreign to

it. and i mean they're tourists. they're on vacation but there is something more sinnister afoot that does seem to come from the place itself. >> i like when you have this paintings and you say what is it, the figure in the lance scape, that is a scripg of what i really like. and i think both figures in the landscape are protting a nises so i think it is important to have that kind of interaction, not only visually but in terms of how they both interact with one another. >> well, because it starts out mary ann and her lover paul played are in a kind of paradise. they have just gone to escape all of their lives. and then and all of the kind of the stresses of civilization. and then all of a sudden you could say the snake arrives in the garden, in the person of harry. but there's a striking thing

about mary ann in this movie which is that she almost, she speaks almost not at all. she is recovering from throat surgery. she's a singer, a rock star, someone who lives by her voice. where did that, that idea come from, to have her basically muted. >> well, when luka first asked me to consider being in the film, i looked at this idea of this tension between these people, particularly between these two people. because there's nothing more annoying when you with your new lover than your old ex coming and ramping up the volume. and. >> it happened to you, hasn't it. >> it hasn't but have i a really active imagination. and i have seen the film. and it just occurred to me that it would be an interesting experiment, especially since, you know, harry never draws breathe. and you also get the sense in a certain kind of flashbacks that she also was very gar elous with him, they had a very mowsy

relationship. and i just thought the idea of a really-- old relationship, being unable to operate, in this way would be interesting. but also it was the place. because yes, they are tourists but they're more than tourists. becauser in's in this sort of quawm space of luxury. the luxury is the real character, i think. they're not just tourists that are going to experience the island. they're people who are extremely privileged. in a sort of hiatus and paul and mary ann are both running away, certainly, from painful stuff. mary ann's mother recently died. he recently attempted suicide and has just gone clean. and they're hiding out as paul says when harriet arrives. but they're hiding out in this luxurious kind of towel scenario.

>> it's this exquisite bubble, right. and you do see aspects of the reality of the island sometimes. you see my grants from africa who are big problem, that the local people are dealing with. and you get a glimpse of the lives of the locals but yeah, paul and mary ann have constructed this stort of perfect fantasy world where all of their needs an desires can kind of effortlessly be met. but then harry arrives to-- with his daughter played by disa cot a johnson. and his arrival in this movie is one of the most extraordinary entrances, i think, in a recent movie. and i mean you say he turns up the volume. the guy is at. >> i think he is someone that has always exist with this kind of volume. he is not someone-- he's got to a place where he can't ever sit in the still part of himself. he's always in this mode of

hearing himself talk, pushing other people. and having, is he sort of addicted i think to a need to could be stantly push people's personas. and their protective defensive idea of themselves. so he's got an anarcic. there is a kind of honesty. once he demanded himself a certain honesty. >> there is great unpredict ability too. and i always wonder when you see that, in a film, you know, how much of it is in a way kind of planned and strat giezed and how much of it is kind of happening in the moment. i mean even though this film does follow the plot of the previous movie, you see, it does nt at all seem like a movie that is unfolding according to its plot or story line it seems like it's kind of happening and there are times when you think everything, anything can happen

and none of these characters is in control of anything. and i'm curious about how you generate that kind of feeling within the-- within the production. >> first of all, the something i want to avoid which is, i think we all want to avoid which is the constructed arc of a narrative that is the now seems to be universal mode model for cinema, not only in hollywood and in america but in general. which you are killing every surprise from an audience and you are feeding expectations. that is something that i really became more and more aware by the simple act of reading scripts that had been submitted to me and finding myself ahead of the script all the time. and not because i'm particularly clever but because everything was really following a pattern.

so when i speak to my writer in this specific case, the great-- who wrote the scripts, we both were aware of one thing to not go to any exposition or to not go to any you know, mold truth about the characters or anything. the other point is that i mean in this table, this mythical table, we all love our very serious movies about other people. and we grow up by watching them and by enjoying the possibility of exploring the human nature. and so that is what really drives me. and that's why the pecine was a downer, but it was also an uplifting choice because it was about other people. it was possibility for me to. >> so you were approached with the idea of remaining this film.

>> probably because i-- was mistakenly perceived about luxurious-- luxurious movie will luxurious people. >> because it was about arist cats. >> i think it will end up a triology of the riches. >> it is about bou rgeois which is crumble at any moment as you know. >> but i think the possibility of character study, it's pornts. >> maybe we can look at the clip of the two characters that tilda and ray play. reuniting. >> is it you?

>> god, i have-- so happy to see you. why didn't you let me know were you here. you know i love this place. i'm in rome all summer. the doctor said two moreif you weeks. it's the kids. >> hey, come here. >> you look fantastic. >> thanks. >> you look sexy. >> i'm sorry we didn't call but we're hiding out. >> hiding out, not from me, come on. >> not any more, anyway. >> come on, well, when i'm finished with you you will be-- meet mary ann and paul. >> oh, you brought a protege, nice to meet you. >> i'm his daughter. >> so this is assembling all of the four-- the four pieces of the puzzle but going back to what luka was saying. how did the two of you kind of explore the relationships of these-- of these characters? how did that happen in the course of the production. >> i don't know. it's so-- it felt really easy to

imagine, i think. we didn't really discuss it much. i think we-- there is something about the way in which lu ca works which i want to mention which is that when we talk about the kind of material of the plot, really what we need to talk about is the atmosphere that he creates. because the atmosphere is almost more important than anything that happens. it is a character. it is a rhythm it is like a musical score that sense of environment. and all the characters exist within this environment but they are relating to environment all the time. so what we have here is a holiday movie which is-- ripe for nightmare every time. holiday movie, high luxury and old lovers. and overrevving delight and happiness. it really beyond that i don't think we need it to plot our way. we just reacted off that.

real. it immediately gives us so much. we can-- you know, the path to the pool, the drinks cabinet, the refrigerator, all that stuff was so real. immediately you feel the history that you read on the pages in front of you in the physical reality. >> yes, exactly. >> and i fell just the coordinates of space, thanks allots to maria too, i think, the settings, was helped i think. >> because there is a great sense of physicality and sense allity. and it's highlighted in a way by the fact that mary ann can't speak. but also the way that harry moves. i mean he does have this really show-stopping dance routine where he drops the needle on the rolling stones record. and it's really quite-- quite

magical. and just, but that scene also and many of these scenes sort of unfolds with a kind of almost dangerous sense of spon naiity. you don't know where the boundaries are or what kind of-- . >> a little bit chaotic, the fim, which is a good thing, isn't it. you let things spill, no? >> i think that every movie is also a documentary apart from a stage thing, and specifically about that scene, you get a profound sense of unspoken bond or history between-of-ree-- all the characters and in particular between mary ann and harry by the simple moment in which he's telling the story of the voo do lounge, and the routine that is going through that mary ann knows by the book.

and she's almost anticipating the line he's going to say right before. and he's not feeling mocked by her. but it is a completely-- because its-- that is unpayable, you know, it's something fantastic but it happens when you happen to have such wonderful collaborators. and it is about the listening, it is really listening too to what is not on the page. >> i think one of the things where i felt, because it came right late s after we had been shopping, and we have a ro-w and mary wants to sort of build a bridge and we go to the old lady who makes ricotta, she was the real lady that really makes ri cota, that was her house. that was something that came relatively late as to where this scene would happen. it was originally a party, want it. >> it came probably while we were shooting. yeah, it was a strange, con

triefed sequence which we were all quite uncomfortable with on the page. they were going to another socialite gathering. but it wasn't really working. and i remember i went to buy ricota to the very same place where this great lady rosa does ricota by order. and i thought oh, maybe harry knows the island very well and instead of bringing mary ann after their fight to a place in which is alien to her, he brings her to a place that she doesn't know and reveals an aspect of himself. and that's an interesting thing. because in doing so, he let mary ann being again open to him and he has a sort of tromp loleil. he think thases what he created is a door for getting her back which is not true. so it is an interesting ambiguous moment and yet it is a place, a moment that happens in the place where we shot.

swi very strongly related to the place. which is porntd. >> well, i mean there is the question of harry's motive. throughout. of what exactly he's doing there. what he wants to happen, paul is an old friend of his. he's arrived with this young daughter. and he can see, and i think in the scene that you are talking about, is one of the points where you are not sure if he's scheming and man i latif and motivated by kind of gu ile or is, in fact, a genuine open thus yak. >> i-- entheus yas particular person. >> i think he has this strong personality that he can't divorce limb of. and the memory of what this was, and how stupid he was to let it go, and he was probably unfaithful multiple times or whatever, but suddenly i think he has hit a point of critical

mass in his early 50st. and of existential, what am i, what is the point of it all. and this was this and i think for all of his apparent confidence and energy and stuff, he is actually completely lost. desperate for an anchor. >> there is another scene to look at, i think, with, when o harry asks mary ann what he is talking about,when he is talking about her relationship with paul, this old friend and prot gay of his. let's look at that one. >> what is the point of-- paul in your life now. >> i was angry around you you use todz go so hard, and now look what i have done. >> he is square, mary ann, he's a square bear. and you're cuddly and built for hibernating with and he's stuck. >> i will always be grateful to

you for paul. >> how are you dealing with it? huh? >> what if he doesn't come back? >> it might not come back, have you thought about that? it's your-- life. your voice is your-- life. no doubt you'll just reinvent yourself again, won't you? is wearing your mother's clothes that reinvention? within if i way, i suppose will you have your mummee phase and i will have my daddy phase. one way or another we're just going to grow old together, aren't we?

>> i'm happier. can't you understand that? >> there's something very painful about somebody wanting to have a fight and being the only one who can talk. >> yes. >> yeah, within and yet in the first line she whispers and says the most devastating cruelest thing in you know, thank you. i will always be grateful to you for giving me paul which is just completely cutting off what harry wants to happen there. but it is, it is amazek to watch what happens in a scene where one person has the voice. and yet show the other person almost by virtue of being silent has a kind of power in the

dynamic that the other one doesn't. >> and again i think this has to do with the environment of the film. the fact that it's not only this strange edited holiday environment but it's also on this very, very strange island. i mean it is of all islands pretty of the strangest island i have ever been to. it's volume cantic. it's got not only the winds but it has this incredibly brutal history and also contemporary life as being right on the point where people are heading out of africa and being what they call processed. and these four people are living in denial of that. so this denial i think is also a character in the film. and it's interesting, you ask whether you know we look to see whether harriet is either-- harry is being mall ianed or genuinely touched. i think it can be both. i think most of the time. >> well, and these people are also, i mean, there's another important piece there. they're both artists.

and i think there is an important role, i mean the island is sort of one secondary or am beent character. but rock 'n' roll is another one. >> they're not just artists. they're collaboratedders but they're also rock 'n' rollers and as we know rock 'n' rollers don't die. they don't age and they don't go on vacation for a month and they don't stop talking. and they don't settle down with cozy bears. they keep it. >> well, and that is very much in that scene. that sort of anxiety of aging, of becoming on sol esence, you're not supposed to be a mother, a father. you're supposed to be he sternlly youthful and rebellious and all of that. >> i suppose in that way also the existence of pen elbe-- pen el me, the da cota johnson character is also important because she is not only the newly discovered daughter for this newly discovered father, but there is this sort of strange ecoabout the possibility

nobody ever talks about whether mary ann ever had a child. you get the sense that she didn't. and if she had a child she would probably be pen el me's age, this whole kind of ghost life they might have had. again it as been edited out. >> yeah, and sort of hovering, hovering around them. i mean how porpt was rock 'n' roll to your conception of the movie. >> well, the island was the foundation of my idea of the move year. because i am very interested on the failures of the generation behind me. and i was reading and thinking a lot about that. and about this possibility of growing up and the impobility of letting go. like most of the cinema i grew up with comes from the new wave in italy. and most of this enormous au

authors never past the one of their art to new people. and that in a way was the leading way to the privacy of contemporary cinema which i think is really the best thing. and their lack of the-- of land gage and cinema. and so the generation that comes off of, after the waves, as being not nurtured, to have not been told and having not received the secret from the other, from the fathers or the mothers, they eventually have to turn their gaze toward a simpler vexer of cinema which is the tel visual idea of cinema. it is all about people talking. and the three we were talking about. and these also in that way

reflected not only in cinema but in general. and i felt like rock 'n' roll the ultimate experience of an amazing-- energy that failed its promise but still sub versively is infusing with this beauty and erotocism con temp rarity. this contradiction that you could have both sides of the story in the same person was fascinating to me. and i'm not here to judge the fathers. but you know, as harry said in the film, we wanted to kill our fathers but they never taught about their sons and daughters. and that's what is the outcome in my opinion. >> did you have a similar idea where you kind of influenced. i mean that is a very powerful idea, that there were these generations. >> we come and i'm sorry to be talk tiff but we. >> as italian, we are coming off

of a long period of time in which the father was not the father of wisdom. the father of knowledge. it was the father of enjoyment. who tell, told us to go and enjoy and don't worry. but just enjoy. so harry in a way could be seen as the father of enjoyment. first of all for his ensco enjoyment. and what is the feedback that comes off of that. that was something that was interesting to me and i think harry is much more interesting than bellaconi. >> but in answer to your question, that is exactly the kind of conversation that not only fueled this film but all the work that i'm certainly developing with lu disz ca. this is the territory of that, of the work. it's very, very vibrant. >> well, i think, i mean i think that again is another we've been talking about the am beent or

hidden influences on this film. and i think that is another one. because i do think that even though it is a very specific story about these people in this place and their interactions, it does have an interesting kind of resonance. it is kind of feels like it grows bigger than them. >> this movie is secretly the remaining of voyage to italy more than the. >> and we have ingred beggarman. >> it has more t is sort of strombol i2. >> yes, that is excellent. i love that. i will go back and see it again with that in mind. a bigger splash opens in theaters on may 4th. and i i'm so glad it has brought you here and i'm so pleased.

thank you for giving me the chance to speak with luca and tilda and ralph. >> thanks for joining us. we'll see you next time. >> for more about this program line at pbs.org and charlieus rose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

>> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> on tomorrow's pbs newshour a harrowing look at the consequences when the mental health and criminal justice systems fail one troubled

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