. >> rose: welcome to the program. tonight a conversation with the comedian louis c.k. >> i knew that it was going to be such a strange road and i would do these counterintuitively. i didn't want to risk somebody else's money, i didn't think that was right. i didn't want to tell someone this is going to be a success and take it down a road-- . >> rose: were you convinced it would be a success. >> i still much. >> rose: you said it is the best thing you have ever done. >> it my favorite thing i have done, yes. >> rose: louis c.k. for the hour, next. funding for charlie rose is provided by the following: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and

information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: tell me about horace and pete. how did you come to this? >> it just-- i don't know it's in my head somewhere. i don't know. i got interested in doing a show that was like multicamera the way a sitcom was shot but without the audience, without the laugh track and without the need for the constant jokes, that tumping of jokes that comes have. because what you are left with is that live feeling. it's kind of like a multicamera drama or something. anyway, i kind of got the idea of a show that felt like that. >> rose: it is a drama. >> i think so, or something. i don't know, it's a show, it's a story. but-- . >> rose: what is the story. >> the guy is in a bar.

>> it's about a bar run by a guy named horace and a guy named pete and it was opened in 1916 in brooklyn by two brothers, horace and pete. and they each had a son, one named horace and one named pete. and they handed it to their sons named horace and pete. so the idea is that the bar has been run always by the same family, always owned by the family by a horace and pete, sometimes they have been brothers or cousins but always, it is like a lynn yaj, like a royalty. and so it has me and steve playing the current horace and pete. >> rose: it is a new form for you too, isn't it? >> yeah, very different from other things have i done before. >> rose: why this? why this. >> it just grabbed me. i just believed in it. as soon as i started writing it. to me, i have had a lot of ideas for different kinds of shows but there is this test that does it right. can you actually get out the script. and i started writing it this

summer. and it just kept coming. episode after episode. and i realized i'm writing something that is worth shooting. so i started to getting on producing it. >> rose: what about the actors, when you called up alan alda and steve bu scemi. >> steve called me to do a benefit for a firefighter thing. >> rose: you said i will do you a benefit but by the way. >> yeah, i happened to be writing it i wasn't sure where it was going yet. i had him on the phone, we are chatting. we're friends. i said do you want to do a show. a lot of things are timing in show business. because he had just come off borea borea empire-- boardwalk empire. but he had just come off this big shoavment i said what are do youing. he said nothing, i'm looking for stuff to do. i said do you want to do a series with me. and he said yeah, sure. i said we'll play brothers. he said yeah, okay. so once i had that in my head, we're the two brothers, i started writing. and i saw an article about eddie falco saying she is done with nurse jackie. >> rose: boom. >> she is one of my favorites. so i wrote her into it.

and then i was at the emmys and she was sitting with nobody next to her. so i just sat next to her and said i wrote a part for you in my new show. and she said okay. so she read it, and she wanted in. the writing is what attracts the people. if you don't write in a way that interests them, then they wouldn't be in it. >> rose: alan alda. >> allan asked me for the part. because i wrote his part for joe pesci who declined it. and then i was looking for somebody and alan's agent suggested him. i said i don't think he is the right part for it and she smartly said you should get somebody who you wouldn't expect to do it so alan really wanted the part. and he's great. so i thought he'll figure it out. so that was just-- that was a faith move. like you know, alan alda will find a way to make this work. >> rose: so you didn't roll this out with a lot of fan fare. >> no, no fan fare, yeah, the opposite. i made it a secret, yeah. >> rose: why that? >> cuz i found it really interesting the idea of, the way shows are presented to the audience, they tell you as much as possible ahead of time.

>> rose: right. >> because they want to-- they just want you to look at it. they don't care how it-- . >> rose: and by looking at it, you assimilate information about it. >> yeah, and they want you to see how it feels. and the way that-- who is in it. and what it sounds like. they want to show you as much as they can so that if it's the kind of thing you like, you'll take a look. but to me that feels backwards. in other words, it's like tasting something before you eat it, you know. it's like, you want to discover a thing and go i don't know what this is. >> rose: so you want what, you want the. >> i want them to know nothing and have no thoughts, no idea. they just know there's something there. >> rose: just jump in the river. >> yeah, just start watching. you should be a little disturbed when you start watching. like i don't know what this is. you should have this tension like i don't know what's going to happen. and then when it's all done, you go wow, that was really great. >> rose: i will come back for the next episode. >> yeah. and then when it's all done, with all ten of them, you go i'm really glad i watched it. i think-- after the first episode you wouldn't think that was great. you should think, i want to keep

watching. i don't understand what i am watching yet. that's what i want them to feel. then after two episodes i want them to feel like i still don't understand what i'm watching but i'm curious. and then after the third episode i think particularly this show, you go okay, i really like this, now i want to be watching it. and then when you get to ten, you go wow, you should say wow. but the thing is, the tv dk-- tv costs so much money to make, they need you-- they want you to say wow, i want to see that before you see it. again, that is backwards. you just start with nothing and get to wow. >> rose: and how do they pay for it. >> yeah, they have to pay for it through an intense-- intent to watch. they track the show. there is an intent to watch. or they hire people to be in the show that they think will-- . >> rose: i have a sense that you want to own stuff you do. >> only because then i can do-- -- then i don't have to-- when you ask somebody to fund something, you're asking them to take a risk with you.

i knew that horace and pete was going to be such a strange road and i would do things so count intuitively. i didn't want to convince other people, i didn't want to risk someone else's money. i didn't think that was right. i didn't want to tell someone this is going to be a succe and take it down a road-- . >> rose: were you convinced it would be a success. >> i still am wrz you said it's the best thing you have ever done. >> it's my favorite thing have i done. >> rose: favorite thing. >> i think it's the best work i have done, yeah, i think so. >> rose: but did you believe it would be a success? >> i didn't know either way. i didn't think of it that way. >> rose: do you care? >> yeah, i like people to see it i like tons of people to see it, i would. and also i would like to be able to do a show like this again. so if we can kind of train the audience into this motion. >> rose: what makes it unique, you can only get it through your website. >> that's right, yeah. you have to go on my website and buy it and download it. >> rose: you created a whole new model of people to deliver entertainment? >> i don't know. i don't know. i don't know if it will work for other people. i know how to make tv from nothing. >> rose: right. >> i know how to do all of it.

and then distribute it. >> rose: how do you know? >> well, i know how to produce television. i know how to-- i have a company. obviously it's not just me, i have people that work with me. but i know how to direct and write and produce. and edit. i know how to put the thing out. and then how to make-- my website was really created to sell tickets to my shows. and stand up specials that i did. >> rose: but that's a part of you wanting to own stuff and you liking to be in charge of the way you do things. you cut out the middle man. >> yeah, yeah. >> rose: you want them to deal with you. >> yeah, i like that part. i like ta part. >> rose: you do. >> yeah, fun. >> it's control and it also-- direct. it's a one-to-one thing. >> yeah, i think the one thing people thinked about, one of the things they liked about horas-- horace and pete is that they got an e-mail from me that i sent to them saying the next episode is ready. and then they went to my week site-- website, and they watched it. there is nothing else going on. and then they paid me money for their bit of money for each

episode. and then i went and made more. >> rose: so you self-financed it too. >> yeah, i pay for everything, yeah, yeah. >> rose: well. >> well, what's money for. >> rose: to spend on things you want to do. >> yeah, exactly. to me it's more interesting to do than to have it stored up somewhere, sitting, accruing interest. i could be dead tomorrow, you know. >> rose: exactly. and if you leave money for any reason, you can go out and. >> i could go on the road. >> so far, you know. some day, you always get check mated. you always have to know that at some point one or two things could go wrong and suddenly you're really screwed. >> rose: it's back to whatever. >> but everybody lives that way. >> rose: you created this. what's the creation process for you? i mean you decided that this bar. >> yeah. >> rose: and you lover the idea. and the drama. >> so i thought about a family. and they own a place together which means people work an live in the same place. i mean in other words, you go, you live with people, and then you work with them. and then you can't escape them which is what family feels like. family, i is something you can't

escape. but this relationship you can't get out of. >> rose: this is not cheers. >> no, no, not at all. not even close. >> rose: i know. >> it looks like it if you have the sound off, for two minutes. even with the sound off you would be like jeez, this' not cheers at all. it gets very down. it is funny in moments. it's very surprising and startling in moments. but yeah, so the creative process is like you create the people and the world. and then you see if it writes. if you can sit down and write. and it just flowed. i believed in the people. they felt real to me. >> rose: so it poured out. >> yeah. >> rose: where do you start, episode by episode it pours out. >> yeah, some things come out that way. and this one did too. every episode i would sit down and would just be writing. i put the people in the rooms in my head and have them talk to each other. and it's like i'm hearing it and quickly copying it down like a citizennographer or court reporter, is that what a court person-- that's what it feels like. and then when it's over i stop

and go oh my god, that was crazy. and then i read it, that's pretty good. and i've got one done. >> rose: okay, but how much editing do you do, is it pretty much a string of consciousness when you do it or do you simply hammer it. >> a lot of it happens ahead of time. that's when i get an episode written, when i sit down and write it, before i write it i walk around, driving myself crazy thinking about it. i do all the carving up here. and i know what's going to happen. i think about what it means in each interaction and what direction it's going to go. i think about all of that for a long time. it's like being pregnant and finally i regurgitate it on to the page. then after that, maybe right before we shoot, like we do a rehearsal for a whole day we rehearse the show over and over again. and then i will look at it and go maybe there are a few things can change. i usually keep the dialogue all the same, there is an integrity to that, like how you first wrote it. but i might cut or add things. but i don't change the little lines inside.

i feel like that feels like tampering. >> rose: how is it different than writing standup? >> well, standup i don't sit down and write it. i just go on stage-- . >> rose: but you have to think about what you are going to say. >> but i just write one word on a piece of paper about the subject, just to remind myself that there is an idea there. but i work it out-- it's the spoken word. so it's better not to prepare withstandup. it's better to let the first audience that you stel the tory to, be the-- they pull it out of you, by the way they listen. >> rose: so you listen to them and you may add to it. >> yeah, they will tell you how interesting it is. >> rose: is that what you are doing now, working on another standup routine and the small clubs teach you, inform you. >> what is working and what is not. >> rose. >> that's right, yeah. >> rose: do you find a lot of stuff you think might work you have to-- you got to know a little bit more than them. if you are just showing them what they want to see, there is something-- very satisfying and boring about that. an audience will come and see you again and again is because

you really surprise them. if you make people like something they didn't expect to like, to me that's real gold. >> rose: that's a great gold. >> that's what you want, yeah. >> rose: have them like something. >> that they never thought they would like. have them go that's so great. i never would have expected that to be something i would like. >> rose: tell me about the episode, episode seven i think it was, about a transgender. >> yeah. >> rose: die log, the dialogue is fabulous. >> oh, thank you. >> rose: you know, you wrote it. >> yeah, well. >> rose: tell me about. >> well, that's-- . >> rose: any reason not to tell me. >> no, i'm just trying to think what to say about it. when i wrote that i didn't expect that to happen in that story. to me that story was about a-- it was about horace confesses something to her first. >> rose: right. >> about his life. something very shocking. >> right. to me that is what that scene was about, initially. that's why i rout wrote the scene. >> because they have a one-night stand.

>> right. >> so they have an intimacy, an immediate intimacy. and then the next morning they don't want to look at each other. which is how people sometimes feel in the morning. >> right, yes. >> but he invites her to sit down and have some eggs. she says i don't want to be here. he says i don't want you here. so they have-- they're safe with each other because they both know that they don't want anything, they don't want to see each other again. >> they can be more truthful. >> that's what it is. a weird, like more truthful than it is with someone they have a future with. >> right. >> so she asks horace about his life and he has a very shocking detail about his life. and he just goes ahead and tells her. because it was easy to tell her. and to me that's what i sat down to write. >> rose: yeah. >> and then i had her tell a joke. he says i mean you're not going to be able to air this but he says you have a nice-- she says yeah, i put myself where my-- used to be. and i just have her tell that joke. you are not going to be able to use that, but she makes this

joke and he laughs and then i felt like i was in the room with them. i felt like-- what if she's not kidding. what if she's kidding but she wants to toy with him more on the subject. and then i just, they just-- and i just started to trade lines down this road. that he finds himself in this situation. and then she's interested in talking about this. >> rose: and he wants wants to w who has he slept with. >> did he sleep with someone who used to be a man. and he says well, if i was transgender, wouldn't that mean i am a woman? aren't we all saying that when someone becomes trans, transgender, i am told 50/50 by people which one you are supposed to say, that is a woman. caitlyn jenner is a woman now. >> rose: right. >> with all the rights of a woman and the yes and hooray, she's a woman. >> rose: right. >> and it's not polite to say

that's bruce jenner in a dress or bruce jenner who got an operation. that's a woman, caitlyn jenner a woman. so if caitlyn jenner sleeps with a man, does she have to tell him i used to be bruce jenner. i think that's a really interesting, unresolved-- for the average person without doesn't think about this kind of stuff all the time, which is what horace is, in the he show, that's who i am playing. a guy who just has a myopic view, that is a really unchartered wilderness. so i put him in that wilderness with somebody who has a little bit more-- although she, i don't know in the end, i don't know if she's transgender or not, the character. i still don't know. i don't know. i don't know. horace doesn't know. >> rose: but she says to him. >> what if i was. >> rose: she says to him at the end, you know, i'm a woman. you slept with a woman. >> right, and he goes one more time, who always was one. and she goes-- so still don't know, still don't know. and i also think that horace is

excited by the ambiguity. >> rose: really. >> yeah, he likes it. >> i think horace is a little bit turned on by not knowing what or who, what happened. >> rose: whether he slept with a woman or a man. >> i think he is excited about it shall-- especially by her command of being able to stand on that shaky line, she's exciting him by toying with him. that's what happened in the scene. but i'm telling you all this from having watched it. when i wrote it, i didn't know what was going on. >> rose: see that's amazing me. you didn't have any idea. >> i really didn'tment then what-- what would he say. and then he says-- and then what would she say, and she says this. and i'm like oh my god, that's so crazy that she said that. horace would ask this question. and then they just sort of talk, they talked in my head and i wrote it down. that's what it felt like anyway. it doesn't always feel that way. >> rose: tell me who horace is. >> he's, you know, nothing, he's just a nothing guy. he is a guy who can't-- he has no agency.

like he doesn't have a thrurs in life. you know, the greatest generation and all those guys. >> rose: right. >> and even the vietnam veterans and the baby boomers, they all have these terrific names to their generations. and they had, they either had to overcome something or they had to create something. but then our guys, i was called generation x, so that's like a nothing. and so a lot of us, we didn't want to be cool like our parnlts were, or we didn't want to hate our kids so we didn't know what to do, a lot of us. i-- we didn't want to be cruel or hit our kids lick our parents were. but i feel like i'm a good parent, i have an idea of what pit is to be a citizen or whatever. i thought it was more interesting to write a guy who doesn't know what the hell to do and doesn't know even how to care about it. but the show is really about-- . >> rose: you're not writing about yourself. >> there are parts of me in

horace. >> rose: which part. >> you know, he moves a little bit slow and he's a bit of a shlu b. that is me in some level. >> rose: do you think of yourself that way at all. >> yeah, sure. >> rose: do you really snns. >> you know, in life, my gut is hanging out of my t-shirt half the time. i will put ice cream on my chest like tony soprano and eat and watch shark tank. >> rose: this is just fastityiousness. >> yeah, that is who everybody is. i'm an ordinary guy, horace is ordinary. >> rose: do you really think of yourself as an ordinary guy. >> sure, yeah, hell yeah. >> rose: with all the creativity you have expressed to all of us. >> yeah, that's-- . >> rose: your passion to dk-- tell a story. >> bawz i'm an ordinary guy that i think i can tell a story about an ordinary guy. you have to be one. you can't-- . >> rose: but you love language too. >> yeah, i do. >> rose: i know you do. >> yeah. >> rose: i was laughing out loud reading the whole thing about amazing. >> yeah, yeah. >> rose: the use of the word

amazing. so what are you going to do when somebody has a really amazing experience. >> you have to have some sense of turning the volume up and down. >> rose: that's a perfect way to express it. >> yeah. you can't just go for the top every time. >> rose: there's a quote from gary shankedling. the world is just too noisy and distracking to ultimately survive. everybody has to shut the-- up, the answer is in the silence to set themselves on fire to make this point, just consider it, what does that quote mean to you. >> gary wrote that to me in an e-mail. >> rose: i know. >> and it was-- he wrote that to me a few weeks before he died. >> rose: just a few weeks. >> yeah, maybe a couple of weeks before he died. and. >> rose: unexpectedly. >> he was a great friend. and he was the kind of guy i could talk to him for hours and then we never had enough time. like we talked for four hours and my mouth would get all dry talking to gary and i would get a headache because i want want to drink water or do anything to stop talking to him. and then it would be over, you know. and we would have to part company. so-- . >> rose: i always thought

about him. he came to my show. i always thought about him as god, i wish he was doing something right now. >> yeah, yeah. >> rose: you know? >> i know what you mean. >> rose: he was that good. >> hes with one of the best ever. >> rose: i know. >> yeah. one of the greats. >> rose: and why the hell is he, you boo ask yourself. >> yeah. well, he gave a lot. he gave a lot of great standup. and his series, a lot of tv has been built on the back of that series. >> rose: exactly writeness a lot of people don't remember that. >> rose: he was terrific when he substituted for carson. >> that's right. i showed the first episode of larry sanders to my 14 year old daughter after he died, and she loved it. and it was fresh. and she watches like 30 rock and new shows. and this show was just right up against them. and it begat them, you know. >> rose: yeah. the role in this is very much of a guy who listens. he is a listener. >> yeah, yeah. i mean horace is very quiet. and he doesn't talk much.

and part of that is because i wanted to be able to effectively direct the show and do it without-- . >> rose: you didn't want to have many lines. >> i didn't want a lot of lines, also look at the cast, eddie falco and steve and alan and jessica lang, these are all better-- these people are all better than me, they are all better actors than me. >> rose: you are right about that. >> yeah, for sure. so i wanted to give them a platform and be there as a sounding board. >> rose: you have been doing some acting. are you surprised, you seem like a natural. >> i mean i strie to hope i am. i know i own a lot of ticial moments on screen that i can't take back, including on this show. because i'm a little-- i'm a bit of a-- i'm stiff. i'm not really-- towards the end of hors a and pete the feelings about the show were so real to me, i really felt like pete was my brother. and so when hard things happen to pete, i got very upset. and. >> rose: because you created him. that's the amazing thing, you created horace and pete and the other characters. >> then i got involved like i

was in the family. >> rose: like you were there. >> yeah, when the show, when we shot the last episode, i was very-- i couldn't-- it took me awhile to recover from it. i never had an experience like that. because i didn't have to act, i didn't have to conjure something from my past or figure out how to get there. i was just very upset for real. and all of us, we traded e-mails me and alan and edie and steve, traded e-mails. >> rose: saying what? >> saying that we are in withdrawal and that we were upset. that it was hard to walk away from the show. and it was hard how it ended. >> rose: does it have to end. >> no, not necessarily, no. but the season is over. >> rose: i know the season is. >> the story that we told is over. it is a ten-part-- it's like a ten-act play, that is what horace and pete is. it's more like a ten act play than a series. the thing with a series, when you write series television, you have to keep everything in tact all the time. you have to keep all the balls in the air. so you can't really have anything big happen or big be said because then you can't take

that back. every show has to reset, you know. tv has this thing where it shows up at your house like a vacuum cleaner salesman and it makes a mess on the floor. but they got to clean it up before they leave. >> rose: yes. >> tv is supposed to leave you the way it found you, you know what i mean. that way you will want to watch it the next week forever it is a perp teuity thing. but so the idea was this show was to write something where every week it will take a piece out of you. it's going to leave you a little bit broken. and you will go like how the hell are they going to keep doing this. well, we don't have to keep doing it. i didn't have to make more than three if i didn't want to. >> rose: what is the level of satisfaction from this, level of satisfaction from this compared to the other stuff you do? can you even judge it, weigh it. >> no, i can't. because this was so personal and it felt so real to me and it was so satisfying. >> rose: and a new direction too. >> brand new thing. the bring that is so fun is to learn a thing you've never done before and do it really well. i have never done a show like

this. none of us had. nobody had. nobody had made a show, it was closer to saturday night live than it was to a sitcom because we had to throw it together and have it up on the site. we shot it wednesday and thursday and had it up on the site saturday morning. so it was a very quick-- . >> rose: but all the episodes had been written before you started shooting. >> except we did things about current events because it was a bar and i thought people at bars talk about what is going on at the news. so if they could talk about what was actually in the news. that is why we shot it so close to the air date. but the satisfying-- nobody had figured out how to do that. i invented a way to direct the show where we could get it up quicker. >> rose: what was that. >> it was color coding with the cameras and stuff. it was a thing that was tricky to figure out. but it was also fun, you know. >> rose: here is what i hear. you write standup the best. acting and getting-- not only good reviews but also more and more roles. you're now a director. >> yeah. >> rose: you are now a producer. >> yeah. >> rose: you have mounted this

whole thing. >> yeah. >> rose: do you come to some sense, i can pretty much do whatever i want? >> well, there are a million things i can't do yet, but thank god, you know. you want to keep trying-- you want to get-- it's like if you are in the army, a friend of mine was in the army back in the '80s. >> rose: yeah. >> late '80s. and so he took his little practice toon, he was a sergeant and go let's go to jump school. let's all just go to jump school. and they go for, he was a, what do you call it, reserve. so on his weekends, instead of sitting around playing ping pong they go to jump school. and then they have a patch for jumping. and then they go hey, let's go to medic school. so they all got rated as medics. and they got this big big bunch of patches. unfortunately then war broke out and he was sent right to the front. look at all these skills you have. we need you. >> exactly. >> so he had to do all this stuff. >> but it is like being a boy scout. >> and then all of a sudden you can do that. you know, like what's the movie,

matrix. >> matrix, yeah. when there say helicopter and he says to her, you know how to play helicopter. she goes wait a minute and loads the program. now i do. well, anyone can do that. it just takes longer. you can just load a program. so now i know how to create a multicamera drama and mount it the same week that i shot it. and how to direct many great actors which i had never done before. >> exactly. >> i rest my case. >> yeah. >> you never did it. >> never did it. and are you doing who knows what is good bad. >> yeah. >> so yeah, you just open yourself to the thing and you go i've done other things. >> you say i'm going to go do this. >> you start to get at this, instead of being able to say i've done this before. >> yeah. >> you say to yourself, i haven't done this before. >> but have i seen it done. >> but i've done other things i haven't done before, before. and it came out okay. so i'm not afraid of this. and also if this doesn't go well, what's the big thing that can happen. >> the big deal. >> exactly.

>> some will say it didn't work. >> the thing that you learn the most that will help you do things you can't do yet is how to recover from failure. if you can recover from things not going well, then the worst that happens is this is going to be a total wreck but i know how to recover. >> yeah. >> i know how to be okay after i wasn't. >> somebody once said to me don't worry about it because you always have your talt ent. you can do something else. >> that's right, yeah. you always find something else to do. that is another thing about getting all these different skills. if i wash out in every possible way, i can go right for somebody's sitcom, you know. quietly i could just write. >> rose: let's look at the other side. are you doing everything and are you doing all of them well. what is it building to? >> in the end-- . >> rose: what journey is it? >> it's one show at a time and one-story at a time. so i'm not trying to be some like guy who can do all of these things. i really wanted to tell this story about horace and pete and his family, and this is how to do it, so let's learn how to do

it. >> rose: this is learning on the job. >> that's right. so what is building towards and whatever story i come up with that i want to tell, that's all. >> rose: directing this different from directing louis? >> so different, yeah. cuz it was indoors in a studio, all day. >> rose: that is what directing is. >> that's right. louis was single camera which means that you shoot little pieces. >> right. >> and you sew them together through the magic of editing. this thing we shot like 20 pages without stopping. we did it like a play. we let people feel like they were at a play performance. so we didn't-- so it was about rehearsing and preparing and then just letting it happen. it's a completely different kind of directing. >> rose: i will bet you all of these experiences have show said to you why don't i try a broadway play. >> yeah, i would love to do that. i have to write it though. if i write a play, then i will definitely try to go make it, yeah.

>> rose: so is writing in the end what you are, a writer? >> i think that's probably what i'm best at, besides the standup. i'm a comedian since i was 18. and i never stopped being one. and-- . >> rose: but you said i didn't get good until i was in my 40st. >> that's right. that is how long it takes. it is, it takes a good 30 years to get good at it. so yeah, i only got good at it recently. >> rose: you are now 4, so you have been good for five years. >> been about five years that i have been worth watching, yeah. i think so. and that's the thing i can claim i put in my years withstandup. and i put in the work and i made the sacrifice, a lot of hard years. and that's why i can do it now. writing would be secretary. have i been writing-- . >> rose: stand-up, then writing, acting. >> directing, i think acting is the last. if i had to drop one, it would be acting. >> rose: why? >> because i'm not the best at it. and i'm not great at it. can i do it. i can do it.

i know how to do it. i love doing it, it's superfun. you're good, you know how to do it but you're not the best at it. >> i'm not the best at it and i haven't put as much of a commitment into it, you know. you got to do one thing all the time to be great at it. that's why i'm going on the roads now for a year. i'm clearing the decks. i'm not doing any productions. because i haven't been as good as standup as i was in like 2008 to 10. >> rose: does that eat at you? >> yeah, it bothers me. >> rose: i would be bothered if i knew how good i was and knew i wasn't performing that well. >> it's an awful feeling, i feel like i'm betraying the audience and the thing i'm doing. i did three years or four years where all i did was standup and i would go and tour and make a special. i wasn't doing anything else. and i think that's the best i ever was, between my 2011 and now, i would put out a few specials that i'm very proud of. and i did my best but i-- i would have been better if i wasn't making television while i

did those specials. >> rose: did you get to the point where you knew you were the best at standup anywhere period? >> no, i mean that's subjective. some people hate what i do. they don't like it, it's not their thing, you know. plenty of people. it depends who your favorite comedian is. i'm some people's favorite comedian. and i think i'm as good at doing it like in terms of, i'm as good as anybody in terms of-- . >> rose: you can't compare standup, can you? >> i don't think. so i think it's just as hard as comparing people, you know. certainly artwork isn't really quawl taitive. i know a ton about standup. and i know how to do it as well as anybody that exists. >> rose: did you study it. >> yeah, by watching it and doing it over and over and over again. i have been on stage some millions every times, probably in my life. it's a constant, constant thing. and if i don't do it for like two weeks, when i go back i'm not as good again. have i to shall-- you have to gear up. >> rose: other than being a father. >> yeah. >> rose: are you happiest on stage in. >> it's hard to say. i do love i love being on stage.

i love shooting things. i love being on a set and shooting. i love the feeling of exhaustion at the end of a long, a lot of work. and feeling like walking away, there are days where i walked away from horace and pete, i just walk home every day. and i would go damn, i was a homerun today. like i feel like i hilt a homerun. that was a good feeling. i'm happiest sometimes when i'm out on a beach or in the water, you know, or out in nature. i don't know, those are hard to compare. those are all big happies. but being a dad is the best. >> rose: i think it was "the new yorker" that said comedians are populist. >> yeah, maybe. >> rose: yeah, i guess we talk like other people. we don't talk like "the new yorker." >> rose: you don't talk down to them. >> no, we talk like other people talk. >> rose: that is part it of it, so they identify with you. >> yeah, yeah, that's where i learned, just from talking. and that's when i'm able to be a

little more social i come up with more material. >> rose: is what makes you laugh, what makes the audience laugh sh. >> yeah, sometimes. but i'm working really hard for their laughs so i'm usually not laughing. >> rose: is that it, you're working. >> yeah, it's hard work. >> rose: this is hard work, i'm fun as hell. >> but when they laugh and when you know it is so genuine, it's payoff time, yeah, i love that feeling, sure. >> and it makes you better, to feel it. >> yeah. >> what is cringeworthy mean? >> i don't know, it's a new word. >> rose: what does it mean. >> i don't know. i guess that people that are talking about things that make you go oh my god, that's cringing, right? >> rose: i think that's what they mean. >> but to me that territory, a cringe is a-- it's repelling away from something. so it's like an area you don't want to think about. i don't want to think about that. to me its' fun to take a deep breathe. >> rose: and. >> which is the opposite of a cringe and walk in there and see

what's in there. >> that is the essence of you. >> i think so. >> rose: that really is. >> look, if you can make people take a whole zone of their thinking, that they are scared of, and you can make them take a breathe and go in there and have a good time, i think that's a positive. >> rose: gq said there is nothing, nothing he can't and won't demystify or decinema didadvertise. >> yeah, i think that say worthy thing to try to do, yeah. yeah, man, i mean-- . >> rose: comedy makes you think about things in a different way. >> yeah. comedy can make-- . >> rose: think about things in a different way. >> yeah, sure. >> rose: like we are talking about. >> i think so. i think it is a compact humans have always made is we want to be able to laugh about stuff that is upsetting us. it's part of it and then everybody gets upset sometimes. and they all go how could we make such jokes. this is a terrible thing. but in the end, we always choose the humor. that's why comedy is always

stayed in there. once in a while everybody say this is wrong to talk about these things and you shouldn't joke about bad things or hurting things. >> rose: but you. >> we all clang a bell because that's part of the process. i accept that. it's okay that people do that. because it's part of it. you say that to yourself once in a while because it lets you off the hook. i tweeted to everybody that i thought that joke was inappropriate. then later you can laugh at a joke that is inappropriate, you know, that way you get to have it both ways. >> rose: are there places you won't go. will not go? >> only if it's not funny or it's boring. >> rose: that's it. >> yeah, or somebody else has been there heavily, then i won't go there usually because it's boring. yeah, only if it's boring. but i don't-- i remember saying one time that saying this joke is too awful-- saying that something is too terrible to joke about. >> rose: right. >> is like saying that a disease is too terrible to try to cure it. i mean that's what you do with awful things. you joke about them, that's how you get through it.

it's how you survive life. >> rose: that's the only way you can talk about. >> you say that's so terrible, i can't joke about it, that is totally counterintuitive to me. like if it's that awe solve-- awful you better start joke being it. >> rose: where is truth in comedy? >> it's not always there. i think lying is an effective way to get laughs. >> rose: yeah. >> sure. lying is like magic. >> rose: withness there are so many lies. >> rose: if it takes lying, then let's lie. >> there are so many lies in my act. have i so many stories that i really convinced them that it's true. and that's why they're laughing. like this really happened, man. and that makes them laugh. because i'm sharing something. but it's riddled with lies. and in the details, in the where i say it happened, how many of each thing, i lie all the time just to make stories interesting. you know. all the numbers, all the stats in a joke. yeah, yeah. forget it man. >> i'm not sure i'm disappointed

in this or not. you wouldn't want to hear an honest version of my ak, it would be really bland. >> rose: because it makes it more powerful, interesting, more compelling, more surprising, more eck sielting. >> that's right. funnier. >> rose: i'm still surprised at jokes, where does it start? is it just an idea, i wonder if? >> uh-huh. yeah, or like a moment like you live, you know, jokes on different forms, observations, like i have this thing that happened. or this is what people are like. or an absurd story. so sometimes a thing will happen and i will go that's a bit. sometimes stuff is in my head for years before i recognize why have i never talked about this on stage. >> rose: give me an example of that. >> well, like there's a new bit have i been doing about when are you in an e-mail fight and you write an e-mail, you know, when you are e-mailing back and forth which is really those long e-mails where you say in june

when i told you that i had this issue and you promised to be sensitive. >> yes w. >> you know and you work on the e-mail for a long time like are you beethoven and going deaf and you just do it. then you send it to a friend and you say what do you think. this is a new pon. then they do a draft. e-mail and they tell you i would take this out cuz it seems a little excessive. so then you send it to somebody else who lets you put that back inment and you work on it for a long time with all this collaboration. and then you send it, and then you realize you left the sentence at the top that say this is the latest draft what you think. i've done that before and i have had that humiliation. >> yes. >> of letting the person that you are in a real fight with know that you have writers, you have a team of people work on the e-mail. anyway, that has happened to me a number of times. and i thought about it only a week ago i thought jeez, i don't know why i haven't told that story on stage. >> and now you will. >> i have been, i have been doing it on stage and it's killing. >> rose: you are doing it on stage and people love it.

>> yeah. >> rose: they can identify. >> they found out that they have. i found out that they have, by telling the story. >> rose: but now, take that, that story, how were you shaping it and changing it and refining it and sculpting it. >> okay, is so there are a bunch of places in there that work on it, right. like there is this thing about when i say e-mail fight, there is the difference between a text fight, a text fight is like screw you. i hate you. i hate you too. that is how we got there. e-mail fight the first laugh is always when i say when i wrote you in june and show people just know what that means and i describe all of that stuff. so all the little details will get bigger and bigger. and i will find more and more little things in it. >> you're not going to tell me whether you are going to do another episode, another series of louis, you don't know yet. >> yeah, i don't know, i really don't. >> what will make the difference again? >> if i find if i crash into it is a thing that i'm really dieing to do again. i have to be wanting to do it. i didn't want to make a show because there's a show and have

i to keep doing it. that is not a great reason to make a show. >> rose: especially if you are you. >> i think some of i think i can't honestly keep making episodes of that show just because it was doing well and it's fair. i did it as long as i could because i was very grateful to the people that gave me the show. cuz i'm not the only person. i'm like the center of all theels people and then these people and i'm in here. so all these people that i work for, that gave me the shot, i wanted to pay them off as long as i could. and once we were getting emmys and stuff, that means a lot to them. so i note that as long as i couldment and all the people that work for me, that make a living working on my show. >> right. >> it was very hard to tell them you're all fired. and tell all these people, i quit. that's very hard to do. that's a lot of pressure. >> rose: and how did you get up the nerve to do it? >> i didn't have a choice. i did it when i finally was like i can't do this. so and also because i don't work for these guys, make zack's show, pamela's show, and these

people all work with me on horace and pete and they will work elsewhere. but between each thing they are like what, where did it go? >> rose: would you have any interest of create building a creative factory. >> that is kind of what my company is. >> rose: that is exactly what it is. >> we make a lot-of-stuff. we make a animated show with, better things, baskets, a big hit, and say a show on amazon. so we make a lot of shows. >> rose: politics. >> yeah. >> rose: donald trump. >> oh, jesus christ. oh, god. >> rose: why did you launch into that? >> that was really dumb. >> rose: because you felt a threat to your country. >> yeah, god. >> rose: you went pretty far, didn't you? >> yeah, i did. that was a lot. that was so much. i said so much. >> rose: you really did. >> uh-huh. never has anyone said so much about something of which they

know so little. >> rose: but did you want to real it back or you don't care? >> i mean you live with what you say. you say it and you live with it. >> rose: after you said it. >> i was like oh boy, after i wrote it. the secretary after i sent it i was like. >> rose: did you really? >> my daughter-- i told my daughter, my ten year old. >> rose: you told her. >> i didn't read it but i told her basically what it was. >> rose: you compared him to a very evil guy. >> she said they're going to-- you're going to get-- you're going to get killed on this, my ten year old daughter. she said they're never going to top bugging. they have it's not a big deal. >> rose: and i'm bringing it up. >> that's fine. that's all right. i think the thing, especially presidential politics, it's every four years. >> rose: i know. >> we have this -- >> rose: obsession. >> it is a discussion, it's very important. it's like a family thing. it's like a famy thing. it's like a family decision, the way people take it. it's very personal. it's like a member of-- it's like if you had an election in

your family, living as a family and you had an election, is mom or dad going to be in charge for the next four years. or is brother, is our brother did going to take dad's spot, which is what it felt like to me when clinton won it. felt like our brother took over tor dad, you know. or-- . >> rose: he was one of us. >> or maybe three of your siblings brought some woman that you don't know to the house and said she's-- we're going to replace mom with her. and we have the votes to do it. and you go what? the amount of anger an passion that an election in your family would have shall-- . >> rose: that's what we are doing right now. >> that is what it is like. it's very emotional. it's not a rational thing. it's not based on, you know, picking somebody to do a job. it's based on how we all feel and what we want to say to the rest of the world. and what we're afraid of. and you know what i mean, it's a big deal. so i am an american citizen. >> rose: yes, you are.

congratulations. >> yeah, so whoever is president affects pie life like it does everybody else. a vote is a personal thing and it is a personal right. but your vote also affects everybody else. so it's a really tricky thing. and i think the thing about american politics is that it's always going to be a big messy fight. that is what democracy is. like people would feel more united and at peace if we were all being oppressed by one, you know, government. then everybody gets along better. but when we're all trying to decide and we're all very distant from each other, it's a big, ugly, difficult fight. >> rose: democracy is ugly. >> yeah, it's really, really, it's painful. so. >> rose: things have gotten really ugly this year. >> yeah, i think we always say that. but i think that is true. this one is really, really-- this one, there is a lot of pain involved. and i was feeling a lot of fear. and i wrote my little e-mail saying horace and pete's episode, whatever it was that week, i think it was six, is ready for download.

enjoy. i got to go back to sleep. i was actually in bed. i was going to go back to sleep because my kids are coming in a few hours. i wanted a little nap. and then i wrote ps. and all i meant to write was stop with the trump. just stop it it's not funny any more. that is all i was going to write. and i sat there and i looked at it and i was like well, cuz this, and also, and the thing is this, and this and this and this, and i wrote this mall ig nant tumor of a thing, this wasp nest of thought. and i sent it to my nom. -- mom, she said sure, send it. >> rose: you sent it to her for approval. she said go ahead and send it. i hate to put her on the spot but she said sure. >> rose: sure. >> i was like, and there is part of me. >> rose: was this late at night. >> it was saturday morning. >> rose: saturday morning, okay, go ahead. >> and so i sent it. and it was-- it is a very weird thing. because i'm sending it to just people on my e-- e-mail

subscription list, but then it's on twitter and secretaries and it's-- i mean i knew that more people would read it than who i sent it to. and i figured a few people would go oh, the guy is a jerk. and i knew that whatever, i was like whatever. let's just see what happens. and then it is in every news publication in the world. >> rose: yes. >> and the more it grew, the more i was like oh goddammit, why did i do this to myself. like this is-- this is so dumb. and then all these things that i kind of just thought, they are just feelings i had. and they were, some of them contradicted each other. some of them were like jeez, i don't know this, jeez, i don't know this. but then all of a sudden there is just this weight and this price being put on the thing and words being tested. and none of them hold up because it was just one guy talking with a beer in his hand, just a guy-- you know what i mean, it was just my opinion at the moment about the election. and it was based on some big feelings. and i stand by some of it.

>> rose: you compared him to hitler. >> yeah, yeah, sure, not hitler when he was done, you know i mean. >> rose: i know. >> that is not a fair comparison for anybody. >> rose: when he was coming up. >> in his rookie years. >> rose: and you said what? >> yeah, exactly. well, i guess i feel like there's a similar dynamics, yeah, i guess so. i guess i feel that way. and i did then. and you know. >> rose: you haven't changed. >> no, i think-- i think it's a scary time. and i don't-- and i don't think you can shall-- every time somebody terrible comes along and then we kill them and then we say there will never be another one of those. and we say that guy was from another planet, that wasn't a human being. humans don't make people like that. he came from an egg. that guy was hatched from an egg. and so as long as we don't hatch people from eggs, we won't have any of those. well no, he had a mommy and he had a daddy. and he was a baby. and he played. >> rose: he went to school.

>> he went to school, he had friends. you know, all-- whoever i am describing, he's done all these things. he's been nurtured by parents. he's been a good friend to somebody somewhere. he has listened to somebody who needed to be listened to. and then this thing builds and then he ended up, all these terrible things that he did and happened through him. you know what i mean. so i don't know. i don't know that i would-- if i had to to do over again say all that. >> rose: about trump again. >> look, i think trump is more from my world than is he from politics, you know. he is my -- he is one of us. is he a showbiz guy. >> rose: he is an entertainer. >> he is an entertainer so i feel like we're responsible for him, all of us. >> rose: i hear this making its way into your routine. >> i don't think so. i think have i said everything i need to say about donald trump, jesus clies. yeah, i don't know. i mean here's where i-- i felt a little bit bad because a lot of people got mad at me. and they said just shut up.

just shut your mouth. don't tell me-- you know, a lot of times when you say-- don't tell me what tho think, right, i'm not telling anybody what to think. i'm expressing myself during an election year. >> rose: you are telling them what you think. >> yeah, that's right. but i did come into their lives through the funny ha ha door and then i took a big political, serious-- on their table. so i get being irritated, i get it i get it. i get why people would be irritated with my having written that. it's not what i do best. it's not what i am known for. it's not what i am asked about, you know what i mean. i mean if you invited somebody to your house because you knew they were funny and fun and said all this stuff, you would be like, what are you doing to me. so i get why people got irritated. it's interesting to me, a lot of liberals got mad because i suggested that maybe conservatives and liberals have equal value. and that they should each have a shot at running government. i mean that's just the way that i was raised. i came from mexico when i was a little kid, i lived in mexico.

and i remember coming to america and discovering it. as a little boy from another country. and the idea of democracy and free speech was just an incredible thing to me. and still, i look at it with wide open eyes am i'm very innocent that way. and the way i look at the world is that i feel a certain way about how the country should be run. but not everybody feels the way i do. so when there's enough of me, to push the election over to our side, we get a president for awhile. but the other side who feels differently than i do, they should get an equal shot. because it's not all my country. it's a lot of people's country, you know what i mean. >> rose: of course i do. >> so democracy shouldn't-- some people think democracy means i always get things the way i want them. well, i don't look at it that way. democracy means sometimes i'm really frustrated with the way the government works. then i know it's working right. that's the way i look at it. and in in my 40st so to me obama is a liberal. he is a liberal president. to some people he is an arch, is

he a huge conservative. it depends how you look at it. everybody looks at it differently. but i don't think trump is any of these things. i think trump is a guy who will dismantle the actual process. that's the only reason i said some things. i'm not known for making political statements. i have never done this before. have i no track record of running my mouth politically. >> rose: will you do it again. >> no, i probably won't. but the reason i did in this case was because this isn't about i believe in the liberal cause and i want a liberal. it was because this guy feels like he could chuck it all a what. and he's even saying he wants to. he is saying he wants to make it that you can sue people for writing something you didn't like, you know, it's insane. so anyway, i shouldn't have said even what i said now. but-- . >> rose: but you did want i shouldn't have written it. i'm sorry. apologize. >> rose: you don't mean that. >> no, not at all, no. >> rose: can i just talk about family for a moment. >> sure. >> rose: the kids are older now. do they laugh at you? >> yeah, they do. we laugh together, you know, we

all laugh together. different ways. the ten year old is a jof yal, fun laughing. and the 14 year old, we talk about all kinds of stuff and we laugh about life together. she reads a lot, she's very intelligent kid. and she's very curious. and thoughtful. so we have a lot to talk about. it's great. it's the greatest part of life. >> rose: talking to your kids. >> yeah, and being-- the thing about being with your why kids. you don't have to be do anything. you could be at the dmv or waiting in line at the grocery store and you're having a good time. >> rose: and have they seen horace and pete? >> yeah, they-- my oldest came to the taping of the last episode and it was really something to have her there. they are bored by what i do. which is probably a good thing. they have their own tv that they watch. and sometimes i will be like a what shall-- there san episode of my show that's like appropriate. an they're like rather watch, you know, portlandia or gravity falls, toesbergers.

very popular show with them. >> rose: my last question is theres with eye time in i with you weren't going to do another episode of louis. i think it may have been between four and five. >> yeah, i took a break, yeah. >> rose: and then all of a sudden you have a thought. >> yeah. >> rose: and it seizes you. >> right. >> rose: so all of a sudden you have another series. >> that's right. >> rose: so what might happen having to do with louis or anything else, some idea just grabs you. >> then i got to do it, yeah. no matter what it takes. >> rose: thank you. >> thanks, charlie, pleasure. same here. always. always. >> for more about this program and earlier episodes visit us online at pbs.org and charlie rose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications

captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org >> rose: on the next charlie rose, a conversation with the president of yoont united staises, barack obama recorded in germany. >> if we're going to solve problems like syria, if we're going to make progress in yemen

where we now have a cessation oe gcc countries to not necessarily trust iran but at least open up a dialogue and a channel with them where interests of both sides can be met and we can reduce the sectarianism that unfortunately is feeding a lot of the violence in the middle east. >> rose: fup funding for charlie rose is provided by the following: and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news an information services worldwide. >> you're watching

this is "nightly business report" with tyler mathisen and sue herera. let's make a deal. the justice department clears a cable mega merger. one newspaper company takes public its bid for another. but is deal-making the answer to overcome media industry challenges? fast lane. why the next big battle in the world's largest auto market will be over the biggest vehicles on the road. the business of pain. the alarming numbers that describe prescription drug abuse in america. the first of a three-part series. tonight on "nightly business report" for monday, april 25th. >> good evening and welcome. the media industry under going tremendous change. today is undergoing