>> rose: welcome to the program, we begin this evening with a conversation with anthony mackie who plays martin luther king while bryan cranston plays lyndon johnson in a new television program called "all the way." >> you have two actors on the set. and you never know how that actor is going to work and how, when and if he is going to respect the craft. so you always have to find yourself in a neutral position. you never want to get too big that you don't celebrate the joy but you always want to be humble enough to where you are chasing that big feeling, like every shot could be awful but you are still chasing that one perfect swing. >> rose: we continue with jeultie chen of two cbs programs "big brother" and "the talk." >> that was my dream since i was

in junior high to be a broadcaster. then when you get older and your tastes get more sophisticated, i thought wow, watching every sunday night, that's what i am going to see my life as, and then things change. when are you young, you think you have your life figured out, your goal and your dream and then life happens. >> rose: we conclude this evening with al hunt on the story with senator angus king of maine. >> you have a candidate-- that sprobly positive. the real question ask can we put it back together again in november,ed dang certificate that we're heading too a period where the government isn't working very well. and i don't mean the bureaucracy, i mean the system that the framers designed. >> rose: anthony mackie, julie chen, al hunted and the story with senator angus king when we continue. funding for charlie rose is provided by the following:

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. anthony mackie is here, he takes on the role of martin luther king, jr. opposite bryan cranston from the "all the quaiings with it film takes a behind the scenes look of president johnson's tumultuous year in office and sometimes tumultuous relationship with dr. king. the hold he---- here is the trailer for all the way. >> i keep having this dream, a

commache war party searches the house t is only a matter of time before they haul me up into the light where their knives gleam. the president. >> accidental president, that's what they will say. >> what are you fighting for. listen your heart, that is what people need to hear. >> i urge you to enact president ken doe's civil rights bill into law. >> it ain't going to be easy, dr. king. >> this president is going to have to deliver and we're going to hold his feet to the fire until he does. >> we in the senate intend to filibuster this bill. >> if you get in my way, i'll crush you. >> this civil rights bill. >> just killed your election chances. >> if the government does not do what is right, nonviolence will no longer be an option. >> is that a threat? >> out of the car, boy.

>> everybody wants power. they think it ought to be given out, free of charge like mardi gras beads. nothing comes free. nothing. you think every southerner is going to start dancing to your toon. >> all we're asking is to live as desent human beings. >> i'm trying to turn this country around and prevent a major war. >> my people want results. >> to step down now would be wrong for your country. >> nobody's rendering. >> we're making history here. >> you have to decide how you want history to remember you. >> rose: i am pleased to have anthony mackie back at this

table. >> thank you, thank you for having me. >> rose: wow, that's history. >> yeah, it's amazing. >> rose: but you turned down an earlier chance to play martin luther king. >> i did, a few times. i just never saw him written the way i grew up knowing him. my dad, you know, every year for martin luther king's birthday they would play the king mini series on television. >> rose: right, right. >> and paul winfield played dr. king and he was so magnetic. i thought he was dr. king, it was a three part mini series in the late of 0see, early '70s. and my dad was very prolific and specific about how he felt about dr. king. and it kind of influenced my view of him. >> rose: how did he feel about him? >> well, pie dad always described dr. king as a mother-- of a man. and he always said anybody could say they lead men but only a man can lead men.

and everything you see about dr. king, he was radical. i mean he wasn't passive. he wasn't the type of leader who sat back and waited for the fight to come to him. he lead the charge to the fight. >> rose: and he died fighting for the poor. >> he did. and you know, that was something i feel, you know, i always call dr. king the forgivable socialist. >> rose: the forgivable socialist. >> yeahment because now a days that word is poison to any politician. but back then dr. king really believed in a community coming together and helping each other, you know. you make a community garden to feed the neighborhood, not just yourself. and that's something i think as a community we've gotten away from, and separated from. and now is yus my garden, my yard, my house in this community. >> rose: what did you think you had to do to portray the king that you believed him to be? >> for me, i didn't want to do, you know, you see the trailer and cranston looks exactly like

lbj. and he portrays it in a way that is really remarkable and spot on from the lbj that you see and people talk about. dr. king, i felts, was a man who is more known by his action than his looks. and for me, it was more about his esence. if you can capture a man's eggs team, capture his esence, capture the way people felt about him, people will believe you're that man. so i felt trying to look like him would be disrespectable to his legacy. so i didn't want to do any of all the add-ons or anything like that. >> rose: when you look back in the research you did, it made you more admiring. >> by far. especially-- . >> rose: you learned things you didn't know? >> right, the day and age that we live in, with social media and everything, you're not allowed to be a human being. i think with dr. king, the more i learned of his flaws, the more

i admired him as a human, the more i respected him as a man. cuz i feel like if you-- . >> rose: flaws and all. >> when you put people up on pedestals, there is no way for them to be relaysable. and i see every time theres with a chip on that pedestal, every time he stepped off that pedestal, i realized how much i was like him and how much he was like me. >> rose: you read tavis smiley's book. >> i did. >> rose: how did that inform you? called death of a king. >> death of a king. it is a wonderful depiction of the final 365 days of dr. king's life. and it shows one, his-- the nature in which he was a facilitator for the black community into the white community and the white community into the black community. i think the one thing this movie shows that you never really see is, you know, the doctor king with his core group of advertisers, leaders and

friends. and that frustration between stoakly and ralph abernathy an all those guys. and dr. king having to moderate that and then going to the world of lb swrrks and have to moderate that. >> rose: knowing that j edgar hoover was after him and all that. >> knowing he was after him. and he was just a phenomenal politician. i don't think nufer people give him respect for the politician he was. he played on both sides of the coin. and that's why he and lb swrrks got along so well. because it was ali-frasser. there was a mutual respect there. >> rose: i want to see you as king. here is dr. king speaking to a group of protestors about the importance of civil rights. >> but the government can't legislation what people feel in their hearts. and he's right. ed law can't make white folks love you. but the law can prevent them from lynching you. the law can prevent them from denying you a job and your child an education. (applause) and the law can assure that you

have the right to vote. >> amen. >> i'm not here today to tell you fine people who to vote for. but come election day, let's be sure to send the fine senator from arizona and his tender heart back to the desert where he belongs. (cheers and applause). >> rose: i assume they're talking about barry gold water. >> right. >> rose: who was then the republican nominee. >> that was what was so great. he never came out for lbj but he came out against gold water. that was the compromise. >> rose: tell me, you call acting a serious negotiation. >> definitely. >> rose: what is the negotiation? >> well, it is, you have two actors on the set. and you never know how that other actor is going to work or how he's going to-- when and if he's going to respect the craft. so you always have to find yourself in a neutral position. you never want to get too big that you don't celebrate the joy of acting. but you always want to be humble enough to where you're always

chasing that great feeling. that it's like hitting a perfect shot on a golf course. every other shot can be awful but you're still chasing that one feeling of that perfect swing. >> you remember how sweet it was. >> every single time. >> rose: bryan cranston to work with. >> he was phenomenal. it was-- it was a career-affirming experience for me. i just-- a store eye and i feel like this is the only way to kind of sum up cranston. he was doing stress for tru mbo at the time it had taken off and caught on fire. he was supposed to go to london and do press. and i had to do a scene that was supposed to be between him and i over the phone. so i learned that day that he wasn't going to be there. he was going to london and i would have to do the scene with a pa or somebody. so we do pie first scene. we get to lunch. we come back at the second half of the day. and low and behold, cranston walks inment and everybody is like what are you doing here, you are supposed to be in london. he said well, i have this scene with anthony so i changed my

flight so i can do off camera with him. and-- . >> rose: off camera. >> off-camera, just so he can sit off camera and say the lines. >> rose: make your performance better. >> make my performance better. and you don't have that experience with actors who have a tenth of his career, an eight of his resume. so for him to do that, it was career-affirming. >> rose: take a look at this. this is dr. king discussion the civil rights act with bryan cranston playing lyndon johnson. >> i need to be able to go back to my people and tell them that this president is committed to civil rights. and that this bill even without voting rights will still be a strong bill with no further changes. if i can't do that, i will lose their faith. and i don't know what will happen. >> is that a threat? >> i don't want rights any more than you do.

but in order to avoid that type of situation, i need to be able to deliver meaningful reformz. >> it's exciting. it's a really good movie. i'm proud of it. >> rose: in the end will this film give people an insight into the fact that there can be, if there is a will, for people who want to work together, but represent different constituencies, king on the one hand, representing an importantly the african-american constituency as his role as a civil rights leader, and president johnson representing the country but understanding that progress was essential. >> definitely. >> rose: and they did it together. >> right. i mean if you look at it, dr. king and lbj were both great bipartisan listeners and leaders. i think the best message to come

out of this movie is compromise. you can't win everything if you don't give up anything. and lbj in the four years and few months he was president got so much accomplished. because he had that bipartisan kinship. he could go on either side of the aisle and talk to whoever he needed to. >> take a moment to think about this. on the one hand there is this, all the way about johnson an king. there is also "captain america: civil war." are these just two things that an actor does in the full perspective or the full spectrum of a career? >> yeah. i would like to hope so. i think the goal of an actor is to string together a bunch of jobs to make a career. when i first got into this business there were actors that i admired and i really appreciated. and i wanted their careers. i didn't want their jobs, i

wanted their careers. and every time i see stanley tu cci, every time a see don cheadle, every time i see bryan cranston, those are the guys i look at and i think every time i see them on a poster, it will be a good movie. >> rose: because they put talent to work in different kinds of roles. >> exactly. you know you will see a performance, not a person reciting lines. i always want to be known for my resume, just like anybody else in any other business. if you put your resume out there, you let it speak for itself. i always try to put myself in a position to have my raise may speak for itself. >> rose: do you think because of all the controversy at the time of thek add me awards, and people without didn't get get nominated. a lot of people thought they should be nominated. not because they didn't think people-- it was just vom remarkable performances and they should have been nominated and didn't. and it happened throughout, with nominations. has the impact and the focus on that had some change potential?

>> i think so. i think we are in a very interesting place now as far as entertainment. and we as a group of entertainers haven't figured out how to utilize all of our assets, you know. no one knows where the internet market is going. no one knows how to utilize that best yet. so we're trying to figure out how to turn this cable thing with all these great shows and all the great actors and directors and writers going to cable television, you know, how to change that back into film but at the same time utilize the internet. so i feel like there's a plethora of possibilities. there's a huge reward for the person that figures out where the internet places its part in film. and i think we shouldn't limit ourselves to the mondayicer of being in a movie theater. >> rose: absolutely. >> you have so many outlets. use thot outlets. and i think those outlets will

garner the recognition. >> rose: you're also represent-- representative of the idea that you don't have to live in los angeles to be in the film bises. >> right. >> rose: new orleanss is a perfectly fine place. >> best city in the world. i couldn't see myself living anywhere else. i mean i love los angeles. i adore new york city. but there's a magic in new orleans that you can't find anywhere else in the world. and there's an appreciation of life. there's a fervent love of neighbors and community that you can't find anywhere else in the world. and we're in the middle of festival season, so-- . >> rose: are you plague johnny cochran in the film? >> i am. i am. early johnny cochran. >> rose: right. >> yeah. >> rose: preo.j. >> way, preo.j. this is where shall it-- . >> rose: criminal defense. >> where he made a name for himself. it's this case that basically-- johnny cochran redefined civil justice and he brought the theatrical show to the court room.

and everybody recognized but no one could do it. not the way he did. and you saw it in prime display with the o.j. case but what johnny was able to do or what mr. cochran was able to do early in his career was outstanding. and you see we want to show where he was at the beginning of his career. and how it blowsommed into, you know, if you immediate a lawyer, the only lawyer you can get is johnny cochran. >> rose: the lawyer you want to get is johnny cochran. >> right. >> rose: thank you, great to see you. much success with this. >> appreciate it. >> back in a moment, stay with us. >> julie chen is here. she joined cbs news almost 20 years ago as a reporter and anchor for wcbs television in new york. she is currently host and moderator of the network's daytime talk show "the talk" it examines topical events and the issues through the eyes of five female hosts. she is part of the program's writing team that won its first daytime emmy in 2015 for

outstanding writing special class. she is also the host of the cbs summer reality seergs "big brother." that program will begin its 18th season on june 22nd. i am pleased to have julie chen at the table. welcome. >> thank you, charlie. i'm tired listening to that, 18 seasons. i'm the old person on big brother now. >> rose: this show 25 years, that's a lifetime in television, isn't it? >> it is. >> rose: but this has to be the best of lifetimes for you. because everything you touch is successful. you've got a son, brilliantly named charlie. and you married a good man, les moonves. >> yeah, i have always been a late bloomer in life. and i did not realize that about myself until about a year ago. and then you go through all the milestones. i got married late. i got married when i was 34. an when i got married i said this is my first, only and last marriage. >> rose: and you said before that i'm not getting married. i'm going to be a 6 o minsz correspondent. >> i didn't have time for

marriage. i didn't have time for being a mother. >> rose: i know. >> that was my dream since i was in junior high, to be a broadcaster. and then when you get older and your tastes get more sophisticated, i thought wow, watching every sunday night, that's what i am going to see my life as. and then things change. you know, when you are young you think you have your life figured out. your goals and your dreams. and then life happens. >> rose: so what happened first? >> what happened first was i was surprised to get plucked away from local news here in new york city to the net work. >> rose: right. >> i would have been happy just being like a field reporter, you know, cuz in a big city you get sent to the big stories. so that happened at the network. i got plucked to do a reality show, what's a reality show. it was at the beginning of this whole wave to do "big brother." >> rose: that comes the

question, did you have any sense that when i go to a reality show, i'm taking a different career path than i intended? >> yes, i felt it in my bones. when they asked me to do both morning news at the network at cbs and every week for 13 weeks get on a plane to go to l.a. to do big brother, i asked the then head of cbs news andrew heyward. i had only been working for him less than like, less than eight months. i said be real with me. if i take this assignment and am i permanently closing the door to ever being a "60 minutes" correspondent. and to his credit, without blinking he said yeah, probably. >> rose: probably. >> so i went into it with my eyes open. that being said, while i kind of gave him my answer in his office right there i said well that answers it. i don't want to do it. and he said to me, we could

technically assign you this job at "big brother" cuz you work for the network. and if you say no, it could be seen as a sign of insubordination. i was like 29 years old. i didn't know-- you know, i thought i haven't even been here a year and i'm getting a file. >> rose: and that was 18 years ago. >> yeah, have i grown up a lot since then. >> rose: let me talk about growing up in queens. >> yeah, i loved it. >> rose: loved it. >> i grew up seeing the best of both worlds. growing up in queens made me a child of two immigrants who came here in the '50s to get married and to have a better life for their kids. every summer, every other summer or so i would go back to singapore where my mother's family was. so i grew up kind of seeing it all. queens was like real life. you know, i lived in a good, working class neighborhood, upper middle class.

my dad was a hard worker. my mom was a homemaker. and then every other summer i was going to singapore and seeing the glamorous life that my cousins over in the far, you know, the far east lived. so i-- it kind of opened my eyes to everything. but growing up in queens made me real. kept me grounded. gave me a little bit of a gritty edge which sometimes you need being a woman, trying to get ahead in any business. we joke about it. you know, but if i need to get queens on someone, including my husband, he's like don't get queens on me, i will. >> rose: you mean the grit is there. >> the grit is there. you have to be able to stand up for yourself. and going to public school where there were metal detectors in my junior high school, you learned how to survive. >> rose: tell me about your mother. because she seems to have had

some significant influence on you. >> my mother-- is the wisest person i know. she grew up very privileged in burma, basically the daughter of the most successful man in this country. when i was growing up, she described her father as, he was kind of like the donald trump of burma. i don't know if she would say that today. she fell in love, came to america. >> rose: with a man from singapore or burma. >> no, my father was born in beijing. and during the war while my father and his mom and his five siblings were fleeing the communists because my dad's father was part of the shanghai shek government. >> rose: maotse, tunning won they had to get the hell out of dodge. >> and for a two week period when my dad's family was holed

newspaper my mom's home in rangoon, burm blanca so he is seeing this beautiful 15 year old empress, you know, my mom was very lade, da as they say, they wrote letters for ten yearless, love letters for ten years. and he made sure to get her an application to the university of tennessee in knoxville. cuz my dad was studying for his masters at the university of florida. and he said here is a program, it's about an 11 hour drive from where i am. you could get into the program here and we could be together in the same country. so ten years of letter writing, they, she comes over. >> rose: brings her to tennessee. and she never went back. >> rose: she wanted you to be on the air. >> she planted the seed in my head. in the '70s, one day my mom's cooking dinner, we're watching the local news.

and i see an asian face. >> rose: katie tong. >> and my mother and my father, any time there was anyone asian on television, you would hear this in our house. -- hurry up, hurry up, there san asian face on television. so we all, you know, one tv day, we all run into the living room. we look. and there is katitu ng and she looks like me. and she doesn't sound like my mom, she sounds like me cuz i don't have a chinese axe sej-- ak sint, you know, i'm an american. and my mother said if this woman can do this in this day and age in this country,. >> rose: my daughter can. >> yeah. >> rose: and her daughter goes out to southern california though. she doesn't go to a nearby college. >> i was dieing to grow up. i was the youngest much three girls. and it was like having three

mothers in the house. you know. do this, do that. everyone bossing me around. so when it was my turn, my mom gave us a rule, to all three girls. she said girls, first of all will you go to college. secretary of all, it won't be living under my roof. you need to go somewhere that is truly away to learn how to become an independent woman. and you will have a career. will you make a life for yourself. so when i chose southern kal, my two older sisters were in massachusetts. one was in amhurst and one at wellesley, my mother said i think you took this a little too far. i said mom, i really need to get out from under you and dad and my two older sisters and be my own person. >> rose: when you fell in love with your husband, what did they say? >> my mom sat there like the tiger mom. and you know, i had to-- . >> rose: she wanted to know what. >> she wanted to know are you good enough for pie daughter. what are your intentions. and she sat there.

and i had-- . >> rose: sit down, i want to talk to you. >> my father was pretty much on bended knee about to propose. my father was so happy. pie father was so-- . >> rose: so happy that you. >> so impressed. >> rose: were settling down to an honorable man. >> yeah, to a captain of industry. >> rose: yeah. >> my dad was like-- . >> rose: not just anybody. >> he's like, he could have had anybody, he picked pie daughter. and my mother was like easy. >> rose: want to make sure he measures up. >> yeah. >> rose: has it been both-- being married to the krees of the company, i can imagine obviously you had talented. but obviously it's both a benefit. >> it's a blessing and a curse, charlie. it say blessing and a curse. we are coming up on 12 years of marriage. this year. in the beginning it was tough. it took me at least four years-- . >> rose: because everybody would say. >> everybody that-- . >> rose: didn't know you. >> everybody, well, here was the real problem. people that i worked with before i even knew les moonves, people

that i considered my coworkers and friends, started treating me differently. and not in a god good way. it was like-- . >> rose: how were they treating snu. >> it was like oh, well, you know, well, she gets special treatment because she is married to the boss. and i was still doing the same job. and i was still the same person. i didn't treat anyone else differently. but people started, you know, it was like you became the teacher's pet. and no one likes the teacher's pet. there were three people who did not treat me differently. and to this day, i-- they will always hold a special place in my heart. i remember one news producer went toe to toe with me. we would go toe to toe every now and then when we did not agree on how to cover a news story. and we were going toe to toe in my office. and yet i was so happy. that this person had the guts to stand up to me for what he

believed in when it came to what should be on the air. it wasn't like i'm just going to be her yes man. we had like a healthy argument about how to cover a story. and i liked that. because he didn't care who i was married to. and i tried not to talk-- i never talked about my personal life. and i remember one day tony mirante, your stage manager, formerly mine. >> been there for 20 years. >> he said to me one day, he wanted-- you know, he likes to impress people. he goes, i was hanging out with les moonves yesterday. he came by the set of sports. and he looks-- he forgot i was married to les-- and i said, yeah, i know. and he made this face like-- i forgot you are married-- and that-- i liked that moment in time because it told me, like, you know, i didn't go around saying yeah yes, i'm, you know,

first lady of cbs now. listen me, everybody. you know, that's not me. it never-- it never has been, and it never will be. my mother brace raised me better than that. >> >> rose: you when the talk came up, you were to be a moderator. they would bring all theetion people, modeled after in some ways the view. >> of course, no question. >> rose: to compete on cbs. >> was that something you thought my god, this is perfect for me. i like to talk. i like people, i know how to mix this up. this will be great. >> it is a god send because of a few things. i had just had a baby. i had just turned 40. and i was tired. hi done the morning news for over a decade. >> and if you are a woman, hair and makeup means you get up very early. >> yes, i was about to get this stuff tattooed on my face just for an extra 45 minutes of sleep. so when my husband came home and

said, you know, my head of entertainment ste time doesn't think you would be interested in. this-- they were interested in-- no one thinks are you ever going to leave news. and it was this god send. i was looking for better hours. looking to base myself out of los angeles instead of new york. and i didn't want to give up working. a lot of new moms give up their career. and it's the right choice for a lot of women. but i have found when the kids get older and the women want to get back into the workplace, it's not always-- there's not always an open door. so i didn't want to ever shut that door. >> rose: so what about you? you have two successful shows. what's the driving ambition now?

is it simply to continue the things i'm doing or do you think about, you know, i've got a lot of experience. i've got a lot of talent. i've got a lot of opportunities. charlie, the great kid, is making his own way. >> uh-huh. >> rose: is there one thing or two things or three things or some kind of thing? >> i've often thought, okay, let me at least mark ten years on the talk. >> rose: what is this, seven, eight, six. >> it's six right now. with "big brother" there's a secret side of me that hopes it goes away on its own because i don't want to step down were it because i love it too much. it's a ratings window and if it et goes canceled, then i can't say anything about that. and there is a tiger mom aspect, even though charlie is six, i often think, lay awake at night thinking which college i think he's suited for. and then i think to myself, i think have i to keep working

until he applies to colleges because if i don't have any pull or any, like, presence in the community, if i'm a nobody, how can i help him get into college. even though me and my sisters didn't have help. we did it on our own. it's a weird thing, i think. >> rose: you mean a public presence, therefore you can be a. >> yeah, you can make a little phone call, you can be like hey, you know, rather than oh, she used to be that lady that had that talk show. >> rose: megyn kelly is getting a talk show, i think it airs tonight. megyn kelly presents. is that the kind of thing, and she kind of said basically she would like to be-- there are other people that want to inheret the mantel of barbara walters. did that appeal to you. >> when i was a child, other than "60 minutes," watching her four specials, how many specials a year. it was like wow, you know, she could sit down with qaddafi and

sharon stone. how do i get that job? but this field has changed so much. i have often felt that is something i don't want to give up. because you know what, i have a talk show. people are coming on for six minutes. they're promoalting a show or a movie. it's not the same as sitting down and doing a barbara walters or charlie rose style of interview. and this recently went through my mind. i thought if sharon osborn ever wants to talk, without better to do the interview than me. i'm on the inside. >> rose: that's the way to think. that's the way to think. without better than me. >> and but like she probably would want to sit with you or oprah, but sharon, i know stuff they don't they. that is probably why she wouldn't give it to me. >> beyond sharon osborn, part of that game is getting them to sit down with you. >> yeah. >> an you have an experience, you know people socially, you know people who respect you.

you have something going for you, that experience, skill. >> but charlie, you and i know when it's like a caitlyn jenner, when it's a really big interview that everyone wants, they're always going to silt with the bigger name, the biggest name. julie chen is not the big name you sit down with. i know what my cap-- i know i could do it but i know why they would never-- i wouldn't even be on the list. and it's not about qualifications, it's about you look at my resume, you know. it's like oh, no, you think not going to sit with her. the association is oh, nice person but probably a lightweight. >> rose: but my sense is you wouldn't-- making the decisions you have made, you don't regret any of them. >> none. >> rose: and you are exactly where a place that is very kferltable for you. you could have done other things. but there is a completeness

about your life. >> there used to be a saying and it's still around, we women can't have it all. i remember barbara walters said that to me when i got pregnant. she said julie, we women can't:have it all, but not all at the same time. and i remember maria schriefer said to me when i got preg-- pregnant. she said let me give you two pieces of advice. number one, when you take off for ma ternity leave, you take off as long as you want. because the minute you walk back to work, they don't care that you have a newborn at home. they just see you back at work. and they're going to just start piling things on you. and the time you really need to take maternity leave is when your kids become teenagers. and show i took off eight months which is a long time. and it felt like two weeks. but i show managed to kind of

juggle it all. i don't think-- i don't think i'm doing one thing like spectacularly, but i think i'm doing everything good enough, you know. i'm satisfied. could i be better at this or that, yeah, probably. but you know what, i'm happy. i'm kind of juggling it. >> rose: here's my final question. occasionally we ask people to write in and, or they talk to me about questions when they know someone is coming up. somebody asked me to ask you, how did you get a guy like les moonves? >> les moonves asked me that i know-- shall asked you to ask me that i know he did the question is how did les moonves get julie chen? nice try, charlie. nice try. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> thank you for asking. >> rose: great to sigh, much success. >> good to be with you. >> rose: julie chen, back in a

minute. >> angus king is the most prominent, independent political office holder in america. a two-term governor of maine, he was elected as an independent to the united states senate in 2012. he serves on the intelligence, budget and armed services committee. he caucuses with the democrats while endorsing republicans as well as democrats. senator king, thank you so much for being with us. >> al, always a pleasure. >> we have never quite seen a political year like this. has it been good or bad for the country? >> i think it's been good for the country. everybody has gotten their views out. you've got a candidate representing every slice of the electorate. and i think that's probably positive. the real question is can we put it all back together again in november and then in jafnlt the danger, al s that we're heading into a period where the government isn't working very well. and i don't mean the beur october seevment i mean the system that the framers designed. and what worries me more than

anything, and i've seen this, is when willing rches to listen and be reasonable and compromise is in itself a capital o februaries in politics. in other words, if you are seen to be trying to find a solution through compromise, people in your district may well vote against you just for that. not because of your position on abortion or gay rights or anything else. >> a book has just been published about hillary clinton that says she is a good deal more hawkish than barack obama on national security. which is an area of great interest to you. she supported the iraq invasion, she was a prime pusher for going into libya. she thinks we should have intervened more in syria. does this more hawkish view, does that worry you or do you welcome it? >> i don't know-- i wouldn't say it either way. i think the real issue is a, what is your temperment. and i think that really may be the most important decision about how you make this

decision. because we don't know what the issue is going to be am i think it's hard to say that she's predisposed to use force in every situation. but i-- i think it's probably true. the irony is obama came in wanting to end wars. and he's now been at war than any president in u.s. history, and opening new fronts as we speak. and that is, in part just because of the nature of the world that we live in today. >> rose: you. >> you sitter on the intelligence committee and i know are you not familiar with the specifics about this case. but what is your general feeling about the secretary using that private e-mail server while shes with in office, which circulated some sensitive material that was subsequently classified? >> well, i think a couple of things. >> and i haven't been deeply involved in it i haven't read the e-mails. i understand colin powell did the same thing. it's not unheard of. here's the real irony. during this period, the state, the state department server was

hacked, and here's wasn't. so it may have been that it was more secure. i mean that's-- probably neither here nor there, it is probably a funny side light on history. i don't think 2 was a good idea. i don't know why she did it. what the thinking was except perhaps it was just more convenient but is there there was actually any primes of national security there, doesn't appear to be. but there is a story that is going to dog her. i consider it a kind of self-inflicted wound. they were slow to release the information. they threw out e-mails, you know, disposed of e-mails without any third party saying what is it. i think it was handled poorly in terms of let's just get t my instinct would be let's get it all out there, let everybody see it and then move on. because by drib eling it out, it's made it a six month story and it is going to continue into november. let's go to the other side, trump has given several foreign policy speeches in the last several months or so what is

your imres. >> i have to tell you a story. about two months ago, i'm a member on a subcommittee-- i hate it when congressmen talk about their committees, but i'm on a subcommittee of armed services called strategic forces, a euphemism for nuclear-- nuclear weapons. two months okay several us went to andrews air force base that got on a plane i didn't know exisdz. called the national airborne operation center, otherwise known as the doomsday plane. it is the plane that would gun and provide command and control during a nuclear strike. and it is pretty damn sob aring to be on that plane and realize what its mission is and then in the middle we took off and flu out across the country and came back to washington three or four hours later. in the mid will of it, there was an exercise of a mock nuclear strike. but here's the point of the story. the thing that hit me almost

viserally was that in that situation, there is only one person making the decisions. there are no checks and balances. there is no congress. there is no vice president, there's no consultation. one person has about 20 minutes to decide the fate of civilization. and i had never thought about it, you know, well, we think about our goldberg system of checks and balances. and it was-- that was powerful this is a question that i have about donald trump, is how, the president is going to be on a helicopter somewhere being evacuated and has to decide what to do and this is not far fetched. there are now nine or ten countries that have nuclear weapons. >> how do you a seat his tempment if that situation. >> the thing that bothers me, again i don't know the man, i have never met him. but he seems hold, impulsive, the tweeting, you know, and

he-- you poke him and out comes a, you know, a tweet in the middle of the night that is brutal. it is not measured and you know, you want somebody. >> you are saying you need someone measured? >> oh, man, do you ever. the problem is, al, presidents run on domestic issues, immigration, gun control, economy. but they govern on foreign policy. look at obama. and the congress has abdicated its responsibility in the area of foreign policy, largely, you know, there hadn't been a declaration of war, we are still rounding the authorizeation of military force going back to 2001. they have essentially allowed the president free reign in making war and committing u.s. forces. and that means, man, we have got to really think hard about who we are going to entrust that job to. >> let me ask you about just a couple more specifics on the trump foreign policy. he has said that we are bearing too heavy a burden, that other

nato countries should pay a lot more than we do. and even suggested a possibility that maybe in asia, a new clear umbrella would disappear in korea and japan could get new-- nuclear weapons. >> that is the point. if we did that, let's say the asia pamplet he says okay, we're going to back off on the nuclear umbrella, what is going to happen. japan and south korea will get muk leer weapons, do we want that? do we want two more countries with fuk leer weapons and all the dangers of misat kaition of fissile material and all that. that is a kind of-- it's not a very thoughtful policy prescription. as far as nato, everybody knows the nato countries ought to pay more. the president has been saying that, we have been saying that. they have agreed to it. two% of gdp. >> they have been saying it for many years. i don't think that is-- i think that is a legitimate point. but then when you sort of question the underlying premise

of nato, and is nato really still relevant, that's an invitation to aggression. another thing is the statements about keeping muslims out. that is-- i happen to be on cnn, the hour that he said that. and wolff blither said to me, what do you think. i hadn't had time to read up on it or anything. my immediate response was it's a gift to isis. >> do you agree with general petraeus that would make him more dangerous? >> there is no question whatsoever in my mind. that is exactly what isis wants. is to drive a wedge between the west and the peaceful muslim community that we have all over america and all over the west. they want to do that. they want to make this a war of civilization. and to the extent we alienate muslim communities here or are perceived to do so, they just say yeah, sure, look what these guys are doing in america. you can't trust these westerners. >> if this is as polarizing, as

rough a campaign as it looks like it is going to be, what will there be a market for a third party, an independent party or independent candidates. is the one independent thousand that bernie has left you sitting in the senate, are you going to be generous or do you think there will be more. >> new parties historically are very unusual and hard to start. it takes either a very, very charismatic leader or a burning issue. the last true new party was the republican party in 1856. and you had the issue of slavery. and then you had abraham lincoln four years later. that's very difficult. but i think there will be places where they are going to be independence. one of the problems is the system is definitely rigged in favor of the two parties. it would cost roughly the estimate i have heard from years ago was $50 million, just to get on the ballot in all 50 states. >> uh-huh. >> whereas the parties are on immediately. but i think the time might come t will depend on the

circumstances who the candidates are. the danger, the trouble, people talking about a third party candidate now, if it was a third party canada to the middle or left t would probably elect donald trump, he or she would probably elect donald trump. the republicans are worried about a third party candidate to the right which would elect the democratic canada. so that is always a danger. once you get into three party races, merick garland, the president's nomination to the high court. you said you met with imhad, what are the prospects of him being confirmed. >> i think if hillary clinton is elected, the odds are about 95%. i think the republicans will mick a judgement that they take merick garland over somebody she might nominate later on if she decided to go with a different nominee. i am just, that is just my practical assessment. i think it's a rel shame we haven't had a hearing or a vote.

when i melt with him, 45 minute h a very good discussion. i kept having the feeling that i wish there was a camera over my shoulder so people could meet this guy. because he's-- a judge's judge. i have no ideas his political party or background. >> i think he would decide, i think he would gsh-- dehe would be a sort of swing justice like sandra day o'connor. and that say role that he would play very effectively. also he's a consensus builder. so it doesn't-- i agree with you. i don't think there is much likely had at all that anything is going to happen between now and november. >> would you like to see the supreme court overturn the citizens united case? >> sure. >> do you think that's feasible? >> the citizens united case was unmarred from precedent and legal history. i mean it's the old saying i think it was bran drees to-- i

think the citizens united case will be viewed that way. the reasoning was, i think, just unsupportable. clearly having it overturned would be a lot easier than a constitutional amendment because when you get into a constitutional amendment, you are talking about what are the parameters of the first amendment, it would be very, very complex and difficult. i have voted for tomu dahl's bill to provide a constitutional amendment to repeal it. but i think as a practical matter, some kind of reconsideration by the court just makes sense. otherwise we're just-- we're just getting worse and wompletsz it's a tsunami of money, particularly unaccountable money, nobody knows where it's coming from. and it's going to-- i really, i don't want to sound a lrmist but it worries me about the future of our democracies.

>> let me get on the armed services and intelligence camp for a moment. are we turning the corner. are he with winning the war against isil? >> yes and no. i think we are on the ground against iraq and syria. i have seen maps, recently. their territory is contracting, getting them out of raqqa and mosul is going to be very difficult. the standard is that it takes ten people attacking to dislodge one soldier in a city. so it's going to take a lot of people. and it's going to take a long time. and these guys have no quawlk-- qualms about using civilians as a sheel. but having said all that, their control of territory is diminishing. i think that partially explains why we're seeing an uptick in these outside of the battle feemed attacks. these bombings in baghdad, brussels and paris. they're trying to keep their recruiting up, believe it or not, killing people is a

recruiting tool. post people say to be successful in iraq now, that government has to be able to function. do you have any confidence that the iraqi government can function effectively? >> my confidence is di minute shalling. a real opportunity was missed with mall akee, mall aki needed to summon his inner mandela and he didn't do it, i gov earned as a shia and discriminated-- he, that situation more than any other paveed the way for isis to come in, particularly to iraq because the sunnies said hey, maybe these guys will give us a better deal. >> is mall akee-- is he-- i think it was i think we kreelted a friendly atmosphere for them. i say we, the iraqi government by not clueing-- including the kurds and sunnies created the fertile ground for isis. and that government right now,

abadi, i think wants to dot right thing. but apparently the politics in baghdad are brutal. and you've got the shia militia. you've got sad err, you've got iran in the background. if they don't get their act together as a government in baghdad, that's inclusive, that includes sunnies and kurds, it's a hopeless fight. >> you were in a unique position. the only independent member of the united states congress. if you were king, if you were king, who would you tap as president of the united states as their leader? who that we don't consider would really impress. >> well, the guy that i have been most impressed with since i have been in washington is tim cane of virginia. who is prosm nently mentioned as a vice presidential candidate for hillary clinton. >> you liked that choice. >> he was a very success-- he's a mayor, a governor, he knows about executive-- he knows about being an executive, very successful governor. virginia is a contentious state with, you know, conservatives

and liberals, and he was very popular, worked with both sides. and i have gotten to know him personally. he's a deep guy, spirit allly and intellectually. terrific public speaker. he is a guy i hope some day will lead the country. >> that say nice note to end on. thank you so much for being with usment an thank you for watching. >> for more about this program and earlier episodes, visit us online at pbs.org an charlie rose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

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this is nightly business report with tyler mathisen and sue herera. rising odds, the federal reserve is thinking seriously about increasing interest rates next month, but there's one thing they want to see first. housi housing, with starter homes in short supply what's stopping builders from building more of them. organic foods is growing fast but farmers haven't kept pace. why that's about to change if one business has its way. good evening and welcome. i'm sue herera. tyler mathisen is on assignment tonight. june was