>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with é republican convention. we talk to danv costa. >> trump wants to project strength as well as makingxd a political pick. all these things are circulating around trump and trump tower when he's on the plane. sometimes the most important person to donald trump is the person next to him at that @ he's soliciting so much advice over the phone, over the course of many conversations. >> rose: we turn to china and talk to the former prime minister of australhdkevin rudd, now atjfñr the asia socie. >> i think in a perverse sort of few folks up around the place ir terms of getting back to the negotiatingçó table, and toe1 bf concluding what is called a legally binding code of conduct.

i look very carefully at theok statements from the regional governments. the philippines government did not jump up and down and have a party over this decision. they said let's get back historical angst with china on thisñr question, have said same, and so have the indonesians, and otherq states. chinaçó refers to the.ø negotiating table with the philippines.a0&(& t0>> rose: we concluder movie called "captain fantasticd and st)$/hu)ttz mortensen. >> the moviexd is veryxd muchw3t your values are as a parent, what you pass on to your children. in that regard, when writing iq about what mattered to me. >> rose: that's whenfá we continue.

>> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by the following: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: weym begin this eveni, again, with politics. hillary clintonñi urged unity ad tolerance as theó[ national conversation unfolds about race and pw a dallas shootings. clinton spokeçó earlier today in springfield,xd illinois, from te same chamber where 160 years agd abraham lincoln declared thatlpa house divided against itself cannot stand. >> theçóñr challenges we face ty

do not approach those of lincoln's time. not even close. wee1 should be very about whethe are still ae1 house dúvided. despitexd our best efforts, and highest hopes, america's3w long struggle with race is far from finished. >> rose: the speech came a after clinton shared the stage with bernieúsanders. he endorsed her in portsmouth, new hampshire. meanwhile donald trump is in the inal stage of$x picking his running mate. heym met today with indiana governor mike pence, being considered. joining us from washington bob costa, a national political reporter for "the washington post." here in new york, dan senor,etco

first to bob. how close are we to a pick, bob, >> donald trump has not yet made a decision, but he had a series of meetings in indiana. he had a rally on tuesday night with pence. went well according toñ associates. but trump still is looking at governorjf christiñre÷ gingrich. he's running out the clock. he wants tom/o makeymxde1xdxdie

pence is someone who the campaign cha%uá really has at the top of the list, urging trump behind the scenesó[ to pk someone who's seasoned, well-respected by the conservative right, and who cani be a unifyingxd forcew3 at this stage. >> rose: give me asense ofxd trump's timing for all of this, and what are the plans for theçó convention as you know them at thisñr point? >>ñrok i spoke to several trump advisors this afternoon aboutw3q the rollout. they do have a plan. trump will have fundraisers inçó the bel air area on thursday. the hope is toñr make an announcement about the pick on thursday evening, make sure they're in the friday parw$m1ñ

and on fridayq event,x perhaps going into theñzi weeked sitting down withçó "60 minutes" and other television stations to revxnupe1 andçó the momentum ani buzz around the ticket, taking you into cleveland next week. you'll have a lgtvçó of sports stars, bobbyq start. party leads think trump could be toxic to their own re-election chances. >> rose: is anything left in the stop trump movement? >> yes. first of all, there's a delegate revoljd that will take place net week. whether or not it will be#!i?s t it's a dynamic process. there's a key vote happening in the rules committee early next week, probably monday, that will dete' delegates will haveñi the opp their conscience. if that happens, who knows. even if the stop trump movement fails at the conventao)k its mere existence at the convention, the push for a vote

is a blemishxd on plans for a smooth rollout. they have three big moments. the convention, the vp pick andd debates. they want them g to go smoothú swimmingly. if the stop trump fails at the't recruit an independent candidate will continue. it'sxd ongoing.w3 it's a dual track process. we don't have much time on that. >> rose: you said, "we." >> i'm sympathett support of it. there's not much time for it because there's a lot of ballot accessxd issues. it mayó[ ukf"mately not go muchq effort to either dislodge trump or find a replacement. the vp degree, because a lot of4 people animating the stop trump movement are conservatives, and depending on who he picks, it could givexd reassurance to somc of thei] conservatives. >> rose: conservatives have an opposition to him, do they not? >> abco if you want to reassure

conservatives -- depends onñr trump, how he feels about the race. if they want to reassure conservatives, particularlyñr christian evangelical conservatives -- a t$ink mike pence is the safest. he was a governor, in theu leadership in congress. well liked by christian conservatives, that movement. pence is more compelling. if their theory of the race is it's a changexdxd election, an insurgency election, and they should double,çó triple,i] quad trouble down on doingñi whatever the conventional wisdom says they should not do, then he'd go with someone likea5 gingrich. i don't see chris christie making it. >> rose: trump likes an attack dog as vice president, because of the campaign, a tough campaign. secondly, he likes somebodyxd that, asxd heok says, will get n there and exchange punches. thirdly, he said he likes somebody that he feels comfortable wip that really -- all those three

things would all go well for governor christie.w3 >>q governor christie, it seems, but also hurt governorxd christie. according tor political calculationxd and his gut instinct. his gut instinct is to go with a christie or gingrich, or flynn, a retiredq they'vee1w3 become close. trump wantsxd to project strengh as well as a political pick. all of thesew3 things are circulating around trump, trump tower, when he's on the plane. over then ofg manyi] conversations. itq campaign,kofá the professionald conservative republican aspect of the campaign, they agree with dan. they say you have to get thetsei enthusiastically. butr someone who's either an attev

dog or a changei] event, even someone like flynn, a registered democrat. >> rose: you've got new polls in swing states. trump'sui3" @&c >> when you look at trump's campaign, and nice study of this, it's lacking in terms of resources and organization across the countryr almost any other candidate, if they had this kind of infrastructure that trump has across theñi country, really relying in a heavy way on the republican national committee,de candidacy that could be competitive, but because trump -- he benefits fromq clinton's also historically high unfavorable numbers in the polls, and benefits just from the force of his personality. even though he'sxd not on the ground in manyjf states,fá not spending almost anything on the airwaves, he'sxd saturating the media, constantly in the headlines. this is propelling himt( forward as someone who's different andi] fresh, even though people do see him as vulgar atxd times, see hm

as perhaps racist, and this comes through in the polling as well. >> rose: how is the financing÷ñ going? >> it's going okay. trump hasçó raised aboutó[ $50 million, but it's not really for his campaign. it's partly for the almostq senate race on look the at theó[ kind ofjf moy that's being spent. most of trump'slp moneya5 is st on plane rides on his private boeing 757. this is not a campaign that's really being supported by major donors in the party. a few like trump, like tom arrick, but others are saying no thanks. >> rose: go ahead.5c>>xd a bigq support, which onesxd show up at the convention. ijf mean, if they show up at the convention, thesexd donors, all tze[ have to do is donate $10,000 ore1 more at the rnc and you can come to the convention. andñr donors, who are excited about ac

a campaign, want to play a big role in the campaign, historically have had come to the convention. mccain had 600 donorsñi come to the convention. romney hq& about 1500. interesting to see who shows up next week. if they break the 100 number of donors whoxd would attend i woud bei]xde1w3+ donor support is very low.ok >> rose: why do you think he's doing so well in swing states, ini] florida, in ohio and -- >> first ofu a rough week and a half. the polls that are out, they were in the fieldt(xd at h$jñ pó bad period,xdt( a.ñi b, strip that away. hillary is still a very weak candidate. ixd mean, i think if any other republican were running right now asñi the nominee, they'd be0 points ahead ofw3 clinton, if ay other democrat were the nominee, other than hillary against trump,çó with histine negatives,

they'd be 15 points up.i] it's just thati] two of these candidates have extremely high negatives, and you're asking people toáñ choose from two options thatçó they really,lp ry dislike. i think thatxd will change a get closer to the fall. >> rose: is it too late for him to get the party people that you know, romney and ryan -- although ryan has endorsed -- to be enthusiastic forñi him?r has that train left the station? >> look,z7 if you look the at e past presidents -- you-9 know, george w. bush, jokes h.w. bush, mitt romney, jock anything will change between nowndñiyokolpr >> jeff sessions, i've covered him in congress for a long time, and he was always on the fringeq on the republican party, a hard-liner onx:juáájáion..i-the.

trump started to put the jeff sessions agenda, which never was at the center of republican politics, at the fore ofi] wható this party is all about. what dan is hitting on is so correct, that the people who have been theokxd titanakn the republican party for the last 20-25 years, they see trump as an aberration in many respects, someone they cannot respect or really be with politically. they see himq just an alien force that's meddled withe1 a party thatçó they've created, crafted andñr loved.:-á his mind -- i've spoken to him about this numerous times -- in breaking the republican partp> he thinks the institution has become corrupt in terms of what it espouses, whatxd it pushes, d he thinks more of a populist,ñi not even$1 ideological party, but antibusiness in some respects, reforms in the way that paul ryan does. it's a totalq

the republican party, a party that doesn't have a smooth connection to the suburban(vote have long been its leaders. >> roe-s question, if trump loses ingñ november, whether or not trumpism survives, all those issues that bob talked about. will there be another sort of steward, another successor to trump and trumpism after trump. it's not clear to me. trump may be such+ figure, uniquely talented in many respects -- iw3 mean, he's obviously excellent at dominating the media. he has resourcesw3 of his own tt he was able to start the campaign. obviously talented, v television. he had a set of skillsúa( well for this moment. does another person with the same worldview have those skills? i don't know. ifen you lookç/r(u the÷ runningi] this time, those lookg to run next time, none of themhc

advancing actually survive? i'm skeptical. >> rose: whatxd would defeat doo him, bob? >> defeat would, i think, just dd/%state trump. this is someone whoçó is -- i don't say this lightly. he's obsessed with winning. he's obsessed with the concept of winning. if you readñi "the art of theçó deal," his aboutw3 business, it's not so mh about the bottom line or the amount he's able to accumulate, it's about winning or beas+ opponent. this isr trump is. and i think that is really driven him more thanr this process.w3 first,té wouldxd run. that angered him, motivated him to run. then to try tow3 win the primar. this is not someoneçó who's part of a project. paul ryan was anxd aid to jack kemp. he residences for congress at 28. he's partçó ofñr this conservate movement. romney runs for years in massachusetts, then runs6z up e national ladder. these areq project. trump is pbb( project, which is to prove a

point aboutó[ winning, and at e same time almost fall into the populist wave circulating around the country. >> rose: today there wasqñ)p &cc against some employee, $10 million. what was this? >> yes. this is, i-99 moment for same time he's about to makeó+)c key juncture in a campaign,!u s now involved in a lawsuit against sam nunberg, a confidante of hist( a year ago, thislp former aide was then fird by trump for having racist facebook posts, but ever since then they've had an uneasy relationship, and trump has b non-disclosure agreement thatr nunberg signed, thinksñi he broe it, and that's led to thisçó $10 million lawsuit, which comes during a timeok when trump shoud really, hisxd advisorsr be focused purely on the campaign, yet hisok litigious side, which has been there throughout his career, raises its head again.ym

>> rose: b, thank you so much. dan, thank you so much. stay with us. we turzi to asia. the hague decided china hasko o rights to much of the south china sea. the case was initiated by theok philippines. the country argued that china wasq ponvention on the law of the." sea. beijing said it would not abide joining me is kevin rudd, a former prime minister of australia. i'm pleased to have him back at this table. welcome. >> good to be back,!+ good >> rose: so the hague makes this decision, hands down thisxd decision. china says we're not goinge1 to abide by it. w case, for internationalxdñiwo/. >> the united states has said the same thing about u decisions from the court of arbitration#odq

be accused of war crimes? >> graham allison of the kennedy school reminded me ofçó this the other day, thatxd back in thexd '80s, when i think it was nicaragua who took the united states to court over the u mining ofw3 nicaraguan ports, tc and gene kirkpatrick -- even i remember this -- came out with rose: andçó paranoid? >> maybe (a9 sometimes we listen to what it says, and other times we don't.d >> rose: yeah. >> even last year, i think the ignored, and th'?, russians the year before. i believe in the u.n., inxd multilateral institutions. i believe inxd these institutio. but theçó key question we face s what do we now do in terms of actually pot disputes inñi the south china s?

that i think is nowxd a practicl questionxdñiñr

temperature after this decisiony may now start and has, i though,

sounded rather aggressive himsen terms of being responsive to whe chinese were doing. >> well, ash carter, secretary f defense, is a guy i respect a l. i've met him several times. and he doesn't take his decisios lightly.

the. >> rose: cranky means it has nor reason? >> i think we've got to the stae relationship where the administs in both countries apart from corporation, things like climatg and apart from corporation and other things, south china sea is front and center, east china sea to some extent, and frankly now that we've got a new administration, taiwan, question marks over that as well. >> rose: a less friendly one. >> yeah. i think less friendly. a little more cranky, but if you went to the fundamentals of the relationship i think, charlie, the fundamentals are still in working order. what i find most fascinating is that despite the sound and light

show that often follows a diplomatic disagreement, and statements flying here and there, and ships on the sea, that the actual military-to-military relationships between the people's liberation army, united states armed forces, and pacific command, is in fact strong and growing. >> rose: both in terms of the contact they have, the mutual understanding of each other's objectives, and engagement? >> well, that's true. and frankly, i think the great success of both administrations, despite all the complications in the south china sea is how in fact they get together in the last two years and negotiated, one, a protocol to avoid incidents at sea, and then how to manage them if they occur. accidental collisions. recently one consenting incidence in the air. you know, prior to this administration, the united states, and prior to their administration, we did not have that. so at a functional level, functional level of this relationship, even on the hard security questions, it's

reasonable. i think the granddaddy issue facing us all, though, whoever becomes the next president of the united states, will be north korea. that's going to be a big one. >> rose: new this week, they may have missiles that they can fire from submarines. >> well, it's always difficult to sort what the north korean propaganda machine says and what is true. certainly my discussions with people who have followed this for decades is mounting concern about what the north koreans now have. short-range missiles, medium-range missiles, longer range missiles, a capacity to miniaturize, question mark, and then an open question about submarine launch capability. all this points, i think, in terms of a massive challenge for the new u.s. administration. >> rose: of highest import. >> look, we're talking about weapons of a mass destruction on the part of a regime in north korea, which frankly does not

care much about international norms of any description. >> rose: how much do they care about the chinese? >> a lot. they might say they don't, but the bottom line is if you look at the military-to-military relationship, pla in china, the korean people's army, kpa, it's still close, and the army counts on army and food supplies from the army to keep it ticking. the chinese leadership have not fully thrown that throttle. they've did it once after the first nuclear test. if this continues to head in a bad direction in terms of the acquisition of a north korean nuclear capability, which could immediately threaten the south and threaten japan, u.s. allies, and given what that means in terms of fundamental security risk, i would hope our chinese friends would throw that

throttle even further. that should be the basis, frankly, of the strategic die looking between the two militaries, china and the united states. >> rose: what to do with north korea? >> and the two administrations, once we have a new president here in the united states is what to do about north korea. i fear this is a core national security issue, which the next president of the united states will face. >> rose: talk about ping. how long has he been in office? >> about five years. >> rose: decline in economic growth, some questions about what the numbers really are. where do they stand both economically and also in the stability of his government? >> on politics, i've seen that

xi? jinping is under deep criticism. in university, back at australia, studying language, politics and history, my specialization was chinese politics. >> rose: right. here you go. >> so anything else, it's arguable. >> rose: so you know about the standing committee, what's going on? >> i have some idea of the debates going on at that level. my view is that xi jinping has no threat to his leadership. i mean that in every sense. his consolidation of his hold on the military is strong. the shifting of major personnel who represented historically, some people in opposition to him, has been completed virtually, and he's now in the business of presenting his list

for a full politburo. i don't buy the articling argument that he's in trouble. >> rose: the $the.>> the persone anticorruption body in china is someone i've been privileged to get to know over the years as well. he's proud of that. he was mayor of beijing at the time of the olympics. really experienced guy. >> rose: and a guy they would go to when they were in trouble. >> yeah. a phenomenal grasp of his country's history, and the world. his view, and i think xi jinping's view, given how big the corruption problem had become in the chinese communist party, if they're to prosecute a national political strategy, which keeps the communist party in power, and that's what they

want to do, then the only way they can do it is to clean up the show, to make sure that party-building, as they say, heads in that direction. the two other basis of legitimate of the chinese party, delivering the economic bacon and china's national security interest. you mentioned the economy before. think simultaneously they'reis rried about the global economy. brexit has worried them as much as it's worried the rest of it. >> rose: give us a tutorial on how brexit, britain leaving the european union, affects china. >> three pillars of economic growth. one in china, broader east asia, the second the united states, and third european union. european union has been performing badly in recent times, not just in terms of the state of its financial institutions, italy and the rest, but in terms of growth, and their contributions to the

whole global economic pile. and china has historically had robust markets in europe to sell to. once you add this further big political risk factor of a british exit decision, the chinese assessment, and many share it, is going to fundamentally weaken further the european economy and its aggregate contribution to global growth. remember, european's collective economy is better than america's. >> rose: the european union? >> yes. that's the chinese analysis. on the domestic economy, they're worried -- >> rose: just because britain leaves the european union, that's not the destruction of their demand capacity, it's lessened by the economy of britain, but that economy had begun to decline where it had shown remarkable growth after 2008. >> that's true, but when you've got britain as the fifth or

sixth largest economy in the world, one of the three largest economies in europe, the second after germany, suddenly it's out of the equation, and secondly because of the shock factor within britain itself over the decision, you see not just the impact on sterling, but you see declining business and investor confidence. >> rose: what is the ambition, do you think, of xi jinping? >> xi jinping's ambition -- >> rose: not just personal, but for his country. >> it's a great and fundamental question, charlie. he wants a china which has three things. he wants a china which is strong and powerful in the region and in the world, where the world respects chinese power. first one. number two -- >> rose: before you say number two, does the world not respect chinese power? >> you know, in the way in which these things are seen in beijing, china often sees its vulnerabilities more acutely than the rest of us.

>> rose: yes, yes. >> you kind of know your own stuff a bit better. >> rose: okay. number two. >> number two, he wants to see the living standards of chinese people reach full middle income status. on a pathway to bring it to developed country status, get the remaining 100 million people out of poverty. >> rose: create consumption and demand within china so they don't have to depend on their export market. >> that's right. driving the future growth. number three, we've touched on it, with the communist party still in control, and therefore a new political model, as you would see it. his ultimate response to the end of history. that's his ambition, as you've asked me the question. will he succeed? don't know. i've been studying this country a long time. and a lot can go wrong. so far they seemed to have come

a reasonable way. >> rose: thank you for making time to talk to us today. >> good to be here. >> rose: centenario, former prime minister of australia, now here with the asia society. back in a moment. stay with us. >> rose: "captain fantastic" is a new film from writer director matt ross. viggo mortensen is raising his six children deep in the wilderness of the pacific northwest. it's called gorgeous, just the right amount of sad. here's the trailer. >> what we created here may be unique in all of human existence. we've created a paradise. >> what we're doing out here is so incredible. the kids are amazing. >> mom needs to be in the hospital right now.

♪ >> how she's doing? >> we're family. >> this is your food. wherever you are, stay there. you show up, i will have you arrested. >> we can't go to mommy's funeral. >> we want to see mom. >> right now, this is your first real test. remember your training. >> they have hot dogs. >> what's cola? >> poison water. >> i'm so happy that our family is together. all local and organic. >> how did you kill those chickens? with an axe or knife? >> you buy it. it's already dead. >> they need to go to a real school. >> i sincerely hope you haven't

been doing what i think you've been doing. >> will you be my wife? ♪ ♪ >> unless it comes out of a book, i don't know anything! >> even they make it through whatever it is you're doing to them, they'll be totally unprepared for the real world. >> and i happen to think the opposite is true. >> that almost hit me. >> if i wanted to hit you, i would have hit you. ♪ ♪ >> hello, grandpa. >> abby and i have decided we're going to file for custody of the children. >> will they take us away from you? >> there's a possibility. >> our children should be philosopher kings. >> rose: "captain fantastic" is

playing in new york and in los angeles. joining me now writer director matt ross and star viggo mortensen. i'm pleased to have them at this table. welcome back. >> good to see you. >> thank you. good to be back. >> rose: you've said this is a film about the father i would like to be. >> well, don't we all want to be viggo mortensen? >> rose: yeah. >> yes. it's largely aspirational. it's not entirely. i mean, there are many things about the father that are part of my life. i endeavor with my wife to attend to our children in many ways. and we -- i'm very careful about what we feed them. i care about that very much. we should all be of sound body and mind, you know. a lot of my sense of humor is in the film. ben's sense of humor is in the film. a lot about what i believe about the world is in the film.

you know, i think that the character is aspirational. i don't live out in the woods. i have in my life. i grew up in rural areas. my mother had similar desires. she took my brother and i and was part of starting some communal living situations in northern california, in oregon. i always am very clear to sit -- or i want to be clear about the fact that they were not hippie communes. i always say that's a reductive and inaccurate term, but people that wanted to live in harmony with nature, many of them artisans or artists who could do their work outside the cities. many had plumbing. many did not. in the summertime, we lived in a teepee. in terms of the autobiographical nature of the film the only thing that's really true to me is i remember feeling wanting to leave the forest around

adolescence, and wanting to be around kids my own age. the movie is about values as a parent, what you pass on to your children. when i was writing it, i was thinking about a great deal, what really mattered to me -- my wife and i were discussing, that's a charitable way of saying, we were fighting a lot probably about what our values are. you don't really know, when you have a child with someone, you don't really discuss, in this circumstance, what would you do? it's not what you feed them, what they read, but is it safe to walk to the library. everything. what his character is doing is -- for me is aspirational. i think he's connected to a natural environment -- i mean, so many of us, we're not even connected -- let alone to our food source. you know, you show up at a restaurant. you have no idea. you've never killed an animal. yet you eat meat all the time. forget that, you're not even connected to the seasons.

when it's hot outside, we turn the air conditioning on. he's a man connected to the rhythm of the natural world. i think that's a beautiful thing. >> rose: tell me about the character for you. >> well, there were certain things that echoed from my experience, raising not six children, but one child, in terms of making an effort to communicate. i did not devote 100% of my energy and time to my child, his education. it's impossible to do that. in that sense, it's aspirational. you imagine, what it would be if i dropped everything. >> stream conscious parenting. >> but like ben, i was not a "no because i said so" dad. like ben, in some regard, i've been a "well, i don't think so,

and let me explain why, and then you have a counter argument i'd like to hear it." that takes more effort. generally i've been that kind of dad, although at times you're tired and you're short, no, i can't play now, we're not going to go swimming it's time for bed. every parent is different. every child is different. finding the rhythm, and it changes from day to day. that's one of the great things about the story. when i started reading it, i realized it was special. 10, 15, 20 pages in, i said, i see what this is. it seems to be left-leaning, liberal, in any case, utopian fantasy, and this family that lives off the grid in the forest, are going to be our heroes, and their obstacles are going to be conservative people, conservative ideas. let's see what happens. it's a legitimate kind of story. a ways into it, i realized, no,

it's much more than that. actually everything they do is not condoned, nor is it condemned. there are other models. i love the fact that he goes too entually finds a way to rebalance, to make a compromise. >> rose: he said the things you choose to do, the things you choose not to do, speak volumes. >> well, you also have to be lucky. yes, i've always been, i suppose as discerning when i could be when i first started out as an arc. it's very rare that an actor, first time out, second time out, is suddenly a movie star, getting lead roles. i did hundreds and hundreds, like most actors, of auditions without getting a role. you have to be stubborn and patient. at first, whatever you can get is experience, whether it's tv, movies, plays. whether you get frustrated and

get your friends together and do some readings. but my approach before and after becoming, you know, much more well known with the release of "lord of the rings,," for example, and then other movies, has always been to look for interesting stories, regardless of where they were made, stories i'd want to see. i mean, it was subjective. i'd like to be in stories, even if it didn't turn out well, it was a great idea, and i won't be embarrassed to watch 10 or 15 years from now. >> rose: even though it wasn't "the revenant," was it difficult to shoot? >> our encounters in nature and our physical challenges were not special effects. it was all real. those kids really did those things. we really did the rock climbing, the martial arts and --

>> every film had challenges. there's six kids in every scene. you have two things there. one, you have to cover seven people. cover, meaning photograph seven people. that's very complicated. if there's two people in the scene, you can have a two-shot, over the shoulder. that's very common. second thing is children can only work so many hours a day. >> rose: the idea here is that ben is not a friend of these kids, he's a teacher. >> yeah. well, he's not a friend in the sense that -- >> rose: buddy. >> -- a lot of parents would rather be pals to their kids and have their kids think they're cool. >> rose: right. >> and don't have parameters or rules. >> okay, i'll farm you off, here's your iphone, eat what you want, come and go as you please. at the time kids are, great, mom and dad are great. as young adults, when you ask

them, what was the situation with your parents? how was your dad? >> how was my dad? i guess he was around. he was all right. >> rose: no defined memory. >> well, yeah. rather than saying i remember ad to find it was annoying that my dad would ask me, what are you eating? what's that book about? make sure you get home at such and such a time. let me see your grades. how long are you getting at school? do you have any friends? i thought it was a pain in the neck. now i realize he had an interest. and probably there's a communication that continues into adulthood that wouldn't in other cases. >> a famous child psychologist whose name escaped me, talking about parental love, you define love or show love by creating boundaries and rules, that actually subconsciously the child understands that those parameters show caring, and actually the mistake that many parents make, you want to be friends. oh, sure, you can do that. >> you need to lead by camp,

admitting you made a mistake, which you do see in this story, is an important thing for a child to see. if you realize you've made a mistake, you need to change course, you need to admit it. >> rose: there's one scene in which the children are asking you about their mom, when she'll return from the hospital. here it is. >> why does mommy have to be gone so long? >> she hasn't been gone very long. >> actually it's been six months, and -- >> mom is very ill. >> don't talk to us like we're inferiors. >> well, mom needs to be in the hospital. >> you said americans are undereducated and overmedicated. >> all of those things are true,

but mom does not have enough of neurotransmitters to conduct electrical signals in her brain. >> exactly when is mom coming back? >> that's what i'm going to find out. be good. >> see you later, dad. >> bye, guys. >> rose: how good a scene was that? >> that's an example of the kid- when i read the script, i said, matt, you've got a great script, but if you want a great movie, you need six genius young actors, able to, not just the physical skills, but speak dialog that's complicated even for an adult in terms of -- you know, it's very mature. >> rose: rhythm paced. >> just the idea to see the youngest of them. that's a good example. >> rose: say thank you. >> thank you.

>> some of the things that charlie shotwell says who plays nye, my son says it. if my son says it, i'll find these kids. my son said to my daughter, he said, i'm writing down everything you say in my mind. i thought, that's so great. that's so great. i had faith we'd find these kids. i mean, it took time. >> rose: it's almost a movie about, there can be villains and heroes at the same time, in the same person. >> true, yeah. i mean, i think there's moments in the movie where it doesn't matter what your ideological point of view is, but there's moments where you ask yourself, well, is he the best parent in the world, or is he the worst? is he a menace to society, to his own children, or is he giving them a most incredible start in life? well, it's all those things. >> i've been asked frequently what message are you delivering with this film? actually film is not the best

medium to deliver a message. sam gold win said if you want to deliver a message -- >> rose: use western union. >> really it's a fictional family that goes on a journey and transforms. if i had an intention, it was to depict all the characters as three-dimensional, flawed human beings who exist in shades of gray. >> rose: did you want to change the character? >> no. when i talked to him in the beginning i said you're antagonistic toward viggo's character, but you are not the antagonist. that was music to his ears, because he wanted to play a complicated, flawed men. >> he doesn't have as much screen time as i do, and yet in

short order you got a complex human being. at first, he's a nemesis, rigid, and then you come around, oh, he's got a point. >> he wanted to do that. i also wanted him to do that. i said, wouldn't it be wonderful if we were following viggo's character for an hour and a half, we think he's our hero, even though he does things that are questionable, and then you think perhaps he's wrong. i don't know what to think. i love that in movies. i love when people behave in ways that are unexpected, or frankly counter to -- as we all do. >> rose: back to the point of view that ben has, that he -- the point of view you expressed, viggo, the idea that you do not want to be just laze fair.

do you want to give room for them to develop, in a sense, not development on two tight a structure. >> the underpitching of the model is based on constant curiosity, absolute honesty, and open discourse. now, he goes too far in some areas, but i think the foundation is good. there are many things i admire about him. in reading the script, i can identify with that. it made me laugh, it moved me.

then at some point later in the script, i thought, that's too much, he's not even realizing as much as he's against rigidity, intolerance, authoritiarianism he's engaging in that thing he's against. >> the movie is bookended by grief, that something happens that's quite tragic, and many people are behaving in ways, as we all do, when we're suffering, devastated, in ways we may not be proud of. >> rose: take a look at this. this is on that point. >> >> we can't go to mommy's

funeral. we have to do what we're told. some fights you can't win. the powerful control the lives of the powerless. that's the way the world works. it's unjust and it's unfair. but that's just too bad. we have ♪ ♪ >> do they know we're coming? >> mommy, mommy, mommy!

>> rose: thank you for coming. congratulations. great to see you again, viggo. thank you for joining us. see you next time. for more about this program and early episodes, visit us online at pbs.org and charlierose.com.

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