>> rose: welcome to the program. we're in cleveland for the republican national convention. last night was day one, tonight was day two. we'll talk about the nomination of donald trump. >> trump is everything you hate about pop culture and she's everything you hate about politics. until one of them can break the mold of who they're perceived to be and action he do that not words. you know behaving in a consistent way for a long period of time. so many people are asking, is this the way you run a convention, is this the way you campaign. >> rose: fund >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by the following:

>> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: we're in cleeferl cled today, the republican national convention, donald trump has been nominated. a floor fight sparked anger in the gop, it comes at a party tin the party tried to coalesce around its nominee. plample, a charge that her speech was lifted from one given by michelle obama in 2008.

joining me is kimberley strassel, also bob costa he is a national political reporter for the washington post and used to work with me and i'm pleased to have him back because he's done a remarkable job covering politics this year and especially the trump campaign. this is where we want to good. tell me how they, they, are reacting to night blind and not only the terrific job done by melania, but the response to the comparison to mrs. obama? >> it was about midnight last night at the arena behind us, the q, and trump supporters were walking out, went well, rudy giuliani, he got the crowd going. melania was well received 50

crowd and the public in their mind. then about an hour later, the matter hits, donald trump.is trying to push back from the idea that they are in disarray. paul manaforth is flaming control. day 2 is bringing the message. >> rose: speak to what melania did a terrific job everybody agrees. >> all we're talking about is the last thing you want in a convention is a crisis and if you are going to do it have crisis management. this is not what's happening today. >> rose: the absence of vetting the absence of someone saying you can't do this on the fly. >> trump's a candidate who does not embrace organization. even the party insiders i've been talking today would wish trump would have some coherent

strategy dealing with the party. they said they wanted to be out there to help melania trump, help donald trump. but there wasn't a communicated strategy about how to do this. the other thing about melania trump. she is an intensive private person. she doesn't like to go into the spotlight. she worked on the speech for weeks, on a lot of it herself but with speech writers. she wanted to show herself as someone who has european roots, takes great pride in america. they feel so bad for her she so rarely does this. >> rose: i thought that was a superb performance, for someone who doesn't. but what do they have to do to gain the fact that we have a message and a mission? >> what you're going to see in chris christie, the red meat

speech, and two key fronts. the family is going to speak, you're going to see some of trump's children. tiffany trump, some of the sons will be speaking tonight, trying to introduce their father to the country. a father who often has hard edges in the public's estimation. people from congress trying to -- a lot of people were reluctant to be here from congress but those who have come are here to try to sell trump. >> rose: what can paul ryan do? let me make one suggestion, he can point out there is more in common to have with donald trump than differences. >> that's one major thing can he do. when project a sense there's going to be some unity at the top in the party. the other thing can he do is provide what has been missing on the trump campaign. that worries a lot of the scefts on the fence about trump, that is, what is the policy agenda, what does a trump presidency look like?

i think what you'll see paul ryan do tonight is express his house vision, six part plan that he's been working on that goes to property reform, entitlement reform, tax reform talk about the ideas. while these are not necessarily all trump's ideas, trump having expressed a willingness to work with the house leadership, i think you'll just see a little bit of gliding through that and just his projection that this is what the party stands for. >> it's jarring though, because you look at paul ryan, someone who last come up through the ideologic ranks of the republican party and when you look at night one's pitch, it's a grievance message, antigrievance message, populace, you don't hear about tax reform. >> rose: do you think christie will overwhelm it? >> i think he'll talk about governorship in places like

republican party has done well in the states too. >> rose: politically -- >> domestic policy wise. >> rose: can the argument be made people will be reporting on his speech by saying he's lost his popularity in his home state? >> this is true but to the fact that chris christie stands for a different part of the republican party, people worrying about the health of the gop, look out in the states and they've got over 30 governorships and have been successful in a lot of them. >> rose: when trump talked about the convention before it began, he said i don't want to be boring, i don't want this campaign, this convention have people not be excited. i want it to have entertainment value. >> use the term show bis. >> does he have it so far? >> not really. it's been a lot of duck dynasty, some soap opera stars. we haven't -- this has actually been a convention that's been more conventional than we would have thought with donald trump

at the top of the ticket. i think in part it's because this is a party that still doesn't really understand how to deal with its nominee and we also have a celebrity culture, hollywood is not exactly rushing to be here in cleveland. with a controversial plan. >> rose: and we have a nominee who doesn't quite understand the party, both of those are working? >> the republican party is more like a vessel. this is not just celebration of trump but there's this friction here between those who come here to be rah-rah for drump and party-unit. not commingling in a perfect fashion. >> rose: if the republican party wants to enhance its possibilities in the general election, what do they need to do and say at this convention? >> the very first thing they have to do is oouf unify the delegates who are here. with the delegates on the floor i'm not talking about the never

trump movement, i'm talking about the delegates who were legitimately interested in having a different set of rules than actually came out. they felt very dismissed by the leadership at the top, some of them walked out. so there has ton a unification -- to be a unification there. the party has to project a more inclusive message out there to more people in the country. you look at the statistics. i tell you what mitt romney lost the election because he didn't get enough of the hispanic vote. this is not a good thing for donald trump in the polls in that regard, the republican party will have to become more friendly. they have said they will do a tour talk to the minorities, the truth will be whether they have the commitment to the quest. >> rose: and whether it's too late. >> we're down to the last few months here and they have a number of things they need to get together. >> rose: and his speech on thursday night and then the first debate.

>> part of it also was the vice presidential selection. >> rose: how did that go? >> it was a rocking rollout. it is also a jarring are selection. the indiana governor, last of mention of social issues. trump is not pushing a social agenda the way many republican candidates have in the past few years. an overture to the movement those religious conservatives trying to reassure them but what the members of the republican party have liked about trump, in spite of his broader role he could maybe have a broader appeal. >> rose: what is your reporting directed to over the next 24 hours? >> on two fronts, on trump's campaign organization, can they survive and enduren in this convention, a stumbling day 1, a hall that was nearly empty,

senator ernst of iowa, and right wing celebrities on stage, can trump truly speak and translate his nationalism and his economic populism, to a country that seems eeg are for change but still skeptical for donald trump. >> rose: thank you, we'll be right back, stay with us. joining me is mike murphy, a gop strategist and host of the right gop political podcast and matthew dowd, former strategist of george w. bush's campaign. day 1 first how did it go? >> they probably had a good moment and a nonresentment moment, and they week up this morning and find it's immaterial. very bumpy. >> rose: what about speech writing? >> the most popular intern, file

them apologize and change the channel. but the trump group doesn't do that, they dig in. he that is superman thing never admits fault but here we are still talking about it. >> rose: you have said mr. dowd this seems to be acoalition of the unwilling. >> the feel of the convention, i've been to a lot of district attorney conventions both covering it and being involved in organizing it. you go in the hall you talk to the delegates you're with the people. there doesn't seem to be a huge momentum like i can't wait to go out on friday and start campaigning for donald trump. there doesn't seem to be agreat movement to sort of we're going to take america and it's going to be a great thing. going through the course of the first day when you finish a primary campaign you have a few moments that you control and you have to control those well. one of the moments is the rollout of the vice presidential nominee. that was not done well. i think mike pence is a good pick for donald trump but the

process and roll out of it was done badly. >> first time a presumptive nominee has come to introduce his wife. >> he did a good job but all we're talking about today is whether or not the speech was plagiarized and how badly the trump campaign has handled it. they have no real campaign organization and they've never had a real campaign organization and the fact that it was personality driven helped them a lot now you see the problem when you have no campaign organization. >> it was a staff error that they compounded which is now calling under question the whole effectiveness of the campaign. a lot of the practical politician he in the delegate world were shaky when they came here. now they see a campaign that can't seem to execute itself out of a small problem. the bust of fort dix after you get drafted, it is an entirely joy isless convention. >> rose: what does he have to

do? >> he needs to give a speech that is more than a drunk wedding host. let me tell you about fish sticks, you know how can he get. that's not -- >> rose: you worked in the campaign. >> in the republican primary where it was about organizing a lot of kind of angry older white guys. now we've got a different elect ral rat. he's an unfavorable guy but this is an opportunity to do something about that. but my big question is, will he do that move the ball forward a little bit bit or is he bristling with resentment about the melania issue. and will they throw the script out and get trump unleashed? >> rose: he needs to give a well-written speech? >> a speech that is wider appeal than here is what i'm proud of,

which is i don't think he can do. >> 90% of it has to did with the last two nights. 90% of any momentum comes in the last two nights and 80% of that comes from the last night. i remember we tracked al gore's convention in 2000. the first three nights were awful, it didn't move at all. the last night, the kiss that happened, he moved eight points in two days. if he gives a speech he can get into a tie with hillary clinton. because next week -- right now she's five or six points behind. if he leaves this convention and still behind hillary clinton, huge problem. >> they have certain structural advantages in the demography. they want to lock in that five or six point lead and sit on the clock for the rest of the time and he's capable of helping them do that. >> rose: reaching out to the trump voters, trying hard now. >> she has to fix hillary, she's

the default choice she's got to get out in her own way. they are inept in their own way they have two candidates that are good at making it worse than themselves. but she has a larger set of possibilities her problems is not as bad as trump's crf part of history the way the candidates are moving. >> hillary is the second most unpopular candidate to be nominated by a major party, the only person she's winning is she's up against most unpopular person to be nominated by a major party. >> rose: the two people the least popular in a long time. >> i think that says our system is broken. the way the two-party system is in place today we are nominating candidates that don't have a national appeal in a way that's broad enough to yooufnt the country. -- unify the country. watch the course of events, watch the appeal of both

political parties. the system is broken and this is the result of it. >> rose: having looked at campaigns and participated in them, there is the period between then and the summer and then there's labor day and then there's debates. >> right. >> rose: give me a sense of what happens during those periods. >> you try come out of the there convention with the general election frame of mind. and the favor of the election favors you and then you try -- >> rose: but in terms of what obama did to -- >> there's a historical democratic play book, hillary's doing that right now, she has $40 million in tv ads, trump doesn't have any. the question is can th trump do himself some good or is he just

running the primary campaign, where he goes to the name state and rants and raves, that's not enough. >> i think the campaign will be divided into two different sections, predebate and postdebate. these candidates are exceedingly welt defined. >> rose: they are not only candidates but people. >> in personality and performance. the only thing that can change that is a debate where 80 million will watch. >> rose: september-something. >> if trump agrees to the debate, there is some question he may not agree to it who knows. >> rose: you would see that as an opportunities? >> i think he sees it as afternoon opportunity but there's a risk. nald trump never went one onne one with anybody. that's different than one on 11 or one on ten or one on seven.

that's a different thing for him. >> the question will be, these people are very dug into what they are. they know what an ironman movie is, so the question is who can break out of their shell and grow a little bit. can trump have a third act beyond the republican primary shoulschtick he's doing. my feeling he's become worst since he was the presumptive nominee. trump has the psychology of appealing to the room and he's got to go beyond the room and the room in the republican sequential not enough. >> a person who makes all decisions on gut instinct, which he seems to do, everything is on feel, that's an asset, that allows him to do a lot of things, feel the room and what's going on in the country. the problem is when you have to grow as a candidate and meet the moment, it's very hard for a gut

instinct candidate to grow. >> rose: it play be in hi dna that he cannot change. >> since we came down the escalator, he hasn't changed. >> rose: to look at a speech he gave, can you say he can do more like that than he has in having a great perform on thursday night. >> there's been five minute, 15 minute interludes, he immediately goes back to donald trump. he could be elected president of the united states -- >> rose: what is the pathway? >> i think 1, he's going to have to show up and be disciplined in a debate. he's got to be -- and he's got to convey to voters that they want change but it's not scary change. >> rose: he has to convey to the republican party i'm here i'm a good republican, i need you i need your organization and i'll be there to help you. >> but if he starts performing better the what's going to happen crowd, which doesn't

include all republicans the most will fall into line. >> rose: like winning. >> exactly. the problem is he's got to be very untrump-like. he does question the premise you knuckle head, all the people said i wouldn't lose and i'm the nominee. 48, 47% of 28 mil republican primary voters, who are older whiter more trumpian, much less trump-favorable which is why his numbers aren't so good. so i don't think he may not understand that he's in a new arena now. >> rose: how would you define her trust issue? >> to me i'll start with the broad thirpg. we -- thing. we seem to have two major nominee whots don't own a mirror, their own responsibility for the position they're in. donald trump we've talked about

him but hillary clinton seems, every time you say she lacks trust, it's been that congress that's doing all this stuff and investigating me, she doesn't capture the idea that there's something about her that be the people don't trust. >> the reason the polling is so bad for both of them is they are both defined about their negatives. trump is everything you hate about pop culture and hillary is everything you hate about politics. who they are perceived to be, action he do that not words. voog a consistent reaction. >> neither will break that mode and somebody will be elected with 42, 43% of the vote, and 53% of the country come election day is going to be pissed off. and we're going to be worse than we are now. >> the numbers may be a little

bit higher. but in the tie, her mediocre beats trump's plead yoker campaign. >> rose: great to see you. we'll be right back fm stay with us. we continue our coverage of the republican national convention with dan balz, chief correspondent at the washington post an also mike allen, chief white house correspondent for politico. i'm pleased to have both of them welcome. >> is maples street theater going on? >> lined up all kinds of people, making all kinds of speeches, it has the feeling of a convention. >> going on inside the hall. >> dan so far what? >> why? >> rose: why too, yes. >> tough opening day for donald trump in the trump campaign and started out with paul mataforth,

getting in a fight with the host governor who happens to be against for trump or going inside the hall, both inside the hall in the afternoon. the evening should be good. in many ways it was. >> rose: she gave a good speech. >> she did give a good speech but why wasn't it the last speech of the evening? >> who vetted general flynn's speech because it was 26 minutes long or thereabouts, and it jusk very well and he didn't seem well prepared to deliver it. joanie ernst, one of the rising stars of the republican party ends up speaking at 11:15 or thereabouts. to a largely empty hall, she was seeing empty seats and the backs of people walking out. >> rose: what do you do to fix that have a good day good evening tonight? >> charlie it's going to take ploarng that and dan and his colleagues have a piece in the washington post about how

disconsulate republicans are because of this. like what this happened is all the different elements that we just talked about. laying bare the weaknesses in this campaign. dan was here, you talked to him about the campaign. they were brag going the bare bones campaign about the small campaign staff, 10% of the democratic convention, 20% of hillary clinton staff. but with the vetting we saw the cost of that and we also saw the cost of having donald trump so involved, such a cult of personality. they were bragging about it earlier, the fact that he was so involved in the schedule, the reason why the networks didn't have a line by line, he was so involved in the speeches -- >> rose: even up to the last diplomats? >> then people were afraid, there wasn't the have infrastructure to have questions raised, people wouldn't raise the flags that normally would have in a political shop.

we were all impressed through the primaries of the ability of them to run a lean operation. defy the rules, defy traditional politics. everything on social media. >> and now we're seeing all of that coming home to roost. >> rose: it may very well have been a missed opportunity not to have unified the party and getting the party together because they have structure and organization. >> you know charlie, when you talk about how could you win, whether you are carrying a local sheriff, we did a politico breakfast with the close advisor to trump. he said unifying the party means its be republican versus democratic thing, we want it insider versus outsider. >> rose: clearly her resume makes her the outsider.

>> that's where donald trump has the opportunity to redeem himself. dan and i have been talking to people, he could do a lot with that speech but now he has an even bigger burden because even more he has to make himself seem plausible. so many people are asking, if this is the way you run a campaign, if this is the way you run a convention, what's next? >> rose: take note of barack obama in 2004, made his reputation, put him on the road to the white house in fact. who is the keynoter of this convention? >> trump family a succession of them, usually system tableau, this time we'll have a number of family members speaking. show me the family man, show me the businessman as the republicans tried to get comfortable with trump, the family members they turned to, doubling down on dan, even

couple of moments, the voters who matter, who are persuadessable, morning zoo radio shows, this is where donald trump still has his opportunity and where he has been so strong, he has to vindicate the idea that yes this is different. i'm not giving is deference to the convention that most people do. but that is a very fascinating perspective from dan this these rocky days do happen, trump people are still optimism with all this we're tied, people are starting to say that donald trump will win pennsylvania, something we wouldn't have thought even few weeks ago. >> i would say rudy giuliani's speech last night came as closing to a keynote -- >> rose: let me turn to trump's speech, what is it he has to do and say what should he accomplish because this is his best chance. >> charlie, this is very difficult for him because when trump is at his best he is a

little unpredictable, outside of the box, what he is being told by pall manafort, you have to be presidential, you have to be is hseesedate, he has to do two th. he has to reassure people starting with people in the republican party that he has the stability and the temperament to run an effective general election race and stay competitive through the end. >> rose: and you can do that in a speech? >> no. it's the start of it. it's i mean my feeling actuarial is that the pick of pence was kind of one goes home and says he yielded to those people who have been saying you have to be different. you have to because he

felt he had to do that. the speech again is part of that process. but it's so important what happens afterwards because when you see donald trump at moments seem to make that pivot towards being presidential and off the rails, in an event there shouldn't be any reason to do. >> taking dan's point, republicans here are stuck with them. they warned to like him. that's what's so odd about the convention. >> rose: melania and her speech and the comparison to. eech writer, have been makings a notes and you know and forgot where they came from that kind of thing would that have been enough or even as it has been plaind which is not -- explained which is not very adequately, it's not abig deal, what is it? >> well it is a big deal, it is a bill deeg because there was a huge distraction throughout most of the second day of the convention. and the great scheme of things,

is it going to be a big deal? probably not. but it is also kind of one of those unforgivable errors. again it goes back to the question of what is the infrastructure around this candidate. a speech like this should be vetted carefully. >> rose: would your lead be the republican national convention or roger ayles? >> roger ayles who is one of the most fascinating american stories of all times, fox news who makes $1.23 billion a year in profit is one of the most fascinating. cultural, political, business media stories of our lifetime. and so the departure -- >> rose: that would be the least. >> although we were just talking about this over in our space, before i came over. donald trump will be nominated tonight. in part to be the republican

nominee. now, a year ago, we would have sat here and talked about that and no one would have said, a year from now in cleveland they're going to nominate donald trump. we know it's not as though it's a surprise. but this is the moment it happens. that's a big story. >> rose: plarty barron and -- >> i'm not going to ask marty what his decision is going to be. >> rose: the editor -- >> the editor of the washington post. donald trump being nominated is the biggest most fascinating story in the world. in addition to -- >> rose: >> rose: will be donald trump. what do we know about the roger ayles story? politico reporting? >> what politico has reported is that gabe sherman has driven a lot of this coverage.

but these accusations against ayles which sounded true but no one really knew -- >> rose: defending and the -- rupert murdoch and his two sons who have increasingly powerful roles within the company, are not saying anything, the investigation is done by an independent law firm, not within. >> 20th century fox the parent company over fox, seemed skeptical over roger ayles. that's why first these accusations seemed a little unfair to him, seemed if he were going to go, he would have gone into a pod, because of accusations, the parent fox company, those who had it out for roger anyway they took their opportunity and then today with reports that meghan kelly hadn't

turned on roger ayles -- >> rose: in a deposition she said years ago report -- >> the drugs report, based on 20th century fox did negotiations underway for roger ayles departure. >> rose: kind of a buy-out. it was an amazing thing as you suggested that roger ayles if he is in fact leaving, dealt with fox news, you never saw a network that had so much influence on the two major political parties of america. >> the old days of newspapers -- >> rose: and that was roger ayles. >> that was the role. i first met roger when he was doing politics. >> rose: me too. >> back in the '80s and watched him make this transition. >> rose: we forget that he was the media advisor to george

bush 41. he made his reputation, bush in part he made a reputation in the beginning because of richard nixon, he was a television producer, nixon famously said to him, i don't understand television, and roger said, if you don't care about television you're going to lose. >> i mean he was a pioneer in politics and media. and then became a pioneer in media and politics. >> and charlie tying together your two stories, roger ayles has been accused and denied everything that has been said and there's been no public proof of these things, fascinatingly as dan and donald trump for years and years and years went home and waxed fox news. partly watching fox news he revised the opportunity with the republican electorate. understood the way --

>> rose: converging at this time that he was already thinking about not this season but running for president. >> he saw what was outs there and saw the neafnlg there would be such an appetite for it. >> you know what's interesting you're absolutely right about that but what's interesting about donald trump is unlike almost every republican candidate who has run in other cycles, he didn't think that fox news was the only avenue in terms of media. he played all the media. >> rose: he took them on. >> he took fox on at times, he was on every other network when he felt, played them more deftly that be anyone. he understood fox news but wasn't intimidated by it. >> rose: what will be the issue of this campaign, will it be the personality of the respective candidate, can you trust one who is a establishment figure, one who says a lot of things that people do not like,

or agree with, but they still believe in change and they so believe in something new and put that up with the way the government is working, they're willing to try anything? >> i think this is much more an unhappy choice for voters. everything we know about what people think about these two candidates is, they're dissatisfied with this choice. they have unfavorable views of both of these candidates, at astonishing levels for people who are getting their nominations in this week and next. that six in ten in our most recent post-abc poll do not think donald trump is qualified to be president yet it's in a national race a four point race. this is an unhappy electorate. a lot of it has to do with character issues, trust issues, i think there are two issues behind that, one is obviously security and the other is economic anxiety. and those two are fused into that choice of which of these candidates is able to do

anything about either of those. >> and charlie, partly going to be a math problem. are there enough trump voters and on paper it doesn't look like it but i can tell you that is what the comparison is counting on. maybe that will change in the nights ahead but as of last night this convention was aimed at the classic trump voters we know about, staying this is a base election, they're not going to yet do -- >> rose: isn't that cald well's theory in 2000 -- >> roger stone is bragging about it. >> we've had base elections now for several cycles you know tha- >> rose: but the idea is get out your base. >> motivating is more important than persuasion. you go for the people you already know about it. and the persuadables is not so small. but the issue for trump is he's got a crosscutting electorate. there are a lot of republicans who are not particularly happy

with the idea of voting for them. in a sense for him there's more than base, it is persuading the base, more than motivating the base. >> rose: what is the role of roger stone that you interviewed this morning? >> roger stone has known trump for 30 years, not an official part of the campaign, certainly close to the campaign. he's one of the many people that trump takes advice from. >> rose: question really is, is roger stone the one that convinced him to go in the beginning, in terms of immigration and in terms of the issues, and the hard place that he was, is it stone that convinced him that that's where your best place is to gain traction at the beginning? because the thing preceded this. >> charlie i don't know the answer to that. but the two issues that's been

essential to trump's rise raid and immigration are long felt positions by donald trump. >> rose: you do? >> yes, particularly the trade, the trade issue is part of his gut. >> rose: the other thing we have been taken advantage of in trade and trade deals have been badly negotiated or the trade on part of a nation and free trade is a bad thing? >> well, i think the speech that he gave a few weeks ago which got a lot of attention because it went against party orthodoxy, was important but for another reason. he took a frontal attack on the idea of globalization. if you think of kind of what political world, the view of globalization is, it has winners and losers but on balance it's better than not. that it's been good for everyone. >> rose: the growth law. >> and i think what trump has done is turn that on its head, which is to say there are winners and losers and there

have been more losers and people have ignored them, the political have ignored them. >> rose: it is the democratic party that believes exactly that. >> trump's prop problem is he doesn't really have an answer. maybe he can get to the white house without having an answer but if he gets to the white house without an answer, he is going to have an answer. or he'll be like every other politician that has disappointed people and didn't come up with an answer to them. >> rose: great to see you, we'll be right back, part 2 of the conversation with hillary clinton. you'll see another 12 or 13 minutes of it this evening, we'll be right back. i want to speak to foreign policy. >> uh-huh. >> rose: what's your biggest national security concern? >> it remains is the proliferation of nuclear and other weapons of mass.

>> rose: and the possibility they get into the hands of non-state actors. >> that's right. state actors like north korea should concern us enough you know. >> rose: the president said to me every time they fail they learn more, the north koreans. >> that's what they spend the money on. >> rose: they know that's brought them a certain amount of attention and respect. >> that's right. >> rose: how real is the threat of them having the capacity to deliver a bomb and deliver it to the united states? >> well i think it's a very real threat. it's one i take extremely seriously. they are determined to get a missile that could deliver a nuclear weapon, first to china, then to hawaii, then to our west coast. make no mistake about about it, this is the path that they are on. >> rose: so what would you do

to stop them? >> well, i think the danger that they now pose is much clearer to our friends in the region most particularly china than it has been. >> rose: but even though they're getting better in terms of waking up to north korea, they haven't gone as far as you'd like them to go? >> well but that's something that we're going to really work on. >> rose: and what's the red line in terms of the aggressiveness in the south china sea? >> i laid out what our concerns were back in 2010 at a regional conference in hanoi. and i believe that china has a great opportunity now to demonstrate clearly that it will be a responsible international stakeholder. not just the united states, but the region and the rest of the world, has a very serious interest in freedom of navigation, in avoiding any kind of conflict within the south

china sea, and we now have an international legal opinion. so this is what we have to follow up on. none of this is easy, actuarial. >> rose: i know. >> none of this is easy. i encouraged -- >> rose: is there a red likely? would you say stop? >> we're not going to talk red lines. we're going to talk, how do we enforce the international legal agreement. >> rose: for south china sea? >> right, and specifically calling out china for -- >> rose: you called them out. >> that's my point. >> rose: nobody thinks -- i'm sorry i disagree with that. >> rose: you disagree? >> rose: they said we're not going to listen to it is what they said. >> when i started putting together sanctions on iran, nobody thought china and russia would go along with it. this is the slow boring work of diplomacy. we need to be pushing for

multilateral deals around all of these land features so we can cut the threat of either deliberate or unintentional conflict in the region. that's in nobody's interest including china's interest. >> rose: and russia? >> well, i believe that donald trump's strange fascination with putin is incredibly dangerous. he's moved from putin to the late saddam hussein. he seems to have -- i think voters need to take this seriously. he seems to have a real liking for almost admiration for these tough dictators. which is so contrary to who we are. yeah is democracy messy and you don't get to tell people you're fired, you got to work with them, yeah that's true. with putin i would be very willing to figure out, how best to buttress our alliances against him -- >> rose: are you concerned

anything is going to happen to him with respect to syria? >> optimistic is probably too strong. i'm hopeful, that there can be some kind of arrangement that would you know end the constant bombardment by the assad forces in alliance with the russians from the air and the iranians and hezbollah from the ground. we could stop the exodus and end the territorial claims of i.s.i.s, for everybody to focus on and see what kind of negotiation we could then have. >> rose: that raises the question of the lone wolf and everything that's happening, the caliphate has begun to shrink, and what we're going to see is what we saw in nice. >> uh-huh yes. >> rose: these lone wolves, people not on our radar, people who have gotten experience

somewhere else. john brennan, of the cia, says we don't have a strategy jet to deal with that. do you have a strategy? >> well, i have been for quite some time pushing really hard for a more effective strategy ocounter violent extremism, to go after the propaganda, the efforts to radicalize recruits even direct online. we've made some progress not near enough but we are dealing with knew threat and i take it very seriously. i don't -- i don't think that well, because it's not coming straight from raqqa, it might be engendered by some guy who has a grievance about something else, claiming allegiance. we have to take it seriously. >> rose: donald trump says we should declare war. >> well, we are at war and we have been waging that war against these adversaries. and i think it's a mistake to act like it's the same kind of

war we fought in world war ii against large state powers with air forces and navies and -- >> rose: should we do more in terms of the american forces i'm not talking about boots on the ground, 200,000 people. >> no we surely should not do that but i support the efforts to advise and enable the iraqi army. i support the special forces to work with our arab and kurdish partners in the fight against i.s.i.s, we have made progress, it's painful in this interconnected world, the bad news the people sitting in raqqa can communicate to the guy who drives the truck in nice. the threat is broad but we have to continue to go after it both from where it emanates, to try once and for all to end this claim of a caliphate and territory, and we need to do a much better job intelligence surge with our friends ant

partners. >> rose: intelligence surge? >> intelligence surge, absolutely. we don't have the sharing of intelligence across the national borders. we have to make that a focus. >> mike morel basically says we have to understand what is the appeal, i think you're saying the same thing. how do we provide an alternative, if you don't do that, you can destroy i.s.i.s. and somebody else will jump in. >> we are in an information war. if you really think about it they have an ideology that is attractive to young alienated men for whatever reason, you know petty criminals, guys who feel like they're not being treated fairly at work, mentally ill people. there are a whole universe out there. it's not huge but unfortunately it is big enough. they have a ready population to send the messages of ideology

and hatred into. and we yet have not figured out the best way to intercept and counteract that. it's the most common question just today i was meeting with some people here in cincinnati, and a successful businessman, a muslim american, a pakistani american, said we have to do a better job to stop those kids from being attracted to that. it's a concern in the muslim community and across the country and beyond. you mentioned mike he is one of them we need to get people literally brainstorming and working together through all the bureaucratic silos to come up with a strategy that we then could implement and do a better job of getting our friends and partners to do the same. >> rose: turkey. >> yes, turkey. >> rose: you know the president, you know he's been accused of all kind of authoritarian instincts. you know his reputation you've

dealt with him. what is your position on turkey? >> i like most people who commented on it, really made a plea for democracy to withstand the coup attempt. and thankfully it did. and what was remarkable about it is that a lot of the disparate groups within turkey, political opponents of president erdogan, the independent media which he has been going after and others, all went into the streets, all spoke out so that -- >> rose: power of social media. >> the coup failed. now the question is whether the president will take this opportunity to reach out to those with whom he does not always agree, to really reinforce and reaffirm the importance of democracy. he has been on an authoritarian path that i have been quite worried about. so i'm homing that's what he

decides to do. but i will tell you this: any attempt to make america somehow a conspirator in this coup should be repudiated immediately. >> rose: and gulan should not be extradited to -- >> that is an issue, if they have evidence, none has been presented, i don't think they know what they have, i do not want american tourists, american service men being used by those who support president erdogan in a way that could weaken our relationship. we are cooperating against i.s.i.s. and against terrorism and we need turkey. i am looking forward to working with them. but i would like to see them get back to pursuing democracy, not veering off into a more authoritarian regime. >> rose: my last question.

>> (laughing). >> rose: i'm thinking, that you've said the most influential person in your life has been your mother. >> right. >> rose: and what she did for you. >> right. >> rose: and i'm thinking engaged in this campaign, it's not easy, but when you were at wellesley and they asked you to make that first class speech. >> uh-huh. >> rose: did you think then that you might have a chance to make history? not only as a first lady, of a state, first lady of the united states, a senator, secretary of state, and maybe president? >> no. it never crossed my mind. i wanted to be an advocate, particularly for children and families and women. i was going to law school, to do just that, that's why i went to work for the children's defense fund. that's why i took an extra year

at yale studying child abuse and everything that i was interested in. and then i met this guy from arkansas, bill clinton, i was deeply involved in starting nonprofits working to improve their fates. >> rose: when did you think you could be president? >> well, it wasn't long before the first time i ran back in 2008, that enough people had talked to me and urged me, it was a little bit like people urging me to run for the senate the first time and i said no no no. over and over again. because i really did not see myself in that kind of role. and i didn't know whether i wanted to do it. i certainly didn't know whether i'd be any good at it so i resisted and finally said okay i will try. and similarly, running for president that first time there was a steady stream of people coming and urging me to do it. so i did. and then i, after i wasn't successful, was happy to go back

to the senate, and i was shocked that president elect obama asked me to secretary of state. and i really, really appreciated the opportunity to serve in that way. i did not know for sure i would run again. i really didn't. i started thinking about it after i'd had a year to decompress, and take some deep breaths. people were talking again at me but i didn't make up my mind right away. >> rose: thank you for doing this. we spent time talking about a lot of issues and i thank you so much for your time. >> thank you charlie. >> rose: we'll see you at your convention. >> i hope so. it's going to be great. >> rose: so many questions, so little time but you've been very generous. thank you. >> for more about this program and early episodes, visit us at pbs.org and charlierose.com. ♪ ♪

captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and of multimedia news and information services worldwide.

man: it's like holy mother of comfort food.ion. woman: throw it down. it's noodle crack. patel: you have to be ready for the heart attack on a platter. crowell: okay, i'm the bacon guy. man: oh, i just did a jig every time i dipped into it. man #2: it just completely blew my mind. woman: it felt like i had a mouthful of raw vegetables and dry dough. sbrocco: oh, please. i want the dessert first! [ laughs ] i told him he had to wait.