>> welcome back to the program. we begin day three of the republican national convention and start with megan murphy, jerry seib and ron fournier. >> they said we won't do the policy because it's a pain campaign of-campaign and we expect him to stay on the message. >> rose: and we conclude this evening with roger stone. >> i understand it's a reform movement bigger than the republican party. bigger than both parties. the voters are fed up. this is the ninth campaign i've been involved in starting with richard nixon with senator bob dole whose a patriot and the bushes are not here because they're about themselves.

>> rose: is there a new movement? we'll talk about that and the conversation with roger stone when we continue. >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by the following: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: we're in cleveland for day three of the republican national convention. party's noe last night. the theme for tonight's program earlier this evening was make america first again and mike pence headlined the program as

trump's choice for vice president and joining me now is megan murphy. she is a washington burrow you basically said republicans gathered for the political convention face a host of questions but the fundamental one is is donald trump merely renting the republican party or does he now take ownership of it? >> it's really a question not about donald trump but the party that's either behind him or not. did he win because he was a fluke? a guy that took advantage of an angry climate and the more conventional guys sliced each other up or does he represent a party that was taking shape before he appeared and crystalized a more populist more

down scale, more working class and rural and anti-establishment republican party. i don't think you know the answer now because the republican party here is more in his image and likeness. let's see what happens in november but it's an open question. it's like ronald reagan won in 1980. it may be happening. >> you put it in the context of brexit is that are we getting the sense that something more profound is going on in the undercurrents of the society and is this when the establishment has spoken and is that what's driving this today. we're in a moment that even we trig to step back can't actually see the profound dislocation

going on. >> rose: it's interesting you saw roger stone here. he said this is a war against the establishment in both parties. the republicans and democrats. >> in both parties and out of both parties. i agree. i have not thought it's about donald trump and so disillusioned with politics and want change in how we run our lives and economies and our institutions, businesses, churches, schools, especially government and politics and what will happen at the end of the year is donald trump will really win and people will get really angry when he doesn't live up to the promise or lose and get frustrated. it's not just the republican party. both parties are like dinosaurs

and the meteor has hit but they're taken to their knees and we won't come out of this period until we have huge fndamental reform that changes both parties and maybe makes one go away and we have a new way of governing and running campaigns. >> think about it this way we're here watching the nomination of a republican national candidate estranged from the commerce and the bush family and estranged from the romney family and governor of ohio. >> rose: the reluctant support comes from the speaker of the house, the former and the major. >> and i don't think we've seen anything quite like that even in 1980 when there was a anti-establishment tone to the reagan candidacy he was a governor. >> we haven't seen this 120 year

ago we had economical transitions and technology change and economic shifts that created a time when people felt distanced from their institutions. they were really down on politics and had a lot of first-term presidents and had big changes in congress and what happened -- >> rose: 1895 to 1925. >> you had a big populist movement teddy roosevelt and the other reformers going to wilson. you had a huge change in the republican and democratic party that realigned the party and we're just at the beginning of that period now. >> on that trajectory without a question we'll see what happens to put this in context, ted cruz the other leader of the anti-establishment is giving a speech tonight where he won't even endorse the candidate. >> rose: he's called a pathological liar.

>> they're extraordinary names. neither party is able to meet the needs of the times, period. >> rose: so is it a movement as they're trig to say? you draw the parallels from the vote in brexit though there were not candidates represents remain and leave. does it have significant similarities? >> i think the tenor is very similar. i think the results may or may not be similar. a lot of people walked into the booth in the u.k. and voted for brexit thinking they were making a statement not a decision, right. then they looked up the next morning and said oh, really so we do have to leave now? i thought you were going to offset my vote so we wouldn't have to do this. we'll see whether in november people who like the idea donald trump is here shake up the system quan walk in the ballot walk into the ballot booth -- >> rose: has he thought about this? >> he loathes the process. if it were up to him he's have

business men and people in the services up on stage and his family. he has disdain for the entire process the process that is supposed to encapsulate this moment and he's treating it like something he has to get through. >> rose: so he's an unnatural leader of a groundswell in the dividing politics of america. >> he's benefitted from what we're created. we're starting to wake up and realiz realize how much power we've ever had and social media allows us to find other people as angry as we are and that's what happened in britain and will eventually happen here and tear the parties from the inside-out and create new institutions and new forms of government and

campaigning. i think it's already happening outside the political system with a generation coming up. we have generations that come from times like this that tend to be great generations. the last generation that came out was the greatest generation -- >> rose: of world war ii. >> the millennials are purpose-driven and not as eye idealogical and they have no interest in government or politics. they want to change things and are changing things. they're social entrepreneurs but unlike past generation as they dont see government and politics as effecting new change. >> rose: they're seeing more action and success in their world in silicon valley than they've seen in washington. >> so they're making things happen outside of washington and

we'll evolve to new institutions. >> and what is an under appreciated fact about the trump movement and the sanders movement it's in the dysfunction of washington that nothing happens and trump comes along and says i can get things done and by the way he's not making an ideological argument and sanders supporters say, well, we would like a minimum wage that's a dollar higher but nobody in washington agreed so we might as well ask for a $15 minimum dollar wage and we'll ask there and set our standards. >> they grew up pushing a button and something happen and they're getting that kind of response from the government and they're not getting it and want that response from a government and watched 3,000 people melt in a tower and seen their generation go off to war.

they want purpose in every part of their life and they're not seeing any purpose coming out of washington. >> rose: so we can talk about the political parties change but what about governments and governance. >> they're demanding a different type of system where they feel more immediately connect and this movement is going to be the last dying off. in the future we will see new types of -- it may be more around the edges seems rougher but it will be more populist by nature because forms of media and the way people can connect is so much more intimate though you may not be face to face. >> in michigan for example why is it that even if everything went well in flint why did it take months for people to realize they were being poisoned. right now you find out there may be a problem and study it and work with other agencies and decide where the problem is going to be and come to the

people and say we have a solution for the problem we haven't told you about. why isn't every public health test immediately transparent. that's the kind of thinking this generation is going to bring to government and change the way we do things. >> rose: why donald trump? why him of all the people in america and he's benefitting the most. >> he's the dog who caught the bus. trump is not different, i think, than 20 years ago and he had political ambitions but is the change not as profound as we're discussing and he's just an aberration but if it is him he arrived saying the right things at the right time but it's more about the people listening. >> rose: i heard ron say that in fact this is a profound change that is not about winning

anything. in fact this is inevitable and the impact on the republican and democratic party. >> across the spectrum. look, donald trump is benefitting from the way things have changed. what if a man like hughy long has twitter and f.d.r. would history have changed? we're in a new landscape where not only can a guy like donald trump effect change in a good or bad way but each of us can. you now have hundreds of thousands of demagogues on twitter. >> >> rose: can you argue he got it because he had resources and understood media and had celebrity and that allowed him to jump in front of anybody fired to take advantage of and identify with, to connect with. >> he understands the one thing better than anyone else i think is how social media is used. he saw it's a trolling system.

it's a way to insult people. that's what gets him his attention so he mastered that. it's not putting out positive messages about campaign. what people like is roast each other and burn each other and he saw that way before we did and realized media's a business and realized he was big business to the media companies and fed on that. i don't think the media created donald trump but the media responded to him. it was a story and he saw our insatiable appetite for the biggest circus we saw coming to town and she will have to grapple with that when they go head-to-head because that's not going to stop. >> to pick up on your metaphor that he caught the bus. there's hundreds of populist busses moving out of the terminal across the spectrum people demanding change in many ways. donald trump caught one of those busses. he rides he speaks for a

fraction of the populous and it got him nominated and will maybe make him president but in 2008 barack obam barack obama promised hope and change. >> it's interesting if you listen carefully around here this week and listen to trumpers and the trump campaign to some extent there's the lying and crooked hilary. that's the twitter conversation you're talking about. there's other words coming out now that i think represent their attempt to take advantage. stale, tired -- not just described her but the whole clinton campaign. they say this is the stale old -- hillary clinton represents the stale old politics we have come to stop and to vary. that's different. it's not an ideological contrast. >> rose: because change is in every campaign.

>> especially now. it's the worse time in our life time to be running as a status quo candidate and the only thing saving hillary clinton is the democratic party has a huge demographic and running against trump and he's such an imperfect candidate and what can hap en to us including us in the business saying a populist can never win. the people don't have the power and the establishment is sign and somebody eventually will figure this out hopefully with an affirmational message and take things over. >> rose: explain that more. >> i happen to think donald trump will probably not beat hillary clinton and -- >> rose: because of the demographic advantage? >> and he's such an imperfect candidate compared to her which is why this election might defy the times and you can have a status quo candidate wins. then what happens? people won't say i'm fine with

the status quo they'll be hungrier for change. i'm talking about everybody demanding change and realizing politics hasn't been disrupted. look what happened to the auto industry and media industry and every institution except government and politics. so it can go one of two ways in the next four, ten, 12 years. you can have a demagogue that is smoother than donald trump that takes over the country or a hughy long or a barack obama model who is credible and does change things in a positive way. >> rose: donald trump does not necessarily mean a celebrity. we'll now be overwhelmed by celebrity candidates that understand social media? >> no, but there'll be a

necessity for nominees to communicate in a different way and going back to the beginning of the conversation is what happens after the trump loss. does the republican party snap back to where it had been where a paul line or ted cruz is back in business or has it moved past that? it's an open question because of what we're seeing in cleveland this week and what the party's gone through so far this year. >> rose: a big moment for the convention is on thursday night. what does trump need to do? >> i think the challenge is to make america comfortable with the idea of donald trump as president. can you see him being your president. right now it's not americans have something comfortable with

but he has three months. >> rose: how does he do it? >> he has to look presidential. well, so far mixed results and he has to have a grassroots policy and a reasonable guy and not necessarily a hot head and you get a few big change. a speech at your convention when you accept the nomination is one of those. >> he's not going to do any of those things. his own advisors say we're not going to do policy because it's a campaign and that's different. that's what's interesting. we keep expecting him to change and be more presidential and be disciplined and stay on message. >> it's not in his dna? >> and he's not going to change and keep doing what he's going to do and the thing is he may win and a former obama advisors said i think brexit was a more popular candidate in that trump is and we'll see. people want to smash things and

if he gets enough people behind him wanting to do that he could coast in. >> lets assume he does it and reads the teleprompter and gives a credible speech. because the bar is so low we'll say great speech, he's pivoted and changes things. look at how much the world has changed since we used words like pivot and all assumed you only had a few moment. back when we were the gate keepers 10, 15 years ago we only let the public see these guys on three or four debates, when we were marshalling everybody around and now donald trump is exposed to the public all the time on twitter and social media the new ways we do things practically all day long. he can put on an act one day but

what will he do the next day and the next day. it's no longer just about changing people's minds on one day because they'll look to see if it's real you can't fake your way through it. >> and these are the other big moments three presidential debates with hillary clinton. does he look like a guy that can handle the job in that setting against somebody who everybody kind of think can handle the job. they may not like her or trust her but can do the job. >> rose: that's what ronald reagan did. >> he convinced people they were comfortable with him as president and that's when the inflection point was hit and everything moved his way. >> don't forget, you can do good in the three debates but the acts like a putz the rest of the time that's what people will remember. you're constantly and always at a convention moment.

>> rose: one last question before we go. in the polls in many ways it's less than three points. not bad for a guy so flawed. >> partly because he's a change candidate running against a time of change and running against a woman who destroyed her credibility. >> it's going to be a battle of two candidates people don't like on either side and we'll see whether people get behind the curtain and decide to edge back from the brink or plunge over. >> rose: thank you. we'll be right back. stay with us. >> rose: joining me now is roger stone. he is a republican strategist and a long-time friend and advisor to donald trump. i'm pleased to have him to talk about donald trump and to talk about roger stone. welcome. >> great to be here. >> rose: how long and you and donald trump known each other?

>> i met him in 1979 when i came to new york to run ronald reagan's campaign for president and given a card file and i went through it and half the people in the card file were dead, the rest -- >> rose: old friends? >> the most we are theatrical and agents and broadway producers but there was a card for roy m. cohen attorney at law and i pitched him on what he could win and he said you need donald trump and roy set up a meeting for me with donald. donald said give me the pitch and i told him why ronald would win -- >> rose: this was in 1980 so 36 year ago? >> yes, sir, that's right. >> rose: he was probably 35 or something like that? 34. >> yes. >> rose: when's the last time you talked co him?

>> saturday. >> rose: and what was the conversation? >> i had gone to the rollout of trump/pence in new york and missed my flight and he was on his game. it was the best speech i heard him give in a long time and introduced pence to the media in new york on a saturday morning but gave a shorter version of his stump speech first and pivoted to the accomplishments of mike pence in indiana and the fact he likes pence because he was a job creator andhr he was great spirits. think he's improved dramatically has a candidate but remember he's never done this before. there's a difference between being a media personality and being a candidate for president of the united states. >> rose: being a media personality or actor helps? >> you couldn't do it if you hadn't been. >> rose: that's what ronald reagan said. >> and trump's status and larger

than life quality has drawn the crowds. the other guys run for president with all due respect they're just conventional politics. trump has a charisma and star quality larger than that and his campaign is bigger than the republican party. much bigger. >> rose: bigger than the republican party? >> the reform agenda he represents is bigger than the republican party. in my home state of florida 325,000 more people voted for donald trump than mitt romney in the primary four years ago. when you look back and check on who those people are, they're people that haven't voted in recent year or new voters that only registered in the last year. i think he has the ability to draw people to the party and has the reach to what we used to call the reagan democrats but they're the same profile modern, white democrats tired of losing jobs and communities no longer

safe and tired of the international trade deals -- >> rose: these are who you call reagan democrats. >> you would have called them reagan democrats in the day. and i also think frankly that trump has a reach to african-americans and in the end to latinos that are understated. >> rose: the polls don't show that. >> but he hasn't gotten a speech led. he needs them on aspirational grounds. >> rose: others have led a movement. what does trump movement? >> it's the reform movement people tired of the two-party duopoly and the problems have been created by democrats and republicans together. what have they given us? endless war, erosion of our civil liberties massive debt and ba borrowing and bailouts for the swindlers on the street and the

policy is ineffective, in efficient and in coherent. >> rose: that's trump's speech. >> well, i learned it from him. >> rose: when did you first know he wanted to be president? >> well, i first urged him to run for president in 1988 and we made an exploratory foray to new hampshire -- >> rose: george bush 41 -- >> with whom he was never terribly impressed and mike donebar started the committee. >> rose: and at your suggestion? >> i suggested the trip up there and had friends in the states so, yes. and it was as trump would say it was huge. meaning vice president bush spoke the months before to the same chamber of commerce and had the biggest crowd they've had at 400 and trump had 1200 -- >> rose: what do you attribute

that to? >> the sizzle. he's bigger than life even back then in 2000. >> rose: this is before the apprentice. >> but he was still a national figure. >> rose: because he wrote books like "the art of the deal." >> and that failed. >> rose: did the dream to be president die with it? >> i think he was just toying with it at the time and he enjoys publicity as you may have noticed. in 2000 it was a bit more serious. the reform party was entitled to $58 million in federal funding for their nominee. donald trump being a business man loved the idea of running for president on other people's money and ross perot and jesse ventura was urging him to run but a third-party candidate's

obstacles are too great -- >> rose: and this is 1988? >> this is 2000. then three years ago he considered challenging mitt romney and was briefly ahead in the polls and elected not to run. this has been 28 years making. >> rose: he's been thinking about this for a long time and seemed to get serious after 2012 saying this is doable and what advice did you give him because at the same time he began toying with other movements. others think you may have been involved in that and led him to it. >> that would be inaccurate. nobody puts ideas or words in donald trump's way. he's not a conventional politician.

it doesn't mean he doesn't listen to advice but he does consult a broad crosssection of advisors but at the end of the day there's only one decider and trump is not a confection. he's he'not scripted or program or coached and why he's done well because see him as authentic. >> rose: yes, it's a movement but he also needs the party. he needs to reach out to the people that you know in the republican party and the paul manafort knows and you guys are together and now do different things but he needs to reach out and needs paul ryan and he needs mitch mcconnel and republican chairman in states across the united states and doesn't need to get into a fight with the governor of ohio. >> and the governor of ohio signed a pledge to endorse the

nominee which he's not honored and secondarily, i see the election than past elections i've been involved in. >> rose: in what way? >> the party has given us 30 year of policy failure versus donald trump and everyone else. refer republican president, lincoln, nixon, reagan has remade the party in his own image. we're not going to be the wall street party anymore. >> rose: so the opposition in this election as far as you're concerned is the establishment in both parties? >> yes. >> rose: and mitch mcconnel and the rest of them as well as the establishment of the republican party as well as the establishment of wall street? >> in certain sense. i think it's an insider-outsider election and voters chose an outsider because they have no

more confidence in the career politicians. all they get is talk and no action. >> rose: do they see it as a movement that he's head of a movement? >> i think he said several times look, i'm just a messenger saturday in new york. i understand it's a reform movement bigger then republican party and bigger than both parties. the voters are fed up. i've been involved in presidential politics. this will be the ninth campaign involved in with reagan and nixon and bob dole who is a patriot and party regular. the bushes are not here. that's because the bushes are about themselves. >> rose: mitt romney's not here either. >> but they had their shot and they lost. >> george bush 43 is discredited by the american people? >> because he led us to a war with no purpose. >> rose: and does credited. >> he's not ronald reagan. the point i would make is

particularly bush the son not having his endorsement is inconsequential some will not vote for donald trump but they'll make up for it with new voters and millennial and people that haven't been in the process before. >> rose: and let's talk about it gaining traction. when he went out and talked about immigration there was also an appeal he had to what people call nativism and what people call white supremacists and they responded and early articles pointed that out. tell me how much you knew about that. tell me how much you approved of that. >> sure, i noticed the phenomena -- >> rose: why he didn't -- >> ronald reagan said if somebody chooses to support me means they're supporting my views instead of me supporting their views. >> rose: people wanted him to

denounce david duke -- >> i think once he figured out who he was he denounced him. >> rose: he didn't know? >> he's not a political junkie like you and i. >> rose: he's been a phenomenon. you're saying if racists and white supremacists want to support him that's fine with him he is therefore condoning in some way? >> no, he's not responsible for their view. you cannot tell people how to vote. you say it as if and some view nationalist as pejorative. >> rose: i'm describing people that were early parts in giving him traction. >> i think we're talking about a small fraction of people. if you go to a klan people today the majority are government informants funded by the fbi.

it's not an important or significant part of the trump movement. th kooks out there. >> >> rose: you know the family quite well. tell me about the family. >> i knew his father. he was a great man. vey thrifty and unassuming and hard working. >> rose: his influence on donald trump? >> highs drive, his stick to ittiveness. >> rose: and he was good? >> fred and mary trump living in a i know his sister mary ann trump who is a great federal judge.

one of the best appointments made. ivanka manages to be a wife, mother and run her own lines of business. she's incredibly physically fit and gorgeous and always chicly dressed and on my best-dressed list. she's an amazing woman. she balances it all and at the same time she's perfectly normal. they're very private people but all of his children, donnie jr. gave one of the best speeches i've seen and i've been in the business for years. i think donnie could have a career if he wanted one and think chelsea will do that. >> rose: what role do you expect to play if trump wins? i'm unconfirmable by the u.s. senate. >> rose: why is that?

>> one man's dirty trick is another man's civic participation. i spent 40 years in the two-party system. politics isn't elegant or pretty. i worked in the u.s. senate and house. every president we've had talks about federal spending being cut but every dollar being wasted is put there by someone and they'll protect it. because donald trump is not beholden to any special interest and he can't be bought or bullied maybe you'll get a president that will talk about cutting to spending and talk about benefits to people that need it. it's a dirty system. it's a rigged system. trump is right. >> rose: and you have to be dirty to play in it? >> you have to play the rules as they exist and i've done that for 40 years. >> rose: the two of you had a rocky period?

>> a brief period of estrangement. i left the campaign and gave my first surrogate speech for him and spoke out for him the very next day. >> rose: why did you leave the campaign? >> he had a vision that was different than mine. >> rose: how is that? >> he was en favor of a communication-based strategy. i favored a more traditional strategy one that included polling and analytics and targeting and paid media and all the traditional tools. he was right. i was wrong. >> rose: can he be right in a general election? evidently he's going out trying to raise a lot of money and people say he'll need it in paid media and get out the vote and other things you can't produce by rally. >> i think the campaign will be adequate in identifying and turning out the vote but there

is a phenomenon here that are far more important than paid television. >> rose: they are? >> paris, san bernardino, orlando, nice, dallas. all these things have a tendency to focus the country on the issues and they have the inadvertent effect of driving down the message that we need security and we're against an enemy that want to destroy us. >> rose: does he remind you of nixon because paul manafort has said the speech in miami is one they admire and had read and is in part a guide to what they want to say. >> yeah, that's a very moving speech. it's a speech but what is it about the speech they like? >> i think it's probably the close where he says we can have a job for every american. we can rebuild our military strength, we can protect our

environment, we can have a new american revolution. that's what we're talking about here. donald trump is the can-do candidate. he's not a pessimist, he's an optimist and he'll deal with some -- >> rose: let's talk about law and order and solid majority. >> and trump is a pragmatic conservative who is not politically correct and prepared to take on the country's toughest problems. >> rose: you and paul manafort. >> we met at the 1970 connecticut state convection and it elects candidate by convention and it's where he got his convention management skills. when i ran for nationalist chairman paul manafort was my campaign manager and we were together right up until 1976 and i worked for governor ronald

reagan. he worked for president gerald ford. after gerald ford lost and it became ronald reagan would come back and run again we worked together in the reagan campaign and then the 1984 reagan campaign and became partners. >> rose: roger stone and manafort. >> we have our 15 minutes one more time. >> rose: you recommended him? >> i'm among those that recommended him. paul and donald had a relationship. they met during the time that manafort and stone represented the trump organization. i represented gaming issues and the faa but and so on but they knew each other casually and had mutual friends beyond me and i was among those. >> rose: what has he brought to

the campaign? >> he's an adult. >> rose: cory was not an adult? >> no, he was an advance man. bob haldman without the charm. >> rose: he had charm? >> that's the point. we're talking apples and oranges. paul manafort has elected -- >> rose: you're of the establishment. >> not me. i supported gary johnson. >> rose: how well do you think he could do this time? the libertarian candidate. >> two guys that are friends of mine. year ago they could get no media coverage and nobody was interested. they had a ticket and had an esteemed former judge from california, judge gray. >> rose: now they're getting attention -- >> because the media perceives

them as drawing votes from donald trump. >> rose: will they? >> i think they'll find they draw equally from trump and clinton because the libertarian have a left and right wing. so those voters who favor the legalization of drugs, for example will come from the left. >> rose: so when paul manafort says to donald trump as he does you have to be more presidential, do you agree with him? >> i think -- >> rose: are you more let trump be trump? >> you know, there's only one trump. and trump will make those decisions. i do think that he listens to a broad cross section of advice but if you take away the spontaneity and authenticity of trump then he'll just be another boring political figure. maybe there's a better way to say certain things he's already said. it's a learning process. >> rose: all the lashing out at

fellow republicans and giving them nicknames and insulting them was just fine with you because you think it proved beneficial? >> it worked and frankly jeb bush was not fit to be president. >> rose: his argument was about. >> he had no energy and trump has an innate ability to figure out your weakness. >> rose: and lying ted cruz is on the podium. >> i would not had let that drac you him on the podium. >> rose: he doesn't listen to everything you recommend? >> that's for darn sure. >> rose: why did he select mike pence? >> he's the ideal running mate. want somebody that's not going to upstage you or contradict you the way nixon was contradicted. on the day he campaigned in atlanta he said the nixon

cabinet will have a negro and they said no cabinet member will be selected on the color of their skin. you don't want a running mate to make it up as they go along. he's a solid guy of character. >> rose: he will not embarrass donald trump. but they don't have the same views on trade and a lot of things. >> but the vice president candidate's job is to support the views of the presidential candidate. george bush was against tax cuts when ronald reagan selected him. for eight years. >> rose: there you go the president you most aligned a vice president you admired less. >> he was a pragmatist? >> rose: is donald trump -- because it's been argued he operates more by instinct and

intuition than listening to what people have told him and advised him. >> he operates more on instinct instead of being guided by focus groups and polls telling him what to say to be popular. this is one of hillary clinton's greatest problem is by focus groups and round tables and committees and it sounds stale and phony because it is. >> rose: what role will you be playing in the campaign? >> f.o.t. friend of trump. i'm like sidney blumenthal. i have no title or line responsibilities but have access to all the right people. >> rose: and a lot of access to the candidate. >> he returns my calls and i have enormous respect for donald trump. >> rose: what do you talk about most? politics or the campaign? does he call you out and say what do you think i should do.

>> sometimes i call him. i'm a prolific writer of memos and i know his style so i know how to put together a brief piece of paper that will inform him without being overpowering. >> you said i think the campaign is short-sighted in giving to super pacs. he has a history of criticizing and saying almost they're evil and they have bought politicians. >> for that reason but you can't go into an election with hillary clinton who is $45 million, $50 million in super pacs with one

arm tied been your back. >> rose: and you can't fund the campaign unless your richer than donald trump. >> they're an unnecessary evil and say your super pac will not take money from lobbyists but from individuals. i think if it's be an evil it's a necessary evil. there are reputable super pacs out there and i think the campaign ultimately will need their help or just get outcommunicated. >> rose: it's said traditional voter voters -- donors are avoiding him. >> hopefully the more reputable ones well-run that know what they're doing will raise some money. >> rose: what bump do you think will come from the convention. say he's three to four points behind now. do you assume he's three or four behind now?

>> i'm not sure. i think he could be in a dead heat. i think he's in the margin of error right now. >> rose: in ohio, florida -- >> florida i've seen survey that had him a couple points ahead. but just picking up additional republicans will put him ahead in the race. by the way, hillary clinton has the mirror image problem. bernie sanders may be on board but it doesn't mean his supporters are and she has to increase her percentage of votes among the democrats. >> rose: the argument goes he really has to as george bush did in the second campaign in 2004 turn out white america. >> yes. >> rose: so you're being as candid as you can. what do you worry with respect to donald trump in the campaign. where do you think the great risk is? >> the fact he's taking his life in his hands every time he campaigns.

>> rose: so you worry about assassination? >> i myself as a proponent get 10 to 15 death threats a week. >> rose: how are they expressed? >> usually anonymous phone calls with no caller i.d. standard stuff. i reported hit to the authorities. >> rose: is donald trump getting some -- >> i have to assume if i'm getting a handful he's getting hundreds. it's a polarizing candidacy. i'm sure hilary's getting them as well. >> rose: so you worry about assassination. >> because i have great affection for him and his family i have to. >> rose: what else? >> the clintons will always be better funded than the trump campaign. he'll never have the well-oiled political machine the clintons do but i liken this to the american colonists.

>> rose: like insurgency. >> they can move faster and hit harder and make decisions on a snap basis. where clinton is tied bound they haven't done a focus group. stale and old thinking. >> rose: are you part of the attack of bill clinton's infidelity. >> i think his assault of women of non-had consensual sex is an issue and as hillary clinton says these women deserve to be believed. >> rose: you know them well? >> i wrote a book about it. clinton's war on women. >> rose: expect it to be a big issue? >> that's not just bill's assault but hilary's role in bullying and intimidating and threatening the woman. read what the women have said

themselves. i believe the women. >> rose: it's a campaign issue donald trump will make? >> it's not about marital infidelity or about mistresses or girlfriend. it's darker about sexual assault. >> rose: why has it not gone to court? >> he paid to settle a case. and a network sat on an interview for months and montha the impeachment. today no news can be suppressed. it's the court of public opinion that's important. i have no doubt the clintons will deny it but let the ladies speak then the american voters can decide who is telling the truth. >> rose: there is also the brexit vote. it was about revolve in terms of

people who felt like there was too much immigration and felt they were not doing as well as their parents had done. their income was being reduced rather than enhanced. who felt like their lives were controlled outside of their own sovereign and donald trump looked at that and seemed to identify with it and that's when i began toer that to hear the idea it's a movement. >> donald trump is a nationalist. >> rose: a populist. >> but it's rejection of globalism. >> rose: when you look at him and you and the idea is you think he ought to continue doing what he was doing because it was a winning formula and anything about becoming more mainstream other than raising money might be detrimental to him? >> i think this is a movement.

i think some are misreading the mood of the voters. are there times when he could put things slightly differently than he puts them, yes. >> rose: but the best example? >> for example, he criticized the judge in the trump university case. now, if he said -- >> rose: why had it taken to long? everybody instinctively knew that was wrong? >> because he's not politically correct. >> rose: you knew it was wrong. >> he said the judge should be rekused because he's a hillary clinton contributor and because he's a democrat. the judge should be recused because he has a relationship with the plaintiffs employer. >> rose: that's not what he said though. he said he was a mexican. >> i wouldn't have said it that way. i think he'd admit that himself. >> rose: and the point where was

the instinct? >> the underlying point is still the same. the judge has a bias. >> rose: it's not the bias he was speaking to. >> where's the coverage of the clinton's scam they're running at laureate education. at the same time we're going talk about trump university let's talk about clinton university. >> rose: you think the media is biassed in favor of hillary clinton? >> obviously not monolithically. most are democrats. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> great to be here. >> rose: roger stone. captioning sponsored by rose communications

captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and of multimedia news and information services worldwide.

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