>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin again this evening with politics. we talk to al hunt of "bloomberg view." >> the issues for people voting for donald trump, in a way it's the slogan "make america great again," they said things used to be good and aren't anymore. i went to a town 20 miles from pittsburgh and they had 290 kids in the graduating class 20 years ago. now it's almost desolate. donald trump was the first presidential national figure to speak in ma ma manessa since 19. these people don't have much hope. >> rose: katy tur of nbc news.

donald trump shoots from the hip as day one and as he's doing right now. he's become more of a politician in sop senses. we see him reading from a teleprompter. we see moments where he refuses to engage, but he's still run by his natural instinct which is to say whatever he's thinking and to generate headlines. he likes to entertain. >> rose: we continue talking with larry wilmore about the cancellation of "the nightly show" with larry wilmore. >> this show was so exciting. from the beginning jon stewart pitched me an idea that he thought a lot of voice weren't being heard on television and weren't being represented and he thought there should be a show where that could happen, a round-table type show and wanted me to be the ring leader and i said, no! this can't be happening! >> rose: we conclude with daniel radcliffe talking about his new film "imperium." >> in film we get used to being

depicting undercover with a lot of guns and violence. in reality, if you use a gun undercover you're the worst in the world. you're supposed to use your about and charm. >> rose: al hunt, katy tur, larry wilmore, and daniel radcliffe when we continue. >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by the following: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: we continue this evening. our coverage of the 2016 political campaign, hillary clinton was in philadelphia for a voter registration drive and

donald trump was at a rally in w wii. we want to talk about the trump campaign and the clinton campaign. joining me from washington is al hunt of "bloomberg view." also joining us later katy tur of nbc news. she has been with the trump campaign since almost the beginning. albert, welcome to the broadcast. good to hear from you again. >> good to be with you, charlie. >> rose: i haven't had a chance to talk to you since you were in pennsylvania. give me a sense of what you found when you talked to people across the state, a state crucial to hillary clinton and my impression is hillary clinton is up a bit. >> she is up a bit. pennsylvania is really several different states. two primary divides is the west, working class used to be steel mills, coal mills, now shale out of pittsburgh, used to be heavily democratic. donald trump does well there

probably better than mitt romney who carried them. then the east, forks montgomery, chester and delaware, those four suburban counties will cast more votes than pittsburgh and philadelphia combined and trump is getting clobbered in the cleshes. so the -- in the slushes. suburbs. the places he's getting clobbered are taking off. i think it will take a miracle for donald trump to even be competitive in pennsylvania now. >> rose: is this a larger picture of him, doing well with places that seem to be less optimistic about their future and better with them and worse with those people who are seemingly more optimistic about their future? >> no question. certainly it's the suburbs. it's not just pennsylvania. it's virginia and colorado. they went for barac obama and ae going more decisively for hillary clinton because they're anti-trump and also college educated, which mitt romney

carried. he carried college-iated whites by 14 points. right now she's winning them by about 10 points. that's a huge turnaround. >> rose: what are the issues for the people voting for donald trump? >> the issues for people voting for donald trump, in a way it's his slogan, make america great again. they said things used to be good, they aren't anymore. i went to a little down 20 miles west of pittsburgh called monessen. they had 290 kids in the graduating class 50 years ago. 46 this year. use to have had a steel mill, a coal mill there. these people don't have much hope. not only do they think their kids won't have the lives they've had, their kids are leaving. when donald trump says the trade deals are keeling us, we're

going to turn america around again, i don't know if they believe him or not because if you talk to him, they don't believe some of this stuff, but it is the hell with the way things there r and can't be worse than what we've experienced. >> rose: can you make the case that people who want change want donald trump? >> well, i think it's what kind of change. i think for those people there, yes, the people who are really in economically-distressed areas, again, i think it's not just pennsylvania, parts of ohio, southwestern virginia, that's clearly the case. i think there are other people who want different sorts of change. young people for instance. some of the people i talked about in the suburbs who think we can do a better job on the economy to be sure, and i think trump scares a lot of those people now. i think he corralled the votes of people who are really as you said a moment ago terribly pessimistic. but there are those people i think who want change but they don't think that we're going to hell in a hand basket now and trump is having a hard time with

those people. >> rose: do we know where the young people who were supporting bernie sanders are going? >> they're either voting for hillary clinton or they're going to sit home, maybe cast a vote for a third-party candidate. there's no question i think, right now, if you talk to even some republicans, young people will vote in overwhelming numbers for hillary clinton. probably as deviestlesly if not more so than they did for barack obama. the issue is will they come out to vote. that's where bernie sanders and elizabeth warren and barack obama can be of tremendous assistance to hillary clinton in the fall because there is a large turnout of young voters. >> rose: when you talk to strategists for hillary clinton, they say what worries him is turnout. >> they think trump will turn out latinos for them. and african-americans, i think there is a strong sense there

has been perhaps a permanent change among the african-american turnout. it started with barack obama but saw it in some of the off-year elections. in places like philadelphia, maybe it won't equal 2008 or 2012 but will come pretty close. i think the real turnout problem is with young people. >> rose: is it possible there is a group of people who want to vote for donald trump but don't want to tell you or pollsters? >> that's what the republicans and some trump people say. i don't think the primary polls indicated that. the pos were pretty right on, in most places. some places they were off. when -- i sat around a lunch table again in this little town of monessen, and people weren't shy about saying who they were going to vote for. some people weren't for trump, by the way, but i doubt there is the silent vote. it may be a tiny bit but i don't think of any significance. >> rose: in terms of possible

things that could change a campaign, we could talk about debates, but i would rather defer that. that's always a possibility. but what kind of some kind of terrorist attack, what impact might that have on the campaign? does donald trump hold stronger on national security, having just made a speech on it yesterday? >> he has been doing better on that, and there was, i think, a feeling of fear among democrats much more so than the debates that a terrorist incident could turn the whole dynamics around. trump's speech yesterday was sort of interesting, charlie. he didn't step on his lines. he read. i actually thought when i watched some of it last night he looked a little bit low energy, if you will, and the substance wasn't anything great. peter who teaches at the university said what was good

was not new and what was good -d what was new was not good, but he didn't stumble. and i think the clinton effort to paint him as reckless and the joe biden take yesterday that he didn't know what he was talking about and would be a huge risk, if they can't make that case with total conviction and totally convincingly, then i think a terrorist incident would really scare democrats. >> rose: what are republicans saying to you? >> i think first you're already seeing and will see more defections from a presidential candidate than anytime in history, more so than goldwater in 1964. then there will be another group that's just going to remain silent basically in the presidential race or go through the motions and focus on keeping the senate, keeping the house, keeping state and local races. i think the number of non-trump-supporting republicans is astounding.

it's national security experts, it's economic experts and it's a whole bunch of politicians, a bunch of elected senators, elected governors, and i've never seen anybody run away from a candidate before. with mcgovern, it was, yeah, we're with george, but then they would always be somewhere else when george showed up. these people are being far more public about it. it's governors like kasich, charlie baker, rick schneider of michigan, more senators with susan collins, be ben and jeff. >> rose: thank you. thank you, charlie. >> rose: back in a moment. katy tur is with us. stay with us. >> rose: joining us is katy tur with nbc news, tell me about the man you first saw and know now, donald trump. >> there is not much difference. he was clearly having a good

time then and there are nights where he's still having a good time. he shoots from the hip as day one. he's become more of a politician. we see him reading from a teleprompter and we see moments where he refuses to engage but he's still run by his natural instinct which iso say what he's thinking and generate head reasons. he likes to entertain. the first tame i saw him at a rally was a backyard, private home, people standing around the pool and he was saying many of the same things he says now in front of the 5,000, 10,000-plus crowds. at the first rally he called me out by name and said you aren't paying attention to me. >> rose: having fun with you. and directing me to pay attention more. >> rose: what about the issue now of taking on the press? >> yeah. >> rose: what's that about? he's always taking on the press, but they're doing it more forcefully now because he is down in the polls and he needs a

scape growth and his scapegoat is the media. he tweeted ten tweets between saturday and monday -- or 12 tweets or something and out of those 12 tweets, ten of them were about the media and only a couple about hillary clinton, railing against the media for basically repeating the words he says on the campaign trail, railing against them for taking him seriously when he's a presidential candidate. he's down in the polls, having a hard time campaign behind the scenes are not running smoothly, tensions with the r.n.c. he has a lot of stuff inhibiting them at the moment and the easiest way to pass the blame is to say it's not reality it's a media construct. >> rose: he thinks it resonates. >> he does think it resonates. the campaign just sent out an email so supporters -- to supporters, a media bias survey and asked the supporters to rate whether they think the media is

more biased toward republicans in a number of statements, whether they agree with these statements. and when we are at the rallies, the supporters come out, wait till the end, and stare at the reporters and saying you're a liar and telling lies and you're in it for hillary clinton or tell the truth. it resonates with a strong portion of donald trump supporters and the republican base. it is on the democratic side as well. the issue is there are not enough people that agree with him to the degree that they believe he is being completely painted unfair. rush limbaugh said yesterday he should back off from the attacks on the press and rush limbaugh made his career of attacking the press. >> rose: is it counterproductive. >> makes leaders look weak is what rush said. >> rose: that's an interesting insight. you should be able to take

criticism from the press if you run. the interesting thing is how much is he intoxicated by the enthusiasm of his core. >> he feeds off the room. if the room is rambunctious, raucous, if they are responding to his words, that's when he goes off message. at his core he is an entertainer, someone with coveted headlines and attention. we saw this when he was coming up in the real estate market in the '80s and '90s and when he got his show "the apprentice." he enjoys attention. will that mean he won't be a good leader? there are arguments to that. but his campaign has been like a reality show. if the crowd is not responding to a message, usually a more

policy-oriented message, then he pivots quickly to find something they respond to. that's when we first heard him saying bomb the hell out offi.s.i.s. that got a huge war. >> rose: six months ago. more, that was like in november. >> rose: at his core, is he capable of app hard-edged analysis of himself? >> i haven't seen it. i haven't seen it. >> rose: so he's intoxicated by everything and, therefore, is incapable of saying, i'm screwing this up, i'm blowing this campaign, if, in fact, he believes that? is he prepared to come to an accurate conclusion and even though he may think otherwise, is he willing to listen to people so he can make perhaps a better judgment? >> i have been told there are glimpses of him understanding the wrong he has done or the moves that may not be so wide, and we've seen him turn around ever so slightly here and there during the campaign season. you could say yesterday when he was given a foreign policy

speech -- >> rose: and certainly on the economic speech. >> and on the economic speech. there is talk he's huing more toward message even behind the scenes with some of his advisors. but i'm not sure because i haven't seen it and i haven't had this conversation with him directly if he is able to go back and look at where he went wrong and maybe how he negatively contributed to somebody's headlines or how he could have potentially contributed negligentty to what could be a loss in november. >> rose: what do you know at roger ailes advising him? >> i don't know anything, but there were rumors after roger ailes was forced to resign from fox news. >> rose: even before that, there were frequent phone conversations, whether he would consider advising or not, would be a conversation about how things are going. >> the two men are very close and have had conversations throughout the season especially when donald trump went after megyn kelly.

i would say as somebody who has such a massive deficit i a mong women now to hire somebody in a public way whoas being very publicly accused of a number of sexual harassment allegationsish that to me is very counterintuitive to what he needs to do going forward which is find a way to appale to women. he's brought ivanka out a couple of times but she hasn't been on the came pain trail -- campaign trail that much and hasn't found a way to connect to female voters. >> rose: when you ask them, what do they say? >> they don't have an answer. this is a campaign that doesn't have a lot of answers. when you ask questions, they'd say why would we tell you what our secrets are? >> rose: how accessible is he to you? >> at the moment? >> rose: yes. depends on whether he literally sees me. if he sees me in his eye line, he'll come up and speak to me.

if he sees me at a press conference, he'll engage. but in terms of getting donald trump in a one-on-one way off the, you know, out of the glare of the cameras, that is difficult. he calls reporters here and there, i've gotten the calls, but becomes more insulated as the campaign as worn on. >> rose: what's interesting is president kennedy was a reader and read newspapers but he was friends with ben bradley from the press and friends with a lot of people and knew them. on the other hand, president reagan i don't think followed the media that closely. trump follows television like crazy. >> he does. >> rose: and uses social media like no one's ever used it before even to the point that it beeps a part of hillary clinton's -- it becomes part of hillary clinton's speech, you know, anybody who can be baited by a tweet should haven't their

hand on the nuclear trigger. >> the foreign policy experts say nonpartisan folks have conversations with reporters on whether they think donald trump is fit to be commander-in-chief. the lesson is not so much if he can learn what's going on in the world, anyone can do that, once given the evidence and information. but is he somebody that has such a hair trigger that he can't ignore the slightest slight. >> rose: what they say about presidents in terms of h's riis that you're going to have advisors advising you from both sides of an issue, and what you need is a certain grounding and a certain kind of experience and a certain kind of judgment so you can choose between competing opinions. >> yes. >> rose: and that demands at least some sense of familiarity with the issues in order to make the right decision, and that worries me. >> it does. from what i've heard, donald trump reads a lot, but he reads

a lot of headlines and stories -- >> rose: him profiled. -- to do with himself. if his name is in it, he'll go through it. i haven't been told he has a vo sighous appetite for policy and what's going on in the world. you can see that when you're watching the policy speeches or the econ speech, national security speech yesterday. doesn't seem he's fully steeped in it because he doesn't seem that interested in it. >> rose: reagan was not necessary -- reagan knew what he believed and he believed in four or five fundamentalle things in terms of strong national security, in terms of budgets and taxes and things like that, but he also selected really remarkable people to advise him, whether jim baker, george schultz, and a whole range of people and trusted and delegated them so it was not everything that he thought, but it was grounding in fundamentals with

policy added to that with really smart people. >> donald trump has had meetings with jim baker, or a meeting with jim baker. he's had a meeting with henry kissinger. we haven't heard those names since the singular meetings. he has general flynn behind him. >> rose: there has been criticism about the general's friends who's worried about where he's gone. >> and there are advisors if not in the real estate world or wall street world, like tom barrette, he's not surrounding himself with political advisors or establishment and that could be spun in a good way. >> rose: he's run against the establishment. >> and the 50 or so policy advisors recommended going into iraq. he has a pretty solid counterargument is the issue is he's having a hard time finding

anyone who agrees with him on that who also agrees with him on the rest of his foreign policy. >> rose: some of the things he's suggested obama has been in favor of. obama was in favor of n.a.t.o. members paying 2% of the g.d.p. and came out in "the atlantic" magazine piece by jeffrey goldberg and said there needed to be people to pay more for the national defence and the u.s. didn't shouldn't have to bear it alone but never that we wouldn't come to the aid of national defense. >> and those lines are very delicate especially in volatile regions. when talking about his positions, the one thing that's hampering the most is the muslim ban and refusal to back away from it. yesterday -- >> rose: vetting. extreme vetting. ideological test force those coming into the country to make sure they agree with american values and principles and

openness. >> rose: what we did earlier. during the cold war. and he suggested commissions for the government to figure out -- define radical islam terror and to pass these ideas on down to the police. we need to figure out what's going on here, but there are things that make certain portions of this country and certain political establishment folks extremely uncomfortable and uneasy about what that means going forward and how much civil liberties you will have to give up the do that. donald trump is banking on a majority of americans being willing to give up civil liberties much as with the patriot act, they will agree with that on such a level they will want to put him in the office. >> rose: what about the hillary clinton when it seems

what looks like a bump from their campaign and the mistakes he makes. >> they believe h media focuses too much on his mistakes and not enough on hillary clinton. ththe email drips that come out and whether there were untoward ties between her state department and the clinton foundation, that's a serious story that's getting covered by the press. the problem that the trump campaign is finding and donald trump is finding is that he is saying things that are so against the norm -- president obama is the founder of i.s.i.s. -- that that is sucking up all the oxygen. >> rose: he doesn't understand the impact to say something like that? even hugh hewitt in a radio interview said, clearly, i understand what you meant, when the president pulled troops out of iraq, that left a vacuum where the shia were beating up on the sunni and al quaida came back in but in a new fashion, he said, no, i meant what i said.

>> he said, no, i mean what i say, president obama is the founder of i.s.i.s. he said it in seven separate interviews in one day. the next day comes out with a tweet that says i'm sarcastic. >> rose: and that you didn't get the sarcasm. >> and how dare the political press repeat his words and take him seriously. that was the same thing he did at the news conference he had a few weeks ago in miami when we were talking about the russian e-mails -- or hillary clinton's e-mails and whether russia might have been involved in the d.n.c. hack. he came out, looked in the cameras and said, russia, if you're listening, i hope you find the e-mails, i really would like to see them. >> rose: that would be an illegal act. >> i said duds it give you any pause to ask a foreign government to meddle in american affairs, private, public, whatever. he looked at me and said no, it does not give me any pause, it does not give me any pause, katy, it does not give me any

pause, repeatedly. the next day he says he's joking. >> rose: do you worry about your own safety? >> certainly my mother has. the muslim ban in south carolina, he called me out by name and the crowd was angry. i got nervous that night, certainly. i've gotten nervous in other big rallies, at a panera bread in this country. the amount of anger out there and the negativity you see on social media, i've had somebody wonder i would be at a certain rally because they want to find me and tell me what they think, you better watch out. i mean, certainly i felt insecure from time to time. i do hope that this ends well. >> rose: define "ends well." not just for me but reporters in general. i think we all know we've had moments where we feet deeply uncomfortable at the rallies, outside of the rallies. >> rose: do you think he

cares? >> i don't know. >> rose: pleasure to have you here, always. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: thank you. katy tur, nbc news. stay with us. >> rose: comedy central canceled the nightly show with larry wilmore. before the creation of "the nightly show" with larry wilmore, larry wilmore was a regular on the daily show with jon stewart. pleased to have him here this evening to talk about television and his future. >> as many of you probably heard, this is our final week of "the nightly show" (booing) >> i know. four shows left. i just want to thank comedy central first of all for this rare opportunity, and it really is a rare opportunity (applause) and when we started the show, we wanted to have a conversation on some very tough subjects. we've had a lot of fun doing

just that. really, our show was at its best when the news was at its worst. i'm just so proud we're able to take on real issues and hopefully say something powerful while making people laugh and through very dark days. my only regret is we won't be around to cover this truly insane election season. although on the plus side, i must say, our show going off the air has to only mean one thing, racism is solved. (laughter) (applause) >> we did it! >> rose: there it is. joining me is larry wilmore. pleased to have him here. when i read this this morning, i said there is a man i want to have on this show as soon as possible. and gayle king and my co-anchor were saying how much i like him and the show and i thought let's have him in here and talk about what the hell is going on. >> thank you, charlie. apparently i don't have a show anymore so i will be hanging around here a lot. >> rose: if i'm not here, this is your chair, man.

>> charlie said it right there! >> rose: of course, i'm never not here. >> yeah, exactly. see, that's how they do you. promise a brother one thing and then, sorry, i never really meant that. >> rose: no, i meant it! (laughter) no, i invite you right now to come in here because there is no doubt that range of your curiosity in some ways is the range of my curiosity. i'm just not funny. >> oh, i don't know about that, charlie. people haven't seen you off the air. that's when charlie lets loose. (laughter) i've seen charlie me mix it up, you're very entertaining. >> rose: tell me about it. you obviously were given an opportunity to do something you wanted to do. >> absolutely. >> rose: to start from scratch have been very lucky i have been able to do that a few times. this show was very exciting. from the beginning john stewart pitched an idea he felt there

were a lot of voices that were unrepresented and he imagined a round table type of show and said i want you to be the ring leader and i was, like, what? no, this can't be happening. >> rose: you didn't -- you didnt think when he first said it -- >> no. well, it becomes surreal when they're talking about a conversation like that. at the time, i was 52. i was at my breaking bad age where i should be making meth in a winnebago and trying to get away from the law. that's what i should have been doing. >> rose: trevor is, what, 30? trevor is, like, 15. don't even think he's 30. i don't even think he can drink yet. though the drinking laws in south africa are probably a lot different. who knows what's going on there. >> rose: gave you a rare opportunity. >> correct, a rare opportunity. i took it with the humility that comes with all that knowing how tough it is to do that and then following the beloved steven

colbert. >> rose: yes. and stephen is a friend of mine and in taking all that on, then, jon, you know, wants the show to be the minority report, and we're tackling rage, gender and class. thanks, jon, let's do that. (laughter) >> rose: great comedy. yeah. but knowing jon, on the serious side, we had done that before on thonthe daily show, and i was honored he would choose me to tackle those tough subjects. i enjoyed trying to put humor in there, or as i said find the humanity in it and get if the humor out that way and those types of things. so it was so much fun for the time we did it. a very challenging aspect but a lot of fun. >> rose: would you have done anything differently? >> that's tough to say, forensic analysis and i call it time machine. >> rose: forensic analysis --

(laughter) >> yeah, c.s.i. nightly show, is what it's going to be. i'll freeze things on the set and figure out how to do it. >> rose: yeah. it's tough to say. the show started as one thing and evolved to become another. >> rose: what did it start as? the original idea was to just be a talk show with all panel. that was the original idea. but it proved a little too -- like there wasn't a chance for me to weigh in and we realized early on that we needed that opening segment where people can hear from me on what was going on. >> rose: absolutely. and without that, we felt there was no chance for larry to make a distinctive mark on what's going on in the day or in the world and that type of stuff if he's just ring leading, you know. once we figured that out, it reduced the amount he could talk which is problematic in a half-hour show. as the comedy grew and talk diminished, it became tough to tackle that. in the beginning we had four different guests. imagine having that every night. my head was exploding. so we reduced that to three and

had two of them be our regulars and one to be an outside guest. that proved to be more serviceable. but the show was always kind of a compromise, but i felt we found a way to operate with a lot of fun and levity and the seriousness it deserves within that compromise, i guess you could say. that was kind of the evolution of the show. >> rose: where will you go now? what will be the forum? we want to know where you are. >> "cbs this morning," man, you guys have a lot of fill-ins on that show. norah's not here this week -- >> rose: she's out playing golf and swimming. she can't wait to get back. she's probably bored with her vacation, already. (laughter) >> i love storytelling. >> rose: yep. it's one of the things i really love to do. i miss a lot of it. i was running blankish before i

came over here to the "charlie . there was a show the adventures of an insecure black girl and i'm excited to get back into that part of my career and find possibly a show that works for me at a place that really does work as well, you know, that combination. >> rose: you've experienced what i've experienced for 25 years. >> yeah. >> rose: having a television show where you can talk about things. >> yeah. >> rose: where you can have your friends who you think are really talented come by. >> right. >> rose: where you can share talent. >> absolutely. >> rose: we talk about that a lot. >> i thank comedy central for giving me that chance. i do my jokes in jest because i'm a comedian. i can't stop that. i gotta jab 'em a little bit,

that's my job. but, no, comedy central, i'll always be thankful to them and jon stewart for giving me that opportunity. >> rose: tell me about jon stewart. >> he's like a mountain man now. >> rose: he shows up with the beard and at the democratic convention with colbert. >> yes. >> rose: i'm starting to call him the incubator of everything. >> yeah, he is comedy yoda. (laughter) he really is. you have to go and train with him -- (talking like yoda) (laughter) but he's this wise sage we all want to please at one point when we were all working for him, but whose voice and talent is so large, you can't appreciate it unless you're working for him. what jon did, which is impossible to match, i don't care who you are, is he wrote an amazing editorial every single day. that's his talent is being able to disstill until what was

really important and what he felt needed to be said and he was passionate about those things all the time, and if he wasn't he did a good job -- >> rose: overcovering it up. exactly. >> rose: someone said the key to that business is sincerity and once you can fake that, you've got it made. >> i think john wayne may have said that. >> rose: but jon stewart i don't really know well, but everybody i talk to has played a role in terms of wanting to push then to the ellen, wanting to see -- to the edge, want to see them be employed and have an opportunity, and the collection of people. what we forget about is that the daily show, people came and went to do other things, the whole range of years it was on the air, 15? >> yeah, 15, 16. and jon's blessing and with the

freedom to come back and he freely shared the stage. in the glory tas with steve correll and stephen colbert taking up all the oxygen, jon just sat back and let them run it. >> rose: sharing a stage with steve correll and stephen colbert. >> stephen colbert inhales oxygen and exhales funny. he's funny all the time. >> rose: he's a perfect -- when you go to do a show it takes time to define who you are, what you're doing, because you don't want to simply say i have been doing what i have been doing, you want to take a new idea and apply it in a different format. it's not easy. >> it's not easy. stephen is smart and talented and has such a big fan base that

i'm not worried about stephen. >> rose: i'm not worried about you either. >> i'm excited. i'm always sad when things go away especially for your cast and crew, but i always look forward and i'm so excited about the different opportunities. i've always been interested in mentoring young writers and young producers and people who you see that unit would be good for them to get a chance to get in the business, you know, and to make their mark, you know, especially people that don't always get that chance. >> rose: great to have you. my pleasure. >> rose: we'll be right back. stay with us. >> rose: daniel radcliffe is here, stars in a new film called "imperium," he plays an undercover f.b.i. agents and infiltrates a white supremacy group planning on building a dirty bomb, inspired by michael german who successfully infiltrated white supremacist groups in the '90s.

the trailer for "imperium." >> you see the type of organization we have here. could always use a man like you, nathan. educated, war veteran, clean record. >> what's your real objective? just revolutionary activity we're talking about here. >> i need an informant to get in there and make a difference. >> we are a thinking man's soldiers. first there, and then here. >> we know where you live. i can't defend myself! you have the skills. i'm relating to these guys as human beings. >> you see what you want to see. but just because you're not looking at something -- >> get your hands off me! -- doesn't mean it's not there. >> okay there, nate?

big things are coming. imagine a terrorist plot. t's morning in america. there's a new day coming! >> are you a cop? these guys are fanatic. they will not be taken alive. >> for evil to triumph, it only takes good men to do nothing. >> let me ask you something, what's your opinion on infiltration? >> you ask someone. like they say to the rallies, look to the left, look to the right, one of these people is a

snitch. look to the left. >> rose: i am pleased to have daniel radcliffe back at this table. wow. >> yeah. heavy going. >> rose: it's a war you don't know. >> no, it's a war i have to research and read a lot about. there is sop very depressing reading. we don't have the klan in the u.k., but we have a lot of right-wing skinheads. i've seen our version of those guys. >> rose: is this about mike generally german's life? >> not specifically. practically everything in the movie is inspired by something true, a variation of something that happened to mike or something that our director read during his research. but there are details like mike german really was given a copy

of how to win friends and influence people and told this is the only undercovering training you will need. so we thought that was so bizarre it had to go in the movie. >> rose: dale carnegie's book. they said the main thing you have at your disposal is to make yourself useful. people won't kill you and people won't beat you up if they think you can do something for them. that's how mike set himself up when he went into that world. >> rose: add value to what they want to do. >> his back story, mike went undercover when he was sort of set up like a hardened criminal who would be able to help them with the organization. >> rose: and groups like this are constantly on the lookout for somebody infiltrating them when they think someone is taking them down. >> i said to mike, did you ever get accused of being an f.b.i.

agent? he said, yeah, i got it all the time. he said they threw it around as an insult. >> rose: but also in part to see if anybody flinches at all. >> yes, i think you do just have to have nerves of steel to do that and you have to really -- mike is a very calm, measured character and i think that probably saved his life. as he said, if you try and be a tough guy in a room full of tough guys, you're going to fight a lot, and that's not what any undercover agent wants. >> rose: so when you created the character, i mean, tell me the sense of what you thought you had to capture. was it the fearlessness or living with the fear? >> i think it was living with the fear and it was really trying to show what undercover work is actually like. in film we get used to depictions of undercover that involve a lot of guns and violence and in reality if you

fire a gun when undercover you're the worst in the world. you have at your disposal your intelligence and charms and your ability to talk yourself out of stuff, and also just how hard the work is, i mean, in terms of the man-hours you put into it. for every hour that you spend with the people that you're surveilling, you will spend two hours transcribing that hour. everything has to be written down. nothing is left behind. it's a very lonely life. and i think the most thing that most excited me about the script is you often get a script that sets the character up as being smart and then in the final third of the movie he use as gun, he becomes jason bourne and that's how he solves problems whereas this one stays true to the character they set up till the end. >> rose: dillon roof in charleston was a white supremacist? >> i think he was. at the time this happened, at the time i read this script is the time dylann roof happened

and there was a real reluctance on the part of a lot of people to refer to that as being terrorism, and i think one of the points the film makes is that, you know, terrorism obviously has lots of different forms and even though we're being -- sop people would have you believe it only comes from one source. >> rose: you're having a discussion about timothy mcveigh. here it is. >> you seem you have more going on than most people around here. do you remember oklahoma city? >> yeah, i guess i was five. but sure. >> what do you know about tum think mcveigh? >> he was some kind of lone extremist. led a militia? >> mr. mcveigh was a decorated gulf war veteran. he was not insane, he was not a lunatic and he was not stupid. he was a white supremacist following a plan.

>> what plan? a plan from a book called the turner diaries. it's about a race war to exterminate blacks, jews and mud people. do you know how the war got started? the hero drives a truck bomb into a federal building. timothy mcveigh was reenacting that scene from the turner diaries. he was carrying the book with him when he was arrested. what he was trying to do was start the race war. you're focused on the islamic guys, i get it. we all create a narrative based on what we think is important. we see what we want to see. but just because you're not looking at something doesn't mean it's not there. >> rose: and you have been quoted on this, the question of why they decide to do this, and you said somebody whose life

prior to that had no meaning feels like they're engaged in something meaningful, as much as we want to demonize these people and their views, we should try and find a way of getting them into this conversation. the more you ostracize them and aggressively dismiss them, the more it plays into their world view that everything is a conspiracy against them. >> yeah, the moment you dehumanize them as they dehumanize other people, it's very hard to have a conversation with somebody when you start from a place of telling them that they are stupid or less than you. we have to try and find, again, there is an understanding that we believe miebdz can be changed which i think they can. >> rose: you do. sop people will believe this till they go the their grave, but there are definitely times when former white supremacists have recounted.

for my own sanity, you have to believe that. >> rose: many people argue what we have to figure out in terms of violent fundamental extremism we see in the middle east, figure out an alternative narrative so that young people will not find themselves lured to that because of all the things you said, a place to belong, engage, and you find people who say they care about you and give you a mission, a plan and a purpose in life which everybody needs. >> yeah, everybody needs. and anytime -- mike makes a great point in his book where he says, you know, if you can say -- if you're a guy who lost his job and his wife left him, you can say that didn't happen because i was bad at my job and my wife doesn't love me, it's because there is a gigantic conspiracy. >> rose: who does tracy play? dallas wolf, a radio

broadcasting ideallog who is inciting a lot of violence. that's one thing that's very much true, the idea of lone wolf-ism or resistance is an idea perpetuated by the sort of intellectual elite of all of these not just white supremacists but any terror organization so that means they don't have to get their hands dirty so they can sift out all this hateful stuff and not get arrested because they're not doing anything whereas they hopefully inspire people to act on their own. >> rose: nate having first undercover meeting with white supremacists. here it is. >> guys like you, military background, we need those practices in our security. >> come on, man, i think our security is pretty good. always room to improve, though, right? >> oh, yeah? like what?

>> well, like with the position at this booth and then tell me without looking where the nearest exits are. >> what's your point? of all the booths, you picked the one farthest from the exit. if something goes down weir (bleep). >> no, we're ready for whatever goes down. >> with only me and you and him carrying? >> how do you know that? when you pat someone down, pretty easy to tell. when you spend three years in iraq you learn how to scan a room for threats. >> rose: what did mike tell you about the skills he needed to infiltrate? >> he talked about maintaining calm. he said he cultivated a reputation as being known as the hippie nazi who was really chilled out and no one could ever upset and he was very laid back and he would do the dishes for people. he made everybody like him was

his main tactic, and he also said it's impossible to play a character. he said you just have to be you as much as you can be because you're going to have to sustain this the whole time rather than inventing a persona to play. you just sort of have to be you with this set of views. >> rose: this is the third film you made this year. >> yes. it's good. it's been a good summer. i have been doing a play as well in new york. >> rose: it closed last night? it closed last night, yeah. >> rose: we talked about that this morning over at pbs of how to try to find balance between plays you want to do and film because you can't really get a schedule to allow you to take time off from a play if you're going to make a movie. >> no, exactly, i think it will always be split 75% to 25% of film and theater, but there is never been a play i've done

where i haven't come away feel like better actor. >> rose: what is it about theater making you feel like a better actor? >> i think it's partially a confidence thing, knowing you can exist and do your job without the safety net of multiple takes and an editor and all those other things, and i do think it's partially like when you have to do the same thing every night, you have to become more resourceful and imaginative. >> rose: to make it interesting and fresh. >> yes, i think that definitely carries over to film. if you do ten different takes, you have more ideas. >> rose: do you look at your life and say, thank god, i got a franchise role to play? >> kind of, i do. >> rose: it freed you up to have the kind of career you're having? >> exactly. >> rose: make any kind of film you want after that. >> for the moment, at least. i don't know how long that lasts but absolutely. at the moment, i've got the ability to be really picky and i

don't have to do stuff unless i'm passionate and enthusiastic about it. i've learned in the last years that i will be immeasurably better in something the happier i am when doing it. so -- no, i am, especially when i look at my friends which some of them are in franchises at the moment, i'm very lucky to have that behind me. >> rose: you didn't know it would last as long as it did. >> i didn't know it would still be lasting. >> rose: might they make that play into a film and you play that role? you would assume so, wouldn't you? >> i don't make assumptions. you've read the play. i haven't. >> rose: you have not? i'll read it when i'm away. >> rose: it's a high-priced ticket. >> yeah, i heard it on your show this morning, 15,000 pounds for the tickets. >> rose: yeah. look, i would never close the door on that because it was stupid to close the door on anything, but it depend how

comfortable i am -- where i am in my career. i will have to see where i am if the opportunity arises. but i'm sure at some point it's going to happen. >> rose: anyway, much success. good to have you here. >> thank you, sir. >> rose: film opens trinight. thank you for joining us. see you next time. for more about this program and earlier episodes, visit us online at pbs.org and charlierose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

>> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide.

this is "nightly business with tyler mathisen and sue herera. questionable prognosis. aetna plans to leave most of the public health exchanges it operates in, joining several other big in question now, is o in trouble? steering the future of how ford plans to get a self-driving car on the road in just five years. and blowing in the win. the answer, my friend, is that the nation's first offshore wind farm is taking shape off the coast of rhode island, ushering in a new era in alternative energy. those stories and more tonight on "nightly business report" for tuesday, august 16th. good evening, everyone. and welcome. aetna is pulling back. the nation's