to do now. and then i said to him, i don't recognize you on the public stage. you are this bigoted person who is spreading hate. rns and artemis joukowsky, theew book is called defying the

nazis. and there's a new film on pbs. >> you know, my grandfather gets a call february 1939 from his friend. and says would you be willing to come talk to us. we want you to go to-- go to the first intervention against evil against nazi germany. and my grandparents decide after lots of conversation to do it. and leave my mom who was two and my uncle who was six. and they go to practicing in-- prague in february 1939. and witness the invasion of prague in 19-- march 15th, 1939. and are there in the underground working to rescue lives and, you know, take care of people without are being percent kowted from the nazis. and i think there is something extraordinarily existential. several times in the film both sharps say anybody would do this. of course, very few people would risk their lives and leave their

children in the care of the congregation and go and do this. so it becomes this question for us, particularly because we face a refugee crisis, second only to the second world war, that we begin to say well, what am i supposed to do? what can i do? what should i do. >> rose: maureen dowd, ken burns and artemis jow-- joukowsky when we continue. funding for charlie rose has been provided by the following: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: maureen dowd is here, a pulitzer prize winning columnist for "the new york

times." she first joined the paper in 1993 as a metro reporter. her career-covering poll tinnings spans nine presidential campaigns. she describes this election as the most epic battle of the sexes. she described it in a new book. the book is you will kad the year of voting dangerously. the derangment of american politics. cofounder and former c.e.o. of "politico" writes dowd surely captures the theater about politics better than anyone else. i'm pleased have her back at this table. welcome. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: so this is the easiest way to make a book that i know. just put your columes together and there it is. but it is not that easy, is it? >> well, some of them are my columes and there's new material. in a tom sawyer move i forced my brother and sister to write original essays but also i have a really long essay on my 30 years with the bush family and have i all my letters from poppy bsh, not all of them. i mean i used snip ets of them and how we were able to maintain

what he calls a love hate relationship all through the six or seven years i was writing critical columes about his son. >> so what do you call it? love hate or something else? >> well, i never feel love or hate for politicians. i try and save those emotions for my ex-boyfriends or boyfriends. >> rose: or future boyfriends. >> right. that's not how i think of politicians. but you know, he represents a lost world of bipartisanship and civility. >> rose: de sensee. >> and the letters are really fun. but he loves to write letters too. he is famous for writing notes and letters. the best note writer. >> he didn't write a memoir. and so he reveals himself, he has a book of letters. and then he reveals himself, that's a form he feels really comfortable with. >> rose: describe what politics mean to you. >> what they mean to me. >> rose: yeah, what does

politics mean to you. is it the great game of our time, for example. is it the most interesting spectacle that anybody could observe and write about? is it what? >> well, you know, i watched your shows on shakespeare recently. and in fact, i watched them all twice because they were so wonderful. and i made majored in shakespeare in college and it is the closest thing to me that you can get to being a court, a royal court reporter. you know, it's the drama. how people respond to power, you know. how either they become better people or it corrupts them or the pressure they're under in a campaign is the closest thing you can get to that. and now i am game of thrones afficionado for the same reason. i mean all of those alliances and feuds and trying to get

power is fascinating. >> rose: nobody killed anybody. >> we have 65 days to go. >> rose: trump keeps talking about it. i could shoot somebody on fifth avenue and they wouldn't convict me, my supporters wouldn't convict me. and then he made the same kind of reflection on her, the other day. she could shoot somebody and she wouldn't be convicted. >> yes, it is the most incendiary political rhetoric we have ever heard, the craziest, yeah. you know, i used to call political strategists who help me analyze the campaigns. and now i call shrinks. >> rose: psychologists and shrinks. >> right. >> rose: do they give you helpful advice in understand yg donald trump is the way he is and why hillary clinton is the way she is? >> yes. because with hillary, it's sort of a nixonian paranoia. and with trump, he lacks empathy. so he doesn't understand why he can heckle people and insult

them ang you know, they get mad at him. and then when they do something to him, he doesn't understand. for instance he didn't understand why the bushes wouldn't come to his convention. he was really hurt. but he doesn't understand he advice rated them. >> rose: what he said about their son. >> well, both of them, w, because he said w-- . >> rose: with the war. >> right wz so he can't understand why they wouldn't want to come to the convention. >> no, he's mystified. >> rose: you have known him for two decades. you have this sort of phone relationship. >> i see him a lot. >> rose: but as the person who you have known over the years the same person that you see campaigning today? >> in one sense, the same and in one sense opposite. because when we went on the 99 for aon his-- for rea with his plain with the guild fixtures and double bed and french fake impressionist paintings. >> rose: fake. >> country, so i said to him why do you think voters would vote for you.

and he said because i get good ratings on larry king or more precisely because i get the best ratings on larry king. so even then it was ratings. and then he said, you know, because a lot of men hurt on melania. so he was saying he had that ego arithmetic that he uses. the numbers are sentinels of his success. and that has not changed. he still, you know, even on tv this week he was giving the number, the high number of his testosterone count as an example. >> rose: what is his testosterone count. >> he was telling dr. oz. >> rose: oh, on the air. >> yeah, that he had a really high number. >> rose: do you think that will be in the medical report. >> it is, yeah. so everything with him the numbers. but on the other hand he's completely changed. because he was this sort of bling king, white rapper, greed is good, kind of new york liberal. so you have these two new york democrats running against each

other. but now he is either pretending to be or has more of the into-- morphed into at right, ant abortion, antigun control. >> rose: you think that is genuine. >> no, i don't think any of it is genuine. i think he is a salesman trying to make the sale at any given moment. so he will say what he needs to do to make that sale. like any good real estate salesman. >> rose: you said once i was worried that if i wrote something that made him mad he would sen out one of his midnight tweets about me, something like she started as a three, now she's a one. and then you said i would be upset. so for awhile i didn't want to write something about him. >> i was kidding. i was kidding about that. i'm expecting that tweet any minute though maybe as i walk out the door. >> rose: but, do you really care? >> no, god, no, no, huh-uh. >> rose: do you think he can win? >> anything can happen. >> rose: of course it can. >> you know, but-- i think that

this week because hillary made some mistakes last week, she called his voters, including my family, the basket of deplorables. >> rose: he said one half of his voters were deplorables. >> yeah, well, the problem is then she is doing what she says is so awful that he does am which is to take a whole group of people and generalize about them the way he does, mexicans an muslims. >> rose: and thats with a big pis take mitt romney made too. >> yes, exactly. so that wasn't good. and then the health scare, i agree with david axelrod that it's more about stealth than health. because it, the health scare was a micros could am of the problems she always has had for the last 25 years, which is something relatively money dain happens that could be cleared up easily in a few days or a few minutes. an instead of just being transparent and clearing it up,

she hunkers down, has the war room, is really defensive and secretive. and she is like this ideal stngs public servant who wants to make a world a better place but then sometimes she also makes decisions from a dark place of fear and insecurity that trips up the idealistic servant. >> rose: on that, how is she different from her husband? >> i don't think he, in all of these cases for the last quarter century, he is not the one who wants to hunker down and demonize opponents and fight the press. you know, he goes along with that if she insists am but george stephanopoulos, you know, said that if he could get a genie out of the bottle and change within thing it would just be to give the wash post the whitewater papers and it would have been over in a week. but instead it led to seven independent counsels and the taxpayers paid $80 million t lead to impeachment. so she just does have this

pattern where all she needed to do was say she had pneumonia. we all understand that. you know, hi been-- . >> rose: i think some of the people in her staff in brooklyn had pneumonia or some variation. >> i have been on book tours two days and i'm exhausted. of course everyone knows that you get sick and tired when are you doing-- so no one would have held that against her. but i guess the at right was trying to make it a gender issue, like women aren't as strong as men and she just responded to that. >> rose: but look at trump on the birther issue, for example. >> right. >> rose: everybody says he no longer believes that. du he doesn't say that. he can't go out front and say look. >> actually he said-- . >> rose: geul said i think diane conway asked him about that. >> i asked him. >> rose: and what has he said. >> he says no comment. >> rose: so that this thing that he first started experimenting with that group of people within the right wing of the republican party. >> right. >> rose: that he-- but it's

the same thing. it's the same thing. >> yes, you're right. but in his head, he thinks he's doing what he needs to do now and then later he will be really flexible. you know, he said to me "the new york times" will be very happy with me when i'm president. because you know, i will be the kind of president they like. so i think in his own head he thinks he is doing what he needs to do now, and then-- i said to him, i don't recognize you on the public stage. you are this bigoted person who is predding hate and that's not the person i knew in new york for three decades. i wasn't a friend of his but i would interview him on occasion. and you know, he said i can be that person again. you know. i can be very presidential. but i think he just feels that he's riding this train and he doesn't realize that train is taking him to very dark places that he can't return from. >> rose: i think you say the

following. no one is more surprised than he is. >> yes. >> rose: that this thing, this adulation from tens of thousands of people in anarena. >> right. >> rose: would be for him. >> exactly. >> rose: and it's intoxicating. >> yes, exactly. >> rose: and he doesn't want to do anything that will break that bond. >> right, that's exactly right. >> rose: people who come here and talk about this all the time, you know, talk about, this election will be decided by whether it is a referendum on him or a referendum on her. and the cav yet is that if it is a referendum on her, that in fact, he is not the perfect vessel. >> uh-huh. >> rose: because it say referendum on her, they'll take him believing that he can't be any worse than what has happened before. which is, you know, a gross revisionism of history. >> right. >> rose: but that is his idea, that if it is a referendum on

her, they will accept him. >> right. >> rose: and they don't think he's perfect. they know that he changes his mind am they know he is a raging ego maniac, they know all of that. >> yes. >> rose: but is he in 2016 the change agent. >> but that's why voters are fearful and anxious and depressed. because they have to vote against someone, not for someone. and they've got these candidates who historically high unpopular iteratings. and they seem to be getting higher by the minute. >> rose: but where is the-- if he loses, having convinced himself or at least convinced himself to the point of being able to merchandise himself that he is the world's greatest winner. >> right. >> rose: and on a day in november he could become the world's biggest loser. >> right. >> rose: will he simply raisize that and say it wasn't me. it was. >> that's why he started doing that thing about the system is rigged.

but i do think it would be sort of devastating if he has to slink back to new york as the loser because his whole brand is about winning. i don't know how you continue the brand unless you change the name of the brand to he vanga. >> or go to a different business. >> rose: a business with roger ailes. >> right, exactly. >> rose: are you fascinated by what roger ailes is doing now with him? >> yes, it's so weird. and all of these kind of motly crew that i have covered my whole career, sort of combining. >> rose: he was there with bush 41. >> yeah, combining in this strange toxic brew. >> rose: your brother and your sister as of now are voting for him. >> uh-huh. >> rose: and when you say why, what do they say? >> well, you know-- i think if you read the. >> these are conservative irish catholics. >> right. that's why it's so funny because all the other columnists are acting like they're going on some margaret mayed anthro po logical road trip. they're driving across country.

they're driving to kentucky. they're looking for that strange exotic creature called the trump voter. and one of the columnists said, he wrote an open letter and he said i would like to find a trump voter and reason with them, so if i do just find one to come forward. and all i have to do is go home, you know. i don't actually-- . >> rose: what do they say. >> i don't actually even have to get in my car. i think their essays are really interesting because they're agonizing the way a lot of traditional conservatives are agonizing. and paul ryan is not allowed to talk about this right now. but if you read their essays you can see the kind of agonizing mental process that paul ryan is going through. where they want to be republicans. they do not want to vote for hillary clinton. they want the supreme court. but they can't abide some of the things trump is doing. >> rose: since you know him so well, you can answer the question. is he fit to be president?

>> you know, having covered all these presidentsies, the qualifications issue is interesting when i think about it. because if you take dick cheney and donald rumsfeld, you would st qualified people on earth.o >> rose: certainly the most experienced. >> yes. >> rose: along with bush 41. >> right. >> rose: and along with hillary now. >> yes. and they lead us into, you know, the worst foreign policy mistake in american history. so it's hard to tell. there is a great quote in my introduction from harry tru man where he says you cannot tell in advance how someone will take the responsibility of being president. and also you don't know what historical event is going to hit. like if 9/11 hadn't hit, w probably would have been a very popular president. >> rose: and if vietnam had not hit even though it hit before he was president, lyndon johnson would have been one of our great presidents. >> right, exactly.

>> rose: on civil rights, the great concern for sort of the social measure that changed people's lives. >> right, exactly. >> rose: hillary, tell me what her gift is. what is it that makes people-- she bawked to this nomination until bernie sanders, everybody thought it was hers. and bernie sanders showed up. and he found a constituency that was not hers, young, millenials, people to the left of where they thought she was. but she has impressed people like david petraeus and people like bob gates and people like barack obama. >> well, when you think about what hillary has been through, i mean i feel really sorry for her when i think about this tra jectory because she thought it was hers in 2008. >> rose: right. >> and then it's like "game of thrones." the young, handsome, african-american prince comes along and usurps the queen. >> rose: someone with an equally great claim on history, the first. >> yes. and so she was dumb founded-- she and obviously bill were dumb founded by that.

so you know, acted out and was really upset. and-- and so then she loyally waits her turn and works for barack o back-- barack obama. and then you know, this time comes and she is again almost usurped but this time by this cranky 74 year old socialist. i mean what are the odds. who got-- without got the votes of all the young women without were supposed to be excited by her. so then she kind of finally fends him off and then she gets like, you know, this kind of short fingered gull garrian-- bull garrian who is like a tune, almost like who killed jessica rabbit. it's like this toon who now has come and now is drawing close. >> rose: and is now closing the race. >> and so from her point of view, it must be what the heck,

you know, is happening here. >> rose: bill wants to be set loose. i did an interview with him. >> right t was a great interview. >> rose: thank you. but he's anxious to get out there because he thinks, he said to me, i can go, give me two weeks and can i go find out what it is with the working men and women in the america, what it is with the people on the assembly lines who tend to want to support trump. what it is about. and can reason with them and explain my wife to them. and i believe he believes that because he had to do that for barack obama at the convention in 2012. >> yes, amazingly, right. because barack obama as it turned out doesn't like politics. >> rose: like richard nixon and jimmy carter. >> right. you know, he likes to be above the frai but politics is the fray. but bill is not as much of a pure boon to her as he was, you know, in to 08. because-- . >> rose: he was less.

>> young, african-americans are reluctant to vote for her partly because of bill's record on criminal justice. >> rose: mass incarceration. >> which he acknowledges and apologizes for. >> rose: and nafta. >> nafta is no longer-- . >> rose: all a part of the center when she has moved away from the center. >> right wz what with be more fun just from the perspective, you have defined yourself-- what is it, tell me and do it again for me, what is it that interests you in terms of your colume? how do you think maureen dowd sees the world in a way that other columists don't. what is it that attracts her powers of observation? >> yeah, i'm really not so interested in the horse race. i-- . >> rose: or policy? >> i am interested in policy as it pertains to the person. for instance, you know, i have this essay in this book where i rereported the whole relationship of poppy bush and

w, the father son relationship. their braiding of love and competition ended up in the worst foreign policy mistake in american history. so the family dynamic-- . >> rose: you believe that the iraq war was about the son trying to do something his father didn't do. and trying to at the same time revenge his father because saddam hussein thried to kill his father. >> yes. and i want back and rereported the whole thing. and i hope like with john meechham, have i done a defin tifer essay on this. and so voters go along and they think they're voting for someone. and they don't rellize, and the clintons have been the same, you know, that they are also dealing with this family dynamic that helps determine the results of these huge policy decisions. that effect a lot of lives. >> rose: so therefore, but you are also, you really are interested in the interplay of all those shakespearean

qualities. >> right, but they have that policy. >> rose: of course they do. >> like hillary, you know, health care got skited because she did not listen to bill's advice am and he didn't insist on helping her with it. >> rose: and it wasn't transparent with. >> her my way or the highway advice, it was very secretive. but bill could have helped her. but that was right when the arkansas trooper paula jones thing came out. and as one of her top health care aides said to me, you know, she had a hundred pound fishing wire around his balls, so are we allowed to say balls? >> rose: yes, of course you are. >> it's night time, or it looks like it. >> rose: feels like it in the studio. >> exactly. >> rose: how we intend for you to feel. >> it feels like a casino where you never know if it's night or day, i love it. >> rose: and there are no clocks on the wall either. >> no. >> rose: so understanding what i just talked to you about in terms of what it is that interests you, all these shakespearean qualities and how they affect policy. >> right. >> rose: and you saw a bit of that in the lbj thing.

>> and that is what i meant to tell you about shakespeare. that you know, the appeal of trump is kreelanu s, this longing for this strong outsider. washington has been so disfunctional and ted cruz tried to burn down the capitol he was working in. and the republicans had all these promises about obamacare and immigration that they didn't keep. and so there is a longing for an outsider. and crealanu s was a general but that strong person we saw with grow, i think there is an innate longing for that but then they turn out to be kind of nuts. >> rose: but what would be more interesting, donald trump in the white house with all that might happen, or hillary clinton and bill clinton in the white house? >> well, this is interesting because in hollywood, the only story line they care about is bill clinton as first lad. or as first whradie, which he says he wants to be called.

>> rose: that's all they care about. >> that is all they care about. just in the same way hollywood was mesmerize by sarah palin. because it had never occurred to them that a young, beautiful woman play the dick cheney war, that is where veep and all these other things came from. so now there was an old movie with fred mcmurray and paulie beggaren where he played the first lad. but hollywood is just completely enthralled by that story line. and so hillary has said oh, she would continue to pick out the china and chelsea could do the hosting and bill could be in charge of the economy. but i think it would be a role of public service if he had to pick out the china and do the placement. because then it would underscore how anti-did elu vian that role. is you have women like hillary and michelle in that role who have the exact same educational credentials and qualifications. >> rose: law school and all this. >> and who are doing that. so i think if we got to see bill clinton do it, then we might modernize the role. >> rose: well, i actually said

to him about this, i said look, i want you to give me something more than you have given everybody else. he always says i will do whatever she wants me to do. that tells me nothing. i said what about this envoy to the middle east. you came closer than anybody else has. and you could see that that idea in his eyes, when i talked about t he got-- appealed to him. >> i think he would be great at that. >> rose: that is a nobel prize opportunity and he doesn't have a nobel prize. >> and also, you know, i watched him, i covered him, i went to ireland with him when he was trying to helped with irish peace process. and he knew every street in northern ireland. he knew everything. and i think he would be-- . >> rose: just irresistible. >> he would be wonderful at that. >> rose: i think he would be very good at it. i think obama should have appointed him. but i think there may have been some, i don't know whether there was some rule about it. i guess he can't, if am fact she is elected he can't be a member of the government, can he. you can't a appoint your husband or you can, you can appoint him to a commission.

>> he appointed her on health care and that was 16%. >> rose: that wasn't a cabinet job, was it or was it. >> no, it was just-- . >> rose: a commission or something. >> yeah, it was just kind of like do it. >> rose: i don't think, i don't know this, some constitutional scholar, maybe ten of them will tell me, as to whether he could be secretary of state. i done think he can be secretary of state. >> robert kennedy got to be attorney general. >> rose: he did, the brother. hmmmm. hmmmm. because it will be hard. >> yeah. >> rose: for him, if you are secretary of state and bill clinton is running around the world representing his wife, then that makes being secretary of state a bit less appealing. >> well, that's true. but you know, he does have a predij us range of tal bees. but i do have to say not as a citizen, but as a journalist. if trump is president, i will be there every day from 8 a.m. until midnight. >> rose: looking for what? >> on twitter. >> rose: looking for what?

>> it would just be-- . >> rose: it would just happen. >> yeah, it would just be insane. >> rose: but do you worry? >> but you have to understand, charlie, i have gone through entire years of my career where i covered bob dole, who was very grumpy for a year, not happy to be-- . >> rose: but funny. >> he wasn't really funny as a presidential candidate because he really wanted to be back on the treadmill watching c-span. and i covered michael due cabbing is for a year and one time i said to him what do you do for fun and he said black mul much. i said what do you do with black mul much and he said i put it on my tomato plants. so that wasn't much fun, so-- . >> rose: but actually david broader wrote a colume about something like that. >> you are write. >> rose: he basically said we don't know what she likes. with obama we know he loves golf and basketball and he loves books that he talks about all the time. and so does bill. >> and david brooks might have done a similar thing. that is what fred hyatt wrote

that his big, trump's big sin is being a bore as well as a boo r&b ore. >> rose: both of those. >> uh-huh. he's like the guy you sit down next to at dinner and he just talks about himself. >> rose: when you look at obama, somebody else you have written a lot about, i can't tell, and is it fair to say, do you-- it's not, in your mind it's not weather i liked them or don't like them. >> exactly. >> rose: it's how i see them at the moment. >> exactly. i'm so proud of you for knowing that. so true. >> rose: and so how do you see obama at this moment, obama at this moment in his presidency, as he looks at what, three or four months to go. >> well, his numbers are going up because people compare him to the vulgar discourse of trump. and also i think they're getting another taste for the mish igots that the clintons all bring with them. even democrats are worried.

they don't want to go back to mot el 1600 where donors are, you know, in the lincoln bedroom every night and on air force one. >> rose: yes. >> so-- . >> rose: or names that we can mention. >> yeah, so his numbers are going up because he has no shadows. >> rose: but at the same time, as you know, there is the great contradiction that the numbers in terms of right direction, wrong direction for the country are way down. >> right. >> rose: so his numbers are up and people think the country is going in the wrong direction. >> yes. and i think that you know, i went to cuba with him. and when you're with him, just as a reporter, charlie, and when are you with him. >> rose: you see my ears go boop. >> you know, he's so classy. and his family is so incredible. and to me, inspirational the way they have raised those girls. >> rose: it is. >> and you're happy. but on the other hand, i would only, and if you see in the book, obviously, i start out

kind of to the allly in the tul i craze of barack obama in 2008. but i do think that he wanted to be a transformational president. and i think he wasn't because as james carville ssid, it's like peyton manning not-- not liking football. or like bill gates not liking computers. i mean he's the president but show-- . >> rose: it's not that he-- i don't think it is that he doesn't like it. i think he likes it. i just don't think he likes some of the aspects of it. >> he doesn't like being a salesman and that is why he let bill clinton who lik being a salesman. >> rose: explain him. >> yes, his health care. >> rose: i asked him about this, president obama. and he says that's not true. i do like politics. he just doesn't like what some people think is essential to be in politics. he doesn't like the stroking. he doesn't like the inane conversation. >> but that is what helpings you pass your gun control bill. >> rose: exactly. and she has said she would do it.

>> yes. and also, you know, he, i just think he doesn't like the cheap emotion. >> rose: yeah. >> and there's a lot of, you know, it comes, in a funny way it comes to easily to him, you know. and he had a really hard time. he has admitted and david axelrod said, with those moments where you have to comfort a jittery public, you know, after the christmas bomenting. >> rose: here is what you said. i think you said if i get it wrong tell me. you said he is transformational simply because of who he is. >> exactly. >> rose: and then you said and that is no small thing. >> oh, gosh no, no. no. i just think he was like luke skywalker with the force. i think he wanted to bring together red and blue and black and white and now those two things are worse than ever. and that is certainly not all his fault. but i just wish-- i just wish he had had a little more leon panetta said roll up his sleeves

and use some elbow greas even if they are fighting against you and obstructing you, try. >> rose: so on the one hand this is about america and our leadership in the world and where we stand and what kind of cli we are. that is what happens when you choose a president. >> right. >> rose: on the other hand, as a journalist, it's also about a most fun campaign you have ever covered. is this simply because of, we have the two least popular people ever to run for the office. >> right. >> rose: even though we have had a lot of unpopular people run for the office. >> right. >> rose: that with so many warts and so many insecurities, and so many over the top personality traits. >> right. i think it started out as kind of wicked fun because-- . >> rose: wicked fun, i like that. because trump was exposing a lot of hypocrisies. you know, he turned over the golden apple cart of political

consultants. he didn't use all the money from sterns united or whatever. he was using his own money. and he, it was sort of refreshing, you know. he was pulling the mask off things. he told the truth about the iraq war, that it wasn't-- even though it was wishful thinking that he was against it from the very beginning, he was against it by 2006 when i interviewed him. and you know, he was sort of-- . >> rose: but again, why does he-- why doesn't he just say that? >> right, because he-- because he's a real estate guy who is saying what he needs to say in the moment to sell that building. >> rose: he is trying to make the sale. >> yeah. he's trying to make the sale. >> rose: and a salesman don't acknowledge mistakes. >> right am but to finish, the point then, it turned out not to be so much fun because it's not fun to see hate and bigotry and

muslim children, you know, getting taunted or muslim women getting beat up. and so that part turned out not to be fun. >> rose: for him. >> for us. >> rose: of course not for us. >> we don't, that's not american values. >> rose: but you think he understands american values is the question. >> i don't think he understands what he is doing. all he's doing is trying to make the deal in the moment. and in his head, he thinks, he said to me, you know, i asked him about this. he said maureen, you know i'm not racist, but are you what to say as the microphone. is he responsible for that. >> rose: does he acknowledge that. he is saying to you, look, ignore what i say. >> right. >> rose: just accept me as the person you really know in the privacy of the conversation you and i have. >> right, i asked him. i said what about this violence at raleigh, are you responsible for that. and there was this pause and he goes i really think thatted as a little-- excitement. so no, i don't think he really understands completely. >> rose: do you think that you were not tempermentally as you once said suited the job. >> of a cul up nis?

>> rose: no. it's the perfect job for you. it is the perfect job. first of all, it's opinion. you don't have to be fair and balanced in everything you do. it's about your opinion. it's about your observation. it's about your capacity to entertain. >> i think-- all of that. i think david brooks and tom freedman and paul krugman are perfectly suited to be-- and from your-- . >> rose: you're not a pelem sis. >> i'm not. >> rose: are you a policy junkie. >> no, i'm not really. >> rose: what are you? >> again, i have to come back to shakespeare. i'm a junkie for watching-- . >> rose: the court. >> yes, the court and you know, without gets-- . >> rose: the royal court. >> and who gets the ultimate power over our lives. >> rose: the year of voting dangerously, the derangment of american politics. maureen dowd. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: pleasure to see you. >> thank you. >> rose: we'll be right back,

ken burns is here. stay with us. february 23rd, 1946. my darling-- i hope and assume this reaches you on your return from what must have been a very exacting but very successful expedition. i must say that i would like to begin having a home again. the kids don't show their feelings too much. i see nothing but men's things in my wardrobe. i smell no perfumes. i have been quite desperate at times. i want to go on for whathere is left of life with you. >> rose: defying the nazis is a new documentary that tells the story of weights till and martha sharp, the union tarrian minute certificate and his wife traveled to europe in world war

ii as part of a missionary effort to help refugees. in 2006 the sharps were honored as righteous among the nations. it is a list of nonjews who risked their lives to save jews from the holocaust. joining me now is my friend and filmmaker ken burns, also codirector artemis joukowsky, is he the sharp's grandson and has researched their story for decades. he also authored the official companion book to the film called defying the nazis, the sharps war. i am pleased to have them at this table. tell me the story. >> well, it was-- it is amazing, really. and it gives me goose bumps just to tell you the story. because it is like an alan first novel. >> rose: you love alan first. >> yes. you know, my grandfather gets a call february 1939 from his friend. and says would you be willing to come talk to us. we want you to go to-- go to the

first intervention against evil against nazi germany. and my grandparents decide after lots of conversation, to do it. and leave my mom who was two and my uncle who was six and they go to prague in february 1939. and witness the invasion of prague in 19-- march 15th, 1939. and are there in the underground working to rescue lives and, you know, take care of people who are being percent kate-- percent cuted from the nazis. >> rose: an hen she joins him later. >> they go together. >> rose: at the beginning. >> they go together. they are invited as a husband and wife team. >> rose: right. >> to represent, what happens is the union tarrian church, a sister church in prague says don't send us money, send us americans. we need americans. because americans are the only thing that nazi germany is afraid of. so we need americans to come

here and help us deal with the millions of refugees coming in to prague from austria and germany. >> rose: you were asked by lots of people to help them with their film or help them figure out a way to tell their story. >> yeah, this is really artemis' film and he brought with it certain sensibilities and since 14 working on this story. have i known artemis for decades and you know, normally i'm saying no to all of these things. we've got our full plate. but i looked at it and there was a diamond in the rough that needed to be restructured, reedited, repaysed. i felt that i could get tom hanks to read the voice, and he agreed. and he's fantastic. and i had the good sense to leave maureena goldman, and the story is told without our traditional narration but first person voices. a few inner titles, a couple of historians and then the witnesses who were children, now this their late '80s who were saved by the sharps. and they remind you not only of the heroic nature of this story, of the sacrifice of the sharps,

of its resonance to today with the refugee crisis that we have, but also of human potential y'allity, because they were saved, they got it live live, and those lives are rich and full and their professor he meritus of mathematics or-- but it reminded you of the people who weren't saved, the six million, the opaque six million that we can never penetrate were actually each one of them could have been that. and so like an amputated limb that you feel long after it's gone, we felt that this tiny little story at the edges of the holocaust could actually help reveal it. just as the structure of an a tomorrow looks like the solar system, if we could just take this atomic story of his grandparents and if we told it right, we could suddenly relate to a much larger situation. >> rose: if someone wants to compare what they did to shind letters' list, are you flat erred? >> absolutely, shindler made a moral decision just like my

grandparents. and shindler was also a human being who, able to make mistakes as well. and i think that the courage of spielberg to make that film about a person in that condition, that transformation that occurred and then the lives he saved is incredible. >> and remember how it ends, right. with shindler breaking down. he did not save enough. and that is the sharp sense, they held their light under a bushel because they knew that they had only gotten out a few hundred. and they could see, they could feel there is a wonderful conversation in a ship that weightsel is taking back with a very famous jew that the nazis are after, the french collaborations are after, and he says can i address you as a character in my novel. who is paying you, what do you get out of this. and he goes no, i just don't like to see the average guy pushed around it is this wonderful existential thing. he said i feel something worse is coming. and this is the summer of 1940.

and he can, in turks it from the experiences in prague and what is going on in southern france that this mamout wave is about to break on humanity that we call the holocaust. >> rose: so how did this man, this reverend and his wife. >> right. >> rose: do this? what did they do and at what risk? >> well, first of all, they didn't do it overnight, it took time for them to doaferl the skills to actually help people. he was harvard trained as a lawyer. she was a social worker. they had a deep disgust of the nazi fascism, what it represented for the world. they were very invested in the czech republic as a democracy, that emerged out of world war one and the leadership of thomas maseric which is an extraordinary untold story. and they wanted to protect people. and so my grandfather actually declares war on germany from the pulpit. you know, which is not a

unitarrian thing to do. the other piece, i think s that he had a deep sense of love for humanity, and a deep sense, most people-- . >> rose: that's the motivation. how did he do it in how did he do it? >> well, they got on a ship and he had took a long time to get across the ocean. then they arrived in london and were taught about spy craft. they learned then that they were going to be spies and be, you know, at risk being arrested. so they really didn't know everything until they got there. and then they had to learn on the job in a sense. because everything changed every day. and after the nazis invaded in march 15th, their work went from rescue of helping refugees to rescue of getting people out. >> rose: yeah. after the nazus stop letting people get out, then the war came. >> exactly. >> rose: but there. >> but there was nine months where they rescued we think about 130 people directly, which is such a miracle when you think

about that they were able through their underground, through the networks of organizations that they worked with, to help that many people escape. >> i remember seeing the statue of liberty. >> the best christmas gift i ever got was being brought here. in this country. >> we arrived in new york. and some red cross ladies had a table with cocoand that was very welcome and made us feel that america must be a great place within the american liner arrives with child refugees from europe. youngsters scarsly able to believe they're freed from the terrors of war. joyous a 13 year old trip lets. >> we are americans. we are very happy that you are here. and we are very grateful that

you have us coming to america. >> where do you come from? >> from. >> were you there during the war? >> yes. >> tell us about it? >> it was very bad. we were not enough to eat. and my parents send me to america for my health. i come from-- there wasn't anything to eat and there was lots of bombardment and i saw lots of people killed. >> when are you either preparing a film of your own or helping someone who already has a story to tell, do you then go look at other stories that have been told like this? what is your own preparation. >> no, actually mine is to sort of, particularly with regard to films, to make myself sort of ignorant. i don't want to be influenced in anyway, good, bad or otherwise. so for me it was saying here is the material. i had to honor, things i don't

do. there is some reenactments in this film which i haven't done very much of in my professional life. there is a score to this, there's a composer who scores it to the frame. and i have never done that,s as you know before in my life. there was some fast, quick paced editing that i left in tact but i also calmed down a kind of addness in places that needed to be opened up and paced. and had inherited some stuff that just needed some structural work. i took a very seminal letter at the end of the film, left it there but took parts of it to the beginning that invite you in in an intimate way to sacrifice on lots of level. so you understand the broader sense of sacrifice, that we're going to go help. we're going to put our kids in the care of the congregation, we're going to abandon them so we can go and save other people's children. and he understand the larger threat of naziism to world history but there is also a dynamic which is the threat to their relationship because they are altering an established dynamic. she is a social worker.

she is a feminist in every sense of the word. is he the epitome of an american. if tom hanks wasn't around to do this and we could go back in time, jimmy stewart would have to do this because he is that ultimate american that has enough giel but also a sense of fairness. and he describes in his letters and his journals that, you know, he's laundering money in european capitals and he is saying i was beyond the pale. he had never been good at this sort of thing and now he was good at it and it was motivated by this profound anger and the arrogance to be able to declare rose: were there a lot of people like him in the untarrian church or were they, a lot of people asked and said no. >> there were a lot of people in the untarrian church. this was an effort of the entire church that supported them and other leaders that invited them to go. but they were the ones that went. that is the interesting story, why they went. >> yeah, 17 people turned down the leadership before they went to the sharps.

and they said yes. and it is telling. and then they came back and one assumes they assumed that they would be sitting around the fire telling these stories for the rest of their lives. and the church says we need you to go back. and they're going no way, and they go back. and what is so interesting is that that seminal second trip in southern france in occupied southern france is just an amazing transformation for both of them. and begins to set in motion events that they can't predict that our audience can't predict, that sort of are smaller than but also transcend the larger story of what is going on. i found this irresistible. >> rose: the film is being screened at the white house in a conversation about the syrian refugee crisis, correct. >> that's right. it happened on monday. >> rose: it is already done. >> yeah. >> rose: what happened? >> you share the story. >> it was a wonderful event. because we had some policy folks who are dealing with policy but also the individual narratives of refugees right now.

an here you have a story that identifies it. and i think there is something extraordinarily existential. several times in the film bots sharps sort of say anybody would do this. of course, very few people would risk their lives and leave their children in the care of the congregation and go and do this. so it becomes this question for us, particularly because we face a refugee crisis second only to the second world war, that we begin to say well, what am i supposed to do. what can i do. what should i do. and it was a wonderful conversation with an audience that even included a college student who said i'm in college but what can i do. can i take somebody in my dorm room. >> rose: at the white house. >> in the executive office building next door. a wonderful dynamic between narrative history, mem ore, the irpt massee of the personal story with the larger issue, of policy which never change. right? we had a state department in the 1930st and early 40see that was very anti-semitic that was keeping jaws from coming to the united states. we could have done a lot more.

and now we're dealing with a policy that's sort of trying to draw the circle and it is suspicious of that and we have syrian refugees an refugees from africa an asia and other places that need to be taken in. this is a human dilemma. and i think the sharps-- . >> rose: isn't this a question of presidential leadership. >> and the president is coming to the u.n. and is going to focus a great deal of attention on refugees. i think it is good to have these historical ant sed ents. we talked about this many, many times that the past is present. that if you do history right it is resonating with everything going on right now. so that with our intention, our intention is it is hard to tell a good story. we work three years, i worked three years, artemis has worked for decades on this. and i spent the last three years at night on the weekends trying to refine and shape this. so we are not thinking about it. but once it's done, in your hands charlie, all of a sudden it does speak to a contemporary refugee crisis and maybe it

helps put human dimensions and maybe there is somebody out there who says maybe i can convince my church to bring a family or a couple families or maybe i can go and do something. we have already seen it happen among the folks who have been in the larger family of this story. >> exangtly. >> rose. >> one of the most exciting thing is we have a sharp prize where we are giving it to rescuers today, going to lesbos helping people today. trying to create an inspiration not just about the sharps but what is altruism. how do we encourage altruism, how do we understand what happens when someone chooses to take this risk. >> rose: so how do you explain the fact that they did and others didn't? what was it about them? >> well, i think it was about a sense of loving humanity. and i use that word because i think they felt that sense of des operation in its longing and its suffering. and i think they connected to

people. and i think people meant everything to them. and children, of course. children as you know are the greatest victims of war. i think they deeply connected with the idea that even though they were leaving their children to do this work, that they were helping other children. >> rose: and what happened to them after the war? >> they divorced, unfortunately it was a very sad story. i won't give it away but maybe a spoiler alert i should have said. but the point is like any human being, they had troubles in their marriage. one of the things that ken and i are very excited about is you know, we can make comic book heroes or tell real stories. and the sharps were amazing and courageous but they also had challenges. and one of the challenges was that after doing this work, their lives fell apart. and they never came back together. >> rose: thank you, ken. great to see you. >> thank you. >> rose: artemis, thank you. the book is you will cad defying the nazis, the sharps war. it is the official companion to

the pbs film that appears on-- when is it. >> on the 20th of september at 9:00. >> rose: next week on pbs right here. thank you for joining us. see you next time. for more about this program and earlier episodes visit us online at pbs.org and charlie rose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

>> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. >> you're watching pbs.

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