>> rose: we begin this evening with a powerful hurricane matthew that devastated haiti and is now threatening the american east coast. here is the cbs news coverage with scott pelley. >> this historic city is flooding tonight as hurricane matthew treks up the atlantic coast. the eye is just northeast of st. augustine. hurricane watches and warnings are up from northern florida to nenorth carolina. mathew lost some of its punch overnight, but it is still a big and dangerous category 2, 120 miles wide with maximum sustained winds of 110 miles an hour. damage in south florida was far less than feared because the strongest winds remained offshore, but at least four deaths are reported and, at last

report, 600,000 homes and businesses in the state were without power. the president declared a state of emergency in florida, georgia and the carolinas. more than 2 million people in those states are under evacuation orders. more than 22,000 have moved into florida shelters. major airports in south florida have now reopened, but thousands of flight have been canceled. >> rose: we turn now to the second presidential debate which takes place in st. louis sunday night. we begin with james fallows of "the atlantic" magazine. >> the point of the article is that these debates, through history, they've always had more -- they've mattered more in the images they convey than actually the words people exchange, and this is likely to be more that way than ever before, the clinton-trump contrast, because there never before has been such a stark

opposition. >> rose: amy chozick of the "new york times" and bob costa of "the washington post." >> donald trump based on my reporting continues to talk about online polls when he's on his plane and in his hotel. he has not really acknowledged privately or publicly the first debate was even a struggle for him. but there is an agitation and an excite among people within his wider group, especially those in the republican party institutionally, who says if he does not succeed in this debate, you could see the party stray. >> rose: we conclude with go great champions, michael phelps, at the olympic swimmer, mike krzyzewski, the duke basketball coach, talking about performance and winning at the bdt & company global summit in chicago. >> i was taught by my coach at a young age to do. this i would do relaxation stuff

when i was lying down. if i'm going to bed, there is a relaxation process i go through to help me relax and go to sleep. also, i play how my race should go, how it could go, and how i don't want it to go. >> rose: presidential politics and debates and champions talking about winning, when we continue. >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by the following: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: the second of three presidential debates will take

place this sunday at washington university in st. louis. it will be a town hall style debate. it will feature questions from the audience. joining me from washington, james fallows of "the atlantic." his article and cover story who will win the debate and election is this month's issue. pleased to have james fallows back on the show. welcome. >> nice to be here. >> rose: when was this written? >> i can it went to press probably five or six weeks before it came out and so, we weren't entirely sure donald trump was going to show up for the debates at all, so we had to make a number of bets, but we put it to bed probably just after the republican convention. >> rose: and what's your point? >> the point of the article is that these debates, through history, they've always had more -- they've mattered more in the ims they convey than

actually the words people exchange, and this one is likely to be more that way than ever before the trump clinton contrast because there is never before been such a stark opposition, man-woman, intellect versus emotion and control and spontaneity. the most satisfying thing for me in the reporting was interviewing jane goodall on what you learned about donald trump's behavior by studying the great apes. >> rose: what do we learn? you can understand the republican primary debate when trump was dom night many republican rivals by seeing the way male chimps rising in the hikehierarchy would intimidate e others. when she watched trump on stage she thought about chimps but wasn't sure what it would be like with a woman.

>> rose: having written the article and seen the first debate in anticipation of the second, a different style, a town meeting like, did the first debate confirm the ideas that you felt important to express before the debate? >> it did because what i was trying to say is the main thing to know about the debates coming up in the fall is how fundamentally different they were from the primary debates in which donald trump's approach had been so effective. the differences were, number one an most importantly, the number of participants. when you have ten people on stage, as you well know from moderating discussions, everybody's in a desperate struggle for air time and, so, what donald trump could do in those cases just wait for his moment. estion, he didn't have to answer it. but then he could pipe up and say little marco, lying ted, low energy jeb and score his point or build a wall, bras in the general election debate he has to fill the time, two minutes, saying what are you going to do about the trade policy, japan,

china, and that would be harder for him. i also was saying the other big difference was the learned nature of a general election debate or a head-on-head debate which hillary clinton has done a zillion times and practices for and trump had never done before the previous one and seems not to practice for it. i think we saw some of the consequences of that the first time around. >> rose: you also got, in the first vice presidential debate, a sense of what calm can do as well, especially if it's in contrast to a rather aggressive interrupting style. >> yes, and one of the points i made, and i think you and i discussed this over the years, is that if you want to be informed by debate, of course you will listen to it. but if you want to know who will be judged the victor, you probably should watch it with the sound turned off because it's whoever seems more reagan like in serenity as opposed to being squirming or tight or anxious or huffy or whatever, and i think that, while senator

kaine may have scored strategic points against mike pence in their previous debate by forcing pence to either defend donald trump or not in demeanor, certainly mike pence had the calmer, more reaganesque demeanor as opposed to the interruptions by tim kaine which were not effective. >> rose: don meredith said to me, when i first started in television, said know where your mark is, know what you're doing, be able to communicate that and show them that you're having fun. that's all that's necessary. it does have a certain truth to it about politics, doesn't it? donald trump has to convince people that he's presidential. you know, they have to think of him as a man in the oval office, yes? >> yes, indeed, and i think that hillary clinton seemed more than she often does to be having fun in the first debate. not all the time, but some.

and trump often has fun with his audiences, but it's not the same thing in these debates, because there is not the same arena crowd to play to and say build a wall. so, you're right, i will agree with you and don meredith those three eternal principles and we'll see if trump puts them to use. >> rose: you have a sense that hillary clinton, the opposite of that, is a listener. >> yes, and that, of course, brings the impence topic, which out in my article, of just the constraint she's under as the first woman in this position, the first major party nominee and this inch-wide tight rope that prominent women in the u.s. have to walk. if they're too meek, they're weak. if they're too strong, they're harsh or shrill. i think she has most weight there when she's getting attacked.

>> rose: what will you be looking for when you watch the debate sunday night? >> since i expect hillary clinton as she's done in almost her debate performances to be perfectly confident, she almost never messes up, i will be looking to see whether donald trump is capable of change because i think he's seen his natural style didn't work that well the first time, so if he is able to present a different face, a different kind of approach to the questions, that will be significant to me in showing something we haven't seen before. >> rose: and he has to remember that there are important point he wants to make and has to make sure h he's not thrown offstride so he can't make the points, whether about healthcare, foreign policy or whether about change versus the establishment, any of those things, you've got to make sure that the whole conversation be not so turned by a criticism that you can't handle that you don't get a chance to go on offense with the positive things you want to make. >> exactly.

responding to contrary arguments without seeming enraged or provoked by them and moving on to the point you want to make. as you know, from watching politicians and moderating discussions, that is an art rather than a science, and we'll see what he can do. >> rose: can't wait. thank you, jim. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: james fallows from "the atlantic." >> rose: we begin tonight with politics, the vice presidential nominees held their only debate tuesday. hillary clinton and donald trump face off again sunday, and we're beginning the final month of the 2016 campaign. joining me from washington for the week in politics is bob costa of the "the washington post." with me here in new york is amy chozick of the "new york times." i am pleased to have both of them here. bob costa, let me begin with you, how is trump preparing for this debate is this. >> in typical trump fashion, charlie. there are no mock debates behind the scenes, not trump standing at a lectern going through question by question. it's more informal.

discussions with chris christie, rudy giuliani. his staff convinced him to have a dry run in new hampshire for about 30 minutes and as we know the debate is about 90 minutes. >> rose: amy, hillary's preparation. >> her aides say she was been preparing for this town hall style her entire campaign. some of her most relatable moments have come from spontaneous interactions with voters, who are generally supporters asking her question so this will be a different format. she's been doing formal debate prep with advisors, some of whom advised bill clinton in 1992 town hall where george checked his watch and bill clinton walking toward the audience was something rehearsed.

so hillary clinton is practicing body language. how does she come across? can she show that softer side of herself? >> rose: bob, does the trump campaign believe this is an essential debate for them that, if they can't win this debate, they're in a very, very bad place and time is closing in on them? >> it depends on who you ask. within the trump circle. donald trump himself, based on my reporting, continues to talk about online polls when he's on his plane and in his hotel. he is not really acknowledged privately or publicly that the first debate was even a struggle for him. but there is an agitation and anxiety among people within his wider group, especially those within the republican party institutionally, who say if he does not succeed in this debate, you could see the party begin to stray, and amy's colleague at the "new york times" had a smart piece about this the other day how internal polling on both sides of the aisle showed trump

slipping in key swing states and that's going to make this debate even more important. he has to succeed so down ballot candidates stick with him. >> add to that early voting starts in ohio, florida, north carolina next week. the clinton campaign very much expects to have this election finished this month, not november. so it's critical donald trump improve his numbers. >> rose: they say the decision with respect to florida, north carolina and ohio will be done by the time the election comes? >> they think in october from early voting. about 61% of voters in ohio vote early. >> rose: the enthusiasm factor is also a question for the democrats. >> absolutely. >> rose: how can they increase that? >> it's interesting. if you want to know where they're very concerned about enthusiasm and turnout, a good sign is follow where michelle obama goes. she's their most powerful surrogate. >> rose: she's the most powerful surrogate they have, more so than her husband --

>> more so than bill clinton, i think, and possibly more so than president obama because she doesn't seem to have a political agenda when she talks. she comes off as genuine. >> rose: sending her where? to north carolina, south florida, pennsylvania, college kids. >> rose: we turn now to a remarkable conversation between two fascinating individual performers, michael phelps and mike krzyzewski, two to have the most successful and highly decorated competitors in sports history. phelps' achievement are unprecedented. five olympics, 28 medals and 23 gold medals. no one's won more basketball games than mike krzyzewski, coach k, led duke to five championships, in august led the

team in rio olympics. i sat down with them in chicago at the bdt & company global summit and we talked about their olympic memories, what it means to be the best at what you do and the strategies they utilized to achieve the remarkable performance. here is that conversation. i'll start with you, coach k. what's the x factor as you see it because you not only have it in your life but you teach it and share it with thousands of young basketball players. >> you expect me to just give that to you right now? ( laughter ) >> rose: yeah, i mean, i want to make my life better. >> right off the bat. he goes right for it. >> rose: i want to be better! ( laughter ) >> well, you know -- >> rose: michael promised me he would teach me how to swim, at least you can teach me the x

factor. >> well, he has it and you're in constant search for it. yoi think, you know, it's the great players and teams i've had the honor of coaching whether the united states or duke. it's more -- much more than physical, and it basically is that they do not -- that person or that team does not have a point of failure. they have interruptions which knock them back, but they will never accept failure, you know, in training, in competition or whatever. so they are just woven a certain way where they see -- in michael's case -- the gold, they see themselves being great. sometimes, in teaching that, you have to help them get over those

points. but, you know, whether grant hill or lebron james or kobe bryant or a number of guys i coach that have it, i think, if i had to say one thing, certainly they're talented and all that, but it's that thing inside of them and sometimes you have to help them find that that then gets them and all of a sudden they go past the limit they thought they had and all of a sudden there's another button. i just want to tell all of you, it's a really honor for a coach to sit next to him. i've coached more great players because i've coached the u.s. team for 11 years than anyone in the history of the sport, and when you're around greatness -- he is as great an athlete that has ever been placed on this planet because he has done it not just for one period of time,

it's crazy that he's done it for five olympics. really, in the history of sport in this entire world -- look, i'm not just blowing smoke. and he's a maryland fan, too. ( applause ) he's got the x factor. >> rose: and the olympics have been around a long, long time. ( laughter ) and to have more than anybody in the long, long history of theo links says something -- history of the olympics says something important. >> yeah. >> rose: so what do you think snifts. >> it's -. >> rose: so what do you think it was? >> i competed for 20 years. if you look at sports today you don't find many athletes with a coach that long. i was trying to think of another athlete who's been with a coach that long. bob and i started at 11, and

from 11 to about 18, you know, he would say jump, i would say how high. you know, wean he first met -- when he first met me at 11 and he told me in four years i could make the olympic team, i stopped playing ball and started focusing on swimming. four years later i made my first team. i was fit, didn't like it i. cam back, worked my tail off and broke m my first world record at 15. at 18, went to michigan, were at michigan four years. that's when i started realizing i could talk back. i never had that before. so we kind of played with that a little bit. i'll never forget in 2006, he let me do it my way, and at the end of 2006, i was not the happiest camper. so 2007, 2008, we kind of changed it again, and i can

probably say today those are the two best years i've had in my career were 2007, 2008. so i just started trusting him again. of course, we have our battles, but it all goes back to sort of he's pressing my buttons. and we grew together as we both changed. you know, some of the obstacles i went through in my life and the changes i went through in my life, he changed on how he approached me and we worked together and that's what i saw in the last two years that made us work as well as we did. these last two years in my career, i couldn't have asked for a better finish. this is what i wanted in london. i wanted closure on the sport and closure on my career, and when i hung up my suit, i wanted to hang it up the way i wanted to hang it up, not how -- like, in 2012, i felt like i just wanted to get through it, i didn't really care. and, you know, taking the year

and a half, two years off and kind of deciding things on my own, i think, helped me learn a lot. once i came back, i knew i had to do it a certain way and i had to do it his way. >> rose: was he there for the struggles? >> of course. i mean, he, growing up in a single-family home, i had a lot of father figures if my life who helped me through things and he was one of them. >> rose: didn't see your own father much? >> i went through a phase where i probably saw my father five times in 20 years, and that was a struggle for me, but now we are finally at the point where we are friends and we're building a friendship again, you know, and i'm so very thankful for, you know, the things that have happened in my life that have brought me to the point where i am today because this is how life should be. >> rose: and you could build the relationship. >> it's amazing to have him a part of my life and my family's life as well and he's able to

see and get to know his ground son. >> rose: after 2012, did you think you would come back in 2016? >> for him? >> rose: no, you. ( laughter ) >> no -- >> rose: because i thought you said this is it. >> we both said that. right. for him to be with one coach that long, that's incredible because you're going through different stages. i coach 18-year-olds who become 22-year-olds and then when i started coaching the olympic team, 11 years ago, wow, it's different. and the thing that you had with your coach and something that you-all want to build all the time is shared vision where you have shared vision. at tiles, like when -- at times, like when you're 18, he saw a vision for you that you couldn't see. >> right. and that relationship, whether it be in business, family or in coaching, is the thing i like the best. for me, it's not just the shared

vision with a particular player, it's a shared vision with a group, and we try to manifest that in the olympics a certain way, and i do it a little bit -- not a little bit -- a lot different way with my duke team. but shared vision is a really important thing. it's dr. and it's built on trust. can i ask him a question? >> rose: of course. if they're good questions. ( laughter ) >> did you ever not trust your coach or question your trust? >> i guess when i started at 11 -- when i'm 11 and he came up and said you can make the olympic team in four years, obviously that's something a kid wants to hear. so at that point i was, like, okay, if this guy says he can do it, i might as well trust him. ever since then, i think i always had trust in him. i think that's why i never left.

i knew when i came back to swimming, he's the only one i was going to swim for. there are times i would butt heads and i would threaten to leave but we both knew that wouldn't happen. you said shared vision, i think that's something he was trying to get me to see. from age 11, he taught me to dream as big as you possibly can dream and goal set. that's one thing i've lived on for so long, as an 11-year-old kid, that i dream of being the best ever? yeah, everybody does. but it's like the sacrifices that i made and the goals that i had and the things that i had the do to be able to get to that point or even have that opportunity, i think that was something that he taught me at a very young age. he taught me how to set short-term, long-term goals, and i do it every year. i was talking to you about my goal sheet that i had, that i just found, i have it hanging in

my closet, and i found it going through things, and i wasn't very happy when i saw it. >> rose: you underestimated your possibilities? >> i hit one of my goal times. i texted my coach and told him the interaction my fianceé had n the closet when i was talking about it and he smiled and just said, let it go. ( laughter ) it ended up being really good. i think as i got older and older, i started realizing that, you know, if -- i think there were so many people who doubted things that i wanted, and i believed that i could achieve them. i believed that i could go into 2008 and be perfect. i believed that. because i had trained for it and i prepared for it. i was getting ready to do something that nobody had ever done in olympic history and, you know, i think this being able to get to that point where i believed in myself that it could

happen, i think that was an extra oomph. >> rose: it was an important time in his life, too. doesn't he making a decision as to whether continue in swimming or something like that? he was about ready to leave and he sees something who he thinks has the potential to be an olympic star? >> he did. he coached in cincinnati, came to baltimore and was helping for the '96 olympics, and that's when we started working together, and he saw something in me, a passion, a drive that i had. i was an 11-year-old swimming with 18-year-olds who wouldn't let me go first but by the end of the set i was leading the lane. i was swimming through obstacles in the lane to try to make sure i was ahead of these guys. >> rose: beyond focus and the mental attitude, how much of it was your own physical? how much of it that you had

unique qualities as a swimmer? >> broad shoulders, long arms. >> rose: really long arms. short legs. it kind of works. i have tiny legs. i have very, very small legs. so i think my body proportionately was good for swimming. a lot of people who are tall but some of their structure is a little different. my wing span is 6-7, 6-8 and i'm 6-4. >> if he had long legs, i would have recruited him, charlie. ( laughter ) i'm scoping him out there. it's a good thing you're swimming. a key word you asked about 12, to do it to 16, and one of the things that i think we have in common is continuity. he had the continuity of having

the same coach. with the u.s. team and so much is what you all do, you're big on culture, right? you know, the culture that you have to and the continuity of that. when we took over in 2005 with the u.s. teams, there was no culture. it was more of an arrogance that we could just win by putting 12 guys out there and we were not winning. so over the this last decade, we developed a culture, not just me, but the players and everyone, and, so, i didn't want to give up on the continuity. we built something really good, and i wanted to take it another four years. but in saying that, like, i'm a west pointer, an army officer. the best coach in the pros is popovich. he's an air force academy

graduate. this summer, he spent a week with us in training. we were training our olympic team to learn about how we do cull cure and we became very close. we look at it like i was in command for the last decade, now he's taking over command and, in the military, we want the next guy to do better, you know. then he'll want the next guy to do better and that's what we're trying to establish with u.s.a. basketball. he's great, and i will try to help him. >> rose: you are going to try it. jerry calangio who brought you in wants you to come and stay will there and be involved in the process and wants you the takeover his job. >> i wouldn't take over his job because he has to raise money. ( laughter ) i don't know how they do it. in basketball, like, they don't get any money. you have to get into marketing agreements and things like that to support the sport at all levels, the juniors, 17, 16s,

all that, and he's masterful at that. i don't do that. >> rose: but you are going to stay with it? >> yeah, but i'll schlepp. i'll do whatever they need me to do. >> rose: what's the different in coaching pros and college kids? >> men and boys. boys who will become men. i call it -- when i'm coaching my duke team, i help them cross bridges, bridges of maturity or improvement, and then you develop a relationship, because if you cross that bridge with that person, there's a bond, just like you did with your coach. and the pros, they've already crossed a lot of bridges. they cross some bridges that i probably wouldn't want to cross with them, you know. but believe me -- or couldn't cross with them, let's put it that way. but it's just different.

in college, they have to more adapt to me and i adapt to their abilities. in the pros, we adapt to each other, and we try to figure out a way where we all own it. i'm sure you all are trying to figure that out with the younger generation is how do they own it? how can they feel it? how can they do that? we spend a lot of time, really, with that, and we include the armed forces so that they can feel what it is to represent our country and things like that. but to me, you know, continuity, ownership, shared vision, these are like key, key things that, you know, you have to do if you're going to be, like, really, really good. >> rose: michael, you have said you wanted to change, your goal was to change swimming. >> it's happening. at 15, i just had this dream of completely changing the sport of

swimming and how its seen both in and out of the pool. i thought, at that point, that i wanted the sport to have more attention because i think, as a national team, we're probably the most dom night national team in the world, and, you know -- dominating national team in the world. growing up in that sport, the things i was able to do and see changed my life. so now, being out of the pool, that's where the next chapter in my life is happening. in 2001, i started working with the boys and girls club of america, and children under age 14, drowning is the second highest cause of death. so i started working with them back in baltimore in 2001. in 2008, i opened up my foundation. kids who live active and healthy lifestyles but also teaching water say. that's the only reason i started to swim.

my mom put my two sisters and i in the water specifically just to be water safe, and this is what it turned out to be. >> not bad. i guess it turned out okay. >> rose: all of a sudden, parents all over america are seeing this and throw their kids in the pool. >> especially the short-legged kids. ( laughter ) >> rose: yeah. that's amazing. >> rose: but also what you've done is hired people. katie ledecky, you're her inspiration. >> for me, this olympics i felt like a dad. i had been on the national team for so long, but also i feel like my role changed on this team. you have katy and i when she was 10 and we have a picture. another girl said i had posters

up of you as a kid and now i'm on the team with you. ryan murphy, same thing. so you have a these kids who have pictures they got as a kid. for me, it's cool to watch them grow into the people they are now. for me, i am retired -- technically not retired but i'm retiring soon. i haven't signed the papers, but i'm retiring, so it's nice for me to be able to see the younger generation taking over. i always think back to also the first gold medals, i guess the second night for me was the 4 by 100 free relay and being able to swim two rookies. i'll never forget this moment, we're on the podium right before the national anthem starts, and the two rookies are in the middle and they didn't really know what to do. i kind of said to them, guys,

you're allowed to smell, you're allowed to sing, and if you havt to cry, just cry. i would say about halfway into the song, i hear somebody crying out of the corner -- out of the side of my ear, and i look over and ryan literally let everything go. i think that was such a cool moment for me because, you know, to be able to represent your country at that level is the greatest thing in the world. for me, that's one of the biggest things that i will miss if retiring from the sport, being able to wear the stars and tripes and represent your country like that has been the greatest part of my career, and these guys are taking over and it's such an honor to see. >> rose: you have said before you were retiring. >> i'll say it again and mean it this time. ( laughter ) i have a beautiful baby boy and a family that we are starting with nicole and boomer and i'm ready. this time i'm actually ready.

i think in '12 i kind of forced it. like i said before, i was able to finish my career like i wanted to. >> rose: by winning the 200-meter butterfly? >> my gosh, when i saw chad shadow boxing, i was, like, what the hell's going on? but i wanted that want race really bad after he beat me in '12 and being able to come back and take that race and win a couple more. you know, i don't know if i'll ever wrap my head around 28 olympic medals, 23 gold. i just started wrapping my head around 8 from beijing. this started with the dream of winning one olympic medal. i had the first one in 2004, i'll never forget that one. but being able to have this was almost -- doesn't seem real. it's like a dream. >> it is. that's why he's the best ever,

i'm telling you. >> rose: but talk about two things. he talked about pride in america, but the idea of pride as a positive quality, a sense that i'm doing this for something beyond myself -- >> right, what we try to do at the olympic team, is you know, each of these guys are knicks, lakers, cavs and they're proud to be a part of that. so who are the proudest americans? to me, it's our military because they not only protect and serve us, they put their lives on the line. so we incorporate that. it's important for each of our guys to hear and see, but the most important thing is for them to feel, and if you feel, then you get it in here and you own it. and, so, we do wounded warriors, come and visit with them. we'll go to arlington cemetery.

marty dempsey who just retired as chair of the joint chiefs, a good friend, he spoke, and we actually joined with the n.b.a. to help a group called taps -- tragedy assistance protection for survivors -- it's not funded by the government, but families who have lost a brother, sister, mother, a father, and in each of the cities we played exhibitions, when we did the national anthem, a taps kid was with us. in chicago, we had a ceremony in practice privately where about 70 of them were there, and a number of them lined up at half court, and then our whole team and coaching staff did, and they had buttons with a picture of the person who was killed, and they gave us their buttons. >> rose: both of you have experienced failure in terms of

you having injury in your back and going through a very rough patch. the same thing for you. tell me about that. what are the lessons to be learned from that struggle? and the sense of recognizing that you are not all powerful? >> for me, to become the person who i am today, i found myself in the darkest possible place that any human being could go, and that was the worst three or four days of my life, sort of not really wanting to be here anymore. that's where i got to. for me to get to that point, it's like a downward spiral staircase, express elevator straight down, and i put myself in that. for me being there and being able to come out like i did, learning a lot about myself, learning a lot about how i work

and, you know, for me, there were so many things that i didn't want to let out and, you know, when i went through my struggles, i literally came and said, you know what? everyone's going to see the real michael phelps, who i really am. and that was the coolest thing for me to just be able to be myself and not worry about it, if i'm going to get judged this, that or the other, just be exactly who i am. it was the hardors thing in my life, but you know what, honestly, i've had ups and downs my entire career, and if you asked me today would i change it, i wouldn't. >> rose: you learned from it. yeah. no one got hurt in any situation, thankfully, but i'm able to be the person who i am today, and for that i have better relationships. i have better friendships. everything is honestly ten times better. i'm happy almost every day and

it's just great, you know, being able to -- for me, being able to see my baby boy every morning is amazing, and just being able to travel and just enjoy myself. life today is how i wish life was for my whole life. >> rose: mike? i think we all have times where you're down, whether it be physically, emotionally, mentally, and i go back to being a cadet at west point. a number of things i learned, but the two most important things i learned was failure was never a destination and you're never going to do it alone, so you want to be on teams and with good people. during those times, i don't know who did it for you, but the couple of times where i was really down, i had somebody strong enough to be able to tell me the truth. i don't think you do it alone. soeone has the to tell you. so when i got real sick in the

mid '90s, not just physically but emotionally, my wife did that, and my wife said, look, you either go or i'm going. so i went and if she didn't do that, you know, again, we have been married 47 years. it's not like we had problems in our marriage, but at that point someone has to be strong for you because, apparently, you can't be strong for you. so i tell my guys all the time, you know, be with good people, man, you know, because somewhere along the line you're going to be better by being with them and, in those times, that's what happened, whether my wife -- i have three beautiful daughters that will tell me the truth. they're not beautiful all the time when they tell me that, but they will tell me. >> but i think that's also something that's so true. i always felt i could do anything on my own.

it's almost like, at that point, i guess i had to learn it was okay to ask for help when you needed it, and i think once i learned that, i was, like, wow, this is how life is. it's great. >> rose: you can admit you're vulnerable. >> that was the greatest thing, being able to pick up the phone and call somebody and not feel bad asking for help, because, i mean, what's the worst they could say? sorry, can't help you now? >> which they won't. and i think that was something that's us a tom learn as well. >> rose: what are your goals now? >> i think that's also one thing i'm excited for now because, you know, i always go back four years ago, like, i wasn't ready to move forward. for me, continuing the sport, even though i'm not in the pool, how i can do that, we're figuring that out. but i want to work more with children.

that's something that if you put me, no matter what kind of mood i'm in, no matter how many hours of sleep i've had, no matter what, you put me with a group of kids, you will see a genuine me, and that is where i plan on doing all of my work. >> rose: mike, what's the hardest thing about winning five ncaa championships? >> i think the hardest thing is all you need is one hiccup. you know, when we coach in the olympics, we have to teach the pro guys it's one and done, because usually they're in -- >> rose: a seven-game series. so once we get to the middle round, it's, like, you don't have a do-over. but they do have do-overs. they can look bad in the second game of the series. so how do we be really good all the time? i think a huge thing for me -- we have different teams. i have a different team every

year because of one and done in our sport in college a kid could leave after one year to go pro. so we have to continue to teach our culture. we used to have juniors and seniors teaching it. i do have that this year, which i think we're going to be really good, and a big part of it is i have that secure upper class leadership. but how do we maintain the culture of going after the national championship? that's what we've tried to build at duke. we've done it with the olympic team, and culture takes over a lot of times in competition. like, you know, you made a number of interesting points, great points. one of them was you took pride -- i don't know if you caught it -- you took pride in

the fact it wasn't about his gold medals but u.s. swimming has been the most dominant. in other words, you're part of a great culture. now you're a big part of that great culture, but you're still part of a culture. and, so, when you go out there, you're not just competing for you. you're competing for that culture. and if we can get that, you know, we have a better chance of winning, and that's -- >> rose: i was thinking about the equivalency for people in this audience of doing what both of you have, but especially michael because the olympics have been with us for a long, long, long time. what is the equivalent for michael has done in corporate america or in the world of wall street and finance? i mean, building the greatest company that's ever been and, at the same time, creating the greatest products that have ever been or creating the most innovative financial model that's ever been or changing the way we generate the

contributions of financial communities and corporate communities to the overall global economy, all of that. when you think about what the two of you have done and have done it over a lifetime, people have said to me before, it's difficult to win one, but to win 28, to win five, that's the hardest part. is the first one the hardest? or is the last one the hardest? >> i think each of them are -- i think the fact, when you do it the first time, you have a confidence level that you know you can do it again. then it's a matter of do you want to do it again. that's why so many people don't do it multiple times because, you know, they don't have the same hunger. that's the thing that i'm saying about you is that, over five

olympics, okay, how did you stay hungry? and we were taught -- he and i were talking, you know, a coach, i'm trying to figure out what makes him tick and take that back. ( laughter ) so he's in competition, right? when you're on a court, you feel things. it's, like, you're in a race. how do you know where other people are? do you know who's swimming next to you? >> rose: how do you know you're in first place? >> you can feel it? the water teaches you. >> it's obviously, when you're in the pool, the middle lane is the fastest lane, so you have the next fastest people next to you, so you have a sense of where things are. some strokes you can feel the splashes. >> that's crazy.

that's nuts, really, isn't that nuts? feeling the splashes while winning world records. >> you see people underwater. so i have a sense of where things are and i know that -- but i think the biggest thing is i know if i'm prepared, nothing else matters. if i've done the work, i know whatever happens -- >> rose: well, 100% of the time, are you prepared? >> no. >> rose: and if you're not prepared, why not? >> let's say it there way -- in 2008, i was probably not working at 100%. i probably won those eight gold medals on about 0% i was in a cast after i broke my wrist and we had to try to figure out how i was able to get pressure back on this hand, and

that was right before trials. so i had to do it again at the olympics. so i think this time, in 2016, was probably the first time where i've gone into an olympics completely giving 100%, being at every workout, sleeping the right amount, doing the right things away from the pool. like a couple of coaches always say, nothing good happens after midnight. i'm in bed before midnight. all of those things i did before going into this olympics because i knew i had to do it the exact way, no other way. >> rose: can you teach that to young men and women or do you have to be born with that? >> you can teach it. >> rose: yeah. you can hold them accountable. we can have a guard outside your room -- ( laughter ) -- so you're in bed at midnight. so you get it yourself. but it helps if it's a shared vision or, like, you know, personally, you've got to know -- there are three kids on

my team this year who can be, like, really good. well, they want to be really good. >> rose: really good meaning as good as you've ever had? >> yeah, like can be lottery picks, and they're really good kids. so they want to learn because they don't know yet. >> rose: but they know they're special. >> yeah, and that's the thing that i love. i love being in the moment of a great team or a great player. you know, you mentioned that about your coach, that's why i still coach. i coach because, holy mackerel, i can be in a moment of this 20-year-old guy who wants to be the national player of the year right now, you know, or this team that wants to win its first national championship, and to be in the moment, like, you have to be in the moment for each of your races, right? you understand what i'm saying? >> yeah, i do.

do you do any visualization? of course. it's amazing. >> rose: explain visualization as pertains to both of you. >> as a coach, we try to, like, teach that. in other words, we'll practice something and then we have everything on tape, and i might put a five-sequence tape together on their ipads. i said, when you look good, this is how you look, and then watch that, but then don't watch it, then watch it in your head. you know, at different times, visualize this is how you should look. this is a strong -- not just this but strong faces, how your body language, you should not just play like a great player, you should walk like a great player. you should look like a great player. you should act like it. and we try to -- we actually

spent a lot of time on it. >> it's funny because, for me, i was taught at a young age by my coach to literally prepare myself to do this. i would do relaxation stuff when i was lying down. when i was going to bed, i would have a relaxation process to help me relax and go to sleep. but also ilay how my race should go, how it could go, and how i don't want it to go. so whatever happens, i'm prepared for it. say i go out and my suit rips or my suit -- like the tie snaps. okay, well, i know i have x amount of time to get it off and get a new one back on, so i'm not freaking out and not emotionally having a breakdown. so i think that's -- if you have -- you know, obviously, and i think coach does this, too, if you have the combination of

mental, emotional, physical toughness, if you have every one of those, that makes you great. >> rose: on behalf of this audience, our great thanks to two great chavr champions, michl phelps and mike krzyzewski. ( cheers and applause ) >> rose: for more about this program and earlier episodes, visit us online at pbs.org and charlierose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

>> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide.

>> the following kqed production was produced in high definition. [ ♪music ] >> yes, check, please! people. >> no! >> it's all about licking your plate. >> the food is just fabulous. >> i should be in psychoanalysis for the amount of money i spend in restaurants. >> i had a horrible experience. >> i don't even think we were at the same restaurant. >> and everybody, i'm sure, saved room for those desserts.