>> rose: welcome to the program, we begin this evening with a conversation about global affairs with zanny minton beddoes, editor and chief of the economist. the president wrote for you an essay on the economy, what is his argument? >> this was a very serious, thought provoking attempt to lay out what he saw as the challenges facing the american economy. an he listed improving productivity, inequality, tackling inequality, making the economy more resilient. so it was striking in its thoughtfulness which is more than you get in most discussions of economic policy right now. >> rose: and we stn with sturgill simpson whose new album is called "a sailor's guide to earth." >> i don't know that i'm necessarily making a focused effort to represent anything. i just know that when we go into studio or want to try to write songs, i guess honesty and

trying to represented the human experience from my sper perspective as undiluted as possible. >> rose: zanny minton beddoes and sturgill simpson when we continue. funding for charlie rose is provided by the following: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: zanny minton beddoes is here, she became editor-- editor in chief of the economist last year, she began working there 1984 as its emerging market correspondent,

the economist's first female editor in chief since it was founded in 1843. this week's edition includes a guest essay on the u.s. economy written by president obama. i'm pleased to have her back at this table on this program. welcome. >> thank you, charlie. great to be here. >> rose: we have much to talk about. first the u.s. elections, how does it look from london. >> oh my lord, something like a reality tv show. no seriously it worries us enormously. we have the combination of amazing shock at the sort of debasement of american politics, and huge concern. >> rose: debasement in terms of language. >> in terms of language, in terms of topics, in terms of norms being changed. i mean-- i arrived here in the u.s. in time for the debate on sunday night. i watched it and i thought i was watching the jerry springer show or something worse am you had to pinch yourself to think this is a debate between two people who are the candidates for the presidency of the united states. >> rose: and who are suggesting they're prepared to liedtke the free world.

>> absolutely. so i think-- what worries me is that the consequences of this could linger. i mean if hillary clinton wins and donald trump does not win, you can see the consequences linger, potentially. because there will be a large fraction of the country who thinks their president should northbound jail, to put it bluntly. and i think that is a-- . >> rose: that conversation is taking place by one of the candidates. >> yeah, and the conversation about hillary clinton and the misogyny of it, the whole-- it's all just really. >> you don't see this language in british politics. >> you see a lot of bad things too but i don't think you see things in this scale in this breathed. no, it's particularly shocking because it is the united states, and it's the leader of the free world. >> what do they worry about with respect to hillary clinton that her authority has been, will be challenged because of all that has taken place and all the accusations of this campaign? >> yes,. >> rose: and the level of trust which leaders need? >> that's exactly right. i think you if have a large

fraction of the population, a minority of the fraction thinking their president is fundamentally dishonest, that is a real problem. and the shadow of the racism, the misogyny, all of the awful things that have been said during this campaign strks hard to suddenly put them behind you, particularly when there are a group of people who think that the american political system is so broken, that you know, you need someone like donald trump to completely slaik it up, regardless of all his down 150euds. and those people, the anger that those people have is going to make it very hard, i think, to kind of put the whole thing behind you. hopefully you can put it behind you and look back and see this is a terrible aberration in a kind of fundamental-- . >> rose: rather than a transform tiff event. >> well, one hopes it is a transform tiff event for the better. >> rose: but in the sense that show this is an indicator of what is to come. >> that wab terrible. >> rose: we will see more people steeped in celebrity rather than in.

>> the politics, one where nobody is talking about policy, where facts are-- that no one can even agree on the facts. it's a very difficult environment in which to have the kind of serious conversation we need on how you deal with the challenges america faces. for those of us who live outside the u.s., the prospect of many of the proposals that donald trump is talking about are completely terrifying. >> rose: in terms of trade, in terms of. >> and in terms of america's role, exactly. >> rose: in terms of shutting down america to immigrants. >> yeah. the nonchalance with which he appears to, you know, have a fundamentally different view of america's ro in the world. as sort of the idea that american leadership geo politically is some sort of, in his view, it is a garison kind of mentality. you pay up or we're getting out. >> rose: there is also this though, he looks at what happened in great britain and he says you had brexit vote over there. and nobody thought that leave would triumph and leave triumphed. and they were part of a

movement. and i'm leading a movement. and the movement is motivated by the same back drop. >> you are right. and he's right, in this sense. there are on both sides of the atlantic a large number of people who are extremely angry about the status quo. and you can. >> they think globalization has left them behind. >> they think globalization has left them behind, they think it is rigged in favor of the elite. there are individual causes. but broadly this anger that comes partly in large part from a sense of stagnant living standards, economic insecurity, a desire to sort of-- that immigrants are all-- feeling that all immigrants have a lot to do with the problem. that is shared on both sides of the atlantic. i think that is very serious. we need to separate revulsion against some of the excesses of donald trump with from the underlying concerns that are animating many of the supporters. and they're very real and very genuine. >> rose: and they have to do with economic insecurity. >> economic insecurity, the

middle class ising chaing, the racial complexation of the united states ising chaing. all of those things are a part of it. but i think there are important areas where policy has to respond. and i think it is insufficient to say, you know, there is nothing we can do for these people. there has to be a huge amount of serious economic change. but i think the important thing is to have that conversation. and you can't have that conversation if people are hurling insults at each other. >> you would hope that there would have been a real debate about it. >> absolutely. >> rose: you realize mistakes had been made and we may have been part of the mistakes. >> that is exactly the conversation we should all be having. but it is very hard to have that conversation when you can't even get people to go beyond the insult hurling or even an agreement on the basic facts. >> but are you absolutely right. that is the conversation you have to have. if you look at this political campaign, there has been remarkably little discussion of any kind of policies. it may be that hillary clinton has a ton of polingsees. but they haven't been really subjected to serious scrutiny because the whole parameters of the debate have been on, you

know, periphery and awful sort of dem going ree and racial and misogynistic stuff. so i think the cost is that you don't have the important discussions that you need. and if you don't have the important discussions you need, have you have another risk that is pem with very real addresses aren't addressed, they will get even angriynd disillusionment will get even deeper. >> and their departure from the system may take place, some sense of giving up on the system. >> you mentioned brexit, in some sense, you know, brexit is a very sobering tale for what can happen it was largely a vote of anger. it was a vote of anger against the existing system. it was not a vote for a particular kind of exit. >> rose: not a vote against a particular candidate. >> now we're dealing with the consequences and we're suddenly, and this is why britain, why the pound is tumbling and why britain suddenly seems more of a less stable place. people, it is dawning on people quite how difficult this is going to be if we have what is

called a hard brexit where we leave the single market. people don't know how to do that. the economic damage could be very serious. there is a sense that the country and the government is, you know, less welcoming to foreigners. xenophobia is extreme but it's not a pretty picture. >> rose: so how serious do you fear the rise of pop lism in europe, in country after country? >> i mean i think it's happening. it's not even that i-- you can see it happening. and the broad theme of what is going on in european politics is the center ground is disappearing. and the populist right is becoming the main opposition in country after country. and that you have a sense of this disenchantment with the status quo that we were talking about is translating into a grabbing for what seemed to be easy populist solutions, put up barriers, protectionism, anti-immigrant sentiments. and the tragedy is that you know, charlie, that those kinds

of policies, will make everybody much poorer. and the economic damage that we wrought by that will liedtke us to a much more dangerous world. but we haven't yet been able to have the debate, to have the conversation about what do you do to assuage people's anger, to push back. >> what argument does the economist magazine in terms of stories and in terms of editorial opinion make for trade? what is the argument for trade? >> you know, we were founded to fight for the cause of free trade, in 1843, we are of the true believers. we put in our cover a couple of weeks ago, people on the cover saying why they are wrong. the basic argument is that trade improves overall prosperity. it creates a bigger pie. it doesn't necessarily mean that every single person is better off. and the challenge that we face is how to insure that those people who lose out from trade are assisted so that they can get the skills, so we have-- . >> rose: they are trained whatever-- whatever.

>> commence rat resources and with immigration, in some sense it's the same-- it's the same issue. immigration also broadly boosts an economy. the questions you have to assure that you have sufficient investment, in education, in health, so you have the resources for those people. but in both cases the aggregate pie is bigger and economies are better off. >> rose: the president wrote for you an essay on the economy. what is his argument? >> well, his argument is very interesting. the reason we don't, as you know, often run outside pieces, ten years ago we had a piece by tony blair reflecting on his premiership. and the reason we ran this is that in the context of this extraordinarily, you know, fact-free political environment, presidential election environment, this was a very serious, thought-provoking attempt to lay out what he saw as the challenges facing the american economy. and he listed improving product tift, inequality, tackling inequality, making the economy more resilient. so it was striking in its

thoughtfulness, which was more than you get in most discussions of economic policy right now. but i thought what was also striking is that it was a very clear pitch for the political center. it was very much protrade, very much progloballization. there was some clear pushingback against the left of his own party as well as the kind of trumpist nativist right. and it struck me as a, you know, it was well written, you expect thatment but it was a really thoughtful and thought provoking attempt at laying out the challenges-- we wrote an editorial, we didn't agree with all of it. but we thought it was something,-- . >> rose: what parent didn't you agree with. >> well, for example, we think there was an underplaying of the role of regulation. i think stifling regulation is part of the robb in many parts of the u.s. economy. if you want to improve innovation, productivity, you need to do more to deal with that. there wasn't enough on entitlement reform in our opinion. there were several areas where we would have shifted the

emphasis. >> rose: i just did an interview with john boehner, and talking about-- they came that close-- to a grand bargain. which would have dealt with alt with tax reform, would have have dealt with some of these issues. but they came back that close, and that close doesn't matter. >> that's in many ways a tragedy. >> rose: and that tragedy is still with us. the possibility that washington, again, if you look at polls today, you assume that hillary clinton will win the election, if you look at polls today am but the election is not today, the election is four weeks from now, but anything can change. >> but right now that is the most likely outcome. >> rose: is anything going to change? > well, it depends-- it depends on the election. >> rose: whether republican control the senate and house or just the house or neither. >> you can conceive of an outcome, i think probably unlikely, but you can conceive of one where there is a clean sweep, where there is such revulsion at what is going on with trump, that it spirals down the particular, republicans lose out and democrats, senate and possibly even the house, very unlikely, but then you would have a hillary clinton, with the

capacity to push quite a lot through. at least in her first year until the mid terms. >> rose: that is what obama had. >> but you have in some sense-- . >> rose: but you remember that, he had that. >> and remember what happened. >> rose: dealing with the severest economic, challenge anyone president has faced in awhile. >> and then that huge sense of polarization that came thereafter. the most lakely outcome is a republican congress. and put that together with the sort of hate-filled rhetoric that we have now, and you have a really grim prospect, certainly for domestic policy it will not be pretty here. >> rose: let me talk about global economics. we seem to have stalled. >> have we ever accelerated? >> rose: and then i will get to the british government too, before we go. where do you think the global economy is in terms of growth, for example? you look at china, and you look at the-- the decline in their own growth rate. and you look at commodity prices

in, around the world. we see all over 50, and you see no more cooperation in oil producing states to raise the price of oil even further. but there is a kind of stagnation. >> now it should be a relatively long expansion but it never really got going since the financial crisis. and there is this phrase that larry summer is talking about,-- stagnation, is this the permanent norm it is triking that interest rates, there is talk about speculation when the fed will raise rates but interest rates are pretty much at zero. >> rose: could be more of an argument not to do it than to do it. >> absolutely. so i see very little sign of anything liedtkeing to the acceleration of the global economy in fact, if anything, i think the risks are absolutely on the downside. china is in the midst of this very difficult transition, from we talked about before, from investment drif tone consumer driven. it has a huge debt load. its economy is not looking in great shape. europe, both for reasons of pop

lism, for the shock of brexit, also not looking in shape. it's still got a massive rate debt problem. >> rose: lots of unemployment. >> absolutely. the emerging economies, many of them have hit bottom. like brazil. but there isn't really a huge dynamism there. >> rose: because chinese demand is not what it was. >> an many went on a credit binge and now suffering the hangover. so the biggest bright light really is and was the u.s and here the question is what happens, you know, after the election and on into 2017. but it is not clear that the u.s. is going to be a driver of a sudden acceleration of global growth wz. >> rose: we mentioned interest rates what is going to happen to the pound. >> what has happened to the pound. the pound is, i think, the 142ant worst performing currency-- currency it changes very fast, but it has tumbled it is down 18% against the dollar, and 6% just in the last ten days. the reason the pound has tumbled is two fold, primarily because people are realizing that britain does seem to be heading

for a hard brexit. and a hard brexit of being outside the single market means we will grow more slowly and be poorer. the other thing, this is what is worrying. there is a growing sense of investor uncertainty about the british government, and whether the british government has a plan. >> rose: what is it that makes such uncertainty. >> well, i think two things that became clear at the conservative party conference which was last week, where theresa may gave two speeches. one was they are determined, it seems, to go for a hard brexit. she sort of set it motion by march next year. >> rose: that is if you wanted out, you're out. >> you want out, you're out, damn the consequences, put sim plisically. or at least there are a large fraction of people in her government who want to do that. even though the more people look at-- . >> rose: is bore is johnson part of that? >> oh yeah. the more you look at that, the more the economic costs become clear. and secondly, there say realization that they actually have no plan of how to do it. and so you have a sort of bunch of people who are determined to get to an outcome that will have

very big economic costs with no plan. and the third thing which is i think what shocked people the most, is some of the rhetoric emerging from that conference was very antiforeigner, was very interventionist. there was a phrase and i'm parra phrasing-- . >> rose: interventionist. >> we need the state to help ordinary people. but in a way that was sort of not-- i'm all for using the state sensibly to help ordinary peoplement but it was kind of a very industrial policy and particularly sort of antiforeigner way. there was a phrase, she said something along the lines of if you consider yourself a citizen of the world, you don't even know what the word citizenship means. it was a very kind of little can be what is calledopeannr singapore on thames, or we can be little england. we can try and turn the clock back, try and put up barriers, you have to be english, we don't like foreigners. i think the concern was last week is that actually this government might be more towards

that way than singapore. and that has really scared people. >> rose: and what is going to happen about, in terms of-- i mean with brexit are you going to see leading financial institutions move out of london and go to-- wherever they want to go. >> depends how hard the brexit is. but yes, you are increasingly seeing and hearing financial firms say they have contingency plans and they're going to start activating them it will really depend on what the relationship is between britain and the european union after we leave. and there would be after june a hope that good sense would prevail and we would have a relationship that allowed, you know, access to financial services that kept britain inside the financial market. and the more we listen this government and here what they are planning to do, people say actually that is not what we are going to get. fng firms come to london to use it as a hub to do business throughout the whole of europe, they will be rethinking. and frankly big manufacturing companies that invested heavily in britain because this is the gateway to the single market

will also be rethinking because they won't have that gateway so easily. in the end, i am pretty sure we are not going to have a relationship where we have hugely high tariffs between britain and europe. but the uncertainty about what it will look like and the worry that it will be a further apart relationship than would be good for the economy, if you were investing in-- if you were a big multinational thinking of having a huge investment in the u.k. right now, you would surely have pause for thought. >> rose: indeed. so i remember president obama, because i happened to be there at the time, in london saying if you leave, you're going to have to get at the back of the qu eu e. >> but frankly the bigger question is back of the queue or not, the complexity of ent inning a whole load of new trade agreements is mind bog elling. and britain can't start doing that until it's left the eu. otherwise in the eu it can't be doing it. it then has to reapply for membership of the world trade organization as an individual country. right now it's a member as part

of the eu. there is a sort of mind-numbingly complex set of things that have to happen. and the other reason to worry is that right now in this kind of populist antitrade investment that we are in, the ease with which countries will agree to trade deals is just much harder than it used to be. so it is going to take years tor the brits to renegotiate trade deals with lots of countries. it doesn't happen overnight. and in the interim, we're not sure what the rules and regulations will be. so i think in the long run, eventually, where britain ends up depends on three things. it depends on what kind of relationship we end with the eu, hard brexit or soft brexit it depends on what the-- transition of government is, we can't do it in two years so what kind of transition will be and what kind of british policy will be. the best is the closest economic relationship in the single market, a long transition period that allows people time to adjust and sensible open policies in britainment and my worry is that on all of those,

we'll get a worse outcome. >> let me touch on this thing, i want to talk about the economies for a moment. syria, this is a tragedy. this is an international tragedy. >> i mean tomorrow historians are going to look back and question what on earth we were all doing just watching this unfold. >> rose: how could the world stand by. >> yeah. >> rose: and let this happen. >> no. awful. awful. and i'm afraid a big stain on this president's record. >> rose: president obama. >> absolutely. i think that i have long thought that tomorrow's historians will lack back at his domestic record and will rank him as a very successful president. where he achieved-- . >> rose: even though obamacare has its problems. >> of course it has its problems and will it will be amended and changed but basically it say big step forward for american health. >> and dito the response to the financial crisis, i think people will look back and say actually broadly the right thing was done at the right time.

it wasn't perfect but the right things were done. i think foreign policy, the record is much, much more mixed. the pivot to asia was a sensible one but the vacuum created, particularly in the middle east and the perception that the u.s. doesn't care, and the red line in syria-- . >> rose: doesn't want to liedtke. >> the red line in sir why and then ignoring the red line in syria, they have really damaged not just the sort of perception of america, but it's a fundamental and you know -- inability, i think t becomes much clearer when you are outside the u.s. how much that matters. packs americana is an enormous part of global stability and in the arab world there is an absence of the u.s. has made a huge-- . >> rose: that may be a difference between if hillary clinton is elected president, between her foreign policy view and his. >> yeah. >> rose: she is apparently more hawkish. >> well, i think there is a cool raisallism to president obama's

approach, which possibly, which is sort of logical and rational and, you know, i can see that it makes sense from a narrow perspective. it is a very intellectual approach. but i think it underplays the importance to the world of the perception that america is leading and that america is underpinning packs a america. >> rose: and in fact he has said more than once, don't do stupid stuff. i mean. >> but don't just walk away. >> rose: there is a reticence because he did not want to do stupid stuff. >> it is completely understandable. you about i think the consequences of that shift have been pretty damaging. >> rose: okay so here is the economist magazine. this is with the president-- the article he wrote which i'm sure people want called the road to brexit and all that. and over here there is a very, very successful digital company called snapchat. so what does snapchat have to do with the economy. >> well, since last weekend, you can see the economist on snapchat, snapchat discover.

we launched last weekend. we have every weekend provide a series of snaps on discover. why are we doing it? because-- . >> rose: exactly how it will play-- tell me what it will be. >> do you ever go on snapchat. >> rose: i know about snapchat but when i think of snapchat i don't think of the economist. i think of somebody who wants to look at a picture that will disappear. >> snapchat discover has a number of publications, who produce their content in a way for snapchat. so snaps you slide across. you can krol up and get some ere haven't been many publications of the sort of the economist. but we joined last weekend. we had a series of snaps on the future of work. jobs of the future, the future of work. every weekend we will-- it's going to be once a week, we will take a topic, and look at it, do it in a snapchat fore mat but it will be the dna of the economist. it will be our kind of rigor but in the fore mat of snapchat and in an engaging fore mat for

snapchat users. ay with us. sturgill simpson is here, the grammy nominated kentucky native is winning over audiences and earning the respect of country legends. his hard edge sound paired with his existential lyric calling him the new face of old country. the late mer ill haggard said as far as i'm concerned, he std only one out there. simpson latest album and called a sailor's guide to earth. here he is performing the single, all around you. in our studio. ♪ there will be days. ♪ when the sun won't shine. ♪ when it seems like.

♪ a world is against you. ♪ don't be afraid. ♪ life is unkind. ♪ you can let go. ♪ of the things if you choose to. ♪ time slips away. ♪ ♪ slowly. ♪ slowing. ♪ all around you. ♪ and there will be nights.

♪ like you are alone. ♪ just knowing your house. ♪ you're always together. ♪ and long after i'm gone. ♪ i'll still be around. ♪ ♪ flowing. ♪ god is inside you. ♪ all around you. ♪ flowing. ♪ showing you the way. ♪ and time slips away.

♪ ♪ flowing. ♪ flowing all around you. ♪ >> rose: i'm please todz have sturgill simpson at this table for the first time. and it's about time, welcome. >> thank you. >> rose: it's good to have you. >> a pleasure and an honor. >> rose: especially this.

tell me what this represents? >> wow, okay. that's a loaded question, a lot of hard work. but i found the reward from hard work is you get to do more hard work. >> rose: yes, i can tell you that. >> yeah, that was-- that's the direct outcome of a year and a half plus on the road promoting my previous record, and being away from home and my wife and a newborn son at the time. and sort of balancing the fact that my dreams were coming true, and it was providing for my family, but at the same time, it was a little bitter sweet just because things kind of took off all at the same time that my family was forming. so i feel like i missed a lot of that. >> rose: you missed something because something you had dreamed of was happening. >> yes. so that was sort of a heart felt apology/thank you to my wife and son for allowing me to be the selfish artist. >> rose: i love the cover too. >> thank you very much. >> rose: how much of that is

your creation? >> all of that is my vision, but the-- greg burk is the art director at atlantic records, i worked directly with him. and just told him what i wanted and he knew through their outsource of artists and illustrators who to go to to capture it. >> rose: how did you-- how would you characterize what you represent? to have people like merl haggard and others saying what they are saying. it's almost like here's the real deal, thank you very much. >> i don't-- i don't know that i'm necessarily making a focused effort to represent anything. i just know that when we go into studio or when i try to write songs, i guess honesty and trying to represent the human experience from my per do.

i didn't realize that was a dream. my wife sort of had to point it out to me. i have always been a hobbyist musician, i guess, until the last four or five years. >> rose: and you thought were you just doing this as kind of an avocation. >> yeah, it was always more of a cath artic release, in the privacy of home, i have written songs since i was a teenager. but it was never anything where-- i don't want to say-- i have said i'm not a very ambitious person, but i don't think that's the reason it start or to go about pursuing that. because it is an industry where you sort of do have to know how to get a foot in the door. >> rose: and you weren't asking. >> i wasn't asking, no. she just sort of stopped me one night. she's like you know, you're pretty good at this. and i know you love it. so why don't you try to do something with it. >> rose: do what you love. >> right. >> i have always worked really mean yal odd jobs. so i had i guess a strong work ethic. so the second i was able to put

that, apply to something i really love, everything sort of fell into place. >> rose: not everybody can write songs like you do. and you didn't go to school other than that. >> school was never my strong suit. >> rose: either was life. >> yes. >> rose: and maybe of course vision. >> to be honestk i'm probably write poetry more than a write songs. i have to figure out how to put them to music once we get in the studio. but the expression and the words is really where it all starts. >> rose: and then when they compare you to whalen jennings you say damn, that's fine, i'll take that. >> i'll take it, it's strange, it's funny to me because there are probably two or three or people in my mind, if i was trying to emulate anybody, but that is what comes out, i guess there is a very resonant, similar timber and certain ranges of our vocals am but like i said before, there is a lot worse things to be told than hey, you kind of sound like

whalen jennings. >> rose: a lot worse. did you have people who heard you sing say you've got-- there's a quality to your voice. >> sure. >> rose: early on. >> yeah. >> yeah, friends of mine would give me slack, especially my early 20s because i wasn't playing out, i wasn't doing anything with it. and they would just all say man, we would rather sit at home and listen to you play than go to half of the shows we go to. why aren't you doing something. >> rose: and then it takes your wife to convince you to do it. >> right. well, that also had culminated with a point in lie life where i was working a job at the railroad. and i had, you know, thrown myself into it and went from a conductor to a yard master, all the way up to the operations supervisor for the whole facility. and you know, but i realized i wasn't gratified. i wasn't fulfilled and i was really burnt out. and just, you know, 80 hour weeks. and i just kind of hit a point where this can't be it, and she saw that luckily before i did.

and sort of pushed me, bought a little 12 track recorder for me to started making recordings at home. >> rose: you take exsemtions on being labeled a sort of poster boy for traditional country, name some traditional country people. >> sure. >> rose: it's almost like you like-- you like the outlaw. >> i just like not having rules. >> rose: or making them. >> or i like to be able to go from one project to the next without somebody saying you know what you ought to do-- . >> rose: yeah. >> or maybe you shouldn't do that. >> rose: or saying this is where you fit, go fit. >> yeah, and all of those guys that, when you get compared to, my heroes, they were pushing boundaries. they were trying to stake, earlly merl was a very elastic musician. he would go a lot of different directions and incorporate a lot of different musical styles into the guise of country music. so i don't really think i'm breaking ground or doing anything new here. >> rose: but you did say you described your found as having all that dirted and grime and life sauce. >> life sauce. >> rose: what is the life

sauce? >> just, you know, the wrinkles and its scars-- and the-- i like things to have a coheesive deterioration, if that makes sense. sort of-- dish want to make wide screen music so you can just immerse yourself in it. those are the records i always loved, anyway. >> rose: so take us through writing a song for you. just sit down and say okay. >> no, i have never been-- i wish i had that discipline. guys like jayson, a friend and a hero of mine, is he a much more disciplined songwriter. and i just don't have that gift. it usually comes-- . >> rose: but do you wait for inspiration. >> typically, yeah. a melody or a line will come to me and-- i've learned to identify a certain feeling that usually accompanies the good ones. and the good ones come really fast, within 20 or 30 minutes and you're done. and i can be lazy in the respect that if i don't feel that feeling, then a lot of times i

won't chase it and i probably lost a lot of songs because of that. but it's one of those things where you just like, you can't get to a piece of paper fast enough. or you kill yourself slipping out of the shower because you-- . >> rose: you need to write. >> you have to write it down, exactly. >> rose: i once interviewed a long time ago miles davis. and i said to him, what is it about your music. and he simply said the sound, the sound. and in the end, that's it, isn't it? >> that's it. yeah. for me it's-- for one it's a great escape. and two, you're trying to put what most people, myself included, most people included have difficult the-- deficit putting things into words, so finding the words is one thing but then setting that to an auditory landscape is the real

fun, the real challenge for me. >> rose: and the real demand on your creativity. >> yes, absolutely demand on creativity. it's also the microscope that after you go out and spend a year and a half on the road playing your previous record, it's where you find out if you become a better musician, the next time you go in to do it watch. do you now see, hear, know or take into this situation that you didn't have in the toolbox the last time. >> rose: it's a solitary thing? >> the vision is, yeah. but i very much enjoy surrounding myself with people who i'm in awe of. my entire band, they're all artists. incredible musicians in their own right and even just walking out on stage with them, i find that inspiring, literally. but in the studio, you have to be open to ideas. you have to listen. everybody's input, and then decide on the fly sort of if that makes the pieces on the chess board line up. if you hire the right people, i

think, you don't have to do a lot of supervising. >> rose: you self-released your first two albums. >> yes, sir. >> rose: simply because that was the only way you could get them released or because you wanted control. >> in the case of the first album, high top mountain, yes, we did shop that around to just about every label in nashville and even a lot of noncountry independent outlets. >> rose: what do smart people say. >> everybody passed. >> rose: what would they say, it just doesn't work for us. >> i think i was ahead of the curve, honestly. now if i tried to release that first record, i would probably find a lot of homes for it but there is 2012, 2013. >> three years ago. >> yeah, and it's been a very progressive three years in terms of people you know, searching harder to find sounds that maybe they realized they're missing. i didn't get a lot of support on the first one. and the second one i just self-released it because i was ready to put it out and i didn't have time to wait for a bunch of labels to say no. >> there is written from the

perspective of a sailor. >> some what. there is a little marketing behind that. i found in talking directly to a newborn child from the standpoint of someone going to see him, not knowing if-- going to sea, not knowing if they are coming back trk gave me a lot of liberty and freedom to say things that i probably never would have felt comfortable enough to get myself into a place of-- . >> rose: you had to put yourself in the mind of a sailor. >> that vulnerability was the first thing i thought that needed to be palpable. when i was a sailor, i was much younger. i didn't have a family. but i remember just being out there for months on end and looking at nothing and thinking-- . >> rose: thinking what. >> well, think being all the guys around me that were married or had children, what they must be going through. or you think about the guys that are over there now, actually, in a war zone, writing these letters every day. not that getting on a tour bus

and going on the road for months even compares to that, but you know. >> rose: yeah. >> it just, i wanted to do something with all the emotions that i was feeling at the time, which was home sickness, and even though it was providing for my family, like i said, i couldn't shake this little-- wow, this is all really selfish, you know. cuz i'm getting a lot from doing this. but at the same time, i'm missing so much at home. but my wife, again, has realized that if i'm home too long, all of a sudden i probably need to go play music. >> rose: i can imagine. what's oh sarah. >> a song i wrote for my wife. he needed one song for his mother on the album, i thought. also, i got to be honest with you, i realized there is probably nothing more clich err-- cliche in the novel tee about writing music for your

children, but i felt that in itself would be a wonderful challenge to try to do that in a way that wasn't novel tee or, you know, not saying it is free of cliche but just finding a new way to do that. >> rose: and how did they respond? >> the kid? >> rose: way. >> i mean they means will wife too, she loved it, she is my harshest critic. >> rose: oh really? >> yeah. >> rose: how with she criticize. >> tell me to lose, you know, she was an english majork went to tulane so she is a much better writer than i am. she is my muse and my editor i guess. >> rose: maybe she should write some. >> well, i can tell you too much, you know. all the covers, if i ever do a cover on a record, it's usually at her recommendation. she knows-- . >> rose: if you cover a song. >> the nir vana cover was sort of her idea.

♪ likes to sing. ♪ and he likes to shoot his gun. ♪ but he don't know what it means. ♪ he don't know what it means. ♪ no, no. >> rose: let me just understand the whole thing though. because i don't want to mischaracterize it. in terms of mainstream country music. >> uh-huh. >> rose: what are you saying about it, if anything? >> i wasn't saying anything about-- i have no need to call out any of-- anyone personally or any of the individual thases make those records. you know, i don't know them. and i'm sure they're great people. what i am saying about it is obviously there say large audience out there for the kind of records that i am making or a guy like chris stapleton is making or jayson isbull is making. have i no problem with them selling the wares that they have been selling for 25, 30 years. but there are a lot of people

out there that really appreciate hearing the other stuff too. and in a landscape of, for what is essentially a dying antiquated business model, i would think if i were running a label, i would look for ways to sustain my business. and look for artists that are trying to do something on a hor human-- . >> rose: which is what you are trying to do. >> i guess soment i'm not sitting writing songs to try to get radio hits, if that is what you mean. >> rose: but touring is necessary. >> tour is always-- that is the one stant that will always be there from back in the day and going forward. >> rose. >> mus igs play music and fans come to shows. i don't know-- . >> rose: it otherwise the quetion begins to wither. >> i made the comment about-- i don't really want to-- i kind of said what i said and i don't regret it at all but the thing about the merl stuff was really more of a-- an ongoing habit, it seems where they coopt the names of these legends after they are dead. but they don't really show them

much supported in the twilight of their career. you can reference all the american recordings that johnny did with rick rubin. none of those were recognized by nashville am they swept the grammys as they should have loretta lynn had a wonderful album that was snubbed, you know. wait until she passes and see what happens. it is just little thing, you know, when you say, and maybe i'm wrong, and who am i to say anything am but i feel like to answer your question, i'm not saying anything about mainstream music as much as i'm trying to speak to musicians and artists out there that are in the situation i was in five years ago to let them know that there are other avenues. and you can pursue these things and maybe come up short and frustrated, or you can just do your best work and go out there and hit the road and put the work in. you might be surprised. twitter is a very real thing. but also with that said, to feel like to get to this point where i have reached essentially by myself without help from the

industry, if i didn't say these things, what does that say about me. you know. because it is a very real thing that's happening, there is much bigger problems we could talk about in the world. but this is the world i work in. >> rose: yeah. >> you know. >> rose: was the entertainment bit, did that come natural? >> oh, i don't know that i have that bit down just yet. i'm extremely nervous when i walk on stage. i don't really talk a whole lot. i try just to sing the songs and put my mind into the music. >> rose: that gets you going. >> this has all been very recent. we went from playing to 3 or 400 people to playing to 3 or 4,000 people within two years. and i am 38 years old. and i came into this game at a later poapt in life than most people in my position do. so i feel like a lifetime of less than desirable jobs and just being a normal guy, i'm far too normalized to ever really

walk out there and just embrace all of that in a way that, you know-- i guess a 21 year old kid would love it but all i can shall-- myself and all the guys i play with, we're all very extreme perfectionists, so we just want to put on the best show musically speaking every night. and maybe i forget there are other parts that are involved. >> rose: are you the first male on your mother's side who didn't work in the mines. >> yeah, strip mine or deep mine. >> rose: strip mine or deep mine. >> yeah, her father was a foreman on the strip mine for years. my grandfather, my great grandfather was a deep minor. my mom's brother worked on the strip mine. >> rose: there is a sense about you too, there is a message from your life. i know the word message is the worst thing i could have said am but i mean it. in a sense there is lesson. >> this is very porpt to me because-- very important to me because my wife has been a

very-- my life has been a long secretary session of lessons, even mistakes and bad decisions, and being given this opportunity now, i don't want to say late in life but late in life for an aspiring musician am but i feel like if this had all happened at 23, i would have felt destructive. i wouldn't have used the opportunity for what it can be used for. >> rose: why do you think you would have self-destructed. >> i was-- i was at i had a luses for life, candles burning at both ends. >> rose: i hear you on that. but at the same time, you would have been-- . >> you don't have the perspective that you do at 38. i didn't anyway, some of the guys in my band. >> rose: were you 23, did you it at 38. >> no, far from it. >> rose: because you lived life. >> i was living life. and a lot of the guys in my band are younger and extremly talented and i don't ever mince

words about those things. like now is when you should be pouring your all into this. so in ten years you didn't waste it all on a bunch of empty. >> there is a lesson there. >> sure. >> and a lesson to all of white house are not musicians or gifted in terms of those kinds of talents, to just make sure you drink deeply of life. make sure you-- you make sure that your eyes are wide open and that you. >> i couldn't have written a song-- it at 23. >> that tends to the notion that you can't appreciate at 18 war and peace because you have never experienced those kinds of life-- all the rage and jealousy and failure and-- inspiration that is accompanied. >> every day say learning experience. because like i said this has all been such a---- much like 20ed t has been a long chain of very surreal moments.

>> rose: this day. >> this day, yeah. >> rose: what happened this day. >> well, i'm on the k45r8ie rose show. >> rose: that's a big deal. >> that's a big deal. i asked my publicist, does this mean i don't have to do any more interviews because after charlie, what do you do? she said no. >> rose: she said no, you have to do more. well, i'm flat erred you come here. >> thank you very much. >> rose: a sailor's guide to earth, what a great title. and what a-- whoever chose that, that is the lone leeness of the sea and the danger of the sea, yet at the same time,. >> i actually have to give credit to the title to an old navy title. i stole it fair and square from him. >> rose: a sailor's guide to earth. >> it is a play on it. when i was stationed north of seattle before i got out, i had a buddy tim. and we would go up to vancouver, to party, and he had this 78y t bird and we were going across-the-board her one day. we were pretty rough, from the night before. and she said what-- female

security guard at the border she said what is your reason for visiting condition davment and he said i'm doing research for my seconded book. a sailor's guide to british columbia. and she said what is the name of your first book, she said a sailor's guide to tokyo. she just looked at us like i just literally don't have time, just go. >> rose: do those people that you knew back in those years, when you were burning it both ends, did they say to you now thank god because we didn't-- we weren't sure that you would make it? not make it in success but make it in life? or they always knew there was a certain sainness about you that you were not going to go off the deep end. >> yeah, i knew where the edge was. >> rose: yeah. >> and luckily i have a small, select group of individuals in my life who are very important to me. and i think the thought of ever really disappointing them or knowing what, push going too far

was always in the back of your head. like this is probably a good place to tap the brakes. >> rose: i don't know how you know when are you going too far. i suspect. >> there is pretty clear indicators. >> rose: and you wake up and you don't know where the hell you are or where you have been or who you areness. >> still every day, i wake up look out the window of the bus, where are we? >> rose: and make damn sure wherever are you, if are you going to use that town's name, you get it right. >> well, that's true. >> rose: it's good to be in, as they say. thank you, sturgill. >> thank you very much. >> rose: thank you for joining us. see you next time.

♪ here we go again. ♪ what do you say to you. ♪ learn how to let you know. ♪ i run away. ♪ before i go. ♪ give me heart away. ♪ i can't get on with my life. ♪ you can go on with your strife. ♪ ♪ it feels like a bigger dream. ♪ when my cloud starteds coming.

♪ it seems when i could. ♪ ♪ don't worry. ♪ i'll come home. ♪ i'm going to find my way. ♪ i will always find the time. ♪ forgive me if i'm at times seem a little crazy. ♪ but goddam sometimes crazy's how i feel. ♪ and my brain is starting to swirl down. ♪ there's only one thing, girl, i know is real.

♪ the love that i feel. ♪? your own. ♪ ♪ ♪ because now. ♪ ♪ ♪ big old dream. ♪ i am around on the cloud inside. ♪ when my cloud starts coming. ♪ all it seems.

♪ that's when i stop. >> rose: for more about this program and earlier episodes visit us online at pbs.org an charlie >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. >> on tomorrow's pbs newshour jeffrey brown sitting down with seth meyers to discuss how late night hosts are taking o >> you're watching pbs.

>> the following kqed production was produced in high definition. [ theme music plays ] >> yes, "check, please!" people! >> it's all about licking your plate. >> the food is just fabulous. >> i should be in psychoanalysis for the amount of money i spend in restaurants. >> i had a horrible experience. >> i don't even think we were at the same restaurant. >> and everybody, i'm sure, saved room for those desserts. >> you bet.