>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with glenn beck, the conservative radio and television host talking about the election and the the country. >> i've been wrong about donald trump and his performance 4r-78 every step of the way. so i am not willing to count him out at this point. i can't see it. but people are really in a different place than even i thought they would be. they're frustrated, they feel like nobody's listened to them. they've been feeling this way, i think since george w. bush. and the the left felt this way under bush. and some of the republicans or some of the right felt this way.

under obama, the the right really felt like nobody was listening, nothing cared, nobody understood. poking, producting, accusing them of being violent or racist when they just wanted to be heard. >> rose: we conclude this evening with sarah jessica parker. she is now back on hbo in a new series called "divorce." >> the best, i think, marriages or committed relationships, i think what most people probably tell you is they feel better together, right? they feel like it's this fruitful-- this journey, you know, they're like fellow travelers. they have this investment in one another. and she no longer feels she can invest. and she is given up everything. which is also expected and right. like you do. >> rose: glenn beck and sarah jessica parker when we continue. funding for charlie rose is provided by the following:

>> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: glenn beck sheer, one of the country's most outspoken conservative media people. his self-titled show on fox news ran until 2011 when he founded the blaze tv a subscription based online streaming network. his syndicated radio show the glenn beck program can be heard on over 400 stations nationwide. he left the republican party in 2015 after accusing it of being insufficiently conservative. he has been an outspoken critic of republican presidential candidate donald trump. who will talk about that and more. i'm pleased to have glen beck at

this table for the first time. we have been inviting him for a number of years. welcome. >> how are you, sir. >> i'm good. good to have you here. as yogi berra said it's not over will till its over. >> uh-huh. >> rose: but is it over? depends on what it is. >> rose: it is an election in which the democratic nominee hillary clinton wins big against republican nominee donald trump. >> i've been wrong about donald trump and his pompleance almost-- his performance almost every step of the way. so i'm not willing to count him out at this point. i can't see it but people are really in a different place than even i thought they would be. >> rose: how is that? >> they're-- they're frustrated. they feel like nobody's listened to them. they have been feeling this way, i think, since george w. bush.

and the left felt this way under bush. and some of the republicans or some of the right felt this way. under obama, the right really felt like nobody was listening, nobody cared, nobody understood, poking, producting. accusing them of being violent or racist when they just wanted to be heard. what's happened is donald trump has tapped into this and he has taken the small number of people on the at right that-- alt right that are racist, and they have envelopized this movement. and i think because people are in a position now where they unfortunately some want to burn the whole thing down, i don't know how it's going to shall it-- . >> rose: you're the best person to ask this, in a sense, because you know the

conservative world. what is the alt right. >> the alt right, i don't know if you can really describe it yet, it's a growing movement. it has real roots in russia. >> rose: in russia? >> yeah, alexander dugan is somebody that really people should be paying attention to. you will see that 48% of trump supporters believe that putin is a good guy. he's clearly not a good guy. and this comes from this neo eur asian movement that is happening over in russia and starting to spread into europe. i've been watching it for awhile. when i was on fox i warned that you would see the neo nazis start to rise in europe and it would jump over to us. and it would infect the right and it has. >> rose: and sometimes comes under the notion of being a populist movement. >> yeah, well, what's happened is, you have combined here in america, the neo nazis, the

clan, for the first time ever, i'm sure you saw this, about four weeks ago, the neo nazis, the klan and the white supremacists, they all signed a pact together to stand together. they feel this is their opportunity. and so you've united them plus this populist movement. and nationalism. and it's a toxic, toxic brew that, you know-- . >> rose: and the anti-globalization which say populist movment, anti-globalism. >> that is part of this neoeurasian movement. >> rose: which we saw in the breaksity vote as well. >> yes. >> rose: fueled in part by globalization, a loss of jobs and feeling like nobody is listening to you. >> correct. >> rose: an fear too. >> there is an underlying thing that i think is-- there's two pieces that are important. first the underlying feeling, i

think with all americans, and that is i don't feel like i really belong to anything any more. i don't know what the country means. i don't know, i don't know where we're headed. i don't necessarily feel comfortable in my church, in my party. but what i'm saying is people generally don't feel comfortable and know that there is something that they can count on. they don't feel like they belong to anything any more. on top of it, they don't feel like they're being listened to by anyone. and then the third part of that is they don't feel like they have control over their life, over their business. >> rose: and things are going to get worse. >> they could. >> rose: well, they fear that. they fear that their children will not have as good a life as they had and they look at dlinning income standards and they worry about that. >> charlie, i think what's happening is-- . >> rose: and that their jobs are not secure. >> correct.

>> rose: and therefore they blame trade deals and other kinds of factors. >> sheer's where we can show stability. and this is where america, if we are being to survive this as a great nation, if we're going to reverse the trend, the inevitable trend that always happens at the end of empires, if we're going to reverse it, and i think we can, we have to know the difference between authenticity and transparency. know the difference between the justice that we have going on now and real true equal justice. we've been a stable country. the reason why people invest in us and the reason why we are the leader in the world is because we're stable. we don't have revolutions. and-- . >> rose: and because we value rule of law and the whole.

>> and i don't think we do any more. you know, it started with the financial bailouts. i'm not too big to save. you're not too big to save. >> rose: but financial institutions are. >> yeah. financial institutions are. >> rose: to big to fail. >> right. and then on top of it, instead of saying okay, we're going to help you, but now you have to make yourself smaller, we made them bigger. >> rose: here is what i don't understand. >> there is what you have said some fascist and other sort of fringe elements we would call. you think they're becoming-- how have they connected to donald trump? >> and did trump seek them out? >> i think-- . >> rose: with all the birther stuff and other things? was he looking for a base that he thought could give him traction.

>> to quote -- there are many things that i believe that i shall never say but i shall never say the things that i do not believe. so i'm weighing here how much more damage will be done by telling you what you really believe. >> rose: well, tell me what you really believe. >> i'm not sure donald trump is as smart as that as well-read as that, i don't think he is eye deep thinker. i think he goes off his gutted and his gut has done him well for what he does. i do think it there are people around him who are deep thinkers. steve bannon from breitbart is one of those thinkers. he says it has become the plat for for the a-lt right and when they explained it, they said the void for the alt right is-- and i can't remember his name now, but is he a very spooky guy. and his wife is the english

translator for dugan, alexander dugan in russia. so they know exactly what's going on. and i think that there is enough of the-- and i've always hated this, i have never believed in this, but i do believe it's true here. he speaks in dog whistles. whether he knows it or not, he does. and the people around him definitely do. >> rose: he being. >> donald trump. and bannon knows exactly who he is appealing to. bannon is putting together a coalition that whether there is an eventual night of long knives where that coalition goes away, but he knows, he knows who he is bringing into the tent. the average american doesn't. and this has been really concerning to me. i warned about this three years ago. the influence on dugan, he was pouring money into church organizations here in america about gay marriage. and i pointed this out and said

you don't know what you are getting too bed with. you have to be very careful who you are standing next to. you may agree on one thing or another, but you better look into who they really are. because yeah, sure, i might believe in taking care of our borders, but if it's a neo nazi, i'm not going to bond with you. >> rose: so what-- what does the seeming trend in this election suggest to you, that america has said no, no, no, we're not going there. or has it found the messenger simply in their judgement, because of a range of factors unacceptable. >> i think that the right has been, and rightly so in many ways, has been trained that hillary clinton is the worst thing that could happen to us.

that she is-- . >> rose: trained by. >> oh, by the media, by the parties, by people who look for ratings for votes. >> rose: and you are on record saying that is not true. >> not true what? >> rose: that she could be the worst thing that could happen to us. >> no, i think the worst thing that would happen to us is we would lose ourselves, lose what we are and our principles. >> rose: can you imagine voting for hillary clinton. >> no. >> rose: so what will you do? ness with i will vote for-- . >> rose: write? or. >> i think i will-- there's two candidates that i'm okay with. but neither of them are-- i'm not now nor have i ever been a supporter of hillary clinton or donald trump. >> rose: but back to the point of trump, and then how this connection, can are you suggesting using the word dog whistle that show he's not aware of how he has been brought into this? he doesn't get it and he's intoxicated by all that's

happened, intoxicated by the crowd, the rally, the sense of that-- because he talks about himself as a movement, as the leader of a movement. and there is speculation that that is what he wants to do if, in fact, this does not work. that he and steve ban onand others, of having meeting withs investment bankers, do you buy that. >> oh yeah. >> rose: do you think that is the goal. >> may have been. >> rose: the fallback position. >> may have been the goal from the beginning. >> rose: you really do. that this was never-- put together-- about winning, it was approximate branding and about creating an empire that would have a contained and sustainable influence on american politics. >> i think that was bannon. bannon said this is a uniting movement. i think trump thought this would be fun. i'll give it a whirl. >> rose: the worst could happen i will be better known. >> and i might last six months. i don't think he actually saw himself winning. and i think he has put himself in a position now to where if

you look at the financials of his empire, of his hotel empire, when they start changing the name of trump hotels to what are they calling it now, scion, yeah, there is trouble. there is trouble for him. >> rose: but you have-- it's called him a pathological liar, possibly a sociopath. what is the indication that he is a sociopath. >> have you seen him during the last year and a half truly feel for someone that couldn't help him? truly connect on a human level and say, this has made me stop, this has made me think. you know, i'm deeply sorry for what i have said.

you know, a sociopath is somebody who doesn't really see the human experience in anyone else. and i haven't seen that in him. i haven't seen him deeply affected by the human condition in an individual. >> rose: no sense of vulnerability. >> none. frightening. frightening. >> rose: what do you make of the fact that he says, he refuses to see that you, like everybody else will abide by the results of the election. does that go back to whatever you were talking about in terms of some sense of author tairianism which you have raised. >> i think that is-- . >> rose: which astounded people. it was the most important thing coming out of the third debate. >> it is much more important than in even who wins, i think, is are we going to be able to come back together. and i think this is a logical

step, you know, that we started even during the first clinton. you know, the right started playing the game, then al gore, his supporters questioned it, and selected, not elected. then the right again with barack obama and the wirth certificate and now this. >> but the al gore thing came after. >> correct, correct within no, no, i'm just saying, we're upping the ante every time. we're losing faith in the system itself. >> that's the point. >> we cannot do that. >> rose: the drum beat is the system is corrupt. >> that's the drum beat every-- everywhere. the police acted stupidly. before saying what the facts are. but let's look at the facts. let's look at who shot who, when

did it happen, why did it happen. have trust that there is-- the system-- and more importantly, charlie, if-- and this is where, and i'm taking a lot of heat from it. but it has to be done. i have to stop looking at the other side and say-- i mean if anybody wants to know how i feel about hillary clinton, nobody was asking my opinion ten years ago when i'm clearly on the record how i feel about her. they want to know now because it furthers an agenda. what we have to do is-- . >> rose: well, they also want to know now because, a lot of people who could not imagine themselves voting for her are prepared to vote for her. because they look at this choice. they look at the choice. they are republicans, they are independents. she and donald trump both were unpopular candidates and they couldn't imagine voting for her but the election has drove them to that point. >> i know. and i think there are a lot of republicans that were not on

board with trump at the beginning. that are now looking at her and they're voting for something that they would never dream of doing. >> rose: trump. >> right. and so we're in this place, to where we're making it about the other person instead of about our principles. and what we have to do, charlie, is we have to take the beam out of our own eye, if we are going to restore our nation, and get back to a place to where the rest of the world will trust us again, the only way to do it is not for the media to make fun or to point out the wrongs of the right but for the leaders in the right, in the conservative, to stand up and clean out their own house first, clean out their own life first. >> rose: clean out their life means what. what is it the conservatives need to do about their own life? >> i think that the damage that

is being done in the churches right now is far greater than jim and tammy fai or jimmy swag ert ever did. >> rose: that was 20 years ago. >> that was 20 years ago and look how hard it took to get past that. >> rose: but also you have a very popular pope. >> yeah. >> rose: or not, i think he's popular. >> yeah, i do. i'm trying to understand. >> rose: what i am saying, here you have the catholic church. >> they are in the midst of a very popular pope. >> because he seems authentic and because he seems of the people because he seems. >> he also seems to say i will call out the sins of my own people first. and so-- . >> rose: or myself first. >> yes, and that's what has to happen. that's why-- i mean i'm getting a lot of heat for not talking about hillary clinton. well, anybody who listens to me know how i feel about hillary clinton. what's important now is how do we feel about us and the

decisions we're making. and what really request help, and i understand it now, from the press, i really do. i think the press is so freaked out by donald trump that let's just not really look at the wikileaks things. let's not look at some of these scandals and the fbi. let's not look at it right now because they're freaked out by donald trump. when that passes, if the press wants their credibility back, they must go back and look at that and say okay. we must stand for equal justice. if it's wrong, even if it furthers my side. >> rose: i'm not sure this is what you are saying. >> if you looked at wikileaks, what does this say? what are we learning about the way power works in washington. that's part of what you seem to be saying. >> we will see a system, and we will understand how the levers of hoyer work in that system. >> rose: correct. >> and we'll understand how there is a kind of affinity

among people who are part of the system. >> and there is an excusing of those players, on both sides, if it is my side. and we have to stand for the rule of law. washington said that we are a nation of laws and not men. we're now a nation of men, of people and not laws. and he also said-- . >> rose: well, i mean-- washington clearly said that, and that's why he did not want to be king. >> correct. >> rose: that's why he chose to not run again after serving two terms. >> i think we have royalty on both sides. >> rose: you mean bushes and clintons. >> no, no, no. the whole thing. look, all the way down to this, everything that shaping with donald trump right now, all of the ang sayingses, the people who are de-- defending him in

those accusations are all the people that did not accept those same excuses back in the '90s. back in the '90s when it happened to bill clinton,. >> rose: when he was president. >> yeah, and they were all saying the exact opposite. but because they are a nation now of men and not universal laws, they will say it doesn't matter. well, no, wait a minute. if you are a nation of laws, it mattered then, so it matters now. but if it advances our argument or our side, we dismiss it. that has to stop. on both sides. it has to stop. >> rose: well, there was a media friendy-- frenzy about bill clinton, number one. number two, there was a vote of impeachment in the house. >> yeah, but look at the-- look at the pattern of-- . >> rose: so there was rule of law took place. >> yeah, yeah, i'm talking about

the general argument at the time was it didn't happen. it didn't happen. and then okay t did happen, but it doesn't matter. and the right was saying it did happen, cuz look at how many accusations there are. something's not right here. >> rose: you mean the women who came forward to say-- the same people that. >> correct. >> rose: the same people donald trump wanted to at a press conference before the debate. >> correct. so you flip it and his argument is what, a vast left wing conspiracy snr it's the same argument. it doesn't matter. we're not electing a pope. it is a vast left wing conspiracy. it's the same thing. that is where i think people are tired. they're tired of-- charlie, do you know anything that we as a people have spent more time on in the last ten years than arguing about the president? one way or another. this one, bush, the next one,

we've-- . >> rose: bush, obama and the next one. >> yeah, i mean since 2 thousand, it seems like all we are doing is arguing about the president. what could we have done with our time, with the man hours that the average person has been in. and the average person is not playing a game. >> rose: well, you could also argue, what could we have achieved if we didn't have gridlock in washington for all the reasons. >> yeah, i'm saying, what i am talking about however-- . >> rose: because of the power of the country, the resources in the country, because of, you know, all the possibilities. >> and with an urgent need to look at everything from infrastructure. >> i think we're talking two different things. >> rose: to seens to a whole range of things. >> i agree with you. you're looking at the political picture. i'm looking at the the civilian or societial picture, okay.

you're right. look at the things we could have accomplished. but what i want to focus on, and this is why it's more important to talk about what happens after the election. >> rose: which is where. >> okay, go ahead. >> is the people feel as though they mebt it. they meant it. not everybody apparently because we learned this with the trump movement. they meant it. i really am against these things and i'm for these things. and so i stood up. a risked being called names. i went and did things that made me very uncomfortable, by going to rallies. i'm not that guy. >> rose: for the record, you supported ted cruz. >> yeah, and so we-- we did things as families only to have the republicans betray us over and over and over again. and we have felt likeu, they don't really believe in

anything. they believe in their system, and their jobs and what they want to do. and they're using us. >> rose: in terms of people across the dri who are just enchanted with everything. >> with everything,. >> rose: and believe. >> correct. and what we have to do is we have to fine leaders in and out of washington, leaders in ourselves that say no, i do stand for these principles and they are unwaivering. >> rose: and those leaders should come from? churches? from. >> everything. they should come-- . >> rose: from government? >> from the press. >> rose: outside government. >> and from the-- bakery, everywhere. >> rose: when you think about the kinds of things that brought you so much attention on television, at fox, on the radio, is there an evolution in glenn beck. >> i hope so, charlie. >> rose: i know you do. and you are a growing and

evolving human being with responsibilities to family, to country, to self. you have got an empire in texas. and and-- good for you. but has any of this in a sense changed because of what you see in the politics, affected you personally so that it changes your own attitude about what you do with yourself and your time? >> charlie, when it was rolling stone just did an article or dn-- . >> rose: i read it. >> so they said in what was it, 2006 or 7 that i was the forth most admired man between the pope and nelson mandela. >> rose: i did see that. >> then a year later, i am glenn beck, the fire breathing, you know, radical. i don't think any man can go through that swing without changing anything and also be the guy who is hated by half of

the country without deep, profound reflection. am i any of-- am i any of those things? >> rose: so when you look at that, i mean are there things that you did that you now say of course. i regret i did that. >> of course. >> rose: like what? what is the best example of that? >> rose: what you say i wish i hadn't done that, or fanned that flame. >> easy. reading the president's book, where he talks about the white culture, hearing him say plition act stupidly. getting on fox news and saying, you know, i think, i think this guy has a deep seeded problem with white people. >> rose: you said more than that. >> i said-- i think i said es he a racist, i don't remember. i said bad things. i own them all. i own them all.

wrong. wrong. wrong-- right to be able to think, to search, i was searching for who is this man. where is he coming from. you read his book, he talks about this, the way the quite culture will do you. where does that come from. >> rose: i assume it came from his experiences. >> correct, correct. but how much of a role does it play, to be able to question is important. to say those things as flip antley as i said, to pile on, not good. >> rose: you were never part of the birther thing. >> never, never. >> rose: fast forward to this campaign season for glenn beck. i mean you have praised loudly michelle obama and her speeches. >> yes, a speech.

>> rose: the convention speech and the speech about women. >> yeah. i thought they were very good. >> rose: to her credit. >> you raised her because you thought that she was. >> the last speech she gave was, what was it,. >> rose: she gave it and basically said it hurts me to my core talking about. >> yeah, yeah. >> rose: the famous speech at the convention and the. >> the speech that she gave about donald trump and being uncomfortable as a woman to her core, i thought was really well delivered, spot on, and important. now the subtlety here is she also praised beyonce so not in that speech, but is that, is beyonce a good role model. and this dispicible, i think there's some place in between here, that we need to find.

but i thought her speech spoke to women. >> rose: i admired her here but not here because i had some differences differences with respect to this. >> correct. >> rose: hillary clinton, let's assume she does win. even in texas you justing ised to me, she is doing well in texas. texas? >> i know. >> rose: could win texas. >> i know. >> rose: my point here. >> i'm not sure she will. >> rose: i'm not either. and we don't know. >> but for it to be in play. >> rose: exactly. >> speaks volumes, not of her, about donald trump. and anyone who says that it's the people, cuz this is the charge right now. it's the people like you, glenn beck, who are standing up and not getting into the boat. no, no, it's about donald trump. we have to stop being about the r or the d and about principles. if this man ran for the democratic party, the people who

are standing up, most of them, not all of them, who are standing up now heralding him, would be slicing him to ribbons. and it's-- he's a more than imperfect and flawed messenger. because his message is the wrong message. >> rose: so therefore back to a point you made in the beginning when we were talking about who it is that has people who feel left out in america. >> yeah. >> rose: where they are in terms of, i'm just saying how they feel about their own circumstances, and that the system has not worked for them, and don't feel like anybody is listening to them. would you recommend that hillary clinton has a first order of business if she is elected, and if she is inaugurated on january 20th, ought to make sure that she tells those people and speaks to those people and says i'm listening. you didn't vote for me, necessarily, but i'm here. >> if i can quote george

washington again. deeds, not words. whoever wins-- . >> rose: what would be those deeds? >> i don't know, charlie. i don't know. >> rose: because that's what. >> it starts with cleaning out your own house. making sure, doing things like you know, the irs has been weaponnized. and would be weaponnized for the the right just as easy as it would be weaponnized on the left. >> rose: weaponnized meaning being used for political purpose. >> yes. >> take a stands and deweaponnize something. do something that hurts your party cause. not your principles but your party cause. do something, put it on the table and say in the spirit of coming together, it is important that we restore this principle. and i don't know if anybody's willing to do that. but that's what-- i think that's

what has to happen. words wouldn't cut it any more. somebody has to be bigger than-- somebody has to self-sacrifice. >> rose: back to you. you know, the same rolling stone piece i think suggested that glenn might be changing his business and he may be going out of this and into this and something. are you after election, are you in 2017 going to be any different than you are today in terms of how you communicate and the kinds of radio and television and ways and all of that? >> is any of that going away or are you reinforcing any of that? >> no, none of that is going away. i am reinforcing and retooling for the future as everybody, every business should be, knowing that if you don't retool every three, four years, you will be going out of business. so i'm retooling that. as far as message, i hope i'm different. >> rose: what's the battle within the conservative

community today that more leakily to be plaidz out after this election if things happen the way-- polls indicate. >> where, who, i think the most important question is the question that cavemen asked at the fire, who am i. who are we? and i think we need to ask that as individuals, as families, as communities, as parties, as a country. who am i? what do i really believe? what is worth dying for what is worth living for, what have we learned over the last 200 years that we see this is the essence of who we are, this is what made us great. this is what made us stable. this is what brought us out of, you know, darkness and the cold

into warmth, into this. >> rose: well, people with have very different political views than you are saying the same thing. and then they should come together as you say, first speak to the issue. and then do something. >> yeah. >> rose: which is the deeds. thank you for coming. >> charlie, thank you. >> rose: glenn beck, pleasure to you have. back in a moment. stay with us. sarah jessica park certificate here. she stars in the new comedy veers "divorced" it am coulds from creator sharon horgan, she and thomas hayden church play a new york couple who decided to end their marriage after almost two decades. the project marks parker's return to hbo12 years after the series finale of sex and the city. here is a look at "divorce." >> how many times. >> how many times what? >> you know what i'm talking about. how many times did you have intercourse with his french penis.

>> oh. >> 30, 32. >> what the-- 32! you had sex 32 times? >> rose: i'm pleased to welcome sarah jessica parker. back to this table, welcome. >> thank you. >> rose: so that's what brought you back to television. >> yes, that scene, that very scene. >> rose: being able to reflect on how many times you had seen-- whatever. >> yeah, well, sort of. the landscape, the territory. it was an idea that i had about four years ago. i mean generally speaking, i was curious about exploring marriage and long-term committed relationships. and i think i was looking at friends in my life and the

various stages they found themselves, whether in the conventional institution of marriage or just having these long, these commitments that were substantive, meaningful. and it was interesting and curious to see people at various points, of reckoning, of con tell plating, big decisions, you know, divorce, affairs. i just think it's such rich landscape and material. >> rose: but then with that idea, did you then look for the right kind of, you know, the right kind of piece of work. >> yes. >> rose: that could you go sell hbo on. >> sure, yes, exactly. >> rose: so in other words, this was in a sense something that came from you wanting very much to find the right thing to return to television. >> actually. >> rose: the right vehicle. >> no, it was among several things that i was producing and developing. i little company at hbo called pretty mattress productions. and it was just an idea among many that i was interested, that

i found compelling. it wasn't until much later in the process that it was revealed to me that hbo was assuming or even very generously hoping that i would play the wife in this story. and that was a big decision to make. because i knew what that meant. but the further-- . >> rose: what did it mean? >> it meant as you know, an enormous commitment. and i spent a lot of wonderful years, you know, and those years included, you know, 80 to 100 hour weeks being in front of the camera and behind it. and i loved the process of producing television, but it deserves all of you. and when are you giving 30 minutes on hbo, you better be freaking deserving of those 30 minutes. so that means you cross the finish line bloodied. and the more that we developed this story, and the idea, the

more it became impossible for me to say no. and frankly, i wasn't generous enough in spirit to offer this to somebody else. because it was-- it was the first woman in a long-- it was the first woman since playing carrie bradshaw who was as complicated as human, as willing to illustrate shortcomings and triumphs and be disappointing to people and reliable. and a deeply committed person and somebody who is-- has surprisingly bad judgement. and all of that makes for a very exciting-- . >> rose: what does it say about marriage, that it's difficult, that it's complicated, that there are affairs, that people. >> yes, i think it says all of that. i think it also speaks of-- it's a portrait of a marriage now, you know.

a marriage that is-- that is struggling financially, because of our economy, because of choices that the partners made, it is a marriage that is complicated by infidelity. it is a marriage complicated by revelations about financial fraud, and children and-- . >> rose: all the things that make marriage difficult. >> and yet amusing and ridiculous and it's also an examination of an attempt at divorce and what does that endeavor mean for most families of working americans, you know, who aren't superwelt wealthy, who are clinging to middle class and trying to do it right and be decent and honorable in the process. who orbits around divorce, who feeds on divorce, what does it do to your friendships. so like i said, i think there's a lot to say. >> indeed. we see all of this here. do we see the process of her

coming to the realization that divorce is the only way? >> yes. and the pilot episode, we, she's at a dinner party, seemingly benign event and there is a sort of monumental moment between molly shannon's character and tracy letz character and a gun is pulled and a shot is fired. and it is sort of the undoing for francis. and she realizes as she finally reveals that she has felt this sort of inertia in her marriage which has felt like somebody stepping on her chest. and as she says to her husband, as a body is being removed behind her, that she wants to save her life while she still cares about it, which for me is like the-- . >> rose: i want to save my life while i still care about it. >> and he is devastated and though they have been to counseling, have been married 17 years, they've gone back, they have recommitted, all the things

that people do when they take vows, and are serious grownup, mature people, she feels she can no longer do that. and it's revealed that she is also having an affair which is awful and even more brutal. and the tables sort of turn. and he goes from being a terribly sim pathetic husband who wants to convince her that she is in shock and they still have this chance, to being devastated. and sort of a come bat begins. >> rose: take a look, this is where francis learns that robert once had an emotional affair with an old friend. here it is. >> hang on, hang on. you're talking about your old college buddy kathy desantis, aren't you. >> i don't see how naming names look, i didn't say it is or is not kathy what is her name. >> is that who you talked on the phone all the time and emails and she even went on a fishing

trip with him. >> yeah, it was a group tripness. >> an when i got suspicious because yes, of course i got suspicious and jealous and everything because it just seemed weird, he convinced me that i had trust issues. >> because you did have trust issues. >> the point is i started seeing a therapist to find out what was so wrong with me that i was freaked out about my husband and his old platonic college buddy. >> your study buddy, junior senior year. >> i was right to be su pi shus. because he was having an emotional affair with her the whole time. >> that's not an affair. we didn't. >> so what, so what. you know what, i want every single detail. i mean if i am going to be able to move forward, mi going to want every single detail of the emotional affair you had with ktee desabtis just like you wanted from me.

>> okay. first of all, you're right. it was ktee desantis. >> i know. >> we know. >> all right. >> you cast him, you the executive producer, you wanted thomas hayden church. >> i did. we were all on the phone call. sharon, our show runner, producing partner and he was the name i offered up as a long shot and he hadn't worked in television in about 20 years. he and i had i, we did a movie together six or seven years ago. we didn't play opposite one another. it was called smart people but i-- but i loved working with him in the brief moments we had. and i am a long time admirer of his work. we went back and forth, he's go-- going to say no. i said well maybe we should let-- let's not say no for him. let's let him say no so we send him the material and i wrote him a letter and asked would he consider it. and he read it and said yes

immediately. and it's-- it's just been-- fantastic. >> rose:. >> he's such an exciting ak tore work with because he brings all sorts of treats and gifts and surprise and he is very serious about the work. but as you can see, is he-- he is innately a funny person. he likes to find humor but he is also a person who feels thing actually rather deeply. and i think he brings a sort of tennerness, a sort of heart-rending simplicity in a way, to complexity. like he gets to its essence. but he's also just deeply committed to the work, always. and for me, to have somebody who

is equally invested, who understands the sort of privilege-- . >> rose: i assume because are you the star of this, you know, that it was essential that you were the one who had the affair, is for-- story development. >> no, i think it was more that the story dictated that. i think it makes-- . >> rose: let me interrupt you. because you knew who the character was so the story dictated that. >> yes, i liked, and it wasn't my idea necessarily although from the beginning when i thought about the story, i thought that she should be having an affair. i thought it was a story that was real, and existed around me. and that this idea of a woman having an affair, which we don't-- in this way, is not, in this tone is not something that had been examined, used to look at it more, used to see more of that idea.

but also that it was not really comedic look i just like that she had made this, some might argue really bad decision, poorly timed, ill-advised. and that she had to very quickly sort out what it actually meant to her in order to salvage her family life. >> are children involved in this. >> two children. 10 and 14. >> she is always at the center of it. >> yeah, i mean it just makes things much more challenging and complicated and for francis, the stakes feel inorder antley high because her husband as happens has threatened to use them, to you know, to share with them what a bad person she has been. and as he says through the door at the last moments of the pilot episode, he's going to make them

hate her. which is you know, pretty of the most devastating idea a mother could fear. >> drive a wall between children and mother. >> but you feel, she feels complicit, even in the conversation and the threat. >> i'm interested as always what is the moment of inflection, as you said, when you say to save my life while i have a life. >> while i still care about it. >> yeah. >> what is that. >> what does that mean, because it's interesting in terms of how people-- because i think people get divorced, think about it a long tame before they get divorced, the fun, they reach the breaking point when they reach a moment which i have no other choice. >> right. and i guess it's the difference between the things that annoy you actually not mattering because things that really start to matter, i guess for francis, what she feels is she describes it in a later episode, in episode six, actually, she talks with her parents when she finally tells, share this news with her parents which is she

feels an enormous disappointment and failure. she feels, she talks about being in this marriage and recognizing that something wasn't right. and they talk about having already been to counseling and recommitting. but she talks about this idea of feeling this emptiness, this, as i have described it, this sort of inertia, like somebody is stepping on one of your lungs, like you're just not able to breathe completely. and that she kept hoping he would see it and when he didn't see t and when she would bring it to his attention and when she danced around it, he simply was unable to hear it in a way that was meaningful to her. so i think for her, what it means is she feels like a part of her is dying. and i think that's what ultimately people do feel in divorce. that it's no longer a place where you are thriving. and the best, i think, marriages and committed relationships, i think what most people probably

tell you is they feel better together, right. they feel like it's this fruitful exercise-- this journey. they're fellow travelers or they have this investment in one another. and she no longer feels she can invest. and she's giving up everything. which is also expected and right. you do. but when there seems to be no return or when the other party seems to be kind of blind to the contributions, and diminishing of them, i think a lot of smart people feel like they have to salvage what's possibly left in front of them. >> rose: this must occupy all of your life now. >> it takes up a huge, wonderful chunk. but it's also a finnity period. so i know that there is this big demanding muscular thing that sits in front of me for four to six months. and it shoots in new york city

and they very graciously let me be at a parent teacher conference. and so you know, that's the beauty of television. is that it is a really t say calender and there is eventually there is a blue print that works beautifulfully. and it is time consuming but i love-- i love being back at home at hbo. i didn't realize until i was really there that-- how much i missed television. how much i love the medium. >> rose: what about television did you miss? >> i love the-- i love as strange as it sounds, i love the limitations. i love the urgency. i love this idea that potentially you're in this alternate universe where you are playing somebody else. sometimes spending more time being another person than in fact you are your own. that you keep learning about this person. and the other people that surround your person.

that you are playing. that there is pace, necessary, and budget, and you know, just, you know, how do we be a show for hbo? what does ta mean to us. how do we figure out tone and environment and you do it at this maddening pace that i think really becomes about the work. i think on movies sometimes if are you fortunate and you have a budget, there's a lot of time waiting. which is great if you are a reader. because you can read all the time. but there is really nothing better than when you are working, when the cameras rolling, and you're opposite an actor that challenges you and draws you in and you don't know what they're going to say and you're just simply responding, you're in a sort of partnership,

it's thrilling. >> rose: good to you have here. >> thank you for having me. >> rose: thank you for joining us. see you next time. for more about this program and earlier episodes visit us online at pbs.org and charlie rose.com captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

>> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide.

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