. >> rose: two jobs and washington week is my sand box on friday nights and the newshour is my serious work every other night of the week. and then on top of that i didn't really take a book leave. so writing this it book-- . >> rose: when would you write? >> i would write late at night and early in the morning and lock myself in on the weekends. fortunately there was just enough parallel to what was happening around me, every now and then the story kept shifting. one day i was writing about the only black governor and then eliot spitzer and no longer only one black governor, since the book came out there were a couple of indictments there are

indictments but things keep changing. because it is a story had been carrying around in my head in different ways my entire career, little by little, unaware, it really came in-- . >> rose: did it all come pouring out. >> it did, in ways i didn't anticipate. i didn't know when i was covering the boston school committee in 1978 when my first job out of college, and watched the way that school busing created such clashes in boston, i didn't know that that was going to be a theme that i could track through suburban baltimore and washington and throughout my entire career. and from the point of view of black candidates and white candidates where race is always going to be the class, the tipping point, the clash, the flash point. and so when it all came together, the obama campaign provided a frame for a story, it turns out i had been writing my whole life.

>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with bernie sanders. >> now i know it's easy for mr. trump, and some, not all of his friends to meet-- beat up on muslims and mexicans, that's toaz beat up on somebody that makes eight bucks an hour and has no power, or eye little girl wearing a ker chief, being a muslim. very easy, do you have the guts to take on wall street or the drug companies ripping us off, take on corporate america where major corporations don't may a nickel in feds ral taxes in a given a year, that is your challenge. >> rose: we continue with lesley stahl of "60 minutes." >> he was deliberately serious, dlin rately somber, almost, compared to the way he had been before am and thoughtful. and i am-- he is very smart in the way he both sticks to his guns and signals i'm going to make some changes. you know, there is a balance. there and he's trying to find the right balance, but he's letting us know that there will be both.

>> rose: we conclude with bob costa of the "washington post." >> with bannon, pay attention to the disruption he brings in the confrontations with the media, with foreign leaders and with even republicans in congress. bannon having covered him for eight or nine years and knowing him, is he someone who is a master at political theater, and he is in a way brought down a house speaker in john boehner through his website breitbart, he put in immense pressure on the house leadership. he brought down a house speaker, and-- . >> rose: sanders, stahl and costa when we continue. >> rose: funding for charlie rose is provided by the following: and by bloomberg, a >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide.

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. bernie sanders is here. he was an independent senator from vermont with loy name recognition when he announced his candidacy for the presidency of the united states. that was in may 2015. he had very little money, no political organization. and he took on as his chief competitor hillary clinton in the democratic primary. sanders went on to receive more than 13 million votes in primaries and caucuses across the country winning 22 states. his campaign struck a powerful cord with many young voters and is credited with inspiring a new generation of political act 1reu68. with donald trump's stunning win over hillary clinton in last week's election the democratic party's future has been called into question. sanders new book chronicles his experience on the campaign trail and outlines his vision for this country's future. i am pleased to have him back at

this table. welcome. >> very nice to be with you. >> when did you write this? did you keep a diary? did you what? >> i wrote it over a three month fran particular period working you know, 12 hours, 13 hours every day. so i started it it it after the democratic convention. and just worked very hard for three months. >> and it is, in fact, what? >> it it is a couple of things. the first half of the book talks about just the issues that you raised. talks about the campaign, starting off, taking on the entire political establishment, the democratic establishment, the clinton organization, the media which did not take us seriously. also wall street and all these corporate america. and it talks about being on the campaign trail, the kind of support that we developed, the kinds of coalitions that we put together. and the fact that especially among young people, and working

people, we struck a real nerve. the fact is that in virtually every primary and caucus that we engaged in we won the very strong support, overwhelming support of young people, people under 40 years of age which tells me that the ideas that we brought fourth are the ideas for the future of america. so that's one part of the book. it talks about why. what does it mean to be talking to working families in the middle class and low income people and young people. how do we get them involved. and the second half of the book does something that i think we need to do a whole lot about. and that is to answer some very fundamental questions that we don't talk about. you know, charlie, put it right on the table. for the last 40 years the middle class of this country has been in decline. and we have seen during that period a massive shift of wealth and income from the middle class to the top one tenth of 1 percent. how often do we discuss that issue? why are we the only major country on earth not to provide health care to all people as a right and yet we spend more per

capita than any other people. why are we the only major country not to have paid family in medical cleef leave. what are we going to do about climate change, criminal justice reform, immigration reform. so with the second half of the book is really a sense, these is is a blue print for ance in america which works for all of us, not just the few. a blue print for an america in which we lead the world in transforming our energy system, in which we come together and not allow ourselves to be divided up. two parts, the campaign trail and it is a prescription for how we go forward. >> its second part you talked about during the campaign. those are the issues you talked about. >> that's right. >> you met with secretary clinton before the democratic convention. you essentially believed that she pleefed in what you did. for the most part. >> well, what happened after the-- after the primary was over and she won, we sat down together and essentially what we said, how can we work together. i had proposed throughout the campaign making public colleges

and universities tuition free. she had a different approach but it was a strong approach. she ended up coming together with me and saying all right, we'll make public colleges and universities tuition free for all families under $125,000 a year. that's 83% of the population. that's a pretty big deal. she also came in agreement with me on a major program to expand community health centres so we can have almost universal primary care. i'm a believer in medicare for all single pay err prom, that is not her view but we did get a major expangs in community health centres i thought on issue after issue she was far superior over mr. trump, i campaigned hard for her. >> rose: you wouldn't do that if you didn't think she was essentially cross to where you were in your. >> we can argue nuance here. certainly on every issue. she very importantly, understands that big money and citizens united is destroying our political system. she was in favor of overturning

citizens united, so am i, an enormously important issues. she certainly understands the seriousness of global warming unlike mr. trump. so on many, many issues our positions were strong, and i was happy to campaign for her. >> rose: and did she, was she in the end with you on terms of wall street? >> well, you have to ask her. you know, she had-- . >> rose: you say that, that means no. >> no, it doesn't. it means that you never will know. and sernlt one of the interesting moments right now, you know, mr. trump, amazingly enough during the last week of the campaign, he said i am going to be a strong defender of the working class. how often do you hear that used, you done hear democrats saying we've going to dpend the working-- am i right. >> rose: no, you're right. >> this was the trump. >> rose: you think what, he recognized at some point in the wanting moments of the campaign that this was a call that he had to make and try it reach out. >> he used language that many democrats don't. and so we are going to do and what my job as united states

senator is, in the next many, many montds or years is to say you talked about the problems facing the working class, right. you talked about how people are working longer hours for lower wages. okay. here is our ideas. we want to raise the minimum wage to a living wage. mr. trump, are with us, we want to create millions of job by rebuilding a crumbling infrastructure, are you with us. i know it is easy for mr. trump and some, not all of his friends to beat up on muslims and mexicans, easy to beat up on somebody that it makes $8 with no pore, or little girl wearing a ker chief, a muslim, easy to beat up on the powerless. do you have the guts to take on wall street or the drug companies ripping us off, take on corporate america where major corporations don't pay a neckel in federal taxes in a given year. that is your challenge. >> rose: but he-- so let's ask ourselves, you were surprised that he won. >> i thought that going, i thought it was 2-1 that hillary would win. >> rose: 2 to 1. >> i wasn't shocked, surprised.

>> rose: why did he win? >> i will tell you why. because what the-- what the media doesn't understand, what the establishment doesn't understand, is there are tens of millions of people who are not racists, who are not sexist, they are hurting. charlie, you make 30 or 40,000 a year, are you a single dad. how do you afford 12, $15,000 a year for child care. how do you do that, one-third of your income. you are 60 years of age-- . >> rose: but you get to housing, food. >> taxes and everything else. >> rose: medical. >> exactly. one single thing, child care. you are 60 years of age, you will be retiring in a few years. >> rose: if you have a job. >> you are not going to have a job. if you are 50% of older american workers, you know how much money you have in the bank for retirement, charlie. >> rose: zero. >> what do you think? you're scared to death. and you're getting sick. you go to the doctor, you have an illness, how do you pay for that. if you are middle-aged right now, you have a couple of kids

and you have health insurance but you have very high deductibles and copairmts and you can't afford prekription drugs, are you scared to death. that is a reality that the establishment, pbs, nbc, abc, that is ignored. but that is what millions of people are experiencing every day. they are hurting am you are a worker. you worked in a factory with pride. >> rose: but the question is why did they vote for donald trump rather than hillary clinton. >> because he spoke with passion to tho those issues. he used the word, i will defend the working class. i'm anti-establishment. i'm going to take them on. >> rose: i'm against washington. >> i'm against everything. now the question is, i happen to think he's a very good entertainer. i never believed him for a moment. now i hope very much that he proves me wrong. and this is a strange guy, is he nobody's fool, that we are can recognize. will he, in fact, looking at america, understand that some of the horrific things that he said during the campaign and things that he has done in his life like leading the birther

movement, to delegitimize our first african-american president was a horrible thing to do. will he recognize that you can't disrupt the lives of millions of people, say we are going to throw people out of this country who have been here for years working, will he stop this anti-muslim. >> do you think he did the birther thing before he said no, i believe that he is an american citizen, and has a birth certificate, do you think he did it for political reasons period, that he knew better? >> i'm not his psycho analyst, i don't know. but clearly it was racist, nothing less than a very racist effort which got him a lot of a tengsz among certain types of people. at best, it it was just simply a gimmick for him to gain some recognition among extreme right wing people. >> rose: you know what surprises me, you have not talked to hillary clinton since this defeat don't tell me that, that is-- you know bet are a than that, it takes five minutes to talk to her for her to call

you, or you to call her. >> we will. >> rose: but come on, no. >> before this day is over. >> rose: that says something to me though, i mean. >> hillary clinton and ri not-- . >> rose: you're not animus. >> charlie, let me-- what is i think a little bit more important is that in the last week of this campaign, i was in 12 states giving 21 rallies, speaking to 20,000 people on behalf of her. >> rose: before the election. >> before the election. so i think i played my role. i felt that it was important that hillary clinton be elected and that is what i did. but i want to get back to, you asked me a question. why did trump win. and it has nothing to do with my relationship with hillary clinton. trump won because millions of people are hurting. and very few folks are talking to their pain. and there's an enormous amount of pain in this country. >> rose: there is a saying going around, that for the elite, the establishment, and you're an elite. you are a member of the united states senate. >> no, stop it.

>> charlie, wit a minute, of course i'm a united states senator. if you want to say northbound in the sna. i spent my entire life fighting for working people and i come from the working class. >> rose: you have special privileges because you are a member of the most exclusive club, in washington, you are recognized. >> well, i don't accept-- . >> rose. >> i accept that i'm a senator. >> rose: you are one that is responsive and recognizes. >> your point. >> rose: okay, my point is, i guess my point is, is a sense that when he used his own rhetoric to appeal to them and with terms of her on analysis of the election, she says that they were on a roll, that they were marching to victory and they were suddenly stopped by the comey announcement that he was reopening the investigation. >> well, i think the comey investigation was totally inappropriate. i think it hurt hillary clinton. >> rose: you said there was a time. >> and it do have made the difference, the margin of difference. i think she may well be light.

>> rose: could have made the margin of difference. >> of course it could have. >> let's not fer get she got more votes than mr. trump. and in several states she lost by a half, just a few votes so it could have made the margin 6789 i'm not saying she was wrong. but there is a deeper question. the deeper question is, you always go back and think about this tactic or this event that happened. the deeper question is, how do we lose, and i-- to a candidate who proposes to give huge tax breaks to the wealthiest people in this country, who proposes-- . >> rose: tax breaks to corporations. >> to corporations, proposes to throw 20 million americans off of health insurance who does not believe in the reality of climate change and who has attacked, well, his record on women is beyond, you know, it's almost unspeakable. attacking african-americans and latinos and muslims. how do we lose a race like that. that goes a lot deeper than what the fbi did, a lot deeper than that. that speaks to where the

democratic party is today, how it sees it itself. what is the democratic party? you know what concerns me very much, we had a lot of democrats who spend much of their life, you know what they do, they are out raising money from wealthy people. in this day and age as a result of citizens united money is very important. i know it it. but you can't just spend your entire life raising money from the wealthy people. what trump was doing to his credit, he was going out holding rallies. he was going all over this country, in rural areas where where candidates previously did not go in many ways i did that myself. >> rose: you mean like wisconsin. >> yeah, like wisconsin, i'm not sure how you run a campaign for president without going to wisconsin or to maine. he was out there, rallying people. that is what a serious candidate has got to do. that is what democrats, you know, how many democrats. >> rose: that is what she didn't do because she was on the phone raising money, that is the point you are raising. >> well, she was not on the phone, she was at hundreds and hundreds of fundraisers. but it's not just her. i mean if i were to tell you

gee, here say press release, senator so forth and so on leading democrat is going to mississippi, to speak to the working people in one of the poorest staters in this country, would you say whoa, never saw that before in my life, can you think of any, i know that because i went to mississippi and people said gee, we never saw a nonrepublican coming to mississippi to talk to white and black workers. what a shock that would be. for the democrats, to have a 50 state stat gee where they went to wyoming, to kansas, and they talked to people other than going for fundraisers. we need a revolution within the democratic party. we need to transform it we need to make it a working class party, a grass roots party. >> rose: you wrote an op ed in the new york times that essentially make this point. >> yeah. >> rose: you need a revolution because the policy proposals coming from you, from her, from other democrats are one thing. it seems to me you are saying you have to show people who are hurting, for all the reasons you laid out on this table, that you hear them.

that you're listening. that you recognize that they are up against insurmountable odds. >> yeah, right. that's right. let's put it out on the table. re eight years ago beforen we ama became president? the answer is you have to be a partisan not to recognize that we were. you remember. massive unemployment, world's financial system on the verge of collapse. yes, we're better off but there is another reality and you just touched on it. and media has no clue about it. no clue about it it all. and that is people are working two or three jobs. people are scared to death, not only about what happens o them when they retire, they're worried about their kids am you have college graduates who are waiting tables, or driving cabs. they're saying hey, i went to school, i'm $50,000 in debt. is that all that this country can offer. >> rose: but i think that there is this reality too, that when people were talking about mounting a campaign, i remember when before secretary clinton announced, i mean everybody has understood in their head, you know, that we have a real problem here with what is

happening to the middle class. that was not i a new idea. that idea was there. the difference was i'm asking, not saying, the point i would raised earlier. they simply weren't communicating that, that they understood it, they understood it it legally but. >> charlie, under-- understanding. >> rose: that is my point. >> i can write a speech saying we're going to fight for every day americans. does that mean that i really-- . >> rose: you knew that is where the votes were. >> that's rhetoric. but what does that mean? what does, for example, all right, the american people are asking themselves, and i say this in new york city where we are recording this, how does it happen that every major financial institution in this country has paid billions of dollars in fines for eu8 legal activity, no c.e.o. has been prosecutedded. people are saying this is a corruption-- corrupt system. how does it it happen that billionaires to able to buy elections and spend hundreds of millions of dollars.

>> rose: when you say that, let me ask this question. you just said, with eight years of a democratic administration. >> right. >> rose: a democrat was appointed to be the leader of the justice department. >> yup. >> rose: well. >> you can answer the question as well as i can. that's the point. so i think what people say is we are better off today under obama than we certainly were at the end of bush's campaign. thank you president obama for doing a lot of good things. but i think there is still a whole lot of things where this obama administration has not been as strong as it should be. and you have mr. trump coming along and saying hey, you are hurting, your factories are going abroad. >> rose: will a president trump be able to dismantd el a president obama's legacy? >> i'm not worried about the legacy. i'm worried about the realities in terms of how-- . >> rose: health care. >> how it impacts millions of

people. now what trump has said, and in fairness to him, this is not an original idea with him. this is what republicans believe. look, the republican party is largely funded by the koch brothers and a few other billionaires, do you know what the koch brothers believe, you should have them up here, i don't know if you have. >> rose: they believe in reforming criminal justice. >> i will tell you what else they believe. they don't want to cut social security and medicare and medicaid, they want to eliminate those programs. they want to eliminate public education in america. this is an extreme right wing group that spends moneys of will-- hundreds of millions of dollar to elect republicans and they now have an enormous influence over the republican party. >> rose: but they weren't supportive of donald trump. >> oh, i think they will be just fine with mr. trump. you're right, they put most of their money into senate and house races. >> rose: right. >> but they will be very happy i think with what mr. trump does. >> rose: but here is also this idea that is going on, that is

getting some prom thens. that the elite, they took him literally but not seriously. and the people who supported him took him seriously but not literally. meaning they gave him a pass on some of these things he said to be disruptive, because they believed in the end he really would change. >> this is what i know. and who knows. mr. trump, we have to say this, ran the most unconventional campaign in modern history of america. we know that he is a very smart guy. we know that he has done some very ugly things in the past, in terms of race and this birther movement, terrible things said about mexican americans, about women and really terrible beyond belief. what he does as a president, we will have to wait and see. on the other hand, he has raised some issues about the decline of the middle class. about wall street, about the pharmaceutical industry. so i, all can i say, charlie, i'm not here to predict what mr. trump will do. although he makes me obviously

very, very nervous. the way i look at it is if he is going to go forward in this appointment of mr. bannon, is a very bad sign. if he is going to go forward and thinks will throw millions of latinos out of this country, if he thinks he's going to be a racist or a sexist, we in the progressive movement are going to fight him tooth and nail. >> rose: can you stop him? >> i think we can. >> rose: on those issues that you talk about. >> you know what. >> rose: the deportation of several million immigrants who he says are those immigrants who have a criminal record. >> i don't know what that means. what is that, they jay walk? they got fined for speeding on-- the interstate. i don't know what that means. but i think yes, you are going to find, look, and this i believe so passionately. i don't have to tell it you, you know it it as well as i do. that this country, for hundreds of years, there have been people fighting against how we treated native americans. how we treated african-americans

6789 how we treated women, how we treated asian americans. the asian exclusion act. how we discriminated against italians and the irish and jews and everybody else. we have been fighting over and over and over again to reach what martin luther king jury reminded us that we should judge people based on their character, not by the color of their skin or where they came from. that is the vision that we have. and there are millions of people, not just minorities but whites as well. saying we are not going back. mr. trump, you and your friends are not going to divide this country up. i hope, i think he is a smart guy. he is a strange man but he is a very smart man. i hope that he understands that if he tries to divide us up by race or country of origin, there will be a massive backlash. second of all, which concerns me very much. media didn't talk about it much during the campaign. trump campaigned by saying that he thought climate change was a hoax. i'm a member of the environmental committee. let me tell you what i'm sure we

already know. climate change is no hoax it is a great threat to this planet. we have to transform our energy system and move away from toes ill fuel. that speaks to the future, not only of this country, the whole world. here is what i worry about, charlie. if the rest of the world, russia, india, china, germany, they see that the united states has given up, dun even believe the reality of climate change, they will say why the hell are we transforming our system, we have a i have seven grand children f that happens, i worry very much. i hope that mr. trump has the brains to listen to the scientific community and not his right wing-- . >> rose: do you have any indication advice on what he said, the interview he did with lesley stahl who is coming up on this program, that may be an indication that he is thinking seriously that show the awesome power at the white house has a sobering effect. >> let's hope. let me say it again. i think that done all trump in his own way, you know, is certainly an unusual type of politician. i think he is a spart guy. and in many ways you have to say

that he ran a brilliant campaign. he won, no one thought cowin. >> you agree with those who say we owe it to him to give him a chance. >> i'm not going to give him a chance regarding racism or bigotry or sexism, i won't give him any chance or not. >> rose: the question is do you wait and see what he will do, and in in fact he realizes your first fear then. >> i don't think majority of-- let's be clear. we have racists and sexists in this country. everybody knows that. i think they are a minority. and i think there are a lot of people who voted for trump who really dislike a lot of what he said. but felt that maybe he could do something to improve their economic condition. >> rose: because nobody had done anything before. >> because they're hurting. >> rose: they're hurting. >> yeah. >> rose: how split is the democratic party? you are talking about the revolution. you wrote about the notion of the democratic party has got to change. >> yeah. i wrote about it in the book. i speak about it every day.

i wouldn't use the word-- it it is split. but let's look at it another way. today the republican party will soon control the white house, control the senate, control the house, control two thirds of the state houses in this country. the last eight years democratic party has lost some 8 or 900 seats in state legislatures around the country. >> rose: and that's-- why? >> all right, so any objective analysis says whatever the hell the democrats are doing ain't working very well, right? that we can agree on. that's number one. number two, why. i think it speaks, that-- and i done mean in in ray condemn that tore way, the democratic party has become a party of the liberal elite. people who, as i am, are going to fight for women's rights, fight for gay rights, fight the minority rights. i believe all that, probably 100 percent voting record on all of those issues but when are you sitting at a cocktail party

raising money from people who are going to contribute $30,000 a piece to your pac, are those people staying up nights worrying about that worker in wisconsin or michigan who saw his job go to china? no, so i think what you need to do is change the focus and say to those wealthy people, hey, we need your help. but you know what, you are the minority. you are the one percent, you are the two percent w we have to start reaching out to the 88, 89%, those people are really hurting. >> rose: that is what the book is about, our revolution, bern c.e.o. sanders, his campaign was called a future to believe in. thank you for coming. >> thank you very much. >> rose: back in a moment. stay with us. lesley stahl is here. she has been a correspondent on "60 minutes" for 25 years. she is a long time colleague and friend. on friday she sat down with president-elect donald trump for his first television interview since his stunning victory over hillary clinton last tuesday. they discussed his plans to

fulfill his campaign promise to make america great again. >> when i look at the world and you look at how various places are taking advantage of our country, and i say it and i say it very proudly, it's going to be america first. >> rose: i'm pleased to welcome lesley stahl back to this table. there he is making a point, it is going to be america first. >> that's what he ran on. and he's kind of walking a tight rope, obviously. he wants to be true to what he said. but he's adjusting. as if a lot of what he said was the beginning of a negotiation. here's my opening bid. come back at me. >> rose: one of his friends said that to me at the republican convention. >> he already figured it out. >> rose: he knew, he said don't pay attention, what he says is his opening bid. he used that very phrase. >> hi that impression. >> rose: yeah. >> on a whole raft of issues. but some he is still pretty firm about, you know. >> rose: abortion. >> abortion. he didn't give any kind of

indication of a shift on that. >> rose: what is interesting too is that he may have a chance to appoint a number of judges. so we've got two liberal judges who are over 80. >> and he can appoint someone to replace anthony kennedy as that swing voter. >> rose: right. >> and maybe move that one over to the right. >> rose: and the garland, scalia, garland is not going to be appointed by donald trump. >> clearly. >> rose: that is three or four right there. that could change the court in four years. >> this was obviously a huge issue in the campaign for both sides. so it sntd as if the country didn't understand. >> rose: so tell me about how the interview came about. because you interviewed him during the campaign. >> i did. i interviewed him when he named pence. that very day. >> rose: and had the two of them together. >> yes. and he told us then that he would give us the first interview as president-elect. >> rose: he likes big numbers. >> he loves big numbers. and we had giant numbers. we had giant numbers. >> rose: so what surprised you

from the moment you walked in the room? because you hadn't talked to him before. >> no, no, no. >> rose: there was no sense of this is what we want to do we want to sit down with you and find out what kind of president you want to be. >> there were zero restrictions. >> rose: right. >> no discussion of what areas we would be going into. >> rose: but you don't expect that to happen. >> no, but sometimes, you know, sometimes someone will call and say what are your areas. i'm sure you have that a lot. >> rose: of course. >> there was none of that. just walked in. he had no idea what kind of an interview, what the issues were going to be. people were asking me, well wa, was his demeanor. everybody saw the same thing i saw which was a man who was having the weight, the enormity of what he is getting into hitting him as you were watching him. >> rose: finger on the nuclear. >> and everything else. you know. all these issues. filling the government with 4,000 people. it's overwhelming.

>> rose: was he surprised by it? because no person can really understand it it until you have been given this responsibility. >> i think it it was kind of a cold shower when he went in with obama who obviously laid out some of the deficit-- how things come at a president, 50 things at once. you're dodging different domestic issues, maybe there is a personal issue with someone on your staff, there is foreign, there is economic, there is-- and it's coming at a president constantly. every day, 24-- basically 24/7. >> rose: do you think that, i mean he actually said to you look, have i done some big things in my life. but this is line. >> he said his business now was peanuts, compared to this. and he is right. he has these-- he is the leader of the free world. it is an enormous responsibility and there's no question he is feeling it. no question. >> rose: and clearly wants to find the best people he can find for his government. >> well, obviously. i think he's doing a balancing

act when he has mr. bannon and reince priebus together because they represent two different ideologies. >> rose: one is a party, establishment, the other is anti-establishment, at right. >> i remember when reagan was president and appointed his toy ka of jim baker, moderate republican, ed meese, very, very conservative republican and mike deefer who took care of the image. and the three of them had equal weight and they worked wonderfully together. and it is a model that reagan liked and i heard that this is something that mr. trump likes in his organization. he likes people who don't agree with each other, under him. and he doesn't mind if they scwawb tell out and maybe the best decision will bubble up to him. >> rose: he comes into this presidency having said some very controversial things and you asked him about most of them. here at immigration.

>> so let's go through very quickly. some of the promises you made and tell us if you are going to do what you said or change it it in anyway? are you really going to build a wall? >> yes. >> rose: they're talking about a fence in the republican congressment would you accept a fence? >> for certain areas i would. but certain areas a wall is more appropriate. i'm very good at this, it's called construction. >> rose: so part wall, part fence. >> could be some fencing. >> rose: what about the pledge to deport millions and millions of undocumented immigrants. >> what we are going to do is get the people that are criminal and have criminal records, gang members, drug dealers. we have a lot of these people, probably two million, could even be three million, we're getting them out of our country or going to incarcerate. but we're getting them out of our country here illegally. after the border is secured and after everything gets normalized we'll make a determination on the people that you are talking about, who are terrific people,

they're terrific people but we're going to make a determination. but before we make that determination, lesley, it's very important, we want to secure our border. >> rose: people don't realize that mr. obama expelled almost two million, if not two million. so people don't remember that and i don't know if there are two million criminals. i don't know if there is even a small percentage. >> talk about the family though. this is a guy who talked about his family all along. and we know that his sons and his daughters have been surrogates for him on the campaign trail and that he's very close to he ivanka trump. >> i got the impression and i had it before that this is who he trusts. this is it it. >> rose: blood is thicketter than. >> well, but he raised them, not to sit back and just enjoy the money. he raised them to work, and to be responsible. and to have families and raise

them, and i think he just simply-- he relies on them but he also really trusts them and their judgement. and they're not going to be in washington. >> rose: how about his son in law. >> about washington? >> rose: jared. >> jared. >> rose: who played a rather prominent role in the campaign, it it is said. >> and still in the transition. i got the impression that he will not be in the administration but i also had the impression that he's going to be in touch with his family. he's not going to not continue to trust them. >> rose: trump will be-- the president will be in touch with his family who will be running his business if they allow that to stand. >> what he said to us is that there is no ethical or legal restrictions against him having his family run the business. so there is no legally there is in one is forszk him to it do that. >> rose: people don't understand how difficult it it is to do what you did.

because there are a lot of things you could say. you had an open-ended conversation you would get to every one of them. but you have to make sure you're balanced and you don't know if they interest going to say something unexpected which will eat up your time as well. >> especially when he was adjusting from what he had said on the campaign trail. so i knew, for example, on the deportations. i knew we had something different. so i had to move on because i knew that was established. and if he stuck with what he said, i have pushed a little, for example, on the abortion on roe v. wade. >> rose: which he says, he said he's against it he wants to see roe v. wade. >> he didn't really say that. he kept saying i'm prochoice, i'm prolife, he said that several times. and i'm going to appoint a prolife judge. so he never really said i want to overturn but it it was implicit. >> rose: didn't he say he would like to see it returned to the states and you ask him what happens to people who live in

those states. >> if it's overturned, it would go back to the states. and i said so women won't be able to get abortions. and he said well, they can go to another state, to the states will make the decisions. >> rose: you did talk about the moment, which is protest outside trump tower. and in other cities around the world am how did he responds to that? >> well, i also asked him a lot about the racial threats that are happening now, hate talk going on and social media. you know, he blames the press for so much. he says that the press whipped up the protestors. >> rose: and that there were professional protestors. >> and that there were professional protestors. but that the press is responsible for creating a false impression of him. and really charlie, all the way through, he was not bitter to anybody. he said lovely things about the

president, about hillary, about bill krin ton. >> rose: what did he say-- clinton. >> fies person, very lovely on the phone. i don't want to hurt them. but-- . >> rose: but he withheld the decision as to whether he will seek to. >> barely. i thought it was hanging by the skimpiest of threads. >> rose: that he will in fact want to see her prosecutor. >> i think will in fact not want to. >> rose: because he doesn't need that. >> i don't want to hurt them, he said. i don't want to hurt them. but the bitterness that remains is towards the mainstream media. and it's intense. >> rose: how will that play itself out, do you think? >> i fear for the mainstream media, of which i am a part and you too. i, he explicitly says that he used social media and was able to reach people in the way people want to be communicated with toyed.

and it is why he won. and he didn't have to spend nearly the amount of money that hillary clinton did by focusing so much on television. and boy, it's hard to argue. >> rose: he takes pride in the fact he has like 30 million followers. >> right. and he picked up-- . >> rose: on twitter, facebook, instagram. >> he picked 100,000 just this morning kind of thing. he's not wrong by the way. >> rose: about the power of social media and how powerful it was in this campaign. >> there is the way we are going to be communicating. >> this is him talking about the protest. here st. >> when they demonstrate against you and there are signs out there, i mean don't you say to yourself, i guess you don't, you know, do i have to worry about this, do i have to go out and assuage them? do i have to tell them not to be afraid. they're afraid. >> i would tell them don't be afraid, absolutely. >> that's not what you are saying. >> no, no, i think, i'm saying it, have i been saying it. don't be afraid.

we are going to bring our country back. but certainly don't be afraid. you know, we just had an election. and sort of like you have to be given a little time. people are protesting, if hillary had won, and if my people went out and protested everybody would say that's a terrible thing. and it would have been a much different attitude. there is a different attitude. there is a double standard here. >> rose: so without do you think he owe thses election to in his own mind. >> himself. i do think-- . >> rose: he was an independent operator more than any candidate we have ever seen. >> he stuck to his guns. he campaigned the way he wanted to. the way he wanted to was to keep the connection building with the crowds he-- going with the crowds goa got. and he didn't listen to people telling him to read the tel prompter and tone it down.

and we have to give him a lot of credit. we have to kind of agree with him on this. >> rose: any sense of who he might appoint including our own here in new york, rudy giuliani? >> i have a feeling that the administration will be half establishment, and half seriously conservative or at right or-- alt right or whatever the word is. and he is going to try to keep that balance going. just when you think oh pie goodness, everyone is coming from one side is he going to surprise-- . >> rose: should the country worry that he is giving power and credential to the alt right, that there will be people who reflect some worst instincts in america. >> i did ask him about the racial epithets that you are beginning to hear and about the effect on school children, things like that. and he basically told me, it is an exaggeration. it's not happening that much, and the press is blowing it it

up. >> rose: another point he said, i will look to the camera and tell them stop. >> yes. >> rose: where do you rank this in terms of the kinds of conversations you have had that you enjoyed coming at this pivotal political year. >> way up there. i do. because he answered every question. and he-- he answered them in full. it wasn't a canned, prepared, rehearsed talking point kind of intervy at all. and you could see him thinking. and i really appreciated it as the mainstream reporter that he dislikes so much. and i think he really wanted to be reassuring to the american people. >> rose: he really understood this was a moment with this kind of audience. >> i do. i think he was deliberately serious, deliberatedly somber, almost. compared to the way he had been before. and thoughtful. and i am-- he's very smart in

the way he both sticks to his guns, and signals i'm going to make some changes. you know, there is a balance there. and he's trying to find the right balance but he's letting us know that there will be both. and it's a high wire act for him. >> rose: well done, thank you for coming. >> my pleasure. >> rose: lesley stahl from "60 minutes." back in a moment. stay with us. >> for more on president-elect trump we turn to the "washington post" bob costa. he is a national political reporter and has been covering the trump campaign from the beginning. so what do you make of the demeanor of donald trump that you saw on "60 minutes"? >> i think lesley stahl nailed it in her conversation with you. this is a trump responding to the moment, also adjusting to the moment. it's not that he didn't expect to win, it's the gravity of the presidency, people close to him tell me it is finally settling on his shoulders, especially

after that meeting with president obama. >> rose: how did that go in term its of how trump felt about the significance of it? >> trump felt enthused coming out of that meeting, based on how it went much longer than he would have thought with the president, going for 90 minutes. but the scope of running the federal government is something he hasn't really waded into for months. he has thought about the presidency in broad stroke, not in the kind of granular detail. it was in the a confrontational meeting in terms of temperment with the people but confrontational in terms of sets of the affordable caret act, and different regulations that the president has put in, how is trump going to deal with them. obama didn't ask for them to stay necessarily but he made a case for what he has done during his two term its. >> rose: and they talked about foreign policy, clearly. >> they did. and that is the big question mark hovering over the president-elect. how is he going to handle foreign policy, national security, bob woodward and my colleague has a story in the post about this.

he is now going to be facing deep secrets, a national security apparatus that is beyonds what trump has really deltd with as a presidential candidate. when you look at domestic policy, trump is pretty ready. he has a populist national agenda, some what conservative not a hawk but right now esisn turning to a lot of dimp people as he tries to navigate the scene. >> rose: during the campaign, a lot of people from the national security establishment chose not to support him. didn't necessarily support hillary clinton but chose not to support him publicly. >> that's correct. one of the names you see on top of some of these lists of possible cabinet posts is the former u.n. ambassador, more hawkish, coming out of the george w. bush white house, trump knows him from coming out in washington. if you are a television general or analyst who on national security and foreign policy, you certainly are part of the conversation right now at trump tower but the trump allies tell me and his friends, the most

important thing that happened to trump over the last week are considerations with former president george w. bush, george h-w bush, mitt romney, to hear from some people who fought through foreign policy within his own party and try to guide him through, maybe recommend some names. >> rose: general flynn clearly is high up in terms of people who were close to him during the campaign. some suggest he might be the national security advisor. >> i think is he at the top of the list for that position in the white house, the executive branch. -- seen warily by others because he has a compattive personality, he clashed with many people when he was in the obama administration, but he has been at trump's side during the intelligence briefings. he has been at trump's side during the campaign. if you are not really close to flin right now in these behind the scenes talks it is hard to see how you have a top post in this nsa organization that trump is putting together. >> rose: has the future of chris christie, the governor of new jersey, the first person to sort of endorse him after the

primary, after is he z dropped out has it it de-- descended. >> it it it diminished. the new jersey governor was supposed to be a top player. there has been a coup in the trump transition t has gone unreported. we are trying to flush it out. what you are seeing is all the christie people forming this transition and i weighting for trump have been elbowed out in a sense by jeff sessions, the a alabama senator and his allies like rick deer born, staffer steven miller who is trump's top domestic policy advisor. the establishment republicans built in the transition are being replaced with the more populist conservatives in the sessions orbit that is an important change to watch. >> rose: sessions mate want a cabinet level job himself. >> if anyone it is going to be rudy geulianee, the former new york mayor and sessions who have been at trump's side from the very beginning and are seen as true kf dantes of the president-elect. they seem to have really any cabinet post they would like at their finger tips.

of course there are a lot of discussions about what would be the best fit. those two certainly are well seen at trump tower. >> what are the implications of the job that steve bannon has? >> it is the job at the white house. reince priebus will be the chief of staff, bannon is billed in the press release and in conversations in my reporting as an equal partner. bannon is the chief strategist in the senior counselor, a wordy title. but he is someone who is the heart and soul of the president lech's campaign and perhaps his presidency. priebus is someone who can connect trump with capitol hill, has strong relationship with the house speaker, paul ryan, knows mitch mcconel, the senate leader, has a real feel for the party. but it's bannon who brought niejel, the leader from the u.k. and brexit over to meet with trump at trump tower. it is bannon who sees trump as a global populist figure, someone who can change the way not only american democracy and government work but america's role in the world, as being more populist and national sis, not

along the usual right left spectrum. >> rose: what does that mean more populist and nationalist in terms of specific international policy. >> i think you have to pay close attention to trade. you don't see congressional leaders at the moment inching to do anything on trade. what bannon and trump will do from the outset based on my reporting is really renegotiate trade deals around the world, dealing directly with different countries from the executive branch that is going to be the first populist mark and the other thing, charlie, that has already been planned on the populist level sim graition. jeff sessions and steve bannon are two of the bpggest advocates in this country not only for stopping illegal imgraitionz but for limiting legal immigration. and that is another part of the trump agenda. >> rose: limiting legal immigration. >> yes. >> rose: so the statue of liberty will have less meaning in a trump administration? >> right, well, my point is, if you have study jeff sessions and steve bannon's careers, they have been part of this world on

the american right that has gotten little attention but is almost consumed with the idea of limiting legal immigration levels in the united states. that has been a priority for them and you can expect it it to be a priority next year. >> rose: and it was a priority in the campaign, you see that influence am but help us understand what else might be part of that in terms of those people and what they want to see donald trump do. >> i think with bannon, pay attention to the disruption he brings in the confrontations with the media, with foreign leaders and with even republicans in congress. bannon having covered him for eight or nine years and knowing him, he is someone who is a master at political theater. and he is in a way brought down a house speaker in john boehner through his website breitbart, he put immense pressure on the house leadership. he brought down a house speaker and is also now in a sense elected a president of the united states. so you can't take him lightly. he helped trump plot the trip to mexico to meet with a foreign

leader. is he someone who had the idea of putting all the accusers of bill clinton in a room before a debate. he is a political theater strategist, someone who knows that if he can find a way for trump to consume the conversation, that also is power in his view. >> rose: there are those who were close to trump who i have heard say that in fact the-- the idea of being disruptive was a clear campaign strategy by donald trump and steve bannon and others, that was essential to victory, they believe. >> yes. it it is essential to how trump thinks about politics. the way trump thinks based on my conversations with him and knowing bannon and reporting on him is if they can disrupt on social media and have everyone in the press and the political class talking about tweets and different personality battles, then they think the political class is distracted and not focused as much on what is happening on policy, what is being implemented on immigration, on the economy, on corporate taxes. so they don't want all the attention on certain policies.

they want some attention on that. but this is, trump sees chaos as a way to faf gate power as an outsider, rather than just chaos, that is a bad thing. >> rose: do you expect to see a huge sort of battle between the trump presidency, and the national med gentleman? >> it is already shaping up, for example, the conversation now, the stories about the trump administration are pretty gattive on all sides. the kellyanne conway the campaign manager was speaking to reporters on monday at trump tower and said the coverage has been abysmal, she doesn't like it. about steve bannon because bannon as the head of breitbart published many controversial headlines, things that have really alarmed anti-semitic watch groups, racial watch groups. so he is a controversial figure to be sure. and that is kind of starting the tone of the administration. and these t it is a lot like jimmy carter in 76y and bill clinton in 1992 in this sense.

they are outsiders that don't have many relationships in this town. >> rose: you have been a great guide for us in terms of understanding this presidential campaign. i thank you and look forward to talking to you soon. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: bob costa from "the washington post." thank you for joining us. see you next time. >> for more about there program and earlier episodes visit us online at pbs.org and charlie rose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

>> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide.

was produced in high definition. ♪ every single bite needed to be -- [ laughter ] >> twinkies in there. >> wow. >> it's like a great big hug. >> it's about as spicy as i can handle. put chili powder in my baby foot. >> it's all over the table and a lot of