>> rose: welcome to the program. tonight a conversation with mikhail khodorkovsky. >> my opinion is that putin has already worked out that model that he would like to use with donald trump. he worked it out on berlstoni. he's going to look for some kind of personal understanding, personal relations along the lines of like here we are you and i way on top altogether just the two of us and everybody else is somewhere there below us. i'm not sure whether the american political system could

handle this kind of scale of relations. >> rose: mikhail khodorkovsky for the hour next. >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by the following: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: mikhail khodorkovsky is here. he was once russia's richest man, ahead of yukos's oil company. he was a political promise nerve until president putin unexpectedly heartedded him in 2013. he served ten years in prison.

he lives in exile in london and leads his foundation called open russia. laying ground work for democratic governance and human rights in russia. van fair rights that khodorkovsky is the most influential russian to ask critical questions about a post putin russia. i am please to do have him back on this program. welcome. >> thank you. >> rose: what brings you to new york? >> i have my son's family living here. i have two grand daughters so i came to visit them. we'll spend thanksgiving together. >> rose: very well. happy thanksgiving. tell me what you have been doing since you were on this program last time. >> well as i have planned to do, i have launched the work of the open russia foundation, which

just recently we turned into a movement in helsinki, a sociopolitical movement. we are informing russian society about what the kremlin would not like to inform the russian society. we engage in helping young russian politicians to participate in the elections to the state duma and will continue to help them to get elected into regional parliament or at least participate in the pre election show that is called elections in russia. we're also working in a number of other directions. i think that our activity in russia is noticeable. >> rose: this ha way? was you're having an i pack on the ground in getting people who

agree with you elected? >> well have been elected in russia today without administration's approval is impossible. the president's administration very obviously is not going to give us such approval. but we can help and we do help young politicians at least present themselves to society, introduce themes to present an alternative russian society. you see what the main problem in russia is that people, they don't really want putin to be president forever but he has cleaned out the political field so much that society doesn't see an alternative. and ever's afraid. what will happen when putin goes. so the task we have set ourselves to show society that there is an alternative to putin and that there's nothing horrible will happen when he goes. on the contrary, it will give the country a new and positive

impulse. >> rose: that's an interesting way of putting it. you're building for a post putin time. does that mean that you believe putin can be president of russia as long as he wants to? >> that's that's what it looks like. i don't think in reality it will be so. i think that if he doesn't leave by 2024, after that this will take place with greater proposes for russia and for him personally. but for now at any rate, that's what i looks like, that he might just stay there heading the russia as long as he wants. we're telling people that's not so. that between 2018 and 2024, we await some serious changes in russia and we need to be prepared for that. we need to know what to do and we need to see those people who are going to be doing it.

>> rose: would you like to be president of russia? now that's a question i can tell you without a very absolutely no. >> rose: why not? >> the post of russian president especially in the crises in which the current regime is going to leave russia is not the sweetest spot in the world to be in. i would be happy if some young politician could be found who could really want to take this post. at any rate, we're helping such politicians to show themselves. i see my task somewhat differently. i see that at the moment, when today's regime falls apart and it certainly is going to fall apart at some point, there will be a huge problem. we can't have election

immediately in order to immediately elect a new honest, honestly elected power in the country. what today's regime has done doesn't allow that to happen after immediate elections. they've adopted such laws. they've set such people in the electoral commissions that it's impossible to conduct an honest election. there will have to be a transition period during which political refor will need to take place and these honest elections to be prepared for. we ticket will take about 24 months to get this done. this work is something myself and my team could take upon ourselves or at least participate in getting it done. >> rose: can you go back to russia? >> under today's regime, i can return to russia only in order to immediately go to jail. after this regime leaves there's

no tout i will be able to return and i will return. >> rose: they made it clear to you if you come back you go to jail. >> well, of course. at first they said this softly and then a few more times said it even more harshly. >> rose: how did they say it? >> first, the supreme court of the russian federation for the first time in history refused to abide by a judgment of the european court of human rights that had ruled that my verdict should be reviewed. subsequently, they opened a new criminal case against me and even requested interpol,inter pole obviously refused them. today there are dozens of people in the country who are being

searched, being brought in for interrogation. they are being intimidated specifically because of their association with me and the work that i do. >> rose: did you believe the russian regime is a criminal regime? >> i would say that the technology that they use, this attempts to buy people who don't agree with them. if you can't buy them, then interim -- intimidate them. a creation of a hierarchy through letting everybody give permission to steal on his turf. that really does sound like a criminal model of behavior. and when we work with this regime, we need to understand that this is how they see

things. for example, they can't realize that when a person is trying to make a concession to them, it's not because he's afraid of them, but because he's trying to find a common language with them, a common solution. any attempt to meet them halfway they view as a weakness and a signal of the fact that you can and should keep on pressing. >> rose: so this is a recommendation you would have for president elect trump that he should push forward in terms of negotiating with them but do it with the expectation that he cannot allow them to believe he is weak. >> i think that presidents trump as a person who spent a large part of his life in business understands such a style that some counterparties in business sometimes have. but there's another point i want

to make here. when we're working in business, we understand that our agreements with our counterparty are supported by a legal system. which both i and my counterparty adhere to. if we have agreed on something and signed it, we're going stood it. president elect trump in his country in america also understands that he can't just do whatever he wants because he's got a congress, he's got a supreme court, the senate and public pip. that stand against him. now he's going to be talk is with a person who is completely free from any institutional support and institutional checks and balances. he can sign an agreement with you today and tomorrow he'll violate it. and there's nobody in the

country and nothing in the country that will prevent him from doing that. this is a specific feature that needs to be take even into account and that's why i say that strategic agreements with vladimir putin are hardly likely. >> rose: even though we have nuclear agreements with him? with russia. >> i very much hope that nuclear arms is not a subject that's going to be put on the table immediately. that's after all something that is best to not even think about. but if we go beyond the bounds of mutual nuclear deterrence, all other agreements need to be based on some kind of common values. there are no such common values. >> rose: what we call rule of law.

>> absolutely. and then we get a very serious problem after this. when the president of the united states says something, even though he's a very influential person in the american political system, he does know that there are some things some lines he cannot cross. president putin does not understand that and doesn't realize this. >> rose: so there is no restraint on his power in russia? >> absolutely so. and he projects this on to his counterparty at the negotiating table. if those say to them well i do have constraints, there's something i can't do. he thinks they're trying to deceive him. >> rose: what does he want from the united states. what does he want from the new government of the united states?

>> putin's global task if he sees it, is to ensure that his regime is not replaced. that's his global task. but because in his head, the whole world stands against him. and he projects this point of view on to all of russian society. he needs to be shown an enemy. an enemy will always be such a convenient enemy because it's powerful. but far away. that is, you can call him an enemy without having to worry about it. and he needs little victories, like he's got in syria for example or ukraine. so putin right now is going to try to get from the new american administration and a consolidation, if you will, of

the acknowledgment of his victory, the annexation of crimea, what's going on in eastern ukraine, what's going on in syria. he needs for the new administration to say all right, vladimir this is your victory. we're going to establish the new worm order together with you. i'm not sure if the new administration in the u.s. is ready for such a thing. >> rose: we don't know yet. clearly the new administration doesn't even have its team together. but that is one of the questions, an important question that came out of the campaign. what will be the relationship if donald trump wins between a president trump and a president putin. what kind of relationship, what kind of understandings might they have about the world order? >> my opinion is that putin has

already worked out that model that he would like to use with donald trump. he worked it out on berstoni. he's going to look for some kind of personal understanding, personal relations along the lines of like here we are you and i way up on top altogether just the two of us and everybody else is somewhere there below us. i'm not sure whether the american political sysem could handle this kind of style of relations. >> rose: in syria, what does he want? does he want to have his person

bashir assad stay in power so that he gets what? >> well, as i already explained to you, in my opinion putin, his task number one is to keep his regime unchanged. because this is done using methods that aren't very welcomed in developed democratic countries . he needs to create various points where things, that he can change. that is, if you do this for me, if you allow me to do what i want in russia's orbit, then i can give you a concession here. so what he wants to do is first create problems and then make it so that these problems can be resolved only with him. syria is one of these problems that has been created

specifically so that it can then be exchanged for something. that's his line of behavior. and it hasn't been unsuccessful i have to say. etcetera another matter that as was the case in ukraine, you need to pay for this with the lives of our soldiers. but human lives are not nearly as valuable to them as they might be to others. >> rose: and he views syria and ukraine as a bargaining chip to mainton the stability and the survival of his regime in moscow. >> i would say ukraine might have a value in and of itself on top of that. >> rose: as a border. >> yes. it's the near, it's a near neighbor and you would like to have a government in kiev but

these are nothing more than bargaining chips. >> rose: how weak is the russian economy? >> the russian economy, and i'm very sad to say this, is deteriorating. it is gradually losing its competitiveness. we can see this easily from how modern day products are becoming a smaller and smaller part of the whole manufacturing base. i think that we're at the next circle already. even education is getting were because for the kind of industry that you've got in russia today you don't need the kind of education that we used to v nobody needs that science. so degeneration is taking place

and this is a process that has gone quite a way already. does this mean that as a result of these economic problems, the regime will collapse? no. that does not mean that. a deterior ocean of the economy in and of itself is not going to drag down the foundations of the regime. >> rose: no matter how low the price of oil is, they can withstand economic pressure and designing price of oil which is not declining by the way. you know much more about that than i do. >> you probably again unfortunately had this experience with iran. when the standard of living

deterioration is compensated for by propaganda about enemies outside of russia are attacking and doing nasty thing to our economy. putin is using this iran experience the whole nine yards. >> rose: in term of europe, what are the objectives in europe? >> i think that the main goal again is the same one i mentioned before but the methods that he wants to achieve this is by destroying a united europe. for putin, it's much more effective and promising to work with individual national governments than with a united europe that naturally has opportunities in this case to

stand for its common values and common interests much better. what he's doing now is these breaks, he's provoking these break, these cracks. we know that putin right now is both idea lodgely and financially supporting erratic movements left and right. that's important to him is that society in europe be polarized and as a result of this for europe to start breaking apart. unfortunately, he is also not without successes in this area. there is a general trend of movement away from globalizational processes, but he's putting himself into it

very successfully. >> rose: and you do see people, certain leaders announcing kind of respect for putin and announcing a kind of willingness to do business with him so to speak. >> yes, yes. putin is very effective. he has shown that the pressure of political corruption has not been taken off the table at all in european democratic countries the. in many of the democratic countries of europe. in some cases that is not direct corruption it's intermediate created in other cases it's pressure through propaganda tools which unfortunately in today's united europe the have not turned out to be, there's an alternative to them. but sometime it's straight ahead corruption. which unfortunately sometimes actually achieves its goals.

>> rose: he just fired one of his principals in moscow for corruption. what was that about? >> well, as you know, in russia there's a saying that the person who yells stop they the loud i was is -- stop the thief the loudest is probably the thief. that's not the only thing here. in russia it does resonate with society and the opposition obviously tries to raise this agenda and putin naturally wants to co-opt it to himself.

plus now he has to conduct a purge, a cleansing of his circle. and for this purging, the corruption theme gives it a nice noble facade to this clean up. although of course you understand there isn't a single clean person in putin's circle. some are more corrupt, some are less corrupt, some act moreover deeply, some act less teamly but just about everybody is corrupt. i'm saying that maybe there is some one person hiding some place who is not corrupt. so i don't want to paint all of that. >> rose: does that include your fellow oligarchs that we are familiar with some of their names. are they by definition corrupted if they are continuing to do

business in russia and seemingly have a good relationship with putin? >> look, in 2003, we were at a crossroads. we could either have gone to an open economy without corruption or we could have followed and continued the same path. putin made the decision for the whole country. let me put it this way. it's hard for me to imagine how you can work in russia today without taking direct or indirect participation in the corruptional processes. the example of ulkiyo. they received money as they accused him. and now everybody's convinced of this and there's a lot of

writing about this in russia. a very large number of people got money, government employees, and people in the uniformed services. rofsneh shareholder is british petroleum. could representatives not know that in the central office of refsneh there are systemic bribes being given to members of the government, members of the cabinet, employees of much mone? >> well, when i used to be asked this question, i always used to

answer that i think personally he doesn't take money because why does he need money personally. yes. but the latest investigation with the radugan, if you may recall of these bahamian offshore companies have shown me even in 2012, until 2012, there was a direction in which money was being paid by people such as costin and other people from 9 inner circle, putin's inner circle. so i can't imagine that this kind of money box could be paid into for anybody other than putin. the payments were very interesting. out of hundred of millions of dollars, all the way down to $600,000 which is really kind of

interesting. it seems like this is the mechanism putin doesn't really want to stop or can't stop anymore. this is how it's done. in these criminal circles that you need to pay tribute to the bossman on top. part of what you gain you pay upwards. whether he needs it or not is another question. how much has accumulated there, i would say probably ten of billions but i would say no idea. >> rose: i'm going to leave putin with this one last question. in terms of your advice to the new president of the united states in dealing with him would be what? i'm asking you to repeat that but your advice to trump. what kind of relationship should he have with putin? what kind of deals should he be prepared to make? what warnings would you give him?

>> probably in his rather lengthy business career, he's had cases when he's had to do business with people whom he didn't trust one bit. and who for various reasons he knew would be able to not adhere to their obligations. everybody in big business has to deal with such people nevertheless at times. that's the experience he's got to think back on when he's dealing with president putin. and understand that one of the talents, i really do think this is a talent of president putin is the ability to have good relations with people, to gain their trust the he was taught

this back in the kgb still. and in this sense, i have to say they taught him well. you got to remember that. >> rose: you spent ten years in prison. you went from way up here to here. i would awesome that was not a pleasant experience for you. you and i talked about it. and we talked about what you had to have to be able to exist. what did you learn? if you knew that was what faced you, would you have conducted your self differently?

>> i would very much want to believe that if even had i known what awaited me, i would still have acted the same. although, i did not expect that it would be so long and so hard. i'm glad that right now at any rate i don't need to once again have to make a decision like i did. but if it is necessary, i will make that decision again. >> rose: you would. because it was who you were? >> yes, because that's me. and to be true to yourself is more important than the

conditions in which you find yourself. at least that's how i feel today and i hope that i would still have enough strength and courage for that if i did need to go through that again. >> rose: this is an assumption that you would have access to millions of dollars. certainly a lot less than you once had. but that you have access to all the money you need. there's efforts ongoing, legal efforts to get back money. where does that stand? >> the main part of the money that i have disposal to is free money. i use it for the work i do in russia. part of the money is still today frozen. these freezings took place when

i was in jail and right now my lawyers and i, we're continuing slowly to work at freeing this money. >> rose: this is places like ireland and elsewhere? >> yes, yes. we're working in an irish court right now. we've filed suit there to release this money and i'm hoping that, well maybe not as fast as i would like it to happen, but i'm hoping that it will be solved. >> rose: this is money that will go to you or yukos? >> this is just my money. the money that belonged to yukos are today under the management of yukos's management. and i am not, i'm neither a shareholder of yukos or a member of its current management. so i have nothing to do with that money at all.

this money does exist. i read about it in the press and i'm told about it by my friends that this money that yukos is money that still remained. this is other money that will be distributed amongst the shareholders. three no money has been frozen there the my knowledge. >> rose: russia issued an international arrest warrant last year charging you with the murder of a siberian murder in 1998 and attempted murder of a rival oil company in 1999. >> this was a rather high profile case in its time and it was investigated in 1999. the people were found who were guilty of this and it was determined who had put out the

contract for this murder. in 2003 when the case against yukos began, all of those decisions were repealed and the witnesses were forced to finger completely other people. so this has been going on since 2003. it's being used exactly in those moments when there's a need to put pressure on me or on my colleagues. i greatly regret to say this is not just idle talk but the last yukos person still in jail is sitting in jail on this case is the head of our security department. he's got a life sentence. he's been made an offer several times to finger his bosses to finger the company's bosses.

he has refused to do this, and has remained in life imprisonment. a year ago when i was already at liberty, i told him publicly i told him that i am, i call on him to give whatever testimony they want from him. that's just fine. let him say whatever they want him to say. i am confident that nobody's going to believe him anyway. if this givers him freedom, let him do that but he's refused again. and he remains with a life sentence and it's very difficult for me to talk with his mother, for example. >> rose: difficult. >> yes, it's all very difficult. >> rose: do you fear for yourself. >> of course there are risks. but compared to those risks that existed when i was in jail, when

just one finger motion would be enough to make me cease to exist. these are all risks that i am just not paying any attention to at all. i know that until today, putin does regard me as one of his most acute opponents. he doesn't have too many of them but i'm certainly seen as one of the most serious of them. the reason is understandable, putin believes that everything in this world takes place only for money and because i have money, obviously i am the most dangerous. if he gives the command to kill me, it will be difficult for me to survive that. he has many opportunities. but for now, this command doesn't exist and i'm hoping

that we'll never get to that point. >> rose: why do you think it doesn't exist? >> i would like to believe that my efforts and the efforts of people who think like i do are enough that if such a command does get issued that i would find out about it. >> rose: so somehow you would know somebody who would give you an early warning? you have friends. >> i want to believe that this is so. i to think that i would know, and this is what allows me to live peacefully now. maybe i am deluding myself but it's impossible to live if all you think about every day is am i going to get murdered today. at some poll you need to set that aside and keep living how you live.

to do what you feel is the right thing to do. but if at some ponent you're going to have to die, okay, none of us live forever anyway, right. >> rose: right. but you are saying you have to live in a sense that you are not in any way restraining yourself out of any fear of what may happen to me. you have basically made that decision, that what you will say and do other than going back to russia, encouraging democracy, encouraging young politicians, encouraging the rule of law and encouraging free institutions have become your life's work. or not. >> that's the point of my life today. it's become the point of my life today. and i'm not going to set that aside because this makes my life somewhat more dangerous.

okay, so it's more dangerous. but at the end of the day, if you're going to live any other way that's the same thing of dying today anyway. got to live the way we think is the right way. and then that can be called life. if we live how somebody else is telling us to live, that's not life, that's just survival. i don't want that. i've spent ten years having to live that way and i don't want to do that anymore. so i'm working away today. >> rose: was there an alternative, could you have done something, could you have had an impact of a different kind if you had maintained your position and had some other kind of influence? >> until the spring of 2014, there actually was an

opportunity, a chance that we could find some way to solve problems together with the kremlin. and even better opportunity existed in 2011 before the president totally in contrast or counterto our constitution decided to return to office. we've passed those crossroads and i don't see any other way to help high country or people to prepare for this moment when the regime will fall because it will certainly fall. and the situation in which the country will be at that time is not going to be a very good one. even today it's not in a great situation but i fear that it will be continuing only and right now putin wants by 2018, wants to offer a new model to russian society. i think that this model is together to look very much like

the chinese model. when you have relative freedom in the economy, and it's quite big, it will be compensated for by a very tough harsh political system. that's not going to work in russia. i guarantee it's not going to work in russia. in order to convince yourself that this is not going to work, in order to convince himself it's not going to work, it's going to take putin a couple years. by 2020, he's going to have to start thinking about leaving. >> rose: why do you think it will not work? there is an authoritarian, within the russian culture there's an authoritarian streak. as it was in china. many russians believe that yeltsin and others made a mistake they should have fixed

the economy and left the politics alone as the chinese did. why do you believe it will never work to do it that way? at this late date? different mentality from the chinese one. >> rose: and a rich cultural history. >> our state structure doesn't have this idea of service that exists to a great deal in china. at the same time, people in russia have really gotten used to living for themselves. all this talk about how there's this vertical of power in russia, this harsh system of managing the country, actually these are lies.

there is no vertical of power in russia. putin runs only a very small number of people in his inner circle. and he resolves specific concrete tasks, the main task number one of which is to stay in power. the country on the whole actually is run by a whole bunch of people. not a single group of people but hetero regeneral ross people each of room had his own piece of tuive. you can't in a situation like this develop a normal economy in russia if you don't have an independent judiciary. but the moment you have an independent judiciary, today's system of governance falls apart. you can't adopt normal laws in such a huge country if your parliament doesn't

professionally discuss these laws as is something like the u.s. congress. the moment you have a normal independent influential powerment the system of power falls apart. you can't conduct a modern economy in the government of russia if you tonight have a small and medium size business. if you don't have independent entrepreneurial association the moment this monopolization of the economy that currently is in the country starts falling apart. when 70% of the gdp is in putin's and inner circle's hands. >> rose: the gdp is in putin's circle of friends. >> they don't need privatization either. they're perfectly happy with this economy being formally in the government hands but they are personally running it.

i'll give you the example rosnen itself. it's a state company, the state owns a you been stash part of the company. according to our constitution, the russian government's share in companies is not run by the president but by the government. section the head of rosfnef says he is not going to be accountable to the government. if you call that state enterprise i have no idea what sections private property is. and his teams. so the moment this monopolistic structure falls apart and you need that for an economy to develop. monopolism is killing development in russia, you understand that. at that very moment today's

regime falls. in other words putin even if he wants to conduct a reform, he can't. and i'm sure that he will realize this. i know that in the next few years he's going to realize this. and then no other variant other than either totally collapsing the culpatory or leaving himself, he wroanlt have any alternative. >> rose: do you believe you know him and understand him? >> well in the broadest global sense every person is so complicated we never can see we understand somebody fully. but if we talk about the way he runs the country, about the -- >> rose: i'm talking about his mind set. >> about how he thinks about how to manage people and governance, i think that i and other people who have been watching is for a long time understand him very well. because really in the most ten years or so he that changed much

at all. he's become a little more self confident maybe. >> rose: with reason. >> of course. i've always said that he's being successful in some of the things he's doing. against the background of falling apart of the russian economy. he's got lots of success in manipulating the western political system. i'm not quite sure what russia citizens gain from that. >> rose: who are the five most important people to him. the five most important people to him who he depends on for his control, success, survival. >> i'm not really sure that there are people on which he

depends directly. but there are people that can manipulate him quite successfully. inside russia it's considered that number one, in manipulating putin -- also an extremely important person strange as it may seem for putin is kadirif. >> rose: leaders of czechna. you believe he will fall. at some point in the future there will be a russia without vladimir putin. >> i think that such a reason will be putin's realization that any model that he can offer russia is thought going to work. he has already offered russia two models.

he's now together to offer a third one and it too is not going to be successful and i think that will lead to the psychological crises. how this psychological crises is going to actually be implemented, if you will. well my image of the best option would be if vladimir putin tries to himself transfer power to his chosen successor. the successor will put together a round table or as they stay in the constitution a constituent assembly that will form a transition government, conduct a political reform and lead the country out of crises. and then in 24 months, honest elections. that would be the gentlest transformation possible. other transformations are much less gentle and i don't even want to articulate them because

i don't want to bring harm to my country. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> rose: on the next charlie rows. the 2016 nascar sprint cup champion. >> we won a couple times early in the season and the summer kind of hit as a group. we realize our four cars weren't performing as they needed too. our department head, 650 people that race cars for us. >> rose: charlotte. >> everybody locked arms and we knew we had a mountain to climb. working together we did it. just in time just as the choice started our play-off started we were getting off again. won two events in the post season and then that lead for our opportunity for the champion in miami and i run the race. >> rose: that's interesting was i follow formula one. they've got a claw matic race coming up and the idea is that the same team one was winning

for a while and the other was winning and now essentially it will be decided by the final. which says interesting things to me about the nature of the engine, the nature of the driver, the nature of the team and all of that. >> think of the stress put on these vehicles and sometimes a $.05 part breaks or something much more elaborate from the engine, the tire running over debris on the track. that's what makes the championship so special over the years, all the opportunity you thought is there goes away and it doesn't. >> rose: how have your skills changed. >> i think i'm taking care of myself physically. i'm able to stay sharp mentally and physically. >> rose: people don't know how much driving is a physical chimp. >> without a doubt. a huge part of it. to sustain the energy and hydration over the course of the race things i've learned through

endurance sports has gone right over to my day job. >> rose: do you see it differently. does the experience give you a sense how you see the challenge of where you, and the challenge of the ras itself from the drivers perspective beyond the fact that you have incrementally added new experiences. >> absolutely. these tracks change, each and every year. like a golfer to a golf course. the more time you come to a course you know where the breaks are. you know how to play it and i know how to drive these tracks and know where the line goes and how to set up my car and the direction to lead my team. plus life experiences, learn how to manage stress, manage pressure, manage your schedule, machine life especially if you race as often as we do. >> rose: beyond the track in terms of formula one and indy 500 in terms of nascar what's the difference for a driver. >> in nascar we're not allowed

to have -- indy car formula one, they have streaming data coming off the cars and they can tell you what's wrong. i'm the computer in nascar. the drivers are the computers. >> rose: for more about this program and early episodes visit us on-line at pbs.org and charlie rose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

>> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide.

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