. >> rose: welcome to the program. tonight denis mcdonough chief of staff for president obama for the hour. >> you've done a great disservices achieve of staff if an easy decision gets to the president. his time should be reserved for the hardest decision, that get in there because they're hard. and you should make sure, my job is to make sure those decisions are squared up, keyed up to him square. not kind of uneven. it's been developed transparently, anybody ho has a view on the matter, an equity in the matter has been heard on it. >> denis mcdonough for the hour next. >> funding for charlie rose is provided by the following:

>> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> so 11 days, today is january 9th. january 20th, a new president takes over. when i say that, 11 days left in the obama administration, what do you think? >> i think there is still a lot of work we've got to get done in these 11 days. i think that i'm glad it's just about that and not many more. and i think that thank god we did as much as we did until now. because i'll tell you what, i used to say this in the start of the second term. the beauty of being around for two terms is first of all it

means you got re-elected but second of all you also have perspective of how quickly those first four years went and the second go even faster. so you say 11 days, a say it gives me anxiety because we have some work to do but it gives me a lot of relief too. >> rose: what do you have to do? >> i've got to move a lot of dooments to the national archive, that is the first thing we've been worrying about. we have a team that has been working on this lit reallily this whole last calender year. moving, you know, hundreds of millions of emails, hundreds of millions of documents be pursuant to the presidential records act which is a post water gait. >> rose: hundreds of millions of emails. >> hundreds of millions of email. >> rose: all public emails go into this. >> correct them all go into the national archive, they become public records, searchable by the public. we're doing their business. they get a chance to look at our emails. and so that's one thing we have got to do the other thing is we have business yet that we want

to get done. >> rose: like what. >> we're making a series of good arguments this week about the affordable care act. because we think that some of the debate that is beginning really today in the senate in earnest would benefit from kind of us, the insertion of the facts and experience that we've had with the act. and then the other big thing we 're doing everything that we can to get the next president and his team, everything they need to be ready on january 20th as of 12:01 because he is going to be president. that is in the constitution, there are no do overs or start overs on that one. >> what will you miss the most? >> i'll miss the people. i will miss the team of people, it is an unbelievably capable committed group of people. i say this all the time. that you know, a guy we work with, says that if you can design anything about your work, you want to design the people you get to work with. you know, we spend more time

together than we do with our families, you know. and if-- . >> rose: you better like them. >> you letter-- better like them and you better respect them and you better treat them with respect and with dignity. because by the way, you know. they're going to see you the your best and see you at your worst. >> rose: tomorrow in chicago the president will give his farewell. >> yeah. >> rose: the tradition goes all the way back to george washington. >> it does. >> rose: presidents have left general eisenhower famously. >> great speech. >> rose: great speech, industrial, what are the themes that this president who you know so well, almost like a brother, feels. >> well, you know, i have seven brothers, so. >> rose: an four sisters. >> that's right. and my so my job with the president, my relationship is i'm his staff guy. i've always been that.

i always understood that. i hope one day i will be his friend. >> rose: but he calls you his friend, he calls you his friend. >> and i aspire to that, believe me. but i'll-- he is still working the speech. but i think what you will hear tomorrow is a lot of what you have heard since he started. it is partly why he wanted to go back to chicago to give the speech. because you know, this is a place where working on the south side of chicago in the neighborhoods under, in the shadows of the abandoned steel mills as a community organizer with people who had been, you know, knocked out of jobs that there to for had been, you know, real paths to the middle class, that he recognized that he had a gift for organizing. he had a gift for getting people working together towards the same goal. and i think that's what you will hear a lot about from the president tomorrow. the importance of sticking together, working together, standing up for what you believe

in. and then fighting like hell for it. >> rose: he believes america strong. >> he believes america strong and he believes america, america is an exceptional power. and he believes that his, as he said, numerous times his story, his personal story is possible only in this country. and i happen to believe that tooment and you see it all over this city. >> rose: raised by one parent. >> raised by one parent, got to know his dad only sparingly. raised by grandparents. and you know what, he got the shot that he got because he had a good education. >> that is part of his police kal success, he was able to make his narrative in 2008 a story of america. >> yeah. well trk is a story of america. he didn't have to make it, it is the story of america. >> rose: but he had to tell it. >> he had to tell it. >> rose: and make it his narrative. >> is he an believable story teller. >> rose: he will talk about

his narrative. >> he will talk about his narrative. he will talk about the fact that that narrative can still be true here. but again i don't want to get ahead of his speech. he's still working it. one thing i do know is that this president, i am never going to get ahead of him and cody and the speech writers on this one, that's for sure. >> rose: so we will have to wait until tomorrow to see what he says. >> i think so. i think so. >> rose: my guess is he will talk about the media, not about criticizing but how it's changed. and how it affects democracy because he's been talking about that theme. >> yeah. >> rose: in some exit interviews. >> even if he does it in the speech he has been talking about, we've done a good job on this in some places. but we've also been on the wrong end of this. information is moving super fast. stories move super fast. when i talk to my predecessors, they talk about some of them the most important set of calls they make at any given day was you

know at the end of the day on friday when they call the news anchors to talk about the weekend and talk about what happened the week before and the week ahead, that's just not the e media is much moree in today. disaggregated. it's much more specialized. people can get their media the way they want it. from the sources they want. >> and sometimes you don't know where the source is coming from. >> that's correct. >> rose: as he has talked about in terms of-- fake news. >> yeah, yeah, correct, correct. >> rose: and then we have a president that tweets, a president-elect. >> well, the president talked about that a little bit yesterday. and he said that that has been a tool that has served the president lech very well. it gets him very instantly in touch with his-- with his voters with the media. but he also talked a little bit about how they've talked about. >> rose: 140 characters. >> yeah, well, you know, i mean

information is moving fast, right. >> rose: suppose you were giving a farewell address. what would you want to say? you have been by the side of barack obama since he was in the senate. you've seen two campaigns. you've seen a white house from the oval office. you've traveled with him as he has met foreign leaders. you in some sense controlled who had access to him. what does denis mcdonough say in his farewell. >> i tell you what i would say is first of all, i don't know who-- it would be like an empty hall. here is what i would say, i would say thank you, it's an unbelievable opportunity to watch the president do what he is doing. second thing is i would say as amazing as the approximates' story is, that is what has always made america great.

i'm as unlikely a chief of staff as he is unlakely a president, i guess. right? i've got ten brothers and sisters. i've got, you know, i grew up in minnesota and here i am. i didn't even really he know these jobs existed. but that's because in this country if you take a shot, you will get it. >> rose: what are you going to tell your grand children? there have been moments that you say to yourself i will never forget this. >> yeah. you know, god willing i will have grandkids and that will be a great thing, one. two, what i will tell them is that the things that make you get a shot to be chief of staff or a staffer in the white house or you know, staffer in the senate or the house or to be hardworking, to get smart, get as smart as you can on a topic, argue like hell your position, and if you lose the argument, you fall in behind whatever the

decision is and you get on with it. nobody needs to know a staffer's position. >> rose: so that brings me to the question of what does the chief of staff do? i mean give us a sense of your day,s what it's been like. when do you see the president, who do you see before that? are you there for his security briefings. >> yeah, so i start the morning with my security briefing. i start the morning with a workout and i get my security briefing. then we go into a series of meetings with the senior staff. one in the cheaf of staff office, one in the roosevelt room. then the president comes down and he has his security briefing and i join that with the national security advisor, the homeland security advisor, deputy national security advisor. and the deputy national security advisor for strategic communications and the vice president and his national security advisor. and that's the first time i see him in the day and then you know, we go into meetings throughout the day and then i

see him before he goes home at night. >> it depends on what is happening, right? it's a lot of what we are doing is being driven by what is happening, getting us ready or getting our arguments ready for a fight on the hill. so we have basically during the morning a lot of prep time for various press engagements and other things. in the afternoon it is really dedicated in the main toe policy development, either in our national economic council, in our domestic policy council and our national security council. and the office of science and technology policy, everybody, every day is ng kraing out new ideas and implementing things like the affordable care act. >> rose: people say that anything, the only thing that fetes to the president's desk is something that couldn't be decided by some earlier. >> that's right. you've done a great disservices achieve of staff, it it an easy decision gets to the president. his time should be reserved for the hardest decisions.

they get in there because they're hard. and you should make sure my job is to make sure those decisions, those decisions are squared up, hetied up to him square. not kind of uneven, it's develop transparently, anybody who has a view on the matter, an equity on the matter has been heard on it. somebody is not-- a paper is not going to come out, a decision is not going to come out and the president checks, you know, block a and somebody comes out and says i never got a chance to make that argument. i wanted to make an argument for block b. i wasn't given that opportunity. >> rose: your job is to be an honest broker. >> my job is partially to be an honest broker but my job will yous-- includes other things. but that is what i feel is my most critical assignment, to be an honest broker so when the president makes a difficult decision has all the information he needs and it istied up that everyone who wanted a shot at it has gotten a shot at it. >> rose: so you control access to the president. that makes you what some people

call the second most powerful person in washington. >> you know, maybe it's been different in other white houses. and maybe it's because of how president obama works. i-- it's important to me to know what's going into the president and what is coming out. i don't control access to the president though. and if i try-- . >> rose: you control the paper flow, you control what he sees, you control who he sees. >> yeah. >> rose: you control what appointments he makes. >> we have a team of us that make a series of-- . >> rose: but are you the ultimate decider of this? >> you know who the ultimate decider around here is the president, it's the president. and what-- . >> rose: the president will come to you and say i want to yeah, or i hear he's nott get n getting in, straighten this out. >> rose: what's the problem here. >> straight ten out. he might use a little spicier language than that. >> rose: when is he most angry? >> he is most angry when you

have not-- when he has the impression that you withheld information from him. >> rose: he didn't think he had everything he needed. >> yeah. yeah. look, this is what i think this is probably an instinct of all presidents. i guess reading history books but it's particularly true of president obama. he wants information. he doesn't want to be-- he doesn't want to be given information that somebody else has managed or put together. he wants to be able to go get his own information. >> rose: go out the room and say i haven't heard from you. >> yeah, general jones used to say to people when you are going into a meeting, if you are getting close to the end of the meetk and haven't said something, you better get ready because are you about to get called on by the president. because he wants to hear, he wants to hear dissengs, he wants to hear if there are alternative views. i think it's why they shall it-- he insisted on being able to get his own wireless. so he can get information off

the internet, read what he wants to read and not be subject to whatever his staff pushes into him. >> rose: he goes to for dinner with the family. >> he does. >> rose: 7:00 or so. >> yeah, yeah. >> rose: that is essential for him. >> yeah. he made clear, he made that clear to me in 2013 when we talked about the job. it's really important to him to have dinner with his family every night. and so he is vig rowses about defending that time. and as somebody without grew up sitting around the table with all my family, i don't want-- i don't want him to miss that either. >> rose: and after that he goes up to. >> and after that he has-- he is working. he's working. he goes home with a stack every night and he works his way through that. >> rose: does he get email to people and talk to. >> he does. >> rose: until 2 or 3 in the

morning. >> yeah. >> rose: so you get emails from the president of the united states at 2:00, at 3:00. >> i'm not saying every day, you know, but i've surely seen them at that hour, yep. i mean he-- . >> rose: like what's going on here. >> yeah, or you know, something i need to pick up with you in the morning. >> we all just went thrie an election. >> uh-huh. >> rose: he has said as he said to the staff and you spoke to the staff, you know, history zigs and zaghs. >> yeah. >> rose: why did it zagh. >> i think the thing that we talked about at the top of this interview, charlie, is something say that if you are working is hard at school and you are kind of rolling up your sleeves and doing your homework, playing by the rules, you could get a shot here. that was true for my parents, it was true for your parents. it is why my grandparents came here from ireland cuz they

weren't getting that fair shot. and i think people feel right now that it's that basic bargain that you play by the rules. you work hard, you are going to get a shot. they feel like the odds are stacked, the deck is stacked against themment and i think that's what informed a lot of the loading in the fall. >> rose: you have been in power for eight years. >> yes. >> rose: you had the capacity. >> yes. >> rose: the bully pulpit. >> yes. >> rose: to say to them that's not true. we're here to communicate with you. we're here to tell you how we're trying to make things better for you. show that failed. >> i the election is the result. >> we are not here to only to communicate with the american people. we're here to change things. and if you were to stack up, charlie, the fact that we're now just last friday had the 72nd month in a row of job growth, this is now the longest

streak of job growth, greater than 50%. greater than the 48 months which is the next closest streak. we changed the health-care system, 22 million people have health care. we change the way we conduct foreign affairs. we changed the way wall street did business. we feel like we made a lot of changes. never the less, the american people still don't feel that. in key ways. >> rose: so explain to me why that is. >> look,. >> rose: the president's approval is as high as it has been in a child. >> yeah. >> rose: and yet you had an election result that you had. now he says he could have won. he would have won. he said that today but-- to chicago and talking about politics. >> i think what he said is that for two elections in a row he won the majority in the country, which is obviously not been done

since eisenhower. and he feels very strongly about-- . >> rose: both the electoral college and popular vote. >> that's correct. >> and a majority of the popular is my point, not just a plur allity. and-- plurality. and he also, and he continues to feel strongly that his message of hope is the right message. and it's not only right but it's also timely. for precisely the reason that we're talking about, charlie. parts of the country still don't feel like they're getting that fair shot. is that going to be results in eight years, after the deepest recession since the great depression, probably not. which is where we have to keep firing away at this. >> rose: their life should be better off and they should recognize that, if we have gone from where we were in 2008 when he was being elected to where we are in 2017 when is he handing over power. >> correct. and i-- . >> rose: there is some basic disconnect here. >> there may be. or it may be that as is

traditionally as is the case in america where people have great as prition-- aspiration and have great expectation, that they always want more. and that's one of the great things about this country. >> rose: well there is also this. he has said that he really spent most of his time trying to govern rather than build the democratic party, rather than taking care of politics, except for the re-election. he had a team that helped him in 2008 and helped him again with some changes in 2012. >> yeah. >> rose: same constituency they appealed to. >> yeah. but he has simply said i was governing and didn't-- because the democratic party in his own words, and he is the head of the democratic party, is in bad shape. he said that. they need to rebuild. he said it. >> look, he acknowledged all of the things you said, charlie. he also said he acknowledges his-- the role, the part of the

role that he had in that. he also acknowledges that we have the best ideas in this. we're watching this play out this week, all right. it is great when are you in the opposition to be against things. when are you governing you have got to be for them and you have to deliver. and we're seeing this play out in the house and senate now. >> rose: in terms of affordable care. >> yeah. and soo they get a chance now to be for something. and what the president said the other day-- . >> rose: they being the republicans and president-elect. >> well, he's not in office. >> rose: i said president-elect. >> but my comments are reflecting specifically the debate that is going on in the congress right now. they said that they'll repeal and replace the affordable care act. the president said the other day, give me-- propose something that will cover, reduce the uninsured rate to the lowest rates' ever been, that will see historicically slow cost growth in health care, give me a system

that will make a preexisting condition that you have, for example, in some cases pregnancy would not be covered under the old system affordable care act because it was considered a preexisting condition. you can imagine that. so he said give me a system that does all those things and i will be the first one to go out and argue for the repeal of the affordable care act and replace with that new system. what i will tell su that a system that covers this many people, at this rate of historically slow growth while covering things like substance abuse disorder treatment, opennoid addiction treatment, preexisting conditions, i think you'll find this is the best-- . >> rose: it is a very controversial program in the country. >> it is. >> rose: as you know. >> yes. >> rose: so is this one more time an issue of communication, an issue of being able to explain. >> i think-- rrs i mean it had

its-- in terms of getting start, which you probably are responsible in part. >> if not in the main, exactly. >> rose:. >> so there's no question about that. that it's controversial. but i guess i ask you, you are a communicator too, right? so you tell me what about the republican proposal to replace the affordable care act will scratch these itches that we're talking about? cost growth, preexisting conditions coverage, parody for addiction or substance abuse disorder. those are all things that are present in the existing, in the affordable care act. and so those are facts. so let's talk about the facts for a second. >> rose: but at the same time with people are dropping out of the exchanges left and right. >> i don't think that's true at all. >> rose: at all? insurance companies were not

participating. >> look. >> rose: there was a series of announcements by different insurance companies. >> there were-- there are 23 to 24 million 350e78 today who have health-care coverage as a result of the affordable care act without did not have it before. so partially that's an outcome of the expansion of medicaid and partially that's an expansion of the market places. and there, so the idea that people were dropping out of that left and right or that insurance companies are dropping out left and right, there were some who are in, some who were out. by the way, this san industry that has an individual health-care market in the small group health-care market, has a lot of churn every year. that was true before the affordable care act and it's true today. the difference is 24 million, nearly 24 million people now have coverage that did not have it under the old system. what's also true is year on year on year for the last three years we've seen rates of health care

inflation lower than at any time since world war ii. >> rose: so what is your warning to the american people if, in fact, the affordable air exact is done away with? and there is nothing to replace it? what is going to happen? >> i am not news-- . >> rose: should you be within the good news is that the republicans are coming out of a gate with a series of proposals now to reform, repeal, replace the affordable care act. they've said they have a plan to repeal. they don't have one to replace. so our challenge to them is take advantage of this time to come up with a plan, before you repeal a perfectly fine system, before you repeal that. come up with what is going to replace it. because you have 24 million people with the reliance

interest on the system as it stands. >> rose: you are fighting hard for this because you believe it's part, a central legacy of president obama. >> we're fighting hard for this because we think that working families want health-care coverage. when we were talking about that basic bargain that has been at the heart of american dream for time infinityu m, one of those is if you play by the rules you can get your shot, you can get health-care coverage. but guess what, until the affordable care act, if you played by the rules, if you had a preexisting condition, even a pregnancy, it was entirely allowable for health-care companies to say we're not going to cover you. because we don't want to pay the cost. >> rose: what is the biggest mistake you have made in terms of-- when you look back at getting that affordable care act passed. >> back in-- . >> rose: was it the excuse. >> back in 2009, 2010, or once we had the authority how we implemented do you mean. in 2009, 2010 to be honest i was

an observer on that from down the hall and the national security council space. so i-- i think i believe that hard things are hard, every president since shoot, back to roosevelt, franklin roosevelt had tried to get affordable care act, tried to get health-care coverage, universal health-care coverage. it is hard, it takes time it took time but we got a plan that in the main has developed, has delivered. >> rose: the president went up to congress to try to tell them democrats up there. >> face to face. >> he went up to congress to say thank you for working with me on. this he want up to congress to say keep fighting for this, because it's working. and he went up to congress to say look, if they have a plan that covers all the things that we want to cover, preexisting conditions, having historically low cost growth, having, you know, tens of millions of people get health-care coverage that didn't have it before.

>> rose: what are the things that you had to do. one other thing you had to do was deal with the idea of hacking. and you have argued that it was necessary to release a report, to release a report and have insurance, have all the intelligence agencies report to the president then it was deliver to the president-elect. >> yeah. >> rose: is that a bothersome for you and for the president, the reaction of the president-elect. >> no. i mean-- look, we thought the report was important for the following reasons. the president ran in 2008, both he and john mccain's campaigns were hacked at the time. he obviously ran for re-election in 2012. and then we saw, we witnessed this election 2016. we thought it was important that we get a straight up best assessment from our

professionals in the intelligence community who are excellent. precisely what has happened, so as to give the next set of policy makers that will occupy these offices the best information we have so that they can develop plans and policies to insure that it doesn't happen again. and the best way to start that is to give them our best assessments, soup to nuts based on all sorts of intelligence of what we think happened. that was the motivation for the report. i think that the report that has been given has hit that target. and now as even the president-elect's team said on friday that they're going to really scrub in on this question of cybersecurity in the first, i think they said first 90 days of the administration. i think that's a good thing. the president has raised this with the president-elect. i raised it with my counterpart. there is no issue, there is no single issue on which i have spent more time than

cybersecurity in the last two years. >> rose: how vulnerable are we? >> we're only vulnerable if we make mistakes. if we click on the wrong email. >> were we slow to respond. the president seemed to indicate that maybe we should have responded to this earlier. >> i think we have been discertaining-- discertaining collecting the evidence. >> even though in october we knew there was an intelligent tober what we knew, but before we say anything publicly we always want to be certain about what it is that we're saying. and we also want to make sure we're coordinating with all the re8 vant, not only actors on the executive branch end of the street but also coordinating and consulting with congress on this as well. and that's precisely what we do. >> what is it you want to say to those people coming too the white house about being there. what is it that you have learned. what is the lesson that denis

has seen and they ought to know. because everybody says, the president as well, it's a sobering experience when on top of your shoulders come, the responsibility. >> the first thicket we say and we want to say and we do say is how can we be helpful. what do you need? that's direct guidance from the d that goes back to early into last calender year when we began doing this work. anita decker, one of our deputy chiefs of staff here has been really working this issue. everything from as we said transfer of our documents to the national archives. to presentation of briefing books and briefing papers, to getting awe security clearance process set to making sure that the ethics reviews are ready to go. these are all things that we

have been working for a long time and that's directly at the president's demand because one, we want to make sure that the next team has everything it needs. >> rose: is it possible that people might seem like we have two presidents at the same time? >> it's very important for us to operate and we continue to operate that this, per the constitution the president obama, president elect january 20th, at 12:01. >> rose: do you think the president-elect goes too far at some times at being too aggressive. >> i will let those guys character what they are doing and why he had are doing it. i will tell you we have work to do. a big part of that work is transition to get those guys up an running but that is not all the work we're doing. we will continue exercising the enormous power entrusted in the president by the american people until 12:01 on january 20th. >> rose: talk about two things. one you acknowledged how important the affordable care act was. >> yes. >> rose: you have acknowledged how restoring the economy and how that is achievement you are

proud of, where the economy is. the president has said the toughest day for him was newtown. >> yes. >> guns are still a huge issue. what more could be done? do you ask your severe, is there anything that we could have done because we believe that guns are tied to-- . >> look, i mean-- . >> rose: conflicts?. >> we spent a lot of time on this question. spent a lot of time talking to congress, republicans, democrats. shoot, i even reached out to the gun manufacturers to ask them to come in, sit down. >> rose: did they? >> no. >> you asked them to come in and sea said no. >> that's correct. so we've tried everything we can. >> rose: what was their leave it to them but look, i was a fisherman. i am a fisherman.

i'm not a hunter. but i grew up in all my buddies are still. >> fishing, fishing or hunting. and i have a great administration for that,-- adds miration for that and so does the president. but the prevalence of fire arms in this country including weapons of war don't make much sense. so we have thought about that hard. we thought about that in senate on background checks. which still astounds me that we don't have simple background checks. and we gave it everything we had and that debate, shortly after newtown. >> rose: is that the highest disappointment. >> surement and then we've looked at everything we can do of our executive authority. i think we have done important things like tightening the database for background checks.

making sure that we understand precisely why happens in gun shows and otherwise. but yeah, if the question is do we, is there more i we wish we could have done on guns, the answer to that is yes. >> you have said and the president has said you think about syria ef reday. it is a human tragedy. it is a destruction. you look at aleppo and you look at so much of that country has been destroyed. there is still civil war, although it looks like the person who let putin support it is on the winning side as we speak. what is going to be history's judgement about syria in your

judgement? what will it say? >> look, i think that it's difficult for me to stip late to one premise you raise which is that assad comes out of this a winner. >> rose: well, i mean by winner in terms of territory, controlled and. >> retacking a helpo and. >> right, so i think that's a very important question and i think-- . >> rose: an having leverage on the ground and there is a conference in which, you know, iran and russia and turkey, not the united states meant to met to talk about the future of syria. >> yeah. >> well, as you know, nobody has done more interesting and important reporting on this than you, including the very critical acknowledge amount in august and

sevment of 2013 when president assad then for the first time ever under credible threat of force from the united states acknowledged the existence of a chemical weapons program, on your show with you. for the first time ever. something that he refused to acknowledge then to for. >> rose: and acknowledged also that if in fact there might not be a strike, he might be forced to do something about the chemical weapons. >> right. >> rose: but i talked to you on the phone because you were on "face the nation" when i was leaving. >> correct. and what happened is that not only did he acknowledge the existence of that program but he also gave it up under international inspection. so that is a result of a very credible threat of military force from the president of the

united states. something that he developed over the course of many months with very important messaging. so the first thing that history will acknowledge is that potentially for the first time, a government gave up its chemical weapons arsenal and acknowledged its program as a result of american pressure. the secretary thing that acknowledges that intense an unimaginable human suffering were basically millions 7 million syrians are not in the home they want to be. >> and they are refugees and my grants and disrespecting and causing political change in

europe. >> yeah, yes. the third point is the one that are you referring to, is that this intense humanitarian suffering brought about by one person, assad, aided by the russians and indiscriminate bombing by places like aleppo, schools, hospitals, residences, is having geo political impact. the fact that the russians needed to intervene militarily to maintain the status quoa, i don't think is a sign of russian strength. and also that the united states as it relates to this humanitarian suffering, has now for years lead international investment to address that. now it is still for the reasons that you and i talked about at the beginning something that as the president said, asive's acknowledged, john kerry has

said and susan rice, something that we continue to look for alternative options and outcomes every day. but what we also know is that the question of whether the united states got more deeply involved militarily in syria as being the only-- as being the best possible outcome for syria, i think is also faulty. >> rose: okay, let me stay with that point. the president spoke and i remember at the time of the afghan surge early on. he was searching, that was a long-- he was searching for alternatives at that time and looking at numbers and all kinds of things. and felt like it was said and written that he was perplexed by not having more options. >> uh-huh.

>> rose: true or not true, i assume. >> i think that's true. i think-- . >> rose: and here you have a situation in which it's either like 100,000 plus troops or what? i mean was there no alternative when you-- cuz you clearly searched hard. >> yeah. >> rose: you understood what was happening on the ground. you understood that the united states was the most powerful country in the world. you understood that was it only the fact that you didn't think you could make a difference that you didn't do more? >> in the first instance the question was what was the objective, charlie. the objective was stopping the use of the chemical weapons arsenal. >> rose: you achieved that. >> and we achieved that. >> rose: . >> so you recall that the question often debated is whether we shouldn't have intervened so as to express very manifestly our opposition to how he was conducting business to

include by use of chemical weapons. >> the use of force or the use of-- force sake doesn't make a lot of. >> the threat of the use of force to achieve one's objective, knowing that you need to back up the threat of that use of force makes a lot of sense strategically. and we did. and as a result, syria gave up its chemical weapons. >> rose: as you know. >> so then the question becomes after, that after he has given up the chemical weapons, to what end would we have intervened militarily to express our opposition to syria's conduct of its civil war? that would make us a we lige rant in the civil war. and what the president has been clear about is that no-- you-- i

think the nature of your question suggests that you believe that it's a false choice for us to say either don't get involved or you know, put 100,000 troops on the ground. >> i'm asking the question, was there-- was that the only two alternatives. >> no, there were other alternatives. >> the other alternatives that might have made a difference is my question. >> there are other alternatives. there were none that in my judgement would hyve made a difference. and there was none that would have allowed us with confidence to say that once you started you wouldn't get more deeply pulled in. >> and in the end that was a fundamental belief of the president. >> that is my belief. that is my belief. >> rose: speaking of that, was the pivot to china or to asia and latin america and to-- did it work.

>> yes. >> deeply involved in the middle east. we had troops on the ground in av ban stand. >> we do. >> rose: we have troops on the ground in iraq. >> and we're making substantial progress against isil in iraq, in mosul, in syria. we've not seen them be able to carry out the kinds of attacks in the united states that they clearly aspire to. and we have to stay on the offense against them so that they cannot. >> in afghanistan which was the site at which from which al qaeda planned the terrible attacks on 9/11 and new york, you know, here at the pentagon and up in pennsylvania. they have not been able to and will not be able to because of our ongoing presence, have the kind of free rain to plot and plan and carry out those kinds of attacks against us. the pivot, the rebalance never

envisioned us washing our hands of areas in which we have great interest. south asia, the middle east, europe, what it did envision is us saying asia is where the people are. where the opportunity is. where the growth is, and where potential conflicts are. so we're going to maintain and increase our presence there. strengthen our alliances as we have done with china, with the koreans, even with the thai, australians and new zealand rdz this is no longer your problem but a lot of americans and the president as well and you, even though it will not be your problem in ten days are concerned about the reports from north korea, by the lead threr who says we're working on an icbm. >> yes. >> rose: that can deliver a nuclear warhead. >> yes. >> rose: to the konl united states. is that. >> very much our problem. very much our problem.

>> rose: it is our problem as a country. >> rose: what do you say to the incoming president-elect, that this goes to the top of your. >> we've made that clear since we started these conversations, that this goes to the top of the list. that this is a critically important issue. that china needs to understand the importance we attach to it. it's a core interest of ours a to not be threatened by north korea. and that our a lineses and allies need to have confidence that we remain deeply engaged with them as against this threat. and that the north koreans will continue to feel deeper and deeper isolation. >> rose: but that hasn't stopped them from moving forward. and the president told me in germany.

every time they make a mistake they learn from it. >> that's true. that's true of prolive raters everywhere. which is why we have been as expolicive as we have been with its neighbor, china, about what we expect not to happen here. >> rose: it has moved to the top rank of american. >> no question. it has been throughout, throughout this at mrgsment and we've encouraged the next team to take that view as well. >> rose: two questions, two final questions. one, president obama, knowing so well help us understand who this man who has been leading us that we might not know, because were you there, you have seen everyr3 move, you've seen every question, you have seen his serntd, you have seen his doubts, you have seen his successes, you have seen his failures. what do you want the country to know about barack obama?

>> i am routinely amazed at how hard this guy works, this president works while making it look effortless. i just told you-- . >> rose: grace under pressure or something? >> i think so, or recognition that there is a right answer out there and he is bound to get it. and he bound so press his team and work with anybody to get the right answer. he goes, he goes up to the residence every night where a stabling of binders and he doesn't come down until they're read. or he doesn't go to bed until they're read. whether that's until 3:00 in the morning. the point is that this is really a hard job. and the problems that land on his desk are really hard problems. and he takes that really, really

seriously. and to be witness to that and party to that is not only extremely interesting intellectually, but i think speaks to his dedication to making sure that he lives up to the expectations of the american people and what is ahead of them. i would say that is one thing. i would say one other thing is as a dad myself, i love watching the president as a dad. i get advice from the president on my kids. i get admonishments or scoldings from him when i'm not doing what i need to do as a dad. and i am struck by that. and i will miss that. >> rose: what is it between the two of you? he had five chiefs of staff.

you are who they call obama's obama. i mean there's something. >> the work that you know, rahm and bill and pete and jack did, those are different-- i think the difference here is the difference between a first term and a second term, right. and the difference is those guys governing every day in crisis when they came in, literally every day in crisis when they came in. you know, first jobs report, last week we had a jobs report, we added about 160,000 jobs. unemployment at 4.7%. wage growth is, you know, 4/10. the kind of growth we're seeing now in wages, they would have dreamed of in those first months. so i-- . >> rose: there was so much focus on restoring the economy.

>> just so much crisis. there was so much crisis. and i, frankly, i've benefited from their work then and i benefit it from an unbelievably good team as i said a minute ago. the thing i will miss more than anything is this team. >> rose: he has said over the weekend too, an interesting thing. he thinks it's been bad in the last couple of years, not just the country is better, not just the economy is et abouter but his ability to do the job. >> look, i think he-- . >> rose: that there was a cumulative experience he still believes in the two-term limits. >> he is a really good president, i think. and he's been a good president. history will find that so. he's really also really good at being president. so guess what, that's what happens when you are in the job for, you know, six, eight years, right? but as he said, you also then after eight years you need fresh blood. >> rose: he made the argument to the displeasure t was said of bill clinton at the time, that

ronald reagan for all kinds of reasons was a transform tiff president, transform tiff. >> yes. >> rose: can anybody in this administration make the case ta barack obama beyond the fact of race, the first line in his biography most people believe will always say first black president. >> look, i-- i played a lot of games in my life, okay. i never predicted the outcome of any game. but i won a lot of them. and the guy who i know has won a lot more is barack obama. so i am not, i don't think we need to predict any outcomes or anything else. but i think that the decisions he made around restoring the economy, the decisions he's made on health care, the decisions he's made as it relates to the use of force overseas will hold

up. but let's play the game and see how it ends. >> and i think we're going to do fine. >> rose: because when would argue are you down to the process in which it is looking like a new world order. >> they will, and our job is not to describe problems but to confront them. and change them. and so i like-- i like our record. i like as the president said the other day that he bet at every turn on the american people and no president has ever lost a bet on the american peoplement and i think he beliefs deeply in democracy. he believes deeply in the american people as he said. i think that will suit him just fine. >> rose: thank you for joining us. >> thanks, charlie. >> rose: denis mcdonough, cheefer of staff to president barack obama for the hour. thank you for joining us. >> for more about this program and earlier episodes visit us

online at pbs.org and charlie rose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

>> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. >> you're watching pbs.

man: it's like holy mother of comfort food.ion. kastner: throw it down. it's noodle crack. patel: you have to be ready for the heart attack on a platter. crowell: okay, i'm the bacon guy, right? man: oh, i just did a jig every time i dipped into it. man #2: it just completely blew my mind. woman: it felt like i had a mouthful of raw vegetables and dry dough. sbrocco: oh, please. i want the dessert first! [ laughs ] i told him he had to wait.