Skip to main content

tv   Charlie Rose  PBS  May 1, 2017 3:59pm-4:59pm PDT

3:59 pm
4:00 pm
>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin our series of conversations about president trump's first 100 days with maggie haberman of the "new york times" and cnn. >> what's fascinating about him it's difficult to be a president, you're not going to have agreement on shared of facts with this president. we saw this a lot during the campaign. he will present numbers that are just not true about either crowd size or the effect of his policies or about when something took place. and when you challenge him on it, he will say well that's what i read somewhere or someone sent me that. it's never sort of his own domain and he doesn't own it, he doesn't take proprietary field for it. so a win is what he in his mind what he decides it is and that is his challenge right now is
4:01 pm
how do i tell people, how do i tell the public that a 100 day presidency, first period of high presidency where his poll numbers, personal approval rating has been around 40% pretty much give or take a few points. where he has historic unpopularity and unfavorability where he has been stymied by a congress where his party has the majority, in both houses, how do i spell that as victory. >> rose: we continue with sheila nevins hbo documentary films her book is called you don't look your age and other fairy tales. >> it's hard to be a woman getting older that's working. it's hard to once have been saturdaysy and very pretty and suddenly see everything disappearing. it's hard the images of aging and women are so incredibly destructive to keeping it going. >> rose: and we conclude this evening with an appreciation of the oscar winning film director jonathan demme, he dyed this
4:02 pm
week at age 73. >> sometimes people asked me well what's the common link in your movies or what have you. the only common link for me is i've loved the source material and i love the source material because it's been my view beautifully written. >> rose: maggie haberman, sheila nevins and an appreciation of jonathan denial when we continue. >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by the following: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose.
4:03 pm
>> president trump mark his 100th day in office on saturday despite an ambitious agenda, he will that be celebrating any legislative victories. he does have a confirmation for supreme court justice. his healthcare plan has been pushed off to avoid another government shut down. joining me now is maggie haberman of the "new york times" and cnn. i want to start this about this, and this is what dillon buyers wrote in a cnn profile of you. there's no reporter trump respects more than hairman. he inevitably turns to her to share his thinking and participate in interviews. he does so because in addition to having known her for so long he knows she matters and she will not treat him with kid gloves, will not be unfair. she commands washington and new york.
4:04 pm
she gets access to trump because he needs her not because she needs him. >> i don't know how the president would agree with dillon's opening description, and i don't certainly want to speak for him. but i think two things are true. i think i have known him for a long time. i covered him at politico and i covered him at the new york post. longevity matters with him and the familiar matters with him. but i also don't think anyone should make any mistake if i didn't have the prepositional phrase of the "new york times" attached to my name, i'm not sure that i would be speaking to him as frequently. he's fascinate by the "new york times" and it's a marvelous paper. >> rose: what is that about because he has said in front of audiences and i've been there i love the "new york times," it's the jewel. then the next thought out of his mouth is failing "new york times." >> he came to our offices on 40th street and 8th avenue a week or so, two weeks after he was elected. we were the first major interview that he did. and he came to us. we didn't go to him.
4:05 pm
and that was the subject of some debate too because he was scrapped and then he was put back on as often is the case with trump there's negotiation right up until the last second. he grew up in new york. he grew up in the outer boroughs, he still sees himself that way and you know this. he plopped himself down on fifth avenue in this giant black and gold tower he build 30 years ago and has never felt he has gotten the respect he believes he deserves. he's always seen himself as this kid from queens clawing up the ladder. >> rose: somebody's always questioning whether he's worth this or he's worth that. >> and how he made it and did he come to this on his own. how much of this was given to him by his father fred trump versus how much he managed to create as a business unto himself and as a brand unto himself. and this question of legitimacy just exists throughout his career. >> rose: what is this win,
4:06 pm
win, win thing come from. >> it comes from his dad, who was, he's got two mentors and i sort of see them on either shoulder. one is fred trump his father who taught him essentially never give up, always win. and then roy cohen, the mccarthy era -- >> mccarthy's lawyer. >> exactly. who taught him always be on offense and all press is good press. to be clear i don't actually think donald trump believes all press is good press although i've heard him say that a lot but he thinks press is important. >> rose: winning is what matters to him. >> something is a win whether you actually won or not. the thing that's fascinating with him and it's very difficult as a president, to be clear, you're not going to have an agreement on a shared set of facts with this president sometimes. and we saw this a lot during the campaign. he will present numbers that are just not true about either crowd size or about the effect of his
4:07 pm
policies or about when something took place. and when you challenge him on it, he will say well that's what i read somewhere or someone sent me that and it's never society of his own domain and -- sort of his own domain and feel a proprietary to it. how do i tell the public the first 100 days of my presidency where his personal approval rating has been around 40% pretty much give or take a few points. where he has historic unpopularity and unfavorability, where he has been stymied by a congress where his party has the majority. how do i -- in both houses, how do i spell that as victory. >> rose: he first says, and interesting that you pointed this out. the first time he says this is an artificial landmark, artificial standard. then the next thing he does, everything he can to make
4:08 pm
himself look good-bye the judgment of -- >> he's smart enough to know. look, he is a smart man, and this is something that i think he gets dinged for. i don't think that a series of interviews that he gave this past week necessarily served him well. he gave a bunch of hundred day interviews where he said some things that candidly made my jaw drop and i'll get to later. but i think he's aware it is an important marker that gets used and he's also very numbers affixed. he's very sort of visual learner is the term you hear used about kids. i don't know if he's a visual learner but he does really like numbers and graphics and charts. >> rose: and he likes television too. >> he likes teleinvestigate. >> rose: he likes to listen to things rather than read things. >> right. he likes to take things through his ears and see sort of a picture and that's how he absorbs. he knows the immediate yeah is awk sellsed with the hundred day marker.
4:09 pm
to be clear it is not wrong. it is a silly metric and it's not an appropriate metric in a lot of ways in this point in history but it is still one that gets used. >> rose: because it got used a long time ago. >> it started with fdr. it is worn out as utility but it is still the benchmark by which you can sort of do a concurrent with other presidents. >> rose: does he know if the facts are wrong that he is lying. >> so i don't want to profess to be in his head, but when i have interviewed him, there are times when it seems clear to me he knows that what he has just set is not true. and then there are other times where i'm not sure that he knows. so as a for instance, and he did this in an interview with someone recently who was not me. but he will sometimes change the number of something he's just described. so the 59 tom hawk missiles who were dropped in syria been became 79 in the next sentence. i was on the phone with him once
4:10 pm
i 2011, they all blur together, it might have been 2015. he switched, he increased his worse by a certain amount from one sentence to the next. i don't know if he knew he was doing it. but there are other teams he will say something and when you call him on it he'll acknowledge it's not quite right. the challenge with him charlie, you're never really going to know which is which. for instance take what happened this past week with nafta and him claiming that he was on the brink of withdrawing the u.s. from nafta. never mind that he can't just summarily do that but he suddenly at the last minute pulled back by canada and mexico rushing at him and the cabinet secretary. we're never going to know how much of that was him really being there or whether maybe he never really was going to do it and it was brinkmanship. >> rose: he also talks about things as if he's always the greatest. everything is the best, greatest. now that comes out of his book
4:11 pm
in one instance. >> yes, art of the deal is in there. >> rose: so it's just a strategy for him. >> i think that's light. look, i think some of it is -- it's attack particular. he's a very unusual combination of incredibly confident and incredibly insecure. and sometimes -- >> rose: a lot of people like it. >> everything is heightened with him. not that it's unusual to have it with him, bill clinton had that too. in fact there are elements of this presidency, not all certainly but stylistically there are elements of his presidency i think the closest recent modern analogue is bill clinton just in terms of seeking constant outside input and so forth. >> rose: other than clinton, he's the best political animal they've ever seen. >> i mean he's remarkable in being able to, see it makes people feel like he's speaking just to them. >> rose: it's the conversation in the room rather than a speech. >> it's why he's so good a twitter.
4:12 pm
people felt like when he was tweeting for the last several years, he really came through and he was speaking just to them. he says enormously controversial things. his words have hoped foment a lot of anger and a lot of hate. he has said and done things for which he has refused to you a paul gize and which he did not create the political divide but he has certainly exact baited it and he has shown no it pulse to reach across the aisle. what's missed in the all of the description of that is one-on-one or in his ram eyes he can be very charmy, he can be very funny. he is very quick. and that is why -- >> rose: he's -- >> he's very interested in engaging you on the details of his live and he will usually retain some of them, not always. but he is very good for somebody where empathy doesn't seem to roll off the way we're used to it with paul tigz and i do think he's struggled with this, he does seem to be focused on
4:13 pm
whoever he's focused on. part of what's fascinating for people about that is he's a celebrity. they know him as a celebrity so it feels like the sun is shining on you. this is a description people have given to me on these rallies where he focused on them. that was a huge asset. >> rose: how long does he want to be president. >> i think before he wrote the art of the deal. >> rose: bush 41 we now know for example someone would go talk to him about being the vice president running mate. >> there's some belief he's been interested in the presidency for far longer than 1987, 88. but that is the first time clear publicly he was doing anything that looked political in that regard. but it's funny, i mean to understand him, people really do need to read the art of the deal which i don't want to sound it's a promo for. it is really all there. the first person who said that to me was newt gingrich.
4:14 pm
i had read the book already but gingrich read all of his books as a way to understand him and it was effective. but trump is very much born of a certain moment in new york city of the 19 80, 1990's and he's this strange amalgamation of ed koch and rudy giuliani, these hyper engaged hyper social different types of governing styles, mayors. ed koch is how am i doing mayor. trump does another version. >> rose: people like general mattis a law. somehow the military those guys that have done well and women as well have done well and who seem like winners. he's very attracted to and seems to give them the capacity to influence him even to make decisions on the spot. >> i think that has been the part that's been a relief to people. if you look at wins this
4:15 pm
president has had in the first hundred days there are not many that you can point to there are really protein as opposed to carbons. of these eo's in the carbon category. >> rose: nice way to put it. >> but in addition to getting the supreme court justice through, although they had turn to the senate rules, he has really empowered tillerson mattis -- >> mick master. >> mick master and kelly to a much greater degree and he has allowed himself to be influenced by them. the concern was, i mean trump isn't admiring of the military. there's almost a fetishic thing about generals. >> rose: figures of authority. >> he does. >> rose: he said the same thing about put continue and about cc and same thing about people like that. >> there was really notice and concern understandably in the campaign when he was continuing to praise authoritarians. we've never seen this in modern
4:16 pm
day -- >> rose: about fascism. >> correct. our system is not used to this, and so the concern was does somebody who has such a predeelection for making the military big and making the military grand and strength and decent characteristics, what does that mean about how he will govern and really not that much. with foreign policy he has governed -- >> rose: because he chose people that reflected that point of view. and those who didn't like flynn are gone. >> well flynn is, look flynn was gone because ostensibly he lied to the president. >> rose: at the same time he had a sort of attitude about the military because he had os tensibly been fired. >> correct. and he had played to as one person in the west wing had described this to me that flynn played what they considered to be trump's worst instinct.
4:17 pm
that having been said trump and other advisors in the west wing had long ago begun to lose faith in flynn well before the issue and lying to the president. >> rose: how did they lose faith. >> they felt he was erratic and controlling. frankly some of the same reasons that obama's advisors have complained with him. there was an incident when he was working on the transition, flynn's son became a problem and had to be fire and the president doesn't like firing people despite the you're fired tag line. the president doesn't like absorbing negative press because of other people. there's a lot of things flow this way. >> rose: don't bring your rain on to me. >> correct. regardless whether he brings rain on to other people, he doesn't want their rain on him. so flynn used up a couple of his lives by the time he was down. >> rose: here's what intrigues me about him. he is constantly reaching out by
4:18 pm
phone and by personal conversation, whatever the means, to ask people what do you think of this, what do you think of that, what should i do. and that's married with what he sees on television and what he sees on television informs him. those are his primary means of absorbing information and intelligence i'm asking that. >> no, it's the truth. i'm actually trying to process and add to what you said, if what you said is correct. one of the things that was challenging for his national security brief early on was getting him to absorb briefing and then to the table and then to the opening the book. and he requested a change where the presentations would have lots of charts and graphs. that's what he prefers, as i said before, he likes the visual piece. >> rose: part of his -- >> he sees the degree to which sort of robert costa had a great
4:19 pm
line once, i forget who said it to but trump is television. there is something to that. it really all kind of flows through him. he sees things in terms of how it will play on a medium. and for him, the quickest way to absorb something is almost through like the sheen it leaves, the residue it leaves. so he prefers television and he prefers conversation. he had, he does deserve some credit with this. it's not that he went half cocked in syria. you can have a conversation about obama's syria policy but that's not going to do much about the future. >> rose: in this case there was so many people around the world have said for god sakes somebody do something because this is a crime against
4:20 pm
humanity. >> it's funny. for the president having two different positions about syrian refugees in 2015. at one point he said in the interview i think it was with bill owe reilly saying you had to let in the refugees. he had a quick refuriousal within a few days or weeks saying no i didn't mean that. >> rose: he feared some sense someone would come in and do something terrible. >> convinced there was too much political danger taking that position when you were running very far to the right in a primary where you had to hang on to your base. the way to influence him to the point about visual, what he does respond to is if you tell him numbers, that tends not to move him the same way although i think anybody is moved by the number 400,000 deaths in a civil war. but he's moved by images. so the way to move him, people have said to me repeatedly is,
4:21 pm
showing him something. the images of his refugees, particularly these young children, particularly people in the migrant crises and children were drowning. i think he was responsive to that and then he changed. the question is, does he come back to that. >> rose: that's a little bit of ronald reagan. >> that's exactly right. there are similarities there. look, there are many difference, reagan among other things had been a governor. >> rose: he had four specific goals. he really understood how to keep the focus on one, two, three, four things. >> that's right. >> rose: build up the military, rules the debt. >> he came in with sort of a map what he wanted to do. so did bill clinton. bill clinton was much more centrist and not ideological the way trump came in but i never really had a clear sense of what trump wants to do other than sticking broadly to the theme he's been speaking about trade and other countries ripping us
4:22 pm
off. >> rose: that's what amazes me too. two questions, one, did he come to some of these views because it was for him to the whitehouse because he had been a democrat, he had been all over the political map and endorsed people that the republican party, certainly the right and the republican party would find that, that's one question. another question is how much of this has he really believed for a long time. i think china is one example of that. >> that's right. china is definitely one example of that. more broadly that nato members are not paying their fair share in the free rider issue, we actually heard him talk. >> rose: same about south korea just yesterday. >> absolutely. that harkened back he didn't quite say it during the campaign, the editorial board or my colleague david sanger and me but he did have the general concept that the u.s. is everyone's policeman. i think he felt that way broadly for a long time. it's easy to make that statement but it doesn't mean anything if
4:23 pm
you're not explaining what your areas of the case is and what your areas of emphasis should be and what areas of emphasis needs to be built all and the need for intich vention. the problem with trump during the campaign he has this speaking style and this has been getting himself in trouble al they he's been doing it less so. some it is by design not by accident. like the drain speaking style where he ends up in every bit around the bowl. at any different point in an interview that david sanger and i did with him about foreign policy and the campaign you could have come away thinking he was an interventionist or an isolationist. you just took the quote on their own because term contradictory. so i think he has this sort of set of base, i don't mean political base, impulses. but it's almost like it's not particularly well defined, you don't know exactly what it means. i don't know if he exactly knows
4:24 pm
what it means other than as a feeling. >> rose: he also seems to believe as other politicians have, if you put me in a room by myself with xi jinping. >> that's exactly right. there's a level of hubris to him, obama did the same thing. this president said something pretty similar. it does not work that way. he was very struck this week when he, i mentioned before about the jaw dropping quote. it was something that was seemingless now but striking for a president and especially a president in the first hundred days where he talked about how hard this is. it's really striking, much more work than his old job. a because he never actually does anything close to admitting vulnerability or frailty so that was striking. and there was an aspect of it that was sort of you know what, he's at least acknowledging that
4:25 pm
this is tougher than he had believed. the question is then what he does with that. but i can also understand why people would find it disquieting for a president to say. >> rose: they all say there's no particular skill, there's nothing that really prepares you for this job and when you get there what they'll say what's amazing in the white house is the rise to the oval office. the other stuff is before it gets to president. >> he doesn't turn off the at's part of the problem. he's also, look, i think that's all true. i think the problem is that other presidents have been certainly modern presidents have been much more mindful of the impact of their word in this office. and he continues to sort of seem almost like this minor league who got called up and is figuring out exactly how this works. >> rose: learning on the job. >> i think so. >> rose: he has to if he's changing position. he's changing position because of new facts, new intelligence. >> i think there's been a change
4:26 pm
at his level. i think it is sometimes two steps forward and two steps back or one step forward and two steps back. that tweet he put out earlier believing his office had been dugged or whatever it was, trump tower had been bugged. that was tweet was a dangerous experience for him because they spent the whole government basically ground to a halt from three weeks trying to reverse engineer justification for that tweet. and there are other issues -- >> rose: going in search of something that would indicate -- >> even if it wasn't -- it wasn't exactly what he said it was close enough because that's what people believe. >> rose: then susan rice came forward. >> he said look this is what i meant. that actually quickly disappeared because syria happened and syria happened the evening of that interview that susan rice gave where she says i didn't leak anything. although she did acknowledge some unmasking although she said
4:27 pm
this is part of the job and sort of nothing unusual or nefarious has been done. there is a bigger debate that i think is important and significant about the way in which intelligence is used. that is part of the whole edward snowden debate has been about for sell years but that can't be justifying for turning an investigation into whether there was collusion between russian officials trying to influence the 2016 election and the trump campaign. to be clear there's not been proof of anything but that is what this is all about. so i think the president finally came to realize just based on the reporting, i'm not speculating here. i've been told he came to realize that 2456s, he had bitten off a bit more than he could chew. >> rose: when did he realize do you think? >> about right before syria. and then i think after syria he has been a bit more sober. he has seemed less frustrated.
4:28 pm
he has seemed less aggravated. i think he's very lonely at the whitehouse. >> rose: that's my next question that came up while you were saying that. what's 2 hours with donald trump like. when does he go to bed, who is there in terms of around the whitehouse, does he have an aide there or have they gone home to their suburban homes. his family, his wife is not there most of the time. she's in new york. >> they speak every day. >> rose: of course. >> no, no, i just mean she's actually a very influential presence. >> rose: she is. explain that because i think most people don't know that. >> people i think are confused with her disinterest in the lime light is shyness. she's not shy. he's just not interested. she's a model, she's mrs. trump, she's been inside magazines. it's not interesting to her. she's pretty self assured in my experiences with her and she's
4:29 pm
really focused on raising her son. so i think that's her life. but what she does do is talk to him about staff moves. she does talk to him about how she's seeing television coverage play out or what's appearing in newspapers or what need back she's hearing from some friends. she often asks him to be more careful with twitter and this is an ongoing scene and she's acknowledged that publicly. as far as his day he starts out watching many hours of mork television. >> rose: three, four, five. >> between five and six. to be clear this is just based on what we're told. he watches it for a while. eventually comes and watches it in the residents, he comes down to the oval office. >> rose: around 7, 8, 9, something like that. >> he comes down to the office between 9 and 10 is my understanding unless there's an earlier meeting. there was an effort earlier on to put earlier and earlier meet, on his calendar to keep him from tuning him. keep him off twitter and keep
4:30 pm
him off cable. the problem was he would watch something like cable and he would talk back to the television on twitter, the way you would have somebody write an angry letter to the newspaper if they weren't the president. and so in this case he's the president. he would come down, do oval office events. his oval office is incredibly free wheeling. his set up, just to demonstrate, this is the resolute desk. he then put four chairs ringed around it which is exactly what he has in trump power. he did that very early on. he's got one picture behind him and that's of his father fred trump. he has no other pictures behind him. there's andrew jackson in there and so on and so forth. and then he peaks in on tv throughout the day. he generally tries to catch sean spicer's press briefing which he watches. i was going to say it's become must-see tv. throughout the day there's phone calls and meetings.
4:31 pm
usually he's done around 6 or 6:30. he's eating dinner so that takes up time. his son-in-law and his daughter eye veronica are his advisors but they have kids. jared kushner is said to be there until nine. he's alone at night and has stopped doing late night tweeting -- >> rose: i've heard and maybe through your reporting he's not tweeting but he's on the phone. >> constantly watching television. he's on the phone. he still has his old cell phone and sometimes he will make a call on it. he still tries to use a secure line as far as i understand. i believe he uses the old
4:32 pm
android for tweeting, basically. but he still talks to a lot of old friends. this is why you can't ever completely be a gatekeeper for this man because you're just never going to be able to control everything that's coming down. >> rose: is he a curious man. >> he is not an intellectually curious man that sense that he does not really read books. he does not know history particularly easily. you constantly hear him say things like who knew healthcare could be this hard. most people knew it could be this hard and certainly people who worked on it. >> rose: like bill clinton. >> exactly. or barack obama as has hillary clinton. he's curious about a certain discreet set of tonics and issues. >> rose: it's great to have you here. >> thank you for having us. >> rose: maggie haberman of the energy times and cnn. "new york times" and cnn. back in a moment.
4:33 pm
>> rose: sheila nevins is here. she was here at a time when few people knew of the premium cable channel. since then she's overseen a revolution of television documentaries bringing taxicab confessions, crimes from syria, and the jinx. on her watch hbo documentary film has garn you ared a total of 65 prime time emmy awards, 46 pee deed awards and 26 academy awards. here's a look at her at work from cbs sunday morning. >> we sat in on a session for a new documentary nevins commissioned by alexandra pelosi. it's a reading of the constitution, the declaration of independence and the bill of rights. >> come on guys, this is great. >> is it true that your basic criterion is not boring. is that number one. >> absolutely. >> this is fine. i'm not bored yet. >> i'm a little bored.
4:34 pm
>> she's the patron soinlt of documentaries. >> is she really as tough as i've heard she is. >> she's honest. >> do you quake. >> you're going to hear it from her or a critic. who do you want to hear it from. >> i want to get it from the -- >> there's no softening the blow. >> rose: she has a new book called you don't look your age and other fairy tales. it is, she says, either an expose, a memoir or an obituary your -- i'm pleased to have sheila nevins back at this table. welcome. it's been a while. why did you decide to write this and what is this. >> it's a sort of fly memoirs.
4:35 pm
there's imagery characters and sheila. i don't know it's things i never talked about. it's hard to get a woman that's getting older that's working. it's hard to have once been sassy and very pretty. and suddenly see everything disappearing. aging and women are so incredibly destructive to keeping it going. >> rose: you wanted to write about this because these were things you thought about, wrote about and cared about. >> yes because i was afraid of age and i knew many women they could say anything, they could talk about affairs, they could talk about kids ailments but they couldn't talk about how old they were. >> rose: listen to this. here's some of the people who read. audrey mcdonald, meryl streep, diane von furstenberg, floor yeah steinem, lesley stahl. you think they care about it too. or some of them willing to age gracefully and live with it?
4:36 pm
>> i think every single one of these women, maybe diane is an exception, a european she can carry with her. everyone is concerned with losing what they have because they're aging. that's the face lift and botox and that's what we all fall for. i have a line in the book about the sales woman says to me you look young in that, makes a sale. horrifying. >> rose: are you happy you did these things you did in order to make sure that you look like you feel. >> yes. >> rose: you're happy. they're saying go. >> they're saying go because it's true. it's hard to be truthful about certain things. i decided not to anyone. i'm simply old but i'm not student, i'm not senile, i'm not walking with a walker. >> rose: and the spirit you
4:37 pm
have is the same as the spirit you had when you walked into hbo many years ago except you have more power and money. >> i have more money. i have as much power, i'm still a woman you know. i would say i am much more efficient about ideas than i kwr50d to be-- used to be. i had to stay up all night because of one word. when was it too late or early to call the producer. why hadn't i told him or her beforehand. now i can sleep. i don't agonize as much. >> rose: beyond aging, beyond death. there's one story that's called the giant named turette. talk about that turette syndrome. >> i'll cry. my son has turette. in my generation, i was afraid to do anything that women would
4:38 pm
do. i was afraid to say i have to leave to take my son to the doctor. i was afraid to say, you know, i'm traveling somewhere to find some new medication. i would say, i can't be here because of da da da da. it was impossible to be a woman and a mother in the workplace. because you want to play an equal game. and guys don't say i'm going home to take my kid to the doctor. have you ever heard a man say that in the workplace? >> rose: no. >> my son is 37 years old, so i'm talking about a culture of 30 years ago when the kid was seven or eight you did not dare say that. a man did not dare say that. first there were not that many women in the workplace at that level 30 years ago. >> rose: what makes you cry about david, your son, having turette's syndrome the fact about you or about hip. >> interesting question.
4:39 pm
maybe a little of both if i'm really truthful. angry because i had to care for him so much of the time. and sad because he was bullied and life was so difficult for him. and i felt -- >> rose: the pain he felt because of it. >> i didn't know the pain but i felt it. i would never know somebody's else's pain but i felt pain on his behalf. >> rose: there's another advice to women in male dominated workplace. a list comprising a list of rules by a former vice president in a leading -- >> if it's an anonymous story it has nothing to do with me charlie, it has to do with an anonymous woman. >> rose: is it in the book. >> it's in the book. >> rose: then we can talk about it. >> you're tough. >> rose: a list of rules written by a former -- >> yes. >> rose: what are the rules, do you remember. >> laugh at jokes that aren't funny. >> rose: please your bosses.
4:40 pm
>> say i never thought of that even though you thought of it before. never say you're taking your kids to the doctor, always say you have an appoint outside the office. never be a mother, never be a woman. be a guy. >> rose: you're writing a poem called mentor you ask. tell me about that. >> i don't think it's a poem, it's a story about do you know how everybody always says who is your mentor. >> rose: yes. >> did you have a mentor. >> rose: sure. i did. >> well my mentor was revenge, does that sound horrible. because i'm such a sweet pea. >> rose: you want to get revenge. >> once again person. >> rose: was that a life -- >> no, i'm not a macbethian kind of character, but i was rejected at yale. >> rose: tell us. you went to yale. >> i went to bernard majored in english and went to yale and
4:41 pm
majored in directing at the drama school. i was in a moot court thing at the yale law school and i felt sort of wildly madly in love with a harvard law student who was there. >> rose: sure. >> madly, madly. i think that happens once, you think? >> rose: it certainly happens once. i would like to think it happens more than once. >> i think it probably happens once. so i went to this young man's house and i had to meet his mother. she was a very blue blood person, i was not. i was the daughter of a postal clerk and a communist mother, card holding. she said to me very clearly aren't there any interesting jewish men for you at the law school here. and i never saw him again. and she has really been a mentor in many ways. the pain motivated me to show her i could do it. is that odd. do you think i need a
4:42 pm
psychiatrist. >> rose: well, you know what i think about all of that. whatever gets you through the night is good. >> what about the day. >> rose: the day too. there's a poem about your friend larry framer. >> love of my life. >> rose: great friend of this show as you know. >> i certainly do. >> rose: can i read the poem. i had to know him to choose film segments of his life. he was sick and in hospital so i forced myself to make bedside visits. this led to an adoration of this gay icon who survived all the vul gairities of a lifer transplant hiv and 891 years of passionate living. your homage to larry framer.
4:43 pm
he had no fear. >> none. >> rose: of embarrasment. >> none, none. >> rose: he was presented to say this is what i believe in and i will do everything i can to bring it to your attention. >> and he was presented to say you're not doing enough. i mean that is a great thing to be able to say. he's a hero. i have to mentor. i have a gay hero, i have a husband i have a job and i'm on your show. what else could anyone want. >> rose: you have hit the all. so tell me about today. is it today because of the explosion of hbo and original programming, and other places now and streaming and all of that. how is it different for you? or is it just better and more opportunities because there are more vehicles. >> i would say it's more
4:44 pm
difficult to stand out in a crowd. >> rose: there's so much. >> there's so much product and it makes your selection of product much more specific. and you have to save yourself and watch this, am i talking to myself. there was a time when you're the only kid on the block you're the best kid on the block but with a lot of kids on the block you got to play a different kind of ball. i think that i fight harder for standout products and projects. >> rose: did you ever want to be on -- >> don hewitt asked me to be on camera and it terrified me because i didn't really -- i didn't think i would be good at it. >> rose: you didn't care -- >> no. but i remember him saying you're the only one who turned me down. i said i'm not comfortable. i were e about what i look and
4:45 pm
what i said. >> rose: do you like or dislike narrators. >> i don't like narrators. i don't like anything in between the story and the viewer. i think that the story should talk directly -- there's something wrong. that doesn't mean we don't put cards in or tell you what date is or where you're going we're not furious in that way but i really don't feel -- i feel that the viewer is invited as the narrator so to speak to put the pieces together themselves. i always felt that way. i always felt narrator was intrusive. >> rose: the biggest test for you was does it bore you. >> yes. don't you. >> rose: well of course i do. i also want to know if it excites me, if it's compelling to me. >> that's the opposite of being boring. >> rose: what have you missed that you don't have. >> that's a good question. what have i anied any -- missei
4:46 pm
don't have. >> rose: you had children, you had career, you had money, you had friends, you have respect. >> yes. >> rose: all that. >> time. time. more time. more time. >> rose: you think sometime is slipping away. >> yes. >> rose: you know you're on the other side. >> you know you're on the other side you just count backwards. they show a picture that's 102 years old, i don't want to be that person. even if i made it to 102, i don't want to be there. time is so precious, it's a cliche but i've wasted a lot of time worrying about one word, one sentence, cut back cuts. you have too? it's horrifying. >> rose: i know. >> it's like the metronome. >> rose: i don't know of anybody that doesn't sort of agonize. there's nobody that's good at what they do hat doesn't really
4:47 pm
agonize over it. now they may limit the agony to it over a limited period of time and knowing that another 25 hours might not make it that much better or make you any more sure. but everybody i think who cares is always agonizing is this the right choice or not. because making films is a series of choices. >> yes, it is. >> rose: that's what it's about. >> yes. >> rose: this actor or that actor, this story, that story. >> when i was here 15 years ago it was the same table and same chairs but we're not the same, are we. >> rose: no. >> see. >> rose: if you don't look your age then there are fairy tales. the one and only sheila nevins. back in a moment. stay with us. >> rose: jonathan demme is the oscar winning director of such films like silence of the lambs and philadelphia died in his home in new york city. he was 73. he came up in an air awe of low
4:48 pm
budget feasmsz learning his# joy
4:49 pm
jonathan demme became a filmmaker. >> i adored movies so much as a kid right away. i remember the first scene from a hop along cassidy movie with my first encounter with the television set instantly hooked and then seen moves like treasure island and going all the time and all the time. some of how i want to be a veterinarian but i bombed out of chemistry and i wound up writing movie reviews for the college pain. >> rose: here's what they said about you. you kept a notebook. between the first movie you saw all the way through college. every movie you kept a little personal review as to when you saw it, who you saw it with and what the movie was about and whether you liked it or not. >> and a star rating too, charlie. you've been digging deep haven't you. >> rose: there is a lot of
4:50 pm
stuff i want to talk b you got out and started making movie reviews. your father -- >> a family hotel at miami beach. >> rose: then big joe levine comes down there from embassy picture. and your father introduces you and you showed him a review of your film zulu. >> mr. levine told my dad your son's a critic bring the review to the house boat which was across the street and i showed up one day with my little scrapbook of clippings. i had favorably reviewed zulu and he literally with a cigar poked me and said you got good taste, kid. you can come work for me. i went into the service for a while, came out and called up and he gave me a job. suddenly i was working in the movie business, which was ridiculous. i couldn't believe that i could actually -- >> you had no dream to be a director. >> none whatsoever. >> rose: you were happy to be a publicist. >> yes, i loved it. then i met roger courtman and he was starting world pictures and
4:51 pm
he needed scrims. he said to me jonathan you write press releases why don't you write a motorcycle movie. i came up with my friend joe who is the greatest storyteller i ever met, we wrote a script and i showed it to roger. he said this is pretty good joe, you direct commercials. yes. i tell you what, joe, you direct and tom you can produce it. suddenly we're like 24 years old or something like that and we're off to california to make our motorcycle movie. >> rose: corman gave guys -- >> that's one of his greatness. roger is an extraordinary amazing great guy that you could ever come across. >> rose: what makes him that. >> it's the oprah winfrey thing i think a little bit. he's got tremendous enthusiasm and also a big ego and a desire to succeed. and i love about roger one of the many things he's so quotable and one of the things he used to
4:52 pm
tell the new directors, he would say now listen as a director, you're 40, 45% artist and 65% businessman. never forget that. you've got to be a businessman. people are going to invest money in your movies and you've got to repay that investment. he said if you get carried away you'll find yourself out of work. >> rose: when silence of the lambs came to you, did you have some sense of this movie was going to become what it did? did you know because of the hopkins performance, because of jody's performance, because of the script you had there, that this had all the potential to be one of the classic american films. >> i was, i knew it had the potential to be a splendid movie. i knew ted wrote where a great
4:53 pm
script from a great great great book. tom harris is such an extra writer and i knew we had a great cast. and i knew -- was going to work his magic. i was confidence we were going to have a terrific picture. when you're making these things, all you know is, all i know is the one thing that my movies have in common is i've always been really excited by their potential as movies. and the belief that if we can make a movie that winds up exciting other people as much as the potential exsites me, maybe it will be contagious. sometimes people ask me well what's the common link in your movies or what have you. the only common link in the movies for me is i have loved the source material. i've loved the source material because it's been my view beautifully written. and whether that's the humor of married to the mob for me or the extraordinary human tapestry of
4:54 pm
beloved or what was in the script of philadelphia or the certain kind of america as we approach the millennium. the writing has been exceptional. when you make a movie you've got to live with these things for two years if you're the director. it's a long process and it's got to continue to feed you and it's got to continue to interest you in order to be able to really kind of deliver something worthy of all that effort. >> rose: you were going to say something about talkie -- >> i was thinking of that as a rocky performance. i made a couple documentaries about haiti and my cousin who is a big troublemaker in new york. >> rose: what would you do if you didn't make movies. >> open a bookstore. maybe even open a movie theatre and show movies. but i love making films, and -- >> rose: the joy is? >> one of the joins is getting together with a whole community
4:55 pm
of extraordinarily gifted people. and pooling your ideas and your efforts together with a collective goal of making something extremely special for people to look at. >> rose: jonathan demme died at age 73. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org
4:56 pm
>> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. >> you're watching pbs.
4:57 pm
4:58 pm