hello and welcome to kqed newsroom. i'm thuy vu. coming up on our program an anchor joins us to talk about politics and media. plus enounced french chef and tv personality jock le pen returns to kqed to talk about his career celebrating the love of cooking. but today more lawmakers talk about the possibility of impeaching the president. they both say it's time to look at the process for removing trump from office. meanwhile, cnn is reporting white house lawyers have begun researching impeachment procedures. this capped the week of bombshell political developments. on monday "the washington post"

reported that president trump had disclosed highly classified intelligence information to russian envoys during a white house meeting last week. then on tuesday came the explosive news that president trump had urged the fbi director james comey to end the federal investigation of michael flynn before he fired comey last week. on wednesday the justice department names former fbi director robert mueller as special counsel to lead the probe into russian meddling into the 2016 presidential race. joining me now with analysis are uc berkeley political professor steven fish, and cory shocky joining us from stamford university campus. he left today for his foreign trip for nine days. he recently wrote an article entitled the bombshell of donald trump's liabilities. can you explain that?

>> yeah, i think the domestic turmoil of how the president is choosing to do his job creates three kinds of problems for him internationally. the first is the allies are nervous. they don't know what to expect. they're accustomed to the united states being a calming force internationally, not a disruptive one. and so allies are worried about whether they should be hedging their bets against him. and that's not actually in america's interest. the second cost his behavior is imposing is allies not wanting to associate themselves with the president that seems not to be an ard want supporter of the rule of law. and so you see, for example, german chancellor andrea merkel inviting former president obama to germany, to berlin to speak right in advance of the nato summit because to associate herself with the united states

than a different kind of way than the pictures coming out in the brussels summit that president trump will give her in a run up to an election in germany. and the third way the president's behavior is becoming an international liability is because the united states gains a lot of support for what we try to do internationally because we exemplify the values of a free society. and i think in a lot of places, particularly in europe and north america where america's closest allies are, that they are nervous about whether we are continuing to be an example that people in the world want to emulate. >> and then steve, you're in moskow right now writing a book on rush afor americas. and is that the perspective you're seeing on the ground in russia? do average russians feel -- how do they feel about america right now. >> well, you have to remember

this is probably the only country in the world where trump is actually admired and he's por troyed well in the russian press. the reason is that russian leadership thinks he could be a transformational leader who could lead the united states down a very different path. they have this view of being seeing both parties as being hostile to russia, hostile to russia at the table and trump seems be different. in addition to saying nice things about putin he doesn't seem to be terribleably committed to democracy. and doesn't stapd up as cory pointed out in her remarks for traditional values. the problem is that putin and his associates like most other foreign leaders, want an american leader who at least is stable, who is a little bit predictable and trump is not giving that to them. so they're sticking with him right now, hoping he'll be the

kind of leader that can lead the united states out of what they regard as this kind of idealistic global pro-dumachyeracy stance that's something more the real political type they like. where hopefully in their view the united states will kind of let them be the policeman. theatoryatories in russia will come under the russian sway. trump because he's so not committed to democracy, not committed to western alliance and because they think he actually has a more pro-russian attitude, there's been a lot of praise of trump here. >> i want to also -- since you're there, i want to also get to the issue of possible russian interference in the 2016 presidential election and kind of get that perspective from russia as well. are you learning anymore about possible collusion? >> i'm not learning much more about possible collusion.

this is not the kind of thing you would hear on the ground here. this would be very secret stuff. certainly the interference in the election is something that russian leaders will admit to you over a beer. this is something they're proud of, i mean the idea that russians are denying this happened is nonsense. of course publicly putin denies it, but when you get them over beers they'll say, yeah, we got you. some of putin's people regards this as pay back for all the interference they think the united states does in their affairs and particularly in russia. the united states supported the l team government in the 1990s and see the americans as interfering thane their affairs. so they see this as sort of pay beck back. that's the perspective here. >> when he fired james comey, it was only the second time an fbi director has been fired in the nation's history. so what kind of impact do you

think this will have on the fbi and the nation? >> yesterday the announcement that former director mueller is being appointed as special counsel to look into these things is an enormously reassuring decision by the deputy attorney general. but i think there is a general sense that the checks and balances in the american political system are certainly being put to the test. and the good news is they appear to be passing the test. and that's an important message for the united states to be sending in the world, that the difference between russia and the united states is that president putin and president trump may have the same kind of authoritarian reflexes, but the institutions and the vibrancy of civil society and the tenaciousness of the american

media creates a different kind of outlook in the united states than we see in russia. and that's something to be greatful for in the united states, but it requires constant vigilance and institutions like the fbi and the attorneys general and the media to continue keeping a very close, very suspicious eye. >> and steve, how does this compare to watergate? are there signs of obstruction of justice here? >> of course there are. when he fires comey, who is the director of the fbi, obviously because he's concerned he's digging in a little too deep, many people would regard that -- i certainly do -- as obstruction of justice. perhaps not in the stricter sense, but it's certainly a step in that direction that this is clearly a case of the president trying to interfere in the operations of an agency that presidents traditionally do not interfere with. trump does not seem to see any of these lines that other presidents do, nor does he try

to consult counsel. other presidents don't do this because they know these rules. trump doesn't have a clue. >> you did not support president trump during the amcane pain. from president trump disclosing classified information to the james comey fallout, how disruptive is it? >> i think it's enormously disruptive. it's very hard to be able to keep party discipline, to be able to have, for the president, to have the political capital to encourage members of congress to make tough votes and to show he can protect them if they do when there's this kind of tum alt tht the president himself keeps setting off. that's certainly true. but we're finding out some very disappointing things about it. for the republican party and its leaders to continue to standby

this guy, really raises the question of what the republican's policy oon loyalty to country the. it's really looking much more like the anteliberal parties in europe right now than dedicated to democracy as traditionally the republican party has been. i think that's the bigger story. and also the civil society and also the fbi, the democracy really matter a lot more. the opposition, of course, matters a lot more right now. but none of this would be as big of a problem if the republican leaders showed the least bit responsibility and concern with the united states. right now they're just not doing that. >> and cory, you get the last word on this. what do you have to say to what steve just said? >> well, i think a lot of the concerns including myself are

raising are concerns about norms and traditions, not about breech of law. and until breech of law is proven, i think republicans are going to try to keep moving their conservative agenda forward under this president. >> thank you both, uc berkeley steve fish and cory shocky. >> my pleasure. and turning now to an acclaimed journalists who has observed this nation's politics for five decades. bill lawyers, a long time tv host and had made numerous dumaries on this network. he was a policy advisor and then press secretary from president lyndon b. johnson. his latest documentary examines one of the worst jails in america and airs this month. it's delightful to have you in our studio. >> i'm pleased to be here. >> i want to ask you about rob

mueller. how significant is that move? >> you could not have picked a man with greater credibility among the fbi agents with whom he once served and whom he once lead with democrats and republicans who respected his integrity when he was testifying and working back in the day he was fbi director or with the general public. i think there's a perception this is a man we can trust with this incredible challenge. >> obstruction of justice, do you think there's a basis for that here? >> it's too early. i suspect there is from the behavior of the president and from the stories that have come out. but before you begin impeachment proceedings you need to really have the evidence. and that's what i think we will now get as mueller as head of the independent counsel and from comey himself when he is finally called to testify. which other journalists and

friends of mine, other fbi agents tells me he wants to do. >> what about his tenure as press secretary in the white house and linden b. johnson, it's been five decades since you've done that. and how would you say the role has involved over time? we watched sean spice, and sometimes you feel sorry for the guy. >> well, it was a long time ago. and it was only two years as press secretary. my first two years i was responsible for domestic policy. he drafted me against my will. >> you did not want that job. >> no, i loved what i was doing, working on the civil rights act, the voting rights act, and the second education bill. i loved all that substantive work. the press secretary role was very difficult, and i was afraid my credibility was such i couldn't believe my own leaks, because i would get caught in traps. i often didn't just say i don't

know but tried to fudge an answer. my father, when i became a press secretary, sent me a telegram. bill, tell the truth if you can but if you can't tell the truth, tell allie. and sometimes i fell into a questionable area. it was never intentional. but it was very difficult. johnson was a different man from trump. although, he has some characteristics, paranoia, the press, ego. he wanted us to relate the important information to it press, and there were far fewer media outlets and more traditional media outlets. you've got the conservative press, right-wing press, breitbart. >> how can we as journalists

combat fake news. >> most people if confronted by fact that suverts their belief symptoms, if it challenges their belief system, they will not change what they believe in order to acknowledge the fact. why? because our belief systems sustain us day by day. our religious views, our political bias, our understanding of science. we stick with our belief system, which supports us in a very turbulent world, and facts can be very disturbing. facts can upset your world view. and unless you have the strength within and the assurance of the material, of the information, you tend to cling to what gives you solace, what gives you comfort, what gives you a way of being in the world that's so changing so rapidly that you can hold onto who you are and what you think. that's human nature, but we have to keep as journalists being so insis tpt that what we're doing

is grounded in evidence of reality, that people in time learn to change their belief systems to fit the reality. >> you were accused in the past of being liberal biased, leaning too left. and now we have a situation with the trump administration where once again those types of accusations are being leveled against the media. do you see similarities here? >> we are constantly bombarded not only by information but by propaganda. every ad we've seen on television or in the newspaper, it's propaganda. it's telling what benefits the buyer of the advertiser, by the advertiser. journalism is much the same way. my complaint with left wing journalist or right wing journalism is it arranges the facts to fit the ideology. both of them do. but conservatives have developed a fast machine for propaganda. i've paid a lot of attention, done documentaries on it. what they do is organize their event, the information to

perpetuate their propaganda. i cannot consider them journalists, because journalism is about getting us to verifiable truth. >> how can we do a better job of that, though? because we have machinery now, the fox network, and roger ailes passed away this week. and but they're saying the same things trump is saying about the media. so how do you fight that? >> you know an organization that has developed a culture of harassment of other people, women, immigrants, whoever, an organization whose character is formed by a tolerance for humiliating other people and harassing other people cannot be trusted to deliver the news. you cannot separate the integrity of your broadcast from the integrity of your employees.

bill o'reilly came after me time and again with a pack of lies. i kept calling him and writing him and saying come on my program and discuss this, let's have an honest discussion about what you're saying. he would never do it. he was a bully hiding in his bunker at fox news and roger ailes created a series of impenetrable bunkers of people who are attacking the rest with impunity. >> wasn't it to a conservative viewpoint? >> absolutely. i see nole conservative principles operating within fox news. i see a constructive tendency and a bullying that goes within and without. >> i wanted to ask you about the odd utby the chair of the corporation in broadcasting back in 2004. and basically a company was hired to analyze political guests including your show. he was looking for liberal bias. how did you respond at that

time? >> well, i am a liberal. i am because i believe we can do more collectively together to improve democracy than we can individually, that we need to work together. and i am a liberal. i served in two democratic administrations, the johnson and kennedy administration. but a liberal and democratic like a republican and conservative can still do justice to the integrity on the news. i believe our job as journalists is to get the oddgence as close as possible to the verifiable truth. and this gentleman was partisan republican, very loyal to carl rove and did not like what i was reporting. i was trying to tell what was happening in iraq after the war in arock. i was trying to pull-on people who had a different opinion than the official reality. >> i don't want to let you before asking you about your new documentary. it's called riekers in american jail. it's about the new york city

jail. we hear directly about the men and women who have been incarcerated. why did you decide to make this film the. >> because mass incarceration has become a scandal, a failure, and stain on american democracy. mass incarceration has become the sharp edge of racism in this country. it falls most heavily on people of cull, people who are poor, and upon young men in particular. african-americans in this country are six times as likely to be arrested as whites. his pannenics in this country are twice as likely to be arrested than whites. it's also become an assault on the principles of fair play and humanity. we are on the way to criminal justice reform before the last election. and now president trump and attorney general sessions have, in effect, started the war on drugs again with so many people in prison. they have the philosophy you lock them up and throw away the

key. so we're regressing on this very important practice of democracy. >> one of the lines that stand out for me in that documentary is near the top when you have one on the inmates saying as you get to the jail it's like entering the belly of the beast. and it was so memorable. bill lawyers thank you so much. the documentary air ons kqed on monday at 9:00 p.m. we appreciate so much your taking the time to be here with us. >> thank you for this opportunity. everyone says i can't cook, i don't have time to cook. all you need is organization. >> that's a clip of french chef and cooking show host of jock le pen. in 1990 he launched his television career here at kqed. since then he's starred in lls a dozen other tv series at kqed. now a new masters documentary explores how he has helped

changed cooking in america. it prumeres next friday at kqed. we spoke with jock le pen earlier. >> jock le pen, what a wonderful pleasure. thank you for joining us. >> thank you for having me. >> where's the chicken? i was hoping to see a deboned chicken. well, this documentary has so many marvelous details that will surprise a lot of people of people who are familiar with you based on so many cooking shows you've been on over the years. i didn't realize you had cooked for the head of state in france. >> yeah, someone said to me a while ago that man cooked for three heads of state and now they're dead. >> yes, but they ate well. you cooked in new york. the kennedy white house asked you to cook for them. yet you chose to go work for howard johnson.

>> right. >> why? >> well, if you look at it in the concept of the time, that time the cook was very low on the social scale. the cook was in the kitchen. so it was another world altogether. so when i was asked to go to the white house, i did not realize the potential or whatever. and i had done it, was in new york and howard junsen on the other end would learn about predictions, marketing, american eating habuts, all kinds of things i didn't know anything about. so it was a great -- and i studied there for ten years may 16th to may 17. >> i thought we might play a little clip from the documentary to show what it was like for you to walk into a grocery store.

>> the first time we entered the market. i remember going there and saying i am fine, i am fine with canned mushrooms. >> i can't even imagine what that might have looked like to you. >> yes, lobster, rack of lamb, so very, very expensive in france. that's why people learn how to do stew. the stew was very fancy. but it was very expensive. >> trade-offs, i suppose. but it does seem as if culture, we are just obsessed with technology. today, of course, we see it in different formats, silicon valley start-ups offering one click shopping. someone else is making your produce. what do you make of that.

>> i remember going with my mother when i was a kid to the market and my two brothers would help carry the stuff. everything was organic. it was before people didn't have fungicide or insecticide. everything was local, organic, simple. sole we're going back to that, going to all that time. and it's very fascinating to see what's going on with young chefs and all that. so the super market, have never been more beautiful than today. you talk about the variety, and mean in new york there's 24,000 restaurants. so the kind of restaurants there are, it's the most exciting food in the world i think is in american right now. >> this conversation would not be complete if we didn't play at least one click of you and julia

childs. >> today we're going to do souffle. and as everyone knows the heart of a good suplay is? >> egg whites, beaten egg whites. >> we're going to see if you're faster than the machine. okay. 1, 2, 3, go. >> you guys were such a great pair. >> it's fun. that's what people ought to realize. cooking is fun, cooking is being together. cooking is enjoying life, cooking eating, always part of what humans do. >>, you know, there you are playing at thep idea of competing, right, the machine versus the man with a whisk. things have gotten so much more competitive these days. >> yes. i don't think competition for me is a good word in the kitchen. but there's a great deal of love that you do in your cooking. >> what's your perfect meal for

tonight? >> bread and butter. >> bread and butter. oh, julie would approve. >> it has to be bread and butter when it's really great bread and butter. >> thank you so much for talking with us today. >> thank you for having me. i'm delighted to be here. >> i'm hungry now. that's it for us. next week we have a special encore program, bay area innovators people changing the way we love, play, and feed the hungry. thime thuy vu. thank you for watching.

>> back-to-back bombshells. a white house official is named a person of interest in the russian meddling probe. and why did president trump boast to kremlin officials that he fired f.b.i. director, james comey? i'm robert costa. we'll tackle it all, tonight on "washington week." >> did you at any time urge former f.b.i. director james comey in any way, shape or form to close or to back down the investigation into michael flynn? and also, as you look back -- >> no. no. next question? >> president trump eager to move on, calls the ongoing russia investigation a witch hunt, slamming the appointment of robert mueller as special counsel. >> i think it divides the country. i think we have a very divided country because of that and many other things. >> while congress is divided...