>> back-to-back bombshells. a white house official is named a person of interest in the russian meddling probe. and why did president trump boast to kremlin officials that he fired f.b.i. director, james comey? i'm robert costa. we'll tackle it all, tonight on "washington week." >> did you at any time urge former f.b.i. director james comey in any way, shape or form to close or to back down the investigation into michael flynn? and also, as you look back -- >> no. no. next question? >> president trump eager to move on, calls the ongoing russia investigation a witch hunt, slamming the appointment of robert mueller as special counsel. >> i think it divides the country. i think we have a very divided country because of that and many other things. >> while congress is divided...

mueller's appointment has generated bipartisan praise. >> i think it was perfectly appropriate to do that. >> the action shows the urgency of investigating trump-russia possible collusion and interference in our election. >> there is no collusion between certainly myself and my campaign, but i can always speak for myself and the russians, zero. >> meanwhile, rod rosenstein, the man who appointed mueller, and wrote a memo critical of comey, briefed congress behind closed doors. >> take away -- the takeaway i have is that everything he said is that you need to treat this investigation as if it may be a criminal investigation. >> and former national security advisor michael flintstone walls a congressional committee's request. >> general flynn's lawyer said he would not honor the subpoena. that's not a surprise to the committee. >> we explore it all, with julie hirschfeld davis, of the new york times, michael scherer of time magazine, alexis

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the yuen foundation. committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities. the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you! once again, live from washington, moderator robert costa. >> good evening. just as donald trump was taking off for his first presidential trip, two big stories broke that have up-ended the white house. the new york times is reporting that president trump told russian foreign minister, sergei laf rof, that firing f.b.i. director comey, who he called a nut, relieved great pressure off him about the russia probe. the conversation was during the same oval office meeting where the president shared highly classified intelligence about isis. the washington post then broke the news that a current white house official has emerged as a significant person of interest in the russia investigation. the latest report capped an

already chaotic week and have raised questions on pennsylvania avenue not only about order but about credibility. and michael, there is this specter that hangs over this administration of russia. and its influence. but it's not just about the russia cloud. it's about what i find and in all my reporting this week, a disconnect between how president trump sees the issue and how many republicans see it, and they're alarmed. >> yes. and it's really a drama that's playing out within the president. he is incredibly, and he has been for weeks now, emotional about this issue. he feels wronged. he's telling everyone around him they're not doing enough to protect him and he is making decisions that are just not based in clear thinking. one of the parts of the new york times story today was that he told the russians, the day after he fired comey, that this russia thing is now going to go away for me, which in retrospect is a crazy thing to say. but i think he really believed, when he came back from his weekend in new jersey, and

decided he was going to fire comey, that there would be, as he said in his press conference yesterday, bipartisan support for this and that he could actually help himself in the russian investigation. that reporting actually seems to be true. and it was just so far gone from what -- the way washington works, the way we know this situation is. and i think that's because he's not comfortable yet in his position. he doesn't fully understand how washington works. he doesn't fully understand the boundaries of the presidency. and there's nothing that gets him as agitated as this allegation that there was somehow collusion between his campaign and the russians. and it has led to a series of mistakes that keep making it worse for him. >> julie, knowing that he wants to avoid the appearance of collusion, why would he, as your paper reported today, why would he tell the russians in the oval office that comey now has relieved great pressure by being fired and that he's a nut?

why would he do that? >> well, he seems to be obsessed with this issue of the legitimacy of his own presidency. and one of the things that came out in the story about what he -- the classified information that he shared with the russians was that he was essentially boasting that i have access to great intelligence. the best intelligence. and let me share what i know. and it almost feels like this was in that vein, that i've taken care of this. this was going to be a bad thing for me, but this guy was crazy, and i just took care of it. now i'm fine. but perversely, of course, by saying that, whether or not it is the case that he was trying to obstruct justice by firing jim comey, by asking jim comey before he was fired to drop the investigation of mike flynn, whether or not any of that is the case, what he has said to the russians, what is now public appears that he was trying to do that. by saying that the pressure on him was relieved, he's essentially given new life and new breath to the story line that he was trying to shut down.

by dismissing jim comey. so it's sort of all worked the opposite way for him. >> alexis, the pressure wasn't really relieved. when i was calling my white house sources today, they're alarmed by this new washington post report that someone inside of the white house, a senior official, may be part of this federal probe. >> yeah. the reason why they're alarmed and the way it was explained to me, and i think this is the first thought i had, is that the white house had been saying, arguing that all of this may have been for nothing, but it also had to do with the campaign, something in the past. now, the discussion publicly is that it involves people who are now in the government and very close to the president. so that changes the dynamic for the investigation itself, what's to come with the investigation in terms of witnesses and demanding information and documentation and perhaps interviewing the president in the future, and it also creates a new thought about how to do

communications, how to do crisis communications, because it now involves people who are under the roof with the president. >> yeah. and no question about it. the focus of bob mueller's investigation, the new special counsel that was named, will almost certainly focus on the circumstances around james comey's firing, what james comey apparently is alleging, in that conversation that he had with president trump that the president urged him to drop the investigation into michael flynn, that's going to be a key part of the investigation that has significant, very broad latitude. >> and we're gonna hear from him. >> yes, we are. we're gonna hear from james comey when he testifies now. he agreed to testify before the senate intelligence committee in an open session, after the memorial day holiday. the question is, how far will he go in his testimony? but the real concern is that for the white house, is that rosenstein's authority is sweeping. and he made that -- his

authority is sweeping, and rosenstein made that clear in conversations with house and -- house members and senators over the last two days, that his purview in this investigation, mueller's purview is as far as he wants to go. that means those conversations that occurred with james comey and around his firing, which, you know, as julie mentioned, could be potentially obstruction of justice. >> and mueller is so widely respected, he seems to separate from the congressional investigations, which are still ongoing. >> that's right. the question is, what impact will that have on the congressional probes? i was talking to lindsey graham this week, who is on one of several committees, who is looking into this issue of russia meddling. he's concerned that his judiciary subcommittee will no longer have access to key information, because it will be shut down, mueller won't tell him as much as the justice department would. the senate and house intelligence committees believe they can still look into the issue of russian meddling, but if mueller wants to interview

key witness, perhaps those witnesses may not want to talk to the house and senate intelligence committee. it's a real question about whether their roles are diminished. mueller's authority will be pretty expansive. >> michael, this flurry of stories today, those are not the only stories. you're such a student of president trump. you've interviewed him several times. there's also the lingering issue of general flynn, the former national security advisor. a grand jury has subpoenaed his business records, looking at his lobbying work, money he received from the turkish government and allies of turkey. he's stone walling. he says he doesn't want to perhaps give over those records. his lawyer says that. yet the president continues to defend flynn behind the scenes. why is that, and how much of a problem is flynn for the administration? >> two issues here. one is who knew what about flynn when, which could be a problem for the administration. the second is how the flynn issue fits into this russia anger that the president has and

whether the people around trump can mitigate that going forward. i think we know -- we can walk through all the mistakes that trump has made over the last couple of weeks. what is unclear is whether there's anyone around him who can, at this point, sit him down and say, wait a minute. if you continue to make these decisions by yourself or by talking to people outside the white house or by just talking to a couple people around you, who are really representing you in the white house, as opposed to the presidency and the institution of the presidency, then things will get worse. and flynn was a great example. trump fired flynn. but the day he fired flynn, he came out and he said, flynn's a great guy, i really like flynn. and he has never backed down from that. that was a decision where clearly the presidency, the officoffice of the white house, needed to fire flynn. he'd done too many things that were too suspicious, become too big a liability for the building. trump never bought into the decision. that tension between the presidency and the president has to be involved, if the president

is going -- has to be resolved if the president is going to get back on track. >> and where is vice president pence in all this? he seems to not always know about these decisions being made, what general flynn was up to. how is he helping the president, if at all, when it comes to russia? >> well, i don't think he is. the only question now really about mike pence is whether he is willfully sort of pushing these erroneous story lines that the white house will put out there and then walk back a minute later, or whether he's being sort of duped. being asked to say something that's not true, and he doesn't know that it's not true. it's now been three times that he's come out and said something to sort of further the administration story line on a tricky issue, only for the public to find out later that he's actually given the wrong version of events, that jim comey was not fired because of his handling of the e-mails investigation. he was fired because of the russia investigation, that the president felt that, you know, that relieved a lot of pressure on him. he went out to reporters on capitol hill and said exactly

the opposite, as did other top white house officials. and so, again, the question is, is he allowing himself to be used, or is he simply not in the loop? and neither one is a particularly good position for him to be in. but the other issue, and i think michael raises an interesting point, donald trump really sees thing in an us versus them way. and he thinks about you're either on my side, you're with me, one of my guys, or you're not. and he thinks of michael flynn as one of his guys. he still thinks of him that way. now that it's coming to light what james comey was thinking in the weeks after trump was inaugurated and he was having phone conversations with the president, being invited to dinner, having other meetings that we are only now starting to learn of, he felt that the president was trying to push him and influence him. and in a lot of ways, it seemed that he was trying to feel him out. is he with me, or is he against me? seems like he concluded he was against me and that's why

ultimately he had to go. >> alexis, when you're sit tbhg that briefing room -- in that briefing room every day, it's not just vice president who has -- it's h.r. mcmaster, white house press secretary sean spicer, are they aware of, beyond russia, the credibility gap they face with the president and many americans? >> they're well aware of it. the challenge for them is, you're between a rock and a hard place. you do or you don't. the pressure from the president himself is i need people to help explain this. he's irate about it, i need someone to cover for me. and the president gets into a mode of trying to argue, you have to get out there and say something for me. what's interesting about whether it's mcmaster or the vice president to me is, look at how many people are circling around the vice president. it's not just his staff, concerned that he has to keep that halo above his head, because they're not sure where this is going. that is one of the interesting stories to watch. >> and also politically, if the

president's credibility continues to erode, as his approval ratings continue to erode, the harder it is going to be to convince his own party to walk the plank for him on key issues. with all these controversies, there are still some huge things that he wants to try to get done. >> is health care stalled, is tax reform stalled? >> it could be. we're not quite there to say they're dead yet, but they're still trying behind the scenes to cut a deal in the senate on health care. they are at square one on tax reform. >> not even. >> not even on square one in tax reform. it's going to take a lot of presidential involvement to get this done, especially since these bills, particularly the health care bill, is so unpopular. if the president continues all these controversies, if they continue to overshadow him and he continues to get more unpopular and his credibility continues to erode, as they change their stories on all sorts of thing, this has an impact on his domestic agenda. >> on capitol hill, it wasn't just about health care and taxes

that could be affected by all this. democrats are bringing up the word impeachment and possibly moving forward with that. michael? >> yeah. we're not at the point yet where that's likely or republicans are going to sign onto that. i don't think there's even going to be a discussion of that, until we get to a point where the investigation actually comes forward and says there was a crime committed here. and then there's a discussion about that. during the campaign, we often got around this table and talked about how this was really unprecedented, we'd never seen something like this, he was making big mistakes. and he was always able to overcome them, because he was able to connect with the american people. politically, he could win with messages. the politics could matter at some point in congress. but right now, the things that are threatening him are not politics. and he doesn't seem to have internalized that. he's still trying to tweet himself out of this box in the morning and message his base. if you have a special counsel coming after you, if you have jim comey coming after you, you can't groom your way out of

that. it was so interesting, because it came after he fired b.a baha, the new york federal prosecutor. he said, he never told me why he fired me. and between the time he said keep your job and the time he said he was fired, he called me a few times. but i think trump came into office thinking he could run -- >> comey felt uneasy about how he was treated. comey tried to blend into the curtains inside of the white house, but the president still tried to embrace him. when i hear from my sources on capitol hill, republicans and democrats, and they talk about mueller, you know why they really like mueller? because comey had credibility questions with both sides. the trump administration has obvious questions about russia interference and its own role. but mueller is at least seen by most people as a steady hand here. and it reminds me, they're still searching for a new f.b.i. director. looks like lieberman is going to

be the front-runner. but the administration decided not to name that person on friday. >> well, that's interesting, because i wondered, when our story came out about what he had said to the russians in the oval office about firing comey, i know that they were given some notice for the story so that we could get a comment from them, and i had to wonder whether their decision, which was a fairly last-minute decision, they were saying all the way up until this morning that they were still hoping to name someone on friday. i wondered if it had something to do with that, that they didn't want the new story line, because i think they are looking for something of a reset with whoever they announce, to be all caught up in, you know, this backward looking, why was comey fired, was it about russia. but for sure, i think it's sort of an extraordinary circumstance, the president finds himself in. his white house now, we know, a top member of his administration in the white house is being investigated by the f.b.i. and he is now -- has now fired the f.b.i. director and is naming another one. that person is going to come in

with an enormous cloud in the midst of turmoil, following comey's firing i. >> we were talking about one of the impacts. i think it's worth reminding people that when you have a scandal like this, that is very consuming inside the west wing, things freeze. we were already talking about a president who was thinking about changing his staff. then you start thinking about making hires. and then they're getting pushback from people who don't want to come in. you've got vacancies in the executive departments and agencies, people who cannot further the agenda. so when manu is talking about what's happening on capitol hill, it's also happening inside the executive branch and government kind of freezes in a crisis. and we've seen that in the past. and you can see it inside the west wing. >> and it's gonna freeze even more as we get closer to the midterm. it's going to be harder and harder to get anything accomplished, either legislatively or administratively. and, you know, you mentioned the f.b.i. director, joe lieberman, if he does get the nod, that will still be a heavy lift.

he'll probably still get confirmed by the senate, because the republicans have the notes, but -- have the votes, but even though -- democrats are prepared to fight him. >> they're already crowing. >> they're on the record saying that. they said an overwhelming majority of their caucus will vote against him. so that could take time to get approved because of that. >> there's also a real possibility that in the coming weeks, trump loses more of the support of the people he needs around him. you saw it happen this week, the beginning of the week you had people, and last week, you had people coming out on the record, defending the reputation of the president and seeing their reputations tarnished. when the report came out about comey having written a contemporaneous memo, nobody in the white house would put their name to it. at the same time, what we got, in terms of blind quotes from west wing officials and senior administration officials, you read the words they're saying.

it's real despair. these are things you don't normally hear anyone talking about, whether names are on it or not on it. people texting their friends on the outside about how their whole life is falling apart. >> especially as they start lawyering up. >> that's probably what's happening. >> the reason these white house officials i'm speaking to don't want their name on it, they think the president could undercut them a day later with a tweet. this all overwhelms in a sense the foreign trip. he was hoping to escape the swamp during this first international trip as president. but that seems unlikely. >> first lady melania trump is traveling with the president. the nine-day trip includes stops in saudi arabia, israel and italy, where he will meet with the pope and with g7 leaders. mr. trump will also travel to brussels to meet with key nato allies. can he leave this crisis behind and actually accomplish something with this trip? >> that's the hope. but it's hard to see how. for his first foreign trip, and he hasn't even traveled much

domestically since he took office, but this is a huge, ambitious trip. he's gonna give a major speech in saudi arabia about islam, a major speech in israel. he has nine different stops. we know he doesn't particularly like being outside of his home, away from his bed and the food he's familiar with. >> i suppose they're going to give him steak with ketchup in saudi arabia? >> so he'd be under duress in this environment that he's not used to. and given the ambition of the trip and the extent of the issue, all of the world leaders he's going to be interacting with, but having this hanging over him, these two stories about, you know, all of the problems he's facing domestically at home, it's hard to see how he makes a lot of headway with this trip. and the white house officials i have spoken to in the last few days say -- they basically feel like it would be a win if there are no major incidents, no major

international incidents on this trip. that's just the reality that he's facing. >> when he goes to saudi arabia, what's his message to the muslim world? he can't erase what he said during the campaign, the muslim ban and the hard-line rhetoric. >> well, it's interesting, because he wants to give a very formable speech to describe his feeling about islam and he wants to be very encouraging. as you say, he has this background. he also wants to morph it into a discussion about judaism and christianity, because he's making stops in israel and then at the vatican. and one of the challenges is how will he talk about -- try to make the distinction between terrorism and his language, his rhetoric from the campaign and maybe pivot to talking about extremism? because he's going to be making stops that talk directly about that and how there's an alliance. he's trying to build an alliance

with middle eastern partners to fight back. rhetorically, it's going to be a nuance that i haven't seen him want to willingly exploit. >> we know one of his chief speechwriters is the former jeff sessions aide, the anti-globalist. how does steven miller write a speech that appeals to the muslim world while also staying true to his principles? he's a very ideological guy, and will he get overruled internally and will trump sound more diplomatic than even miller? >> miller will have his fingerprints all over the nato speech as well. western europe is a little, well, disquieted by miller, determining the future and the western lines. but real quickly, i don't see secretary of state tillerson having a heavy influence on this trip. but is this all about the brokering of middle east peace? >> it's definitely true that

jared has been the point person in mexico, in israel, and he's on this trip. >> thanks, everybody. we could keep going all day. [laughter] >> let me pause for a moment to extend my appreciation to everyone i met at the pbs annual meeting in san diego. and for all the good wishes and support. please know i'm very proud to be part of the public television family and i look forward to visiting many of you in the near future. our conversation is always continuing online, on the "washington week" extra, where we'll talk about the legacy of roger ailes, a controversial t.v. executive. he revolutionized cable news when he created the fox news channel and transformed conservative politics. find that at pbs.org/washingtonweek. i'm robert costa. enjoy your weekend! ♪[music]

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