>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin tonight with our continuing coverage of the manchester tear rest attack, we talk to tbri gri witte from the washington post of manchester and peter beggar enfrom cnn from washington. >> we started with sun additional suspect in custody, we're ending with eight people in custody on two different continents. you have five people now in custody, five people arrested today, in the u.k most of them here in manchester. most of them from the south manchester neighborhood where abedi had lived. but you also have two people who have been arrested in libya at the brother, younger brother of the suspect as well as the father of the suspect. and the younger brother, according to libyan authorities was, he was preeming to carry out an attack in tripoli and the authorities there in libya say they have disrupted his attack.

they say he has confessed to being part of both a plot in libya as well as to have been involved in the plot here in the u.k. and to have helped his brother to carry out the attack we saw monday night. >> rose: and we continue this evening with the astrophysicist neil degrasse tie son. his new book is astrophysics for people in a hurry. >> recent strong theoretical consideration suggest there might be such a thing as a multiverse which is this entity ot of which universes are born. so if you ask what was around before the universe, we say there would be this throbbing, living, multiverse. possibly spawning countless, maybe even infinite other universes with slightly different laws of physics. >> rose: and we conclude with jeff pegues, a cbs news justice and homeland security correspondent. his new book is black and blue, inside the divide between the police and black america. >> part of the problem is training, you know.

you talk to police chiefs across the country and they'll acknowledge that they need to do a better job of training. more transparency. these body cameras are helping the situation. at first there were a lot of rank and file police officers who didn't want the body cameras but now a lot of them are finding that they are helpful. >> rose: griff witte, peter beggaren, neil degrasse tie son and jeff pegues from cbs news when we continue. >> funding for charlie rose is provided by the following. bank of america, life better connected. >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications

from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> we begin this evening with theafter math of monday's terrorism attack in manchester, england. authorities now say the bombing suspect 22 year old british nationalist salman abedi is was part of a larger network. britain remained on heighten alertment among those arrested were the father and younger brother of abedi, both of whom were apprehended in libya. officials believe that the three abedi men have ties to isis which on tuesday claimed responsibility for the attack. joining me now from manchester, griff witte, london bureau chief from "the washington post" and from washington peter beggaren national security analyst for cnn. his latest book is united states of jihad, investigating america's home grown terrorists. i'm pleased to have both of them. griff, you first. tell me what this day, what we have learned on this day is

which is now considerably later. >> i think there has been a widening of intensification today. we started the day with one additional suspect in custody, ending with eight people in kution today on two different continents. day in the u.k., most of them here in manchester. most of them from the south manchester neighborhood where abedi had lived. but you also have two people who have been arrested in libya, the brother, younger brother of the suspect as well as the father of the suspect. and the younger brother according to libyan authority was preparing to carry out an attack in tripoli and the authorities there in libya say they have disrupted his attack. they say he has confessed to being part of both a plot in libya as well as to have been involved in the plot here in the u.k. and to have helped his brother to carry out the attack that we saw monday night.

>> rose: who else did we think was part of the plot. >> they haven't said. we know that the three relatives of the brother have been arrested. so the younger brother and the father in libya, as well as the older brother here in manchester, the others we really don't know who they are. and one of the big questions now for investigators, one of the big questions for the british public that we just don't have an answer to is do we do the british-- do the british authorities have the bomb maker in custody. and i think this is really a crucial question. the bomb in question on monday night was, i think, much more powerful, much more sophisticated than what british authorities are used to seeing here. and i think british authorities are very concerned about that fact and they want to make sure that they have the man who created that bomb who built it in kus today. and it doesn't seem that they think they do at this point. because britain remains on a critical state of alert, the absolute highest state of alert. we saw thousands of british troops fanning out in london

today, guarding some of the most iconic landmarks in the city, including the pal as of westminster where parliament at downing street where the prime minister lives and buckingham palace. so britain is certainly still a country that is on edge. the prime minister has said that another attack as this point may be imminent and we just don't know whether that is, in fact. the case. >> they clearly are planning for it with the kind of alert they have and the rollout of so many police and military people. >> they are. in manchester obviously britain is a country that is well-known for having a predominantly unarm the police force. so the site of soldiers on the street is really unusual. i mean even the site of armed police officers on the streets is unusual. here in manchester, you had, you don't have soldiers on the street but you do have quite a good number of armed police officers patrolling the streets,

especially some of the major squares, there is a central square right outside the townhall in manchester that has become a site of public morning where people are leaving flowers, people are crying, people are giving pray ares of remembrance and you do have quite a number of armed police officers there who are keeping an eye on that scene. obviously very reticent of the possibility of a followup attack. >> what do you know or what have we learned about the relationship between abedi and isis recruiters? >> i think we don't quite know yet what that relationship is, if anything. i mean right now we do know that isis claimed responsibility for the attack. and i wrote 24 hours ago that i thought it had some merit because isis is pretty careful about claiming responsibility for the attacks that it either inspires or directs. what's not clear yet is was this merely inspired or was this really directed by isis,

perhaps, from libya. but i don't think we yet know the exact dimensions of this, charlie. >> rose: with respect to isis today, what does this signal to you, peter, as they lose some of the caliphate in iraq and perhaps a lot more in syria, that this is going to become their new mode of attack against the west? >> i am not sure we even really knew, since 2014 isis spokesman have been calling for attacks in the west. it is actually, i think, sort of back fired in a sense. every time there is an attack in the west it amplifies the military pressure on isis. so if you go back once they beheaded jim and other american hostages, united states amped up the pressure on isis. once they attacked in turkey, the turkish army invaded into syria, the turkish army is not a rag tag militia group. it's got tanks and close air support. and you know, so in a way they have a strategy that is kind of in conflict. they really do want to have a

caliphate yet at the same time by encouraging these attacks in the west he, they have much amplified the military pressure which is diminishing the gee graph california i fate every day. >> rose: my impression is they are no longer trying to recruit people to make the long journey to syria but asking people to do things wherever they are now living. >> yeah, we've seen a huge drop in the recruitment of people going to syria i think from about, you know, in the united states where six people tried or attempted to go every month, join isis, that is down to one or perhaps even a zero a month now. the same picture is also true in 2,000 westerners at one point were joining every month. that number has flowed to a trickle. of course no one wants to join a losing organization. so isis is making a virtue of its present situation and kaling for these attacks in the west. unfortunately we're going to continue to see them. >> does the fact that they are looking for this, sophisticated bomb maker or who made a, whoever, a sophisticated bomb,

who may or may not be abedi who was killed in the bombing, does that suggest that this was a very professional attack? >> it certainly is more professional than britain is used to seeing. this was the first successful bomb attack in the u.k. in 12 years. so since the 2005, july 2005 transit bombings in london, it is the first time that attackers have carried out a fatal bombing attack here. we have, of course, seen other terrorist attacks here. just two months ago there was the individual who rammed down pedestrians with a car on westminster bridge and then got out and stabbed to death a british police officer in front of parliament. but that is a much easier attack to carry out. that involves getting in a car and grabbing a knife and going out and-- an attack like the one we saw monday night at thing whether that is behind me, manchester arena, it is simply a much harder kind of attack.

obviously we see this kind of attack happen across the middle east. we see it happen in south asia. but it's very unusual for it to happen here in the u.k. >> rose: is manchester a hot bed for radical extremist groups? >> i mean, there was an al-qaeda plot disrupted in 2009 in manchester. they were planning to attack a shopping center so certainly there was some history. i wouldn't say it is a hot bed necessarily because manchester is a big city. and you know, it's not like its-- unfortunately, we've seen ndon came from leads in the north of england. the july 7th, 2005 plotters. unfortunately in major english cities, british cities you have seen, you know, small numbers of people being attracted to the citiology. one of the things i'm surprised by, charlie, is you know, we haven't seen that many successful attacks in britain, certainly of any magnitude. the british have disrupted 13

plots in the last three years, they say. but compared to france or belgium it is a very different story, and up until now it is seen mostly as a franco phone kind of phenomenon. whereas it is people coming out of the french over belgium prison systems who are really doing this mostly. >> rose: it raises the question of how do you find security procedures that will, in fact, try to limit this. my question is, it is still good intelligence, the primary weapon we have against these kinds of attacks? >> i think it is. you know, the fbi has looked at a number of cases since 2009. and what they found is very interesting. the people with the most information are peers and the next level of information are family. the nextevel of information are teachers or authority figures like clerics. finally the people with the least useful information are strangers. but the people that are most likely to contact the authorities are the strangers. so the strangers are producing a lot of false positives. i saw an arab guy take a picture

at a bridge which turns out to be an arab guy taking a picture of a bridge. so the people who know what is going on are the peers and family members. it looks in this case they arrested three family members or see radicalization, are the people, you know, common sense, who are actually interact with this individual. so getting them to perhaps, you know, either go to the authorities or go to a kind of islamic organization to say i see something going on here, maybe it's nothing. i mean that's really the way you disrupt these things. >> rose: i assume that the focus of this investigation now is to see how many people in manchester or outside of manchester were involved in the planning. and if there was any direction from outside manchester. >> yeah. i mean, and direction can come in a lot of shapes or forms. we know in libya, we know isis has a fairly strong franchise in libya, was he trained in libyas.

s with he directed by somebody in libya, in email contact with him in the days leading up to the explosion. we've seen that sort of story unfold here in the united states where people have been training by al-qaeda, they get training on hydrogen peroxide bombs, where you are citying in new york, a man trained by al-qaeda, an american citizen, built a number of hydrogen peroxide bombs in denver in 2009, planning to blow them up in the manhattan subways t would have killed dozens of people. luckily the british intelligence tipped off american intelligence. the fbi followed him into manhattan with the nypd and he was later arrested. but that is the kind of scenario that may well be the case here. training overseas, email connections of some kind, perhaps over encrypted applications, and direction from the terrorist group. and by the way, it may not even be isis. al-qaeda and the islamic mcgreb which is a north african group has a presence there, probably more likely isis

but we shouldn't discount other jihadist groups. >> his book united states jihad investigating america's home grown ter tises. griff fri gri witte was with had imwe lost him in the transmission. certainly hope to have him here again. thank you for joining us. back in a moment. >> neil degrasse tyson is here. dr. neil degrasse tyson. he has been described as the most powerful nerd in the universe. and get this, the sexiest astrophysicist alive. how many astrophysicists do you know. he is the director of the world renowned hayden planetarium and an evangelist for scientific curiosity and discovery. he hosts a popular radio and tv show called star talk. his latest book is called astrophysics for people in a hurry it is perfect for me and i'm pleased to have him back at this table. welcome. >> thanks, charlie. by the way, that sex yis astrophysicist, that was 40 pounds ago and 17 years ago just

to put that in context. but all right. >> rose: so you were a young dude at the time. >> that was another-- another time. >> rose: who did you write this for, people in a hurry. >> i mean people have jobs, people go to school, you have kids. but if you are still curious as an adult, is there anything that serves that busy lifestyle. and i wanted to take these headlines that i know you've seen, exoplanets, dark matter, multiverse, these things about the universe i know you have seen it. and put them-- . >> rose: but you don't know what it means. >> exactly. i wanted to put them under one umbrella in a story arc so that you can come out, while you are in a hurry you can dip in, dip out and it can serve the needs of the curious busy individual. >> rose: bear with me for a couple of definitions. astrophysics. >> yeah, so we care about everything that is outside of earth's atmosphere. so from outside of earth's atmosphere to the edge of the universe, that's us. >> rose: no beyonds gravity there. >> so it's black holes, we got

planets, moons, asteroids, come ets, stars, galaxies, the entire universe past present and future. and the interesting thing is that the laws of physics is not a given. it's not written in the sky that it had to be this way. the laws of physics we establish in the labor laboratory, turns out they apply across the universe and across time. and i celebrate that in a chp ter there called on earth as it is in the heavens. so when you apply the laws of physics discovered on earth to the universe, you are an astrophysicist. >> and universe, the definition of universe? >> that's a tough one because i want to just say it's everything. but recently evidence, recent strong theoretical consideration sulgs there might be such a thing as a multiverse which is the entity out of which universes are born. so if you ask with was around before the universe, you would

say there would be this throbbing, living, multiverse. possibly spawning countless, maybe even infinite other yeuferszs with slightly different laws of physics. and so let me, for the purposes of today say the universe is everything that we can receive through our detectors from here to the horizon, ours could mick horrizeon. >> what do we mean by the big bang? >> well, in my field we're really into one sill bell vocabulary, sun syllable lexicon. there are spots on the sun, we call those sun spots, okay, are you where me now. jupiter has a big red spot, we call it jupiter's big red spot. so the beginning of the universe, the wirth of space, time, energy and everything is, we call it a big bang. and it was named that perjoratively by a critic of the

idea 70, 80 years ago and it stuck and you take ownership. especially since the data shows that the universe began in this infinite es mallly small spot. >> rose: how small. >> well, the opening sentence of the book. >> rose: just to show you, that is why i asked the question. >> the opening sentence of the book. >> rose: like the end of the period. >> one trillionth the size of the period that ends the sentence that utters what i just spoke. >> rose: that is how small. >> that is how small it began. you say already, that doesn't make sense. well, before that there is an opening quote where i just let the reader know, the universe is under no obligation to make sense to you. what are our five senses, they were forged in the plains of africa with sharply tuned to try to not get eaten by a lion. and they're not really equipped to understand what we have received from the universe through our methods and tools of science, microscopes and

telescopes. so you can't invoke your senses. it is the wrong cry ter on. you just ask does the observation match the-- do the-- . >> rose: known facts. >> the known facts. if everything matches up, that is the reality. get over it is what we've got to say. >> rose: so what is the time line for the evolution of the universe? >> well, as all of our evidence shows, everything we see, from here to our horizon, ours could mick horizon was in the same place at the same time 13.8 billion years ago. so that is what we assign as the birth of the universe. what was around before that, we got top people working on that. i got top people. >> rose: is there something like a prebig bang, is there something like a preuniverse. >> no, i mean, other than the idea that there may have been a multiverse, we're kind of, where we got nothing for you there. so is that any difference from saying we have no idea how the earth got here and then we worked on it and figured out how plan eds forms. how about the sun.

we figured out how stars form, including the sun. galaxy, there is still some loose ends there. the next generation of space telescope the james webb telescope is specifically tuned to observe a piece of the universe where and when galaxies were being born. so that will plug a hole in our knowledge when that one gets launched. >> rose: the james webb you used to work at nasa. >> good, that's it. he was the head of nasa. he was the top dog at nasa during most of the run-up to the apollo missions. >> rose: his daughter went to school with me. >> oh, cool, okay, yeah. >> rose: so when you beyonds being a director of the hayden planetarium, beyond going a big television podcast star, do you have time for research? >> no. so hold me back. so you know, i might put in-- today, oh my gosh, a fie hours a week. and i really want to boost that number back up. >> rose: how do you stay on

top of things. >> well, it's hard. so i have colleagues who are and i attend seminars and i speak to them frequently. so i'm hanging on. >> rose: you don't want to just be a spokesman. >> no, i don't. and in fact i have a possibly delusional ambition. >> rose: recognition is the first thing. >> to recovery. >> rose: to treatment. >> so in a few years if there are enough other people on this landscape that i now occupy writing books, doing tv and there is some there, if they-- i want enough so that i can just sort of back away, and so you won't even notice it because the landscape has changed. where no matter where you turn there is someone available to you to bring science, though not even just the universe. >> rose: i only know two astrophysicists. >> there aren't many of us anyway so don't feel so bad. but i want to pull back and just go to the lab. first go to the bahamas, recover, then go to the lab. and you don't have to hear from me again. >> rose: would you like to be

doing that, honestly, or -- have you become a creature of celebrity. >> no, no, no. in fact a perfect day for me is nothing in my indocks. phone doesn't ring. i don'have any urge to reach out to the public. what has happened is there an appetite that gets expressed. >> rose: which is why you wrote the book. >> in the gate keepers of news, your morning news, the evening news, what happens is the universe flinches. and there is kind of like a bat signal that gets sent up to the clouds and i say oh, there are people who want or need an explanation of things and i get called. and so i show up on your set. i show up-- . >> rose: early. >> i show up for the documentary. i'm a servant. that is how i see myself. i'm a servant for the public's app tietd for the cosmos. and this book is an expression of that serve teud it is a gift, really, because you made me, your curiosity, your cleblghtive

curiosity-- collective curiosity honed me to deliver the universe in ways that best serves that curiosity. and in this book there is no end of mind-blowing knowledge about how we understand this universe to work. >> rose: why do you think it is? why are we so curious? is it simply because it's. >> let me offer an untested hypothesis, okay. i want to poshly research this. i don't know how, speak to anthropologists. humans are one of the few mammals, maybe one of the few animals at all that is comfortable just sleeping on our back. you never see a horse asleep on its back. most mammals do not sleep on their back. and we sleep at night. d then i wake up.ack at night and i'm looking up. i look at the stars. and if the moon was here last night but now it's there tonight. and there's other brighter ones,

the planets and they moved. and you got to be curious. you have to be. and i bet this imbued our species with a sense of curiosity for what is above our head, that a beat el could never have. because a beat el is only looking down. and birds only look down. if you take a bird and turn it upside down, it has no-- . >> rose: turtles only look down. >> turtles only look down. they might try to do a head thing-- . >> rose: i have one exception. i have a dog calling hemmingway, a black lab, sleeps like that rose: at night. the air. >> okay. okay. >> rose: i always thought that was a little crazy, now i think it's even more crazy because no other mammals do it. >> i don't know all mammals but the ones i know about. ask the dog if he is thinking about the universe. >> rose: maybe he wants to be an astrophysicist. >> packly. >> rose: you don't mind me mentioning that this book is opening at number one on "the new york times" best seller. >> thank you, yeah. >> rose: witnessing the

curiosity. >> i-- so first i was like wow, that's great. look what i just did. but then i said no, it has nothing to do with me, actually. it has to do with the fact that there is a real cur yotionity that i think it been undervalued by otherses in media. that people have this curiosity, into adulthood that, maybe not everybody, but i am privileged to be able to fan that ember that might still be burning and maybe burst it into flames. and you say i got to know. because there's a lot of very competitive books on this list. some political books, connede rice has a book on the list. there are a lot of good books, david mccolo, a perennial on the list and this floated into the top. and i say that is an affirmation that the public does care about science. >> rose: an affirmation of the fact that you tell it well. >> sure, but i could tell it well but it doesn't have to land on the list. >> rose: they used to always talk about when stephen hawkings

book and bless steffing hawking for all he's done. >> uh-huh. >> rose: they used to say how many people read his book. >> hardly anybody. >> rose: exactly. and that is the pointment but this is a very readable book. >> i hope so, that's my goal. by the way it's not astrophysics for dummies, first of all that title was already taken. but seconded, it's for-- it's real as to trissic-- physics. if you open any page, you have to pay attention to that. i'm treating your intellect with respect. but there are a lot of fun things in there as well. because i think information can be more resoundingly received if i attach it to some pop culture things you might already know about. >> rose: i think what riosity. a childhood i have in >> listen, i think if a child is curious and keeps that curiosity into adulthood, that's all a scientist is. i am a kid that never lost curiosity. and i say this often, you know,

what is going on at home. we spend the first year teaching a kid to walk and talk. the rest of his life telling it him to shut up and sit down. so what's going on there. somewhere in the school system we need it to nurture curiosity on a level that can be sustained even when you graduatement because how many people do you know they run down the steps of lie school, either at the end of the school year or senior year, school's out! and i'm thinking you're celebrating the fact that you no longer learn things. >> rose: but school should ignite your curiosity by teaching you something to go and explore way beyond what they can do. >> exactly. and you will spend many more years not in school than you ever did in school. so if you teach curiosity on top of the base knowledge you can turn us all into lifelong learners and will you also be equipped, inoculated against people who were trying to exploit what might otherwise be your ignorance. you are curious. someone will tell you. i wonder if that is really true. you have a built-in skepticism

when you are curious. that is what we need more of in the adult community. >> rose: let's talk about more questions than you answer. einsteins theory of relativity. >> yeah, this was the follow-on if you will. isaac newton in the late 1600st came out with a new theory of motion and a theory of gravity. and this worked everywhere we ever measured it. the moon going around earth, earth going around the sun. piter it wasn't just a solar phenomenon. in fajt, the planet neptune was discovered because the planet you areanus was not following newton's laws. people said we found the limits of newton's laws. they don't apply that far away. before you throw it out, maybe there is another planet out there whose gravity we have not folded into our he kaitions it is a very hard mathematical problem. >> you are responding to the problem of the other thing. >> exactly. it's a very hard mathematical problem to invert. one is i have an on swrek and let's calculate its gravity.

the other one is there is a gravity here, where must the object be. that is a very hard mathematical problem. brilliant people worked on it, they made a prediction. look here tonight, that announcement got to berlin, an observatory there, there is an astronomer looked in that spot, discovered neptune, newton's laws of motion and gravity were still in tact. what happens in modern time, we find failures at the edge of it, things are not working. all einstein's relativity is, an updated version of the laws of motion and the laws of gravity. it doesn't replace newton, it subsums it. and it applied to black holes, to the beginning of universe itself 6789 and if you put low speeds and low gravity in einstein's equations, they become newton's equations. that's why i'm saying it sub sums newton. >> rose: am i right in believing that i have read over the years that over the years we have discovered affirming evidence of how einstein was

right? >> well, so, i einstein was right on so many counts. but here is something interesting. when he wrote down his first equation that described how gravity functions in the universe, there was a term in there that represented antigravity. and mathematically it doesn't have to match the universe. you can say the rest of this fits the universe but that, there is no antigravity in the universe. so here is what happens. what this term did for him was stabilize the universe to become a static entity. if you take out this term the universe collapses. and why would he think the universe would have any kind of motion at all. there was no premise for that. so he puts it in, and says i have to leave this in. i don't know what it is but i'm putting it in. then edwin hubbell discovers the universe is expanding. that's okay too. he doesn't need the term any more. >> that is why they name a telescope after it. >> among three or four other

reasons as well. so the hubbell, the man. hubbell the hardware. >> right. >> and so, and so einstein realized it didn't need the term and took it out and said putting it in was his greatest blundzer of his life. and so fast forward 70 years. we find a pressure in the universe operating against gravity that is making our expansion accelerate. we have to go back to that term and put it back in. now we need the term. it's real, called the cosmo logical constant. so for einstein, it's like einstein's greatest blunder was saying that this was his greatest blunder. >> rose: that was the mistake he made. >> his only mistake was saying he made a mistake. >> rose: right, right. is there a big surge for union fying theory of gravity? >> yes. and it's been going on. einstein was one of the earliest out of the box. >> rose: if you figure that out, boy, you have a lot of. >> yeah, and not just gravity but all the forces of nature. there is a philosophical idea

that, it's not unfounded. you go back a 150 years there was magnetism, there was electricity. and these were two forces we were playing with. and we said wait a minute, these are different sides of the same coin, so we stapled the words together and got electromagnetism, we found out the weak electrical force, were the same in the early universe, that goes a nobel prize in 1978. in fact, two of the three nobel laureates are graduates of my high school, the bronx high school of science. that school has eight nobel laureates among its graduates, seven of which were in physics. so they fowbd out that they merged as one. so we now call it the electroweak force. so now we have the electroweak force, the strong force and gravity. and it's been tough mixing gravity into these, and no one has done it successfully yet but we have top people working on it. >> rose: explain this question as to why it is important. can anything, can anything or

any object ever outrun a beam of light. >> no, no. not only experimentally have we never seen that, they receiptically we can declare that it's not possible. >> rose: what is the significants of that. >> it has profound-- it is one of the founding principles that make relativity real. >> rose: that's right. i mean that einstein. >> einstein. so once you-- so we were discovering that this was true in our experiments. einstein said let's imagine that it must be so everywhere in the universe. what would then be the consequences. and out of this he derived s the laws of relativity. and then every time we test it, it comes out correct. he's just correct every time we test it. so he has a very deep awareness and sensitivity of the operations of nature just the way isaac newton did. >> rose: what is the difference between dark matter and dark energy. >> unfortunately they have names that are kind of similar to one another. dark matter is what we call the

gravity in the universe that has no known origin. we should really call it dark gravity, if you must. that's literally what it is. we see things moving in space. and you can calculate how much gravity would be enabling that. then you look at what is there. there is not enough stuff there to account for the gravity that is making this motion. hitch stuff it there, is about 15% of what is necessary in the form of matter to make this. so we just called it dark matter t is a mystery. the longest unsolved mystery in modern astrophysics, possibly in all of science, it's been with us since the 1930s. and so we. >> in all of science. >> dare i go that far, and i think i'm going to go that far. >> all right. >> how many. >> how many branches of science have a mystery with them for 80 years. >> i don't know of any, right? >> so but certainly the longest unsolved mystery in astrophysics. and it remains a mystery. we don't know what it is.

if you are a betting person, if you bet on physics. >> rose: just going to go down to my local broker. >> the aisle on the far right. if you are a betting man on physicsk people are suspecting that it might be a new kind of exotic particle that just doesn't interact with us. in any normal way. because this dark matter, it doesn't have light. it doesn't reflect light, bend light, it can bend light but it doesn't interact with light in any traditional way that matter interacts with electromagnetism. so it's a mystery. and then dark energy, that's what we call this mysterious pressure that is operating against the wishes of gravity. we don't know what that is either. and i swroak we should remove those words, those terms because we don't know what they are at the most base level. and just call them fred and wilma, just something that conjures no image. >> rose: or plulto. >> don't get me started about pluto. you don't want to go there tonight.

>> rose: parallel universes. >> yeah, well if there is a multiverse, then in principal there are other universes all around us. and so i suppose you can think of it as a parallel universe. it turns out for reasons that are involved, physics beyond the level that i exited the course work, it turns out the force of gravity can leak out of the membrane that is a universe and be felt in adjacent universes. so i kind of like the idea that maybe the dark matter in our universe is ordinary matter in a parallel universe whose gravity is leaking into ours. and we mysteriously say ohs it's a magical mysterious force of gravity. but it is just regular gravity across the curtain. and so that would be like the concept of a parallel universe where in principle we could detect it. but if there are such things, the laws of physics will be slightly different in them. and it will be really dang russ

to visit. you could collapse in a pile of goo because the laws of physics that maintain your molecular structure would be compromised. so you want to bring a penny, flick it over into the next universe, see what happens to it. but that would be our closest concept to a parallel universe. >> rose: you have more than seven million, maybe i have a low figure here, twitter. >> yeah, it's approaching 7.5. and i am-- . >> rose: and you hope every one want to buy that book. >> 7 million copies of the book. that would be-- i-- that is a holy unrealistic, what is in, one in 10,000, whatever it. is but the book is pretty affordable. the people who put it on sale for like $11. it is not-- . >> rose: this is what you. >> put it right in your jacket pocket, right. >> rose: you get on the plane, on the subway. >> in fact, waiting for your plane is ideal for how that would be. thanks for showing how you would shop lift the book. the way you did t oh, look over

there. >> rose: put that in your pocket, nothing, nothing. >> steal this book was a famous book. so i am astonished as you were telling me that i have that many twitter followers. i want to wake up and say can i remind you that i am an astrophysicist, you can still unfollow, still time. but again i see it as an affirmation of an appetite that is out there. by the way, that's not even the biggest number attached to science in the media. if you look at. there is a website i fricking love science which is also a facebook page, it has 30 million people who follow that page. that is way bigger than-- . >> rose: i fricking love science. >> well, this is a family show, so. >> rose. >> i'm just, i don't want to be bleeped on your show, but i fricking love science. and it is-- so i'm not the only one in this landscape that i think was cleared by a lot of

sweat and toil by carl sagan and others who have come from decades before. >> rose: how important is it when you look at the support of science, how important is it to have, you know, a full understanding of what science does for us and why it's so essential to support it. >> that's a great question. and you know i will not require that a leader know or be fluent in science. i can't require that. all-- all i would want is that the leader knows when they don't know something, and then brings in an expert to vision on it. and then knows how to trust the advice of an expert. those are the best leaders, the ones that don't claim any particular expertise but know how to listen and know how to choose advisors in that capacity. so in this, the 21s century, innovation, science, technology are the engines of tomorrow's economy. and science and technology are what will be providing our health, our wealth, and our

security going forward. so as the science community marched on washington, it makes us look like we're kind of like a special interest group. all right, you want to call us that, fine. what is our special interest? it's your health and your wealth and your security. and it is the special interest that applies to us all. >> rose: one last question, stephen hawking and others have said listen, we need to be colonizing some planet somewhere and they talk about mars. >> yeah, yeah. first i think we should colonize just because it's cool. a cool thing to do. i don't fully agree with their reasons. their reasons make good headlines. we could end up trashing earth and we need a backup planet or an asteroid could come or a killer virus, something devastating to the human population. and if you are two eggs in two baskets, you don't break them all, okay. i get that. but is that practical in the following sense. if you teraform mars, turn it into earth and ship a billion people there so you split the

species, protecting one from disaster relative to the other, i get that. but whatever effort that takes, it's got to be easier to figure out how to deflect the asteroid. it's got to be easier to come with a superviral certificate up where no virus will ever infect you. those have to be easier than tera forming mars and shipping a billion people there. not on that, if we trash earth and you want to go to mars after you tera formed it. if you can tera form mars into earth, you can tera form earth back into earth. why not. so i think in practice, we should do it because it's a cool thing to do and a scientific frontier. but to do it as the solution to saving our species, i don't see that as realistic. plus you are going to sit around and watch four billion people go extinct? and just do nothing about it? its wsh we're fine over here, we're the half that will survive and prop gate the human cease.

i just don't see it as realistic. so i'm-- i say let's do it but not for those same reasons. >> these and other questions are answered in astrophysics por people in a hurry by neil degrasse tyson. thank you for coming. >> charlie, thanks for your interest. over all the years, you do good by science so keep it going. >> thank you, we'll be back -6789d. >> rose: jeff pegues is here, the justice and homeland security correspondent for cbs news where we are colleagues in a if you book he explores the tensions between law enforcement and communities of color. the book is called black and blue, inside the divide between the police and black america. i'm very pleased to have jeff pegues at this table for the first time. welcome. >> 245u, charlie. >> rose: we want to talk about your beat in the second. but the origins of this book? >> well, you know, covering ferguson, covering baltimore, covering chicago, for example, i felt compelled to get facts out there. on both sides.

you know, it's easy to tell one side of the story but what's harder is telling both sides of the story in a matter in which you're being fair. and open minded. and that's what i thought to do in black and blue. >> rose: and what did you think was missing from understanding. >> well, just an accurate portrayal of what is going on on each side, you know, police officers who feel underappreciated, underpaid, overworked and who feel like they are on the front lines of having to solve all of the social ills, i talked to the head of the police union in chicago. he said we can't raise your kids. we can't kawr your psychosis, people are asking us to do too much. on the other side you have black americans who feel like police don't treat them with respect. you have stories, justice department reports of being being strip searched in their neighborhoods, how demeaning and demoralizing is that. and so i wanted to get to the bottom of all of these stories, rip the bandaid off and talk to these people about what the real

story is, how do they really feel. these police officers, they go to these community meetings, they are in their uniforms and they can't really tell people in the community how they feel. so i in a way went behind the scenes and allowed them to open up. i took my iphone. i didn't take a camera crew, took my iphones into these neighborhoods, i talked to police officers who are frustratedded, who wanted to get their message out, said listen, we don't feel like they show us respect. you have the same thing from the other side. so while there is this divide, there are people on both sides who have more in common than they would think. >> what is the breakdown. what in your judgement happens, is it fear? is it the lack of training? is it the lack of something? >> well, it's the lack of both of those things, i think. fear, let's take that, for example. you are a police officer and you

see these images on tv of african-americans yelling and screaming at police officers in their neighborhoods, that can create a fear. on the other side, if you are black american and you have grown up with parents like i did who lived in the south, birmingham, montgomery, alabama, marched in the south, were confronted with water hoses and billy clubs and dogs, well that creates a fear. and then you have a more contemporary issue with ferguson, baltimore, what's happening in chicago. that creates another type of fear. this is what people in the black community grow up with and some police officers, they see these images too. and they think that the black community doesn't appreciate them. and in a way that creates fear as well. >> rose: and so what we need, a there are people to talk to each other, clearly. people to talk to them like you, and report back what we have found. but also i would assume some

sense of understanding the deficits that the police officer faces and understanding what it means to live in a neighborhood whereas you say you are strip searched in your own neighborhood, where you believe the assumption is that you may have done something wrong rather than you're a citizen of this neighborhood, and there's no reason to believe you've done anything. >> well, packly. and that creates this divide. some of it is this zero tolerance policing or stop and frisq when it existed in cities across this country. a jeuj ruled that it was unconstitutional and a lot of police departments are moving away from that type of tactic. but when you have police departments in an effort to crack down on crime, pounding people in a neighborhood, harassing them, essentially,

without probable cause, that creates this rift. how would you like it in your neighborhood if every time you went outside your door you had a police officer officer looking at you in a way that they are suspicious of you even though are you just going to the corner store, right? so all of this leads to this divide, this rift. and it is a problem on both sides because as you said, they're not communicating. you know, in the society that we live in with social media, people would rather talk than listen. however, over the last couple of years there has been an effort by police leaders and community leaders to reach out, to break down those walls, to get to know each other. i mean we talk about some of that in the book. because there are a lot of people on both sides who know that this is about lives on both sides of this divide and how do you bridge that gap. sure it is something that has been at issue for decades in this country. some people in the black

community say it is systemic. but it is the type of problem that people on both sides are trying to work through, and trying to make better. >> rose: so what do the people in the black community say in tempters of what they think is necessary. >> part of it is investing in these neighborhoods. a lot of it-- . >> rose: make the neighborhood better. >> yeah, invest in the neighborhood. put money in hope and opportunity in some of these neighborhoods. because they're not seeing it. if you look at the unploit-- unemployment rate in some of these black neighborhoods in chicago, for example, eng ilwood, austin, unemployment is in the 20% range, nationally it's four percent. so these are communities where there were at one time in history a factory jobs, those jobs have left. there are no real jobs, there is no real opportunity. i mean so when you talk about

rising crime and this rift between police who are facing some of these social issues head on, not that it is part of their job but it's what they are confronted with, well then you have to talk about the entire picture. and part of that is maybe investing some money in some of these communities. and that is what people in black and blue told me. >> rose: there is this thing called the talk. am i saying that right, between parents and children. >> oh yeah, sure. black parents. >> rose: jay. >> thaifg having their talk with their children. >> rose: what is that. >> it is the talk, and i had it. as i say my parents grew up in the deep south but i was raised in connecticut, westport, connecticut, which is a relatively wealthy community. but still i had the talk. and it was a talk that basically went like this. you know, respect the police. do what you are told if you are stopped and pulled over. make it to the precinct. cuz then we can help you. you know, so-- . >> rose: make it to the

precinct. >> make it to the precinct. so this is a lesson that black kids. and there are some people that don't want to hear that. but there are a lot of families, no matter what your sowsio economic background is have that talk with their kids. >> rose: what causes a police officer to shoot somebody who is running away from them? >> could be any number of things. could be a lack of training. could be that he panicked. could be another number of things. >> rose: racism. >> could be some sort of racism, it's hard to tell, and that's obviously something that has to be investigated. are you referring to the dallas case, of the 15 year old. >> rose: that gave a good example to ask that qui. >> uh-huh. >> rose: if somebody is running away and you shoot them in the back, that doesn't seem like a threat. >> you are right. >> rose: but at the same time i learned in all of these cases, make sure you understand all the facts before you speak. >> that's a good point. and in that dallas case the chief came out and said you know, at first defended the officer. but then there was this check of the bodycom video or the footage

and then there was a reversal. and so you know, part of the problem is training. you know, you talk to police chiefs across the country and they will acknowledge that they need to do a better job of training. more transparency. these body cameras are helping the situation. at first 24r were a lot of rank and file police officers who didn't want the body cameras. but now a lot of them are finding that they are helpful. >> rose: for their own defense, exactly. what we are finding and according to this, to a police chief that i spoke with, you know, community members are coming to complain about an officer's action what they do is. they go to the camera. to the footage. and they say is this what you saw. and most of the time, it actually clears the police officer. and so there are a lot of rank and file police officers who are now welcoming these body cameras because it is backing up their side of the story. >> rose: do we need truth and

reconciliation processes like they had in south africa. >> well, and i talk about that in my book, right? that south africa, that was a unique situation. but truth and reconciliation which is something that the chicago policing task force recommended, some sort of cleansing process. and i think in some way that might be good based on what i found in my research and in my interviews, but all it means is acknowledging what has happened. and how you move forward. and there is a police chief, former police chief, terrance kunningham who is formerly the president of the international association of chiefs of police who came out last fall and gave this speech where he apologized on behalf of the plises officers who were enforcing laws that were at times diskrim that store. but it was a way, he felt, to

get this conversation started. to spark a conversation where you acknowledge, okay, there is a history here. there is a history and once we acknowledge that, we can move forward. and i talk about that in the book. and how he came to that decision to make that controversial speech and it was. but he was hoping that it would spark that conversation. and maybe it did, we'll have to see. >> why did you become a reporter? >> well, because like you, it is fascinating to figure out what is going on in somebody's head. >> rose: what makes them tick. >> what makes them tick. and to search for the facts. right. that's what this-- . >> rose: become a. >> in a sense, but just chase the truth. i think our democracy is built on that. you know, we're searching for facts. and that's what is so great about being in in job. >> rose: those facts are in-- the idea you have your facts and we have alternative facts and all of that. >> and that's a problem, that i

think this country has to grapple with. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> thanks, charlie. >> rose: the book is called black and blue, inside the divide between the police and black america. jeff pegues, thank you for joining us. see you next time. for more about this program and earlier episodes visit us online at pbs.org and charlie rose.com captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

>> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. >> you're watching pbs.

narrator: tonight on "quest," giant sequoias can live for a thousand years and grow taller than a 30-story building. but the drought is taking a toll on these iconic california trees. now scientists are scrambling to figure out how to save them. and the hayward fault may be the most dangerous earthquake fault in america. is the bay area ready for the next really big one? and find out how chefs are using chemistry to expand the world of flavor. ♪ announcer: support for "quest" is provided by...