>> rose: welcome to the program. we by again tonight with politics and starting in washington, d.c., we talk to robert costa of "the washington post" and glenn thrush of the "new york times." >> the trump presidency has become an era of disappointment for republican-based voters. they look at this agenda on capitol hill, not only on health care with the graham-cassidy proposal, but on tax reform which remains stalled and they see all these promises that have been made for nearly a decade not going anywhere in washington. >> rose: and we continue with part two of our conversation with hillary clinton and we talk about her new book, called "what happened? ." >> now we seem to have a president who doesn't care and doesn't know what he doesn't know, who operates totally viscerally based on his gut and his highest and most favored response is that yell of the

crowd that con zit -- consists f people who support him, love him, and who see no wrong in anything he does and i think it's a dangerous time. i think his presidency poses a clear and present danger to our country. >> rose: we conclude with paul janeway from the band st. paul & the broken bones. >> my mentality is just to give people -- it doesn't matter if it's five or 50,000, to give people the best show they can possibly have. at the time, and we still have that mentality, obviously it's grown, but it's like convert 'em. either get 'em out or convert 'em. >> rose: robert costa, glenn thrush, hillary clinton and paul janeway and band, when we continue. >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by the following:

>> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: we begin this evening with politics and republican leaders announced toot they they will not vote on the graham-cassidy repeal bill. this is the latest setback in the g.o.p.'s month-long effort to repeal and replace obamacare. the news comes at a troubled time in the trump administration. the president has attracted some criticism for his recent attacks on protesting n.f.l. players. the "new york times" reported monday at least six of the president's closest advisors used personal email accounts to

conduct white house business. the president has long criticized hillary clinton's use of a private email server during her post at secretary of state. joining me from washington robert costa, "the washington post" political reporter, political analyst for nbc news and msnbc. also glenn thrush, political chief white house correspondent for the "new york times." pleased to have both of them here. robert costa, what are the implications of this? clearly there will be no repeal of obamacare, but what does the future hold? >> the trump presidency has become an era of disappointment for republican-based voters. they look at this agenda on capitol hill not only on healthcare with the graham-cassidy proposal but tax reform which remains stalled and see all the promises that have been made for nearly a decade not going anywhere in washington. president trump, so far, has been able to avoid a lot of the blame and fallout of all these pieces of legislation sitting on

the shelf, but it was an embarrassing, almost humiliating day for senate majority leader mitch mcconnell just trying to get something to the senate floor that could pass. again he proves he just does not have the ability to get the necessary votes. >> rose: what's the problem with getting the votes, glenn? >> the problem with getting the votes is it's not even really a bill. it's sort of a notion, and it was patched together by lindsey graham who really wanted, i think, on some level, to prove to a lot of folks in the trump white house that he was somebody who could criticize the president but was also willing to work with him. so there's a lot of cross political currents here to keep this thin thing alive. the republican donor base and republican voter base in general have been fed this notion over the past six years, essentially, that repealing obamacare is the party's central organizing

tenet. so they feel they have to push this to the deadline this weekend. the truth of the matter is obamacare in general, particularly the expansion of medicaid, is very popular in a lot of these otherwise red states like alaska. you can't pass a bill that repeals a benefit that people like. this is obama's revenge. this is what david axlerod and david plouffe and all the obama folks were saying when this was so unpopular and passed in the first place that it may not be popular now but watch how popular it is when republicans try to repeal it. that's how it played out. >> rose: republicans will go to the vote in 2018 without the repeal and replace of obamacare, right, bob? >> we'll have to see. it's only september of 2017. you see the majority leader tuesday saying while tax reform is the next thing on the agenda, he thinks it's more doable than healthcare. healthcare has been emotionally charged for republicans and

democrats. you look at the protests on capitol hill. on tax reform, mcconnell and president trump believe that, at least when it comes to cutting tax rates, forget about deductions in the broader aspect of tax reform, at least on rates, maybe the party could come together and have a majority of votes to get blind that. >> rose: where does it stand now? >> it stands now that the leaders on capitol hill, speaker ryan and leader mcconnell verbal agreed to an outline working with treasury secretary steve mnuchin and others where corporate taxes would be lowered to 20% and some cuts for lower incomes, but not a cut at all for the highest rate. president talks to people like larry kudlow, steve moore and art laugher, also supply siders, and they keep telling the president in one year go down lower, to 15% for the corporate

tax rate, don't listen to capitol hill. and the republicans on capitol hill cringe at this and say just wish the president could unit behind the rates they've come up with that they believe could pass. >> rose: so they've got to work these things out before they can reform taxes? >> this is such a tumultuous time in congress. i was over there this week and you walk to the lawmakers. they have an alabama senate primary runoff tuesday night that's looking turbulent for the incumbent. you have healthcare going nowhere inside of the senate. all this voter anger. the president wading into all the culture wars, that looms over the prospect of tax reform. how do you get tax reform passed if you have all this trauma consuming the republican party? >> rose: if the republican's candidate in alabama loses and doesn't get the nomination, is the president really upset about that, or has he sort of deflected what he expects might

be the result? >> charlie, i think the answer is both. i think my reporting over the last couple of days showed when he went down to support lewisser strange in alabama, he was complaining on the ride in that luther strange was "low energy" which is exactly the disk he seemed devastatingly at jeb bush in 2016. he's trying to soft sell this but privately blaming mitch mcconnell, all the usual establishment republican suspects for saddling him with the wrong candidate. and steve bannon is out there reenergizing himself after being punted out of the white house. this is a delicious moment for steve bannon who, i think, feels as if he has reclaimed the mantel of this populist uprising and seems to be on the outside of the castle reminding donald trump exactly who his voters are. >> and what does it do to the relationship between steve

bannon and donald trump? >> charlie, i still don't understand the relationship between steve bannon and donald trump. i mean, it's easier for me to understand the relationship between my parents than it is to understand the relationship between these two guys. it was very much a marriage of convenience back when they got together towards the end of the campaign. remember, these two guys who were the subject of books, this relationship, have known each other really in a close way for no more than a year. and really, you know, when bannon was being tossed out to have whit --out of the white hoe was in exile, in the deep freeze for several months, the president said i haven't known steve bannon that long. but the thing steve bannon has the purchase on is this raw anger, an anger that first expressed itself -- and bob knows this well -- in the election of dave brat in virginia upsetting the majority leader of that time eric cantor who is a more centrist republican. so what bannon is trying to do

is refuel his revolution, maybe a little bit at the expense of donald trump. >> rose: bob costa, what do you think about this bannon-trump dynamic? >> glenn nailed it, and he's right because the president and bannon have a strange relationship, a relationship that is in part about convenience. but the president, as much as he wants to work with some of the insiders in washington, still always likes to consider himself an outsider and says he still talks to bannon occasionally on the phone, talks through the alabama senate race, and bannon has this ability with trump to convince him his instincts are right, that the outsider instincts are right, and trump appreciates that. so i see this relationship not so much going along a traditional route moving forward, yet bannon picked a different candidate than the president and the usual political dynamic, that would mean the relationship would unravel, not so much this time. in fact, it may lead

president trump to work more closely with steve bannon because bannon in his mind will be seen as a winner, someone who's reliable when it comes to political victory. for a president not driven by ideology but more savors the prospect of victory, that bannon influence could continue to have sway from outside of the white house. >> rose: we're still right figure out the president and his remarks about charlottesville. at the same time, we now have the president's remarks about the n.f.l. knee down. is this simply an appeal to his base or is there more to it? >> there's a combination of visceral reaction by the president who, after all, was a u.s. n.f.l. team owner and believes players ought to listen to their owners, and a political calculation. very, very useful for the president to fly down to alabama and launch this attack, which fuses the two halves from a culture war perspective of the movement we've discussed as being fractured. everybody in alabama -- you

know, i started off my career at the birmingham "post" herald and covered university of alabama football games in us th us the . football units the state. look at colin kaepernick as someone who's viewed as violating a time-honored code. he is definitely viewing that from a tactical perspective. we're hearing from the reporting in the last 24 hours, they flat out told people he thinks it played well with his base. it's something he feels intuitively and views as changing the subject from healthcare reform, from luther strange's loss, from this big tax reform stuff and, more importantly, charlie, from what's going on in the russia investigation which is heating up very quickly. >> rose: bob, first on the

n.f.l. then the russia investigation. >> the president has always been more comfortable talking about cultural issues -- and i'm not talking about abortion or same-sex marriage. he's the kind of candidate, charlie, when glenn and i were covering him, he was most comfortable, i thought, sitting at his golf course watching sports on tv or flipping between sports and watching himself on nbc or cnn or fox. this is the kind of atmosphere that he relishes, the flag, talk of patriotism, winners, losers, good and bad, mass audiences. when you try to nail him down in healthcare or the intricacies of tax policy, it's a different conversation, not the same enthusiasm for the president. for him, in part, it's a distraction from all these different storms that are around the white house, the russia investigation, looming defeat for the trump-backed candidate in alabama. but it's also just something that he so reacts to.

he sees these controversies and believes if he can cling on to the culture, it will in some way benefit him and remind his own voters that he understands the way they see through these issues and they think through these issues, he's one of them. it's populism 101. >> rose: where is the mueller investigation? is it getting closer and closer to the white house? are mueller investigators prepared to go into the white house and interview white house staffers? >> it is. i'm sure glenn has thoughts, too, on this, but every time i'm talking to people close to this white house or inside of it, they're on elle edge about bob mueller. the phrases they usenned the way they talk about it is very serious. seems everyone has a lawyer at the higher ranks of the white house. people expect, even if you're a former official, to be subpoenaed -- to be issued a subpoena by mueller, to talk to the grand jury. they see this investigation

unfolding not only as about russia collusion but about obstruction of justice and that element as many people close to trump alarmed because if you have been involved with how he's responded to different crises within the white house, you may be vulnerable legally to some kind of involvement in potential obstruction. that has people on edge. >> rose: thank you bob, glenn. thank you. ake care. ay with us.'ll be right back. >> rose: tonight, part two of our conversation with hillary rodham clinton, former first lady, united states senator, secretary of state and democratic nominee for president talks about her new back called "what happened?." we continue with the conversation about the 2016 election and its consequences. how do you think we stand in the world today smmplets i think the world -- >> i think the world at large? >> rose: we saw a speech by

the president to destroy a country if they attack us. >> it was a very dangerous speech. it was a very unfortunate turnaway from what american presidents have historically said at the u.n. and i think that it sends mixed messages to a lot of world leaders. personally, i think that vladimir putin and kim jong un are delighted with donald trump. i think they have played him. i think putin has kept him out of syria, kept him out of ukraine, you know, basically kept him off balance. >> rose: so we should really address this. north korea, what would you be doing if you were president? >> i would have a full onslaught of diplomatic efforts. >> rose: isn't rex the secretary -- >> i'm sorry. >> rose: no, go ahead. from what i know inside the state department, nobody at the top is listening to people who have any experience, who know the language, who know the

culture, and i don't think he's really calling the shots anyway. i think the shots are being called from the white house and the defense department. >> rose: oh, by the defense department, they're calling the shots? >> yes. >> rose: you must have respect for general mattis? >> i have a great deal of respect from general mattis and general mattis is somebody who keeps saying we need a diplomatic effort. >> rose: right. i would like to see diplomats whether in the government now or people with experience on the outside, you know, heading to beijing, heading to seoul, heading to tokyo and not leaving, doing everything possible to make it clear -- >> rose: so you -- let me make it clear -- three things. first, we do want to defend our allies. we will misplace missile defense systems, we will do everything to defend not only american territory -- >> rose: what happens with the missile systems in south korea?

>> they're just being installed. we have to help other countries, also. >> rose: missile defense systems? >> missile defense systems. secondly, we want to call the north koreans to come to the table to have a diplomatic effort to determine whether or not there is any peaceful path for resolving what is now a very threatening situation. >> rose: i would be surprised if that is not being expressed to him by either the secretary of state or the secretary of defense. wouldn't you? >> well, i would be surprised. but there's been no reporting. and look at the position japan has been put into. >> rose: they're asking china to do it. >> china has the most leverage, although china's leverage diminished. >> rose: but they have supported us in the united nations on the security council votes and that is a surprise. >> but they have to do more to communicate directly to kim jong un and his ruling authority that they are serious.

they have joined us on sanctions before but these sanctions need to really bite. but i want to say a word about japan. >> rose: please. i think this may be one of the potential points of leverage because i started the negotiations on iran and one of our strongest arguments was to say two countries that were reluctant to have international sanctions because they got oil and gas from iran that, okay, fine, you want a nuclear arms race in the middle east, you want israel to take this into their own hands. sanctions forcing iran to the negotiating table is a far better option. so north korea has now sent two missiles over to japan. japan is going to have to respond, and under its current leadership, it's talking about rearming. south korea doesn't want that. china doesn't want that. some of the feelings going back to world war ii are still pretty raw. but japan can't sit there and be

a setting duck for these missiles coming over its territory. so my argument would be, and any kind of diplomatic process to china, in particular, hey, the status quo is a lot better than having a fully-armed, maybe nuclear armed japan, something that trump cavalierly talked about during the campaign. >> rose: too much criticism. yes, too much criticism. >> rose: saying he didn't know anything about et. >> well, if you have japan becoming a nuclear power. >> rose: nuclear proliferation. >> it's a proliferation that sort of knows no boundaries. i just think there is leverage we still have, and i would like to see it operating. i have not gotten -- >> rose: say to the north koreans that, look, japan is not going to take this much longer. >> they're not. >> rose: and they're going to join. >> that's right. >> rose: but that's what secretary kissinger said essentially, is it not? we've got to take china, south korea, japan. >> well, he knows a little bit

about diplomacy. >> rose: the key is china. the key is china. and -- >> rose: and you can't have a trade war with somebody you're trying to -- >> no, you can't. and, so, i think that there are paths that need to be taken. look, i understand the ultimate argument that, of course, if they go after our allies, u.s. territories or, heaven forbid, our own country, hawaii, the west coast, we have to retaliate. we cannot stand that. but that's not the first thing you say, and you certainly don't make north korean policy in a tweet. and you don't engage -- you know, it's one thing to insult people standing on a stage with you who are running against you for president, it's something rives on those insults and who now has nuclear weapons. >> rose: and who may respond to them in a way that would surprise you. >> exactly. and sort of knowing the little bit that i know about how kim jong un feeds on this, he's

really playing trump, just like putin is playing trump. i think they both have gotten so much more out of their exchanges with trump and the way trump has, on the one hand with putin, you know, basically given him a blank check, on the other hand with kim jong un hurled these insults. >> rose: but what is the weakness trump has in these kinds of things, that he's flattered by attention, he's easily angered. >> i think it's -- >> rose: his emotional response precludes a more intelligent, reasoned approach. >> he's impulsive, he strikes back, he has to dominate at all costs. he has to, you know, be the person who is delivering the last worst insult because that's a form of domination and manipulation, an it's worked for him. i mean, you know him from this city. he's gotten away with so many things because, you know, he

took a position that, you know, if you do that to me, i'll do even more to you. >> rose: that influence -- absolutely, if i don't pay your full bill, you will be luckio to get half and if you sue me -- >> rose: but he's president of the united states, as he constantly reminds us and you're the only person who stood in the way of that and you will live with that the rest of your life. >> i will. i know people are constantly saying that to him. i know people have tried. he behaves for a while. he loves the adulation of his base. >> rose: loves the rallies. he's going to keep doing the rallies. at the rallies, he lets loose and begins his return to attacking people who are not like him, who don't support him but who are americans. >> rose: for someone who's been so close to the power of the executive branch as first

lady, as secretary of state and, so, you saw right there 16 years of the presidency up close. >> yeah, mm-hmm. >> rose: i assume part of the guilt, regret, you must feel is knowing what could be done with the presidency. >> that's very true. >> rose: what could be done in terms of making this country better. >> i agree completely. >> rose: the power of affecting the lives of people. >> for the better. >> rose: for the better. and, look, i accept a lot of the criticism i got because, yeah, i do think policies matter. i'm worried sick about this move by the republicans to do this phony healthcare bill. i'm worried because, at the end of this week, the children's health insurance program which insures 8 million or 9 million kids may not get reauthorized. it matters, charlie. i see the lives of people who

are affected hi these policies, so, yes, i care a lot about it. but more than that, i think the job is supposed to really humble you. that is what i've seen. i remember sitting in the oval office, you know, two days after 9/11 with george w. bush, the bravado, you know, the -- >> rose: he was humbled. he was humbled. i looked into his eyes. i knew the shock and pain he must feel and, you know, was there to ask for help for new york which he promised and delivered on. i have been with barack obama in the situation room, making likely difficult decisions, u first have to say, there are limits to what we know, and we have to operate within an environment in which we know we will never know everything, and that humbles you. now we seem to have a president

who doesn't care and doesn't know what he doesn't know. who operates totally viscerally based on his gut and his highest and most favored response is that yell of the crowd that contests of people -- consists of people who support hit, who buy into him, who love him, who can see no wrong in anything he does, and i think it's a dangerous time. i've had i think his presidency poses a clear and present danger to our country. >> rose: a clear and present danger? >> yes, i do. >> rose: meaning what? meaning several things. to continue to divide this country along race and releng and ethnicity, gender is real ledoing damage -- is really doing damage. you can see it already in some of the pleaback and backlash we're seeing, whether silicon valley fighting over women in tech or, you know, seeing the kinds of bullying that's going

on in school yards and what parents are having to tell their kids after they hear something that the president said, you know, we are e pluribus unum. i believe that. i cherish that. >> rose: from anyone. yes, and all of a sudden it's divide and conquer on every front. go after those black athletes who are exercising their constitutional rights because, you know, you think maybe your base will like it. i just find -- >> rose: if you couch it as insulting the flag. >> that's right. i just find that so troubling and, yes, so there's a danger to our social fabric. i knew that. going in to the campaign, certainly thinking about being president, knew i would have to do a lot of work with people who didn't support me, who believed a lot of lies about me, who were all on the other side of the partisan divide, but i thought that's what you should expect a president to do. >> rose: so, in all of this, in thinking about all of these

things, so what's the most important thing youlander about yourself -- you learned about yourself? >> i think the leadership i was offering buzz not necessarily in -- was not necessarily in line with what would have been making me acceptable to the candidate that a lot of people could support. >> rose: right. yes, i carried baggage, it had been baggage that worked to my advantage in prior campaigns and other positions, but the kind of leadership i was offering was just out of step with what was going on in sort of the world that people now inhabit, and i did not do a good enough job in trying to figure out how, to you know, communicate effectively to people who, you know, were very moved by, affected by a lot of the insults and the attacks. i didn't do a good enough job.

>> rose: but i am struck by, as you talked about that night, as you thought about a victory speech -- >> right. >> rose: -- one of the things you wanted to do would be to reach out to those people. >> absolutely. >> rose: you wanted to say to them, i know you didn't support me or want to see me as president, but i have been elected and reach out to you. i want you to know we have a president who will in fact listen to you. >> that's right, and will work for you. and i planned not to just say it from the oval office but to travel the country and say it, to meet with people who had legitimate grievous. there's a certain group of, you know, just haters and negative folks who are going to believe anything about somebody with a d next to their name just like i'm sure there are people on our side that believe it about someone wan r next to their name, but i wanted to go as far as i could to expand the political space. i wanted to go after money in politics. i had the best program for doing that. i wanted to go after the inequality.

i had a really good set of ideas. i worked hard so that i wouldn't just be mouthing slogans -- >> rose: and you also knew you had to convince people that's truly who you were. >> right. >> rose: notwithstanding speeches you made or whatever you had done. >> absolutely it was, and there was no evidence to the contrary. the optics as i say in the book were sometimes not what i preferred by the reality never changed. >> rose: so what do you do now some. >> what do i do now? well, i'm going to continue my book tour because i think the message about voter suppression and the russians and sexism are ones that live on, even though i'm done running for office. but i'm going to stay active in politics because i care too much about this country and i'm committed to do everything i can to help elect democrats because that's the only language trump and his allies understand if i've got a new group called onward together. i end the book on a pretty optimistic note that, look, there are things we can do to

change the political environment, to try to have a decent conversation across party and other dividing lines, and i'm going to stay active in that. >> rose: thank you for coming. thank you. always good to talk to you. >> rose: the book is called "what happened?," hillary rodham clinton, a book that is praised for a number of things, especially for its rawness, going right to the bone of an experience that she lived through in the race for president in 2016. thank you so much. >> thanks, charlie. >> rose: paul janeway is here, the alabama native is best known as the front man for the soul band st. paul & the broken bones. on stage, his fire and brimstone energy has earned him comparisons to james brown the godfather of funk, keith richards of the rolling stone compares janeway to otis redding saying he's a very interesting cat to watch. st. paul's new album infuses old

school r&b, funk, rock with a whole lot of soul. it is called "sea of noise." here they are performing "i'll be your woman" right here in our studio. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ oh, sweet girl, how you rescue me ♪ from the sirens of defeat ♪ ♪ once we kiss, then you let me go ♪ ♪ why do we do it this way? ♪ i can't bury your past ♪ no, i can't

♪ we'll just hold on instead ♪ i'll be your woman ♪ i'll be your woman ♪ yes, i will ♪ yes, i will ♪ . ♪ the strongest winds come from your mouth ♪ ♪ set my sails down south ♪ through this haze and these storms of doubt ♪ ♪ why do we do it this way? ♪ i can't bury the past ♪ no, i can't

♪ we'll just hold on instead ♪ i'll be your woman ♪ lord, lord, lord ♪ i -- oh, i will ♪ i will ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

♪ ooh, ooh ♪ ash i am, to ash i'll always be ♪ ♪ let me lay in your strong arms ♪ ♪ lord, let me lay, let me lay ♪ can we find peace in that holy sea? ♪ ♪ why do we do it this way, lord? ♪ ♪ why to we do it? ♪ i can't bury your pain ♪ i can't, by and by ♪ we'll just hold on instead ♪ i'll be your woman ♪ lord, i'll -- oh, i will

♪ baby, i will ♪ ♪ ooh, ooh, ooh >> rose: i am pleased to have st. paul at this table for the first time, welcome. >> thanks for having me. >> rose: elton john. ( laughter ) >> yeah. >> rose: tell me the story. loves the song and said, hey, let's you and i do something together. >> yeah, so elton has been on us for a while. he -- our first record. he had an aids benefit and we have been e-mailing back and forth. he's been unbelievably kind to us. he said, hey, can you come play this benefit? we said, of course. we went out to l.a., definitely somewhere about, he said would you mind if i sang with you, which you always go, of course we're fine with that. >> rose: we're good.

we're good. so he came out there and he did the second verse. to me, it was amazing having him sing with us, sing that song. but to me the coolest part was sitting right before, you know, we went into his dressing room or whatever and it was just me, him, and the guitar player and we sat there and you get -- when you're in that kind of presence you just go, wow, this is somebody nobody can take away from you, and it was a lot of fun. i had a great time doing it. >> rose: you were there for a reason because he admired your work, your voice and your song. >> i guess so. ( laughter ) >> rose: because it wasn't that long ago. listen to what i said in the introduction. keith richards of the "rolling stone" said reminds him of otis redding. somebody else saying james brown because of the energy you bring on stage. >> right. i actually, to me, like, i appreciate those. i think that's sashed ground that i don't think, so me, i'm a lot more clumsy than someone like james brown. i feel like i bring a little more like iggy and the stooges

into the situation. >> rose: you can't do the splits like james brown. >> no, that would be bad news for my pants, but i think -- i'm flattered by that. you know, there's no real good response to it because it's just like i would never say that about me, but that anyone would even suggest that in a real way is -- i don't -- i don't think you can get better than that. i obviously think i'm not there at all, but -- >> rose: it's a journey. it's a journey. i want to get there, i do. it's that transcendent thing. you don't want to be, oh, he's pretty good for, you know, 2017. you want it to be, he was just pretty good. >> rose: how long have you been performing? >> i have been singing since i was four years old in church. >> rose: in pentecostal? yeah. and that's what i have been doing. i have been singing since i remember singing. my first solo was when i was 4. i grew up singing. that's what i want to do.

>> rose: do people praise your voice? >> yeah, but at the time i had a pastor that kind of held me down a little bit. i think to be fair to him he was trying to teach me a little bit about humanity. and he did -- about hue multi. and he did, i think, i hope. i wanted to be a preacher is what i wanted to do. >> rose: wanted to preach the gospel? >> i wanted to preach the gospel. when i was about 18, i kind of fell out of love with that. >> rose: because you'd fallen in love with music? >> well, just -- i think, you know, as you get -- i grew up in a very small town in alabama. >> rose: 3,000. yeah, and for me to get that -- you know, to get out of that, your world view kind of expands. you know, when you think about the church's view on homosexuality or all these issues that are so big now, itieidisagreed with those views. i thought if someone loves somebody doesn't matter what their sexual preference is. and i just thought, you know, so you fall out of love with it.

so, for me, then, after that, i was about 18, i started going into bars and doing -- >> rose: yeah, but you don't drink. >> i don't drink. that's the bizarre thing. i don't drink, i don't smoke. >> rose: and you learned that in church? >> i think for me that is a residual thing. i don't feel like it's a moral thing. at this point, it's expensive and it can mess you up on the road. >> rose: and it can screw up your voice. >> and it can screw up your voice. for me, it's okay. falling out of that stuff, going into a bar and doing an open mic night. i wasn't much of a guitar player but i remember getting a reaction. >> rose: what was the reaction? >> they were just -- you know, they had that face, you know, with the eyes wide open. >> rose: listening. they're listening. they're, like, whoa, you know, you kind of heard a gasp, and i was, like, oh, okay, well, i know it ain't my guitar playing because i'm not a very good guitar player and i think i

realized that, okay, and as it gradually went on i kind of felt like that's what i wanted to do. >> rose: yeah. at that time, my dad, i worked at a tanning bed and my dad's, like, i think i got you a hookup. he worked for an asphalt and construction company. i worked at a mechanic shop as a gopher, cut the grass, go for parts, get their lunch. i was about 19, 20 at that time. as time progressed, when the economy went bad, i lost my job and was unimroid for two years. in at the time, my dad had a two-bathroom apartment and he had three people living there and he said -- you know, i said, man, i got to get my life together, got to figure it out. you know, power's getting shut off. you know what i mean? i didn't realize at the time i was kind of depressed. i was still playing music but -- >> rose: were you writing anything? >> writing all the time. i think the first record -- our first record is based off those

times because that's what i drew from. so met a girl who is my wife now, and we -- i thought, man, i've got to get my life together. i go to community college and start really liking school. i go to uab and go to accounting school. this showed up and ruined it all. it was kind of me and jesse's last hoorah. >> rose: you were about to commit to a life of an accountant. >> 100%. >> rose: one more shot. yeah. that's what it was. it was getting together, me and jesse. >> rose: we just saw. we just saw. we got together and we were best friends, had been best friends for a while at that point and we said, all right -- >> rose: tid you go to mussel shoals? >> no, we recorded the first record in mussel shoals. >> rose: that was pre-at the city. >> yeah, that was when i was

paying for my recording with my pell grant, which we joke about. but we were, like, let's have our last hoorah together to record our musical relationship and it changed everything. >> rose: what happened? jesse knew all these people, knew the guitar player. i don't drink so i'm not going to the bars every night. not that jesse did, i don't want to put that on jesse, but he's more of a social butterfly than i am, but then it just started growing. i can't -- it's weird for us because i can't -- i don't know what the formula is. all i know is that we always have this saying before we go on stage. we say oasis pizza. >> rose: oasis pizza. yes, there's an oasis pizza joint in heritage, tennessee. they booked us early on. my mentality is to just give people -- doesn't matter if there are five or 50,000, to give people the best show they can possibly have. at the time, and we still have

that mentality, obviously it's grown, but it's like convert them. either get them out or convert them. >> rose: yeah. so i remember being in that pizza joint, and i'm sitting and i'm just going crazy and i stand on top of the table and kicking people's pizzas out, screaming in their faces. what i remember, why we always say that is, like, you give it all you got, no matter what, and that night we sold so much merch, the guy was so enamored, he was guying shirts for the waitresses and the people in there. >> rose: that's where it happened. >> that's where it happened, i think at the essence of what we are is that -- >> rose: did you just do it instinctively? >> well, so, i can't -- i'm the kind of person i'm hot or colonel. i don't mildly do something. it's either 100% on or it's zero. you know what i mean? so when we play a show, it's, like, you give it everything you

possibly got, and that's just my approach. some people like that and some people don't. but for me it's, like, you have to -- >> rose: but growing up, you could only listen to gospel with one exception. >> soul. >> rose: sam cooke. sam cooke was the soul stirrers, and that's it. that's all i could listen to. and there was one other group my mom would let me listen to an old '70s group called the stylistics, and that's where i learned my fals falsetteo is th. and sam cooke. it was bizarre. at the time, it was normal, and i talk about this with people from the south in small towns, at the time, that's normal. then you realize and get out, oh, that wasn't normal at all. >> rose: and do people say, i thought most soul bands were black. >> yeah. i mean you get that. but we have the mussel shoals swampers,. >> rose: right. you know, who are awful by

pale, as they say. >> rose: yeah. and i think that surprises people a little bit. but you know, to me, music is music and, you know what i mean? i think you pay tribute to those things. you know what i mean? you show your respect to shows that have laid away and i've always told people, like, what would you have me sing, you know? blue grass? you know. but it's a lot of fun. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ in a sea of love ♪ in a sea of love ♪ >> rose: tell me about these

songs. crumbling light post-part one and the idea for the album concept. >> for me you go through the first record and say all this stuff happens, and you go what do you do for the second record? the second record to me is i was genuinely contemplating stop doing this. >> rose: after the first album? >> after the first album. it was such a change in my life of i'm not -- you know what i mean? like on the road, it's such a change. and, so, i was, like -- i started making money. honestly, i wasn't making any money. i mean, i wasn't making anything. and i started making money. i was, like, what am i -- you know, there's more to this. what i do need to do? so i actually got into a -- there's a guy who wrote a book -- >> rose: a lawyer from alabama who lives in birmingham, i think. >> yeah, but the book is inspirational, it's amazing. i read that book and i remember i was crying. you know, and i read a lot of

nonfiction and i've read inspirational books and it just hit me because i'm from alabama, born and raised, never lived anywhere different. it hit me in such a way that i said, okay, if i make another record, it has to be kind of figuring out southern identity in these modern times and where, you know, where i'm from is considered very liberal and vigating that identity because i love alabama football, i love certain things and certain things i don't love, so this record, to me, was the navigation of that and not answering a lot of questions. >> rose: this one? yeah. >> rose: i should tell you, st. paul comes from the idea of nondrinking and not smoking. >> yeah, it's kind of a moniker, you know. >> rose: and where does the broken bones come from? >> that comes from one of the first songs we ever wrote was a song called broken bones and pocket change. the line goes, broken bones and pocket change is all she left me with. all she left me with was the band and no money. >> rose: that's where it came

from. >> rose: crumbling light posts part one. >> comes from a winston churchill quote that he talked about england being a crumbling lighthouse. >> rose: in a sea of darkness. in a sea of darkness. i thought that was beautiful imagery. i feel, in modern times, you know, you feel like you're trying to kind of, you know, try to be a light and try to do the right thing and it's just getting -- i think it gets muddled in the noise. >> rose: midnight on the earth. >> it's about having a relationship with an alien. that's -- it's kind of a fun. so i had this weird dream where an alien grabbed me up and i could see the world operating in the way that it was inside, just seeing it through, you know, different eyes and seeing, like, kind of what's going on in the world from a social and from a global stance. it was kind of weird. >> rose: you could see the bigger picture. >> i guess so. >> rose: tell me about "i'll be your woman."

>> that song was one of the songs that, you know, it starts off somewhat traditionally, you know. we got lester snell, who did the string arrangement who did isaac hayes and all these geese in memphis, and i was honored to have him. for me, the idea was to turn it on its head a bit. other artists have done something similar. but i thought, you know, these songs about, you know, it's a man's world, i'm a man, and i thought, who is the strongest influence in my life? who is the one? you know, it's my wife. >> rose: yes. and i said, that's who you want to be. so that gender role of, like, oh, you know, i want the woman to take the strong characteristics that were supposed to be manly in a song that was supposed to be like the standard love song and i wanted to turn that on its head and i thought, you know, that's where it came from. >> rose: did she help you write? because she has a keg in english literature.

>> i let her look at it riff once in a while. >> rose: ah... when i went back to school we were dating and i had to take a literature class and i'd give her my papers. and it was just like someone had murdered the paper. red everywhere. it's all over the place. so i will show her the lyrics if i'm close to final stage and she'll give some advice. she'll kind of go, well, that's kind of a standard thing to say or something like that. she's not sitting there writing it, but she'll criticize. >> rose: has a sense of language. >> she -- the way she per force with language is so much better than me. you know, she knows how to construct those things a lot better than i to. >> rose: so characterize the band. tell me what st. paul and the broken bones are. is it soul? is it a combination of what? >> genres, i think, are for record labels and p.r. people. >> rose: yeah. and i think for us, we obviously, the base of it is,

you know, mussel shoals swampers, booker t. and the m.g.s, but for us, i think et goes all the way from surge gansborg to bowie. sanctify we were talking at serg. the voice i have, everyone's it's this or this. but musically we are influenced by so much that to characterize us, like, oh, they're a soul band, you know, like i said, i leave that to p.r. people and record labels. >> rose: "sanctify." "sanctify" is kind of the nod of -- how do i say this? it's turning the kind of, oh, let me sanctify you and in a more intimate setting. i guess that's the best way i could say it.

>> rose: "is it me." that's a special song because it plays off the hold hymn structure, and the line is "is it hell, is it home or is it me," talking about being where we're from, seeing what's going on, and there's a reference to a sci-fi book about this book at these aliens come town and make it a utopia and find out the aliens look like devils and the whole idea of that. to me, that song is one of those songs, i know where it takes me, i know exactly where i'm at when i sing that song and it takes me to a very certain place, takes me back to chelsea, alabama. >> rose: your hometown. my hometown. but it's one of those songs that, to me, it's the overarching song of the record. >> rose: thank you. thank you. >> rose: pleasure. it was an honor. ♪ ♪

♪ ♪ all the bars are closed before the county line. oh, how that breeze smells like honey from a bee, is it hell ♪ ♪ is it home ♪ is it me ♪ jesus is stuck inside my tv screen ♪ ♪ giving all the answers but never holding me ♪ ♪ heaven's too far away ♪ and i can't find no peace ♪ is it hell ♪ is it home ♪ is it me

♪ oh, i feel like the cotton wools ♪ ♪ hiding down between my toes ♪ precious light ♪ how i seek ♪ i can't believe the world i see ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ devils are watching, take me up with you ♪ ♪ i can use the company, and i'm sure you can use it too ♪ ♪ flying in your spaceship, dance on saturn's rings ♪ ♪ is it hell ♪ is it home ♪ or is it me? ♪ is it hell, is it home, is it me?

♪ ♪ is it hell ♪ is it home ♪ is it me >> rose: for more about this program and earlier episodes, visit us online at pbs.org and charlierose.com. >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. >> you're watching pbs.

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