>> funding for "third rail with ozy" is provided in part by: the corporation for public broadcasting. the pew charitable trusts. driven by the power of knowledge to solve today's most challenging problems. and by contributions to this pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. ( applause ) >> watson: hey, people. now are you one of those folks who claims to be color blind when discussing race? i'm carlos watson, editor in chief of our digital journalism

partner, ozy.com. this week sports and race collided. you saw baseball fans unfurl an antiracism banner at boston's fenway park. at about the same time, the white house asked that an espn reporter be fired. the reporter tweeted the president was a white supremacist. tonight, it's 2017, information but we're asking the question, is america becoming more or less racist. that's our third rail question. christina greer, great to see you. >> great to see you. >> watson: you're a political science professor. are we becoming more or less racist? >> there's a more nuanced revolution. >> this is a tough question, i'm going to go with more. >> watson: more or less. okay. all right. and georgia state senator michael williams, now a candidate for governor, republican candidate for governor. is america becoming more or less racist? >> i believe we're less racist. >> watson: you think so? >> i do, i do. >> watson: christina greer, a west coast native who now is here back east.

are we becoming more and or lesracist? >> we are less racist. i will say there are some reddit trolls who are getting way too much attention. >> watson: interesting. jumping in early there. i want you guys to stay with us later in the show when entrepreneur and activist activr rose gives us her take on race, sex, and power. and we're going toment to hear from you at heme and here in the studio audience. we'd like you to share your comments on, of course, message and data rates apply remember when people talked about america moving in the post-racial era? that now seems like that window may be closing. protests over civil war monuments, higher profiles of neo-nazis. all that is kind of shattering the narrative that race relations are improving. progressives call it white rage.

christina, do you feel like white people, particularly white working class supporters of the president, have a right to be mad? >> well, we need to back up just a little bit, right. because when we were talking about, you know, post-racial, most people of color never said post-racial because the boot was still on the neck of black information, latino folks, and asian folks, and others, even while obama was president. so now we have this resurgence of a man in the white house who is, i would say, a white supremacist. i would say he harbors white supremacist thoughts. i would say he is very comfortable supporting white supremacists and what they do. >> watson: now, you realize that a lot of people hearing that would say that's problem. >> , of course,. >> watson: they would say the problem is people are too quickly and casually throwing around phrases like "white supremacist," and that's inflaming. >> right. but when you have educated people-- and we keep putting this on poor people and the working class-- but when you have professors and teachers and police officers marching on a college campus saying, "we will not be removed. jews go home. negroes go home."

>> watson: you're saying charlottesville was a more blended group of protesters. >> and you have a president who says, i don't-- you know, it's anger on both sides. that is actually highly inappropriate, and i think we constantly put some of these racialized conversations, specifically on white working class. first of all, there are working class from all different races. but a lot of people who harbor real racist thoughts and want black information, latinos, natives, subversed, they're not poor people. >> watson: let me turn to michael. michael, when you hear that, what do you hear? >> what i hear is the establishment, the media, trying to destroy our current president right now. he is trying to fight for all americans, black and white. and the people that supported him, president trump received more black votes than both mitt romney and john mccain combined. so there is a broad support for our president. we need to allow him to go out there and do what he does-- which is he loves our country and wants to give back to our

country, and allow him to do that. >> watson: you know there are people, including tim scott, republican senator from south carolina, this week went to go see the president because he was so concerned about the president's comments about charlottesville, and so, even someone from his own party has said, i feel like you've crossed a line and i feel like you're awakening racial or racist demons. what do you think when you hear tim scott say that out loud? >> my response to that, donald trump he didn't grow up in the political world. he didn't grow up wanting to be the president or in politics. he grew up in a construction environment, being an entrepreneur, going out there and doing what it takes to get stuff done. that's his mentality. now, sometimes does he say things not in the best way and get him in trouble sometimes? absolutely. >> watson: alonzo, what's-- i saw you over there. >>e man! >> watson: smiling that native smile. where are you? >> there are so many things. first of all, get, back to the white rage thing, you know, if

you're used to privilege, being treated equal is perceived as discrimination. >> yes. >> so if you're white and you're used to coming first all the time, now it's equal, you're like, "wait, wait a minute." now, okay, people say trump isn't a white supremacist, but he's sure got a lot of white supremacist friends. you know what i mean? i might not be a white supremacist but everyone around me-- yes, he is. this argument that he's not a politician so it's okay to say it, that's not true. because guess what-- >> i didn't say it was okay. never once did i say it was okay. >> he is a politician now. >> exactly, and he's learning, he's learning. >> i don't care what he used to be-- the white house is not a blais placeto learn. remember when a black guy was in the white house and they said a community activist didn't know how to be president. >> did you feel it was fair it say that? >> no, he wasn't treated fairly at all. >> watson: first, i want to pull carrie in for a second. carrie, you're hearing the conversation, and big question,

is america becoming more racist or less racist? obviously we want it to be less but a lot of people are looking at what's happening, not only in charlottesville, but they're looking at the police encounters, looking at thing on social media, and they're saying as optimistic as we are, it feels like it's becoming more. what do you say to folks who say that? >> call me a schmuck, but this is still dr. king's america-- you can laugh at dr. king. >> i'm laughing at people using dr. king's message where he was murder. i make surveys all the time, that survey, today in st. louis there was a white plir accomplice officer who told a man he was going to kill him, and shot and killed him and planted a gun on him and got acquitted. this is structural inequality that we are dealing with that is written into the fabric of our

foundation -- >> hold on. >> i want to make my point without someone laughing at me. dr. king's dream was we live in a society where the color of your skin should not matter. it should be the content of your character. when you're looking at the disproportionate amount of deaths, if you care about black lives, it is black-on-black crime, and the number one variable as to whether a crime falls into crime, or gets into drugs is whether that child is born in a two-single home, across all racial lines, and educational trajectory. that's what we need to be talking about. we need to be talking about the breakdown of the family. but that's not sexy. we need to talk about rebuilding the family. >> watson: you guys, i'm going to actually bring in our exclusive poll, and i'll poll the country. this is good. this is what we want to have. we want to have an engagedment. we often don't have

conversations. we have people who say things in their individual bubles. i'm glad there's a little heat. that means we're having a conversation. in our exclusive poll conducted by our friends at marist, it turns out that 41% think whites have a better chance of getting ahead. only 4% think that black people do. 50% say it's equal. so how does this get fixed? and in fact, whose responsibility is it to fix it? we both in different ways, carrie you and christina, have both said there are some structural issues going on in terms of education, jobs, et cetera. christina, where is the onus. if we are going to move to a much better place, not an incrementally better place, who's responsibility is it? >> i find it a disingenuous arguments conservatives and republicans use. when we were talking about the fundamental issue of structural white police officers or white crime against black people or the state against black people, all of a sudden we want to talk on black-on-black crime. we're not talking about that

right now. we are talking about over 400 years of real specific decisions that had been made to structurally make sure that black people are not in a family unit, to structurally make sure black people don't have the same equal education, to structurally make sure black people can't move around the country the way they could and should. people need to change behaviors. policies need to be changed. elected officials need to right some of the wrongs that have been done. >> what would you like to have done? >> we pay a lot of lip service to police departments. we have a police department under jefferson beauregarde sessions, and we have police can have military armor and tanks. this is on u.s. citizens. >> when barack obama was president, and he had his attorney, were there still police departments out there that were committing the crime? >> yes, and they had several commissions over time to review these police stations and pliments to try to undo some of

this. we know there are inequities in the police department, and we have the "bad apples" out there. >> there are people who do bad things to whites and blacks. >> let's look at the orjibz of n.y.p.d. they were slave caemps, right. we know the origin-- >> we have to move beyond that. >> if you look at policing-- >> look at the audience reacting. is this a good conversation or what? carrie, jump in. >> you mentioned n.y.p.d., the reason we have more police here in new york is because african american and latino leaders asked for. look at the history and the congressional black caucus. >> in the 1980s-- >> can i please finish without interrupting. i listened to you for a minute and a half without interrupting. they asked for the police force because their communities were being run down with gang infestations. >> i'm going to speak not from statistics not from experience, okay. because it's hilarious, with all due respect, for white people to

tell me there is not more racism. i lived in l.a. in the 80s. there were three gangs, the crips, the blood, and the l.a.p.d. you bring up the black-on-white crime, and there is more white-on-white crime than black-on-white crime. >> in terms of-- >> let me finish. >> murders and deaths you said vastly-- >> let me finish, okay. you're talk-- here's the difference-- when you talk about black-on-black crime, if i roll up against a group of crips and they kill me, they're gang bangers they're supposed to kill me. when i roll up against the police, they're not supposed to kill me. you have never been pulled over for driving while black. i have. i have been stopped for being in too nice a car and laid on the ground and had a gun point at me while they checked my license. this is real. this is not a statistic. i'm a large plaque man. you know what that means? i have super human strength. you're laughing but every time the police kill me, their first excuse is, "well, he had

super-human strength, so it took six of us to choke him." or "we had to shoot him because he's a large black man who is superhuman." yes, he was on his knees. yes, he had his hands up. but i was scared for my my life. are you scared for your life right now at this moment. are you scared for your life? >> with carlos here. >> you should be. because this is the position you're in when you're killed by the police. >> watson: what do you hear? alonzo is coming straight from the heart on that. what do you hear? >> my response to that is by no means am i saying that racism does not exist. it is still out there. i am fully aware of that. all i'm saying is let's acknowledge the progress we've made over the past 20, 30, 40, 50 years, find a way to come together and solve the problem. i just don't think it's worse than it was 20, 30 years ago. i agree there's a problem but let's come together and let's solve it. >> if you look at the long arc of history. that's what dr. king said, the long arc of history is long but

bends towards justice. you mentioned slavery. hundreds of thousands of white people gave their lives-- they had nothing to gain from it-- there are more white people who died to stop slavery-- >> we're not going to do this. we're not. >> i'm sorry, but you mentioned it. >> and the republicans were the party-- >> the party of lincoln and they freed the slaves. guess what -- >> hang on, hang on. >> i am speaking from the heart here. i am speaking from the heart. i am speaking from facts as well. i am also the aunt of two half-black nieces. again-- >> i got seven white friends. i've got seven white friends. >> i'm speak as someone who-- >> they like me. >> watson: hey, guys. >> i got an eighth one, but he won't go to court. he won't go to court. but seven of them will go to court and say they like me. >> watson: we saw a lot of racist comments on social media this week after a sportscaster called the president a "white supremacist." a second poll question from our

marist friends asked where president trump's comments about immigrants and people of color making racist remarks more or less acceptable? this week he tripled down by reiterating that there were "bad people" who were protesting the neo-nazis as well. now, 46% say the comments make racism more acceptable, while 36% say less. we should note that both houses of congress this week unanimously passed a resolution condemning white supremacists. what does it mean that congress had to take such an obvious action, michael williams, in your mind? >> having served in the state legislature, i think that was a very weak excuse for the legislature to try to come out and make a comment. i mean, something like that, it's obvious, it's understand. president trump came out himself and condemned it. it was just a political ploy for them to say that they've done something. >> watson: do you worry at all that what we saw in charlottesville and what we've seen elsewhere in the country is letting loose some racial demons and that we as a country may be

at risk, that these kinds of feelings-- even if they're not held by a majority of the people-- that they're spreading. do you worry about that? >> what i worry about is the media making a bigger deal out of it than it is. what we had in charlottesville was a horrific event and accident. what it is, is these white supremacists connected through the the internet and facebook living in their moms' became, able to unite stronger and come together whenever they choose to and show a force-- there's not that much of a force out there. >> watson: what do you think should be done about them and about that? >> i think any time a law is broken, there needs to be accountable for that, whether white supremacists breaking the law, whether it's blacks -- justice needs to be blind. and i feel like right now in our country we have a sense of lawlessness. to your point, the police are doing whatever they want to do. killing black people. whites feel like they're being targeted. there's a sense where, again, we have to fend for ourselves because the laws are not being

applied equally and equitably. >> watson: carrie, i'm going to ask you to give me 30 seconds. >> so in this country, we have always been marching to justice. are we perfect? no, we are not perfect. but if you lookt family, the african american family, there are significant strides, and the family was more intact until l.b.j., and the welfare system punished african american families, fathers, for being in the home. that was a structural problem that started the decline of the family. if you look pre-l.b.j.s this programs, marriage was higher than it is today. white liberals like l.b.j. are driving this problem. and i would like to see the white liberals who are trying to divide us by race and gender displ hue do we look forward? >> look at the universal american message and not focus on identity politics. put the american dream ahead of color, race, gender-- whatever. stop dividing people. >> watson: alonzo give me 30 seconds.

>> this is tough you want to get to a solution? accept the truth. when white people do wrong, hey, it was wrong. we're not saying it's all white people. we're not-- again, my seven friends are great. ( laughter ) we're not saying it's all white people. but accept that there are bad white people. we're not saying that white people are all racist, but accept that there is white privilege, that it does exist. accept these things as real so we can move forward. >> watson: i don't see many conversations across race about race. and certainly not people who actually have differing points of view, right? that doesn't happen much. i'm happy we had it. whether or not people end up changing their minds is a different story but the fact we started the conversation i think is power. thanks to all fowfer you. up next i'm going to talk to entrepreneur and activist amber rose, and ask her what's a biggest issue in america, racism eaor sexism? stay with us.

>> watson: she's got nearly 20 million follows, or social media. amber rose is a bona fide influencers. she's a feminist and activist known for her fashion sense. also known for hear business mind and personal life. welcome to the show. >> thank you for having me. >> watson: what did you think of the conversation we were having that were overhearing? >> it was deep, it was really, really deep. i guess as a logical person i could see both sides. but i can see how certain people feel a certain way, but i also disagree with a lot of things. growing up multiracial, you know, people always were like, "are you black? are you white? what are you?" and i'm like, "i'm just me. like, i'm a little bit of

everything." and people always made me feel like i had to pick and choose a side. i feel like there are so many of us that are just mixed multiracial and we just like to be that. >> watson: now, you have spent a lot of time not just looking at race but looking at gender. >> well, i have my own foundation, the amber rose foundation, and we put on a -- >> say it again. people who don't know might say did she really say that? >> yes, shut walk. yeah! hell, yeah. yeah, we put the third annual shut walk is coming up on october 1. and the second year we realized that the l.g.b.t. community also deals with droogatory labels and domestic violence and rape and sexual assault. it's very prevalent in that community. and they go to the authorities a lot, and the authorities usually don't do (bleep). they do nothing about it. andee. >> watson: we probably can't include that word.

>> (bleep) (bleep). >> watson: sorry. >> audience: that will be in the uttakes. okay, okay. say more for people who don't know what the shut walk is. a lot of people rb new to it. >> basically how it started a woman was sexually assaulted on a college campus. she went to the authorities and the police officer went to the school and said, "you know, you girls can't dress like sluts and expect guys to not want to touch you." so these two feminists came together, and were like, "how are you going to blame us for what we had-- or blame the girl for what she had on? that's not giving a man consent unless i say 'yes, you are invited to come over here and touch me'. it doesn't matter what i'm wearing." they went out and put on pasties and, you know, fish net-- you know, shuteware. which is fine. we all like to dress like sluts. >> watson: i haven't tried it yet. ( laughter ) >> well, you're invited this year. >> watson: okay, okay, okay

( laughter ). >> but, you know, it really was a really sad thing that happen happened, and that is called victim blaming whurk blame the victim as if it was hoa her fau, that she put herself in that situation, why was she there at that time of night and put that on? what stood out to me at the first year's shut walk, a girl had on a gray sweat suit and she had on a sign that said, "i was raped in this." it just goes to show, it doesn't matter what you have on, cob sebt is consent. >> watson: and how much push-back-- you talk very publicly about before becoming an entrepreneur, you worked as a tripper from a very young age. >> yeah. >> watson: how much of is that is tied in to your willingness to be firm and open about the shut walk question and shut shaming? >> we get a bad rap. but people all around the world will use us at their convenience, and then throw us away when they're done with us.

we have porn stars there. we have strippers there. we have extremely conservative feminists because ultimately we all just wantex quality. we just go about it in a different way. >> watson: do you feel like women's rights are progressing here in the united states over the last few years? do you feel like it's going back wards? do you feel like it's in the same place? what do you see? >> i feel like there are a lot of new feminists with trump in office, which makes me very happy, although it is an unfortunate situation that we have to deal with cheeto (bleep)-- i'm sorry, so sorry. >> watson: okay. what do you find the reaction from men? any interesting, surprising, good or bad reactions, you're finding from men as you increasingly have a stronger voice on these matters? >> i'll tell you, the first year no one wanted to talk to me, no media outlets wanted to talk to me. i was just like, "i'm going to do a shut walk. it's going to be successful, and i'm going to throw it in your face until you get it. scvment that's exactly what i did for the past three years.

so the first year, you know, we had 2500 people. the second year we had 11,000 people. this year, we're expecting 20,000 people in downtown l.a. and this was just something they just started when i asked my rich friends for money to, you know, for me to start my foundation. and guys were, like, "you just want to make an excuse to be a shut." and i was like, "yeah, that's exactly what i want to do." in a nutshell, i do. i want women to own their sexuality and be comfortable in their sexuality and know that they can be in the bed with a man, both naked, condom on, ready to go, and you are able to say no at any point. you don't owe anyone anything. >> watson: last question-- you going to run for office one day? ( applause ). >> i should. i should, yeah, i should. i'll-- i'll run against kanye ( laughter ) i think he's run glg for those

who know, that was a little magic here. i like that. i like that. in france, a former couple both ran for president. >> oooh. >> watson: back to back. we have seen couples try to get it done. amber rose, people. give it up. ( applause ) finally, i want to hear from you. now, did our debate change your mind? go to pbs.org/thirdrail to vote. i'm your host carlos watson. i'll see you here next friday. in fact, this is so good. you might stick around between now and then. see you soon. see you online. captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

>> funding for "third rail with ozy" is provided in part by: the corporation for public broadcasting. the pew charitable trusts. driven by the power of knowledge to solve today's most challenging problems. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you.