robert: a standoff with russia. talk of pardons and another cabinet shakeup. i'm robert costa. inside the latest diplotic showdown and changes at the department of veterans, affai tonight on "washington week." >> russia is responsible for that horror risk attack on the britishitizen and his daughter. once again they have broken the kem cal weapon. convent robert: days after the trump administration announced it would kick out 0 rushes --ss ns, moscow kicks back, telling the same number of u.s. diplomats to leave and shutting down a consulates and as the community you highlights in to hold russia accountable forer his agent attacks, the russians announce a new sbontal

ballistic mitchell.t presidump gives veterans affairs director david shulkin the pink slip. t wi president's personal physician, rear admiral ronny rm told take over the secondest -- second last re-- largest department in the fshman department? plus, did president trump's legal team consider pardons for formerampaign dividors. we discuss it all with mark mazzetti ofthe new york mes." shawna thomas of vials news. andrea mitchell of a nbc news jon decker of fox news radio. >> this is "washington week". error rat funding is provided by -- -- court rat funding is provided by -- >> their leahip is instinctiv

they understand the challenges of today and research the technologiesor of tw. some cal them veterans. we call them pardon -- part of our team. >>ca on an ame cruise lines journey along the columbia and snake rivers, travelers retrails the route forged by lewis and clark more than 2 years ago. american cruise lines' fleet of paddle wheelers travel through american land scams to historic landmarks, where you can experienceoam custo and culture. american cruise lines.ou pr sponsor of "washington week." >> additional funding is provided by -- entertainment studios. newman's own foundation,

donating all profits to chairty and nourishing the common good. koo and patricia yuen for the bridging centural diffs in our communities. the ethics and excellence in journalism foundation. the f corporati public broadcasting and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. once again, fr washington, moderateor robert costa. robert: good evening. the friction between russia and the west is escalating.af r the trump administration and a number of u.s. allies moved to expell russians over a nerve agent attack on a former rushingen satisfy inside the kunitedgdom. russia announced it would expel 60 u.s. dip lo malts and close the u.s. consulate in st. pierce. burg in retaliation for a similarhiove by wton. so far more than 20 countries

have kicked out more than 00 russian intelligence officers in solidarity with the u.k. the back story, the kremlin is believed to be behind a chemica poison attack on a former russian spy and his daughter who are living in england. a bo now recovering. yet tensions flared on friday new rusha tested its missile. president putin claims the new mitche o is capablef reaching any point on the match. studying s we've been the president and reportsing on him in russia for over ar now. and now this new chip. what to make of it? andrea: the president is sendsing mixed messages. i first of alls been more than three weeks since that attack and he's not said one word about it. he didn't say a word about to it vlad near putin on the phone a much of the -- to the surprise of his own advisors, he

congratulated putin on his own sham elections. we're told that he's actually than ugher on the phone has been let out. saying ifyou want to have an arms race, i'm going to win that. current diplomats are saying he has to speak out and without his voice, this isoi not to be received in moscow by put or anybody else in the kremlin. hit doesn't have the power of the voice of the united states and it's extraordinary that theseul eons have taken place, worse than anything in e cold war and we're getting involved in this tit for tat but what we need to do spe out and impose sanctions on putin's cronies. robert: is the u.s. now in sync witern europe and its strategy towards russia? >> i terms of what they did his week, the answer is yes.

there was a coalescing of the u.s. and its allies coming together and bootingut, essentially, these rushen diplomats o who athese countries said were operating as spice in their country. to andrea'sois, there is this spits african-americanic proach that the administration seems to be taking on russia. we hear it from russians. john mccain very critical when the president congratulated putin oz -- on his election vibblingt rip. mitch hcconnell sayinge wants tone are ch harsher from washington. a tilt fortually was at the. the russians responded. the last time was at the e of the obama administration, where they expelled russian dip lo mats for the election interference and notably, pumeten didn't respond and that led to all sorts of questions,

why st? this doest of signal thesque lation her shawna: we have an omni bulls appropriations bill the president signed that had multiple things in its that were against the russians. it tried to codify a lot of the tion -- sanctions and provided money for the ukrainians. america is sevending multiple messages and one quite knows what to do with it. even if w seem to be in line with at least the u.k. in this one case. robert: you look at thees pths ent's comments this week on syria and maybe moving tops out pretty soon. what message does that send to russia? andrea: he's been saying that privately we understand to hisd he wants out of syria. russia is now in crge, russia and the iranians. it makes no sense. it's alsoulling out the rug from our kurdishie all and

that is pretty much to erdogan there. we are not only retreating fdem world lhip in europe but also in syria. shawna: it's tellingutz on the stick around in syria and see what he can get out of it. >> but there's some hope with in newional security team coming on board. mike pompeo, if he's confirmed and joh bolton as the new national security advor, that they will take a more hardline approach towards russiain and co the president to speak out on these issues more regularly. andrea: one points about bolton, there's a lot of concern even among some at the state department and at the pentagon. jim mattis has tried to show he's on board with bolton but privately there's aot of sourcing from others in the military that mattis is very

uncomfortable because of bolton's posture with the aaron nuclear deal. robert: when the defense secretary met bolton he said i'm meeting the devil incarnate. andrea: i think he was trying to defuels reports that he was very concerned and might even leave then. administrat even though pop payo is hard lined and has been very hostile about a lot of things from the obama administration, the state department is throwing out the welcome mat. finally, a security of state who can talk to the president, actually noles the policy the president wants and believes in the political process. he's a former politician, a former kansas republican congressman and might actually unov how ton and lead a large bureaucracy. shawna: and even if they're people who don't necessarily agree with trump's policies,

they think mike pompayo will actually put people in thepen positions. they're happy that maybe their offices he been - can be influence staffed and they can do their jobs to a certain extent. >> and our allies ar pleased. they want to know they're peaking on behalf of the president. mike pompeo has a close personal rhythm with president trump and that comforts them to know that he's speaking on behalf of president trump. robert: let's speak to the er russian issue at home. the "new york times" broke the story that presidentmp t personal defense attorney, john doumed, who resigned last week, reportedly dangled pardonens for two key peoplethe russian probe. form early national security advisor michael flynn and former trump campaign chairn paul manafort.

before man form was charged with financial crimes ande bef flynn cut a plea deal with special counselobt mueller in exchange to pleading guilty for lying to the f.b.i. last dember president trump was asked if he would consider granting flynn a pardon. he left the door open. president trump: we'll see what happens. let's see. i can say this -- when you look at what's gone one with f.b.i. and with the justice department, people are very, very angry. robert: when you look at your reporting at the times, mark, john dowd, who's now gone from the legal team, he's denied having these discussions but what did your story reveal about what happened? issue was raised by doupped - indicates there was concern on the legal team about what they were to say if they might

corporatou with theel. certainly this period of time is important. the summer, the fall of 2007, muller is building a case against -- 2017, mueller is buildingt a case agai both people and the white house is clearly concerned. a couple n't know are of things, the specifics of the conversations and alsoer whe president trump put dowd up to it. did he encourage dousmed to make those calls. those are still q keystions we don't know because it gets to this issue of, is there anything illegal or untoward -- untoward about this? the president has broad powers to pardon. however, if you're danger allege pardon exchange to buy someone's sile,e, let's s that's where you get into witness tampering etc. it's been reported that dowd has talked to witnesses in the white house aboutnhe par issue.

about what discussions were held at the white house on the issue of pardonens so it's search an issue that he's looking at. andrea: and one of the things so extraordinary about mark and hii colleagues' tc reporting on this is that usually pardons areffed aceh jeweled occasion. usually they're requested by the person involved, not dangled this way and there's a whole office in the justice departments whi is supposed to coordinate with the white house's counsel office. robert: we talk about john dowd, he's a white-shoe washington attorney. he worked for the pre hdent and nos not there but he matters in the sense that the president habeen negotiating with the mueller team a possible interview and joh dowd has said do not interview with the mueller team. now that he's gone, are we going to see the preside maybe sit down with mueller in the coming weeks? >> i doubt it. i'm going to put my lawyer haltm

on,ber of the d.c. bar and your story was fascinating. it doesn't have the elements of a ,oking g though. you think about the things you brought out there, mar possible witness tampering, possible on instruction of juacice and consp to commit bribery but you need to know more information in terms of what was said in those meetings and whether or not the attorney, john doumed was getting his instructions in his clients president trump in perhaps dangling out those efforts. we don't know thatthet and 's important to member. but as far as what you, menti and remarks there's precedents for putting forward a pridential pardon efpble before a pardon takes place. 1982, christmas day. george h.w. bush issued six pardonens. kaspar wine burger. it upset the independent counsel

at the time, upset democrats but the president did it because -- because he had the power to it turned constitution. robert: the atfeericks matters too, right now in washingomn. this all as the attorney general decides not to move forward with apecial counsel. there's a clamor ong many republicans to have a special counsel. why did the attorney general instead decide to move forward with an attney general vestigation? >> i can imagine that the p.r. of trying to do dueling special counsels, how arey tgoing to work together, who gets what? it creates more attention. look at me, look at this. when i think attorney general sessions wants to do his job in some ways but he also wants to push attention over to other things. i mean, he's running immigratiot

f with d.h.s. the way people want it to be tone to -- done, especially republicans. he is one of the most successful cabinet members there is and i think he knows that calling more attention to this a bad idea. >> and i am the goes to this sort of strategy, rights, for the republicans have tried to use over the last year, which in the -- with all this smoke about russia, the strategy is go after the investigation, right? examine the f.b.i., examine the justicear dent, the so called deep state. discredit the investigators as a way to discredit the investigation.n this has b the issue with comb illinois, mccabe. this issue of what'soing on in d.o.j. and f.b.i. is something that trump talks about all the time. it's not going away. robert: you think about for f.b.i. director james comey has his book coming out in aew

weeks. the white house is on edge about that based on my reporting and you also have a combative president who on twier and sewhere is becoming more comfortable in office, turning to his lalists more often. and doumed was the link to mueller. two former marines talking on the -- on the phone occasionally. now he's not there and t combative aides are around the president. andrea: the combative sexaveds former apleds. he doesn't have hope hicks. as -- aides. he doesn't have home hicks. as of the end ofhis week she's gone. he's the president of the united states but nooderating influence. less and less from john kelly, that's clear. wasn' there when the president was calling putin. he hasn't been there for key decisions and here you have trum trying to hire joe by

general have and his wife, not -- digenova and s wife, not having vet them. >> this issue of the legal team is significant and who is he ing to get to represents him during this critical period whether he hit an interview mueller or not? you're finding this extraordinaryituation in wra -- washington where the mos reputable well known lawyers and firms are shying away from representing the president of the united states, which would be like the pinnacle of a career. this is not normal. robert: ike tto one big attorney this week and they kept saying it's about conflicts and politicasks but they said the real reason they don't want to join the trump team because he president in their view as veteran lawyers, he wants to be his own lawyer and they don't think he wants to accept the counsel's recommendation. they look at the dowd

experience. there was another cabinet shake-up, in time at the department of verans affairs. president trump dismissed david shulkin onnd wednesday nominated navy rear admiral ronny jackson, the white house physician, to lead the dr. sugar kin was brought in during the obama adminisation t his leadership was rattled by recent reports that he used taxpayer money to take a tip to europe with his wife. shulkin downplayed theept, saying he has repaid the government for the charges. saying he was the victim of politically based attacks. he also told judy woodruff that he was fired because ofng his st opposition to privatetizing the v.a., something president trump supports. >> i don't see privatization as a good thing for veterans and i think thathose that are really political ideology

or doing this for other reasons like financial reasons don't have the interests of veterans at heart. i think yo t just haveo talk to the veterans' group to hear that. robert:y colleagues at the "washington post" reported that many people inside of the white house, including dr. jackson, wereed surpr by his nomination. they wrote that jackson was taken aback and heads at the same timed to take on such a big job but the president to push and told the senior statue on monday that the doctor wasisop choice. a senior white house officialon said jacent through an informal vetting process butou withe extensive vetting at typically accompanies a selection. we're looking at a touch configureication perhaps for the doctor. shawna: we are, despite the fact that a lot of people on both sides in washington liked a miriam dr. ronny jackson.

th problem here is -- bedid sort of a dive into the v.a. yesterday on vice news tonight sw becouldn't find anything that looked like management for dr. jackson in terms ounning anymore kind of large organization or even small organizationeally. so while he may be a a very goo doctor, it's h see how he's going to go into something as large as the v.a., something that david shulkin had been a part of before,n' d successfully get through his term as v.a. secretary and do anything. and he's going to toews if a a lot of questions and also about privatization. most people around town trip it is that idea of pvatizing the v.a., sething that some outside parties definitely wants, that that was why he waso

not goingurvive there. the other thing you have to remember is the v.a.ituge. as 351,000 full-time employees. it is, i believe, the second largest organization behinds the defense department. >> it is. shawna: lots and lots of hospitals and out-patient assignments. it isly basic a bank swell. -- as well. it gives loans it is unclear how dr. jackson is going to answer these questions. >> seven out of the last -- individuals seven out of the last nine individuals who have head the v. ramplet have either resigned or -- v.a. are either resigned or beenired. $200 billion budget and as you mentioned, there's no management experience associated with the president's choice to lead the v.a. next and those touch questions are going to come from both democrats and republicans and you look at t veterans groups out there.

amve, which represents 250,000 veterans has expressonedrn over this choice of the president. you have thefw expressing those same concerns. between the time that he's normal named and the time that the configure medication process take place, it will give time for those organizations to gets bilize leds and convince those senators who sit on the sena veterans affirms committee to vote against this nomination. andrea: he hasams 25 or 30, maximum, employees now in the physicians office in the white house so when you speak, shawna, about nagements experience, there's really zero management experience for this kind of step-up. in fairness to dr. shulkin, who had to explain after an inspector general's reports, his wife accompanying him on a trip to europe which he said h been preapproved but still had been questioned and paid back.

that doesn't come close to some of the questions that have been raised about some of the other cabinet members for first-class travel to ma rocco and potential conflicts of interest. robert: we only he half an hour on this show. there's some cabinetes u we'll st e that for nek and welcome, john -- jon, n "washingek." great to have you on the program and also to our favorites who are back. shawna, and remarks mark, always a pleasure. on the "washington week" extra, we'll discuss thesy controv surrounding a question about citizenship on this year's sense us. plus president trump's message to the leader of north korea ahead of their planned summit. watch it online tonight and all week long at pbs.org/"washington week." i'm robert costa and from all of us here, happy pass over and happy easter.

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