welcome to "amanpour" on pbs. tonight iran hits back at israel's claims about its nuclear weapons programs, while the uk and france say israel demonstrated why the iran deal is still so vital. gary samore, the top arms control official in the clinton and obama administration joins me live. plus, the child labor powering our electric cars, smartphones and laptops as cnn discovers small children mining for cobalt in the democratic republic of congo. and i speak to the opposition figure, moise katumbi trying to stop his country's downward spiral.

♪ good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. i'm christiane amanpour in london. nothing new. that is what the u.n.'s nuclear watchdog says about the israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu's self-described blockbuster revelations on iran. in fact, as both netanyahu and the u.n. seem to agree, the documents only concern iran's efforts to develop nuclear weapons a decade and a half ago. the iaea says that iran is in full compliance with the landmark 2015 nuclear agreement. iran called netanyahu's presentation childish and laughable. still, the white house managed to put out a statement yesterday saying that iran has a nuclear weapons program, only later did they correct the statement claiming a typo saying that iran had such a program. past tense. neahu's ray comes at a critical time, of course, because just two weeks before

trump wi decide whether the u.s. will stay in the deal. to separate truth from fiction, i am joined by gary samore. he was the top white house official on arms control and weapons of mass destruction under president obama, and he joins me now from harvard university. moreover, of course, you, gary samore, started out very skeptical of the actual iran deal. so let me first ask you -- welcome to the program -- what did you make of the whys and wherefores of prime minister netanyahu's show-and-tell on television last night? >> it's good to be here, christiane. of course, i haven't looked at the new documents myself, but based on prime minister netanyahu's presentation, it seems like they provide additional detail on the nuclear weapons program as it existed before 2003. but as far as i could tell, the archives don't seem to contain any additional information about current activities, and in particular, nuclear weapons

activities that might have taken place after 2015, when the nuclear agreement was completed. >> so benjamin netanyahu's main sort of thrust was that in his words, iran is being brazenly lying. they never fessed up to a nuclear weapons program and have just been lying, and, therefore, this whole deal is based on, you know, smoke and mirrors and a pack of lies. how would you parse that? >> well, it is true that the official iranian government line is that they never had a nuclear weapons program. that obviously is false. they did have a nuclear weapons program before 2003 when it was suspended and, of course, the concern is that at some time in the future, they will decide to resume a nuclear weapons effort. and under the nuclear deal, iran is not required to completely admit their previous activities.

that was one of the concessions that the u.s. and the other p5+1 countries made in order to get such an agreement. so i think the presence of these documents reminds us that even though the joint comprehensive plan of action, the jcpoa, even though it constrains iran's nuclear program for 10 or 15 years, it doesn't resolve the problem because we may still have a concern in the future that iran will decide to pursue nuclear weapons. of course, we -- i can't predict what the world or iran will look like in 10 or 15 years, but we should understand that the jcpoa is basically a way to postpone the issue, not to resolve it. >> except for the preamble in the first paragraphs, have iran pledging never to seek a nuclear weapons program or a nuclear weapon. >> well, of course, iran has already pledged that under the npt. the nonproliferation treaty and

they violated that pledge when they secretly started a nuclear weapons program. so in the case of iran, the concern is that their commitments, their verbal commitments can't be relied on, and that's why the jcpoa includes some very substantial physical constraints on iran's ability to produce fissile material. and the problem, of course, as president trump and others have pointed out is those physical constraints begin to be lifted after 10 years. so 2026. i think that's still a long way in the future. no reason to abandon the nuclear agreement now, but it is an issue that we may have to face in the future, unless president trump walks away from the deal on may 12th, which unfortunately i think is quite likely. >> okay. so what exactly will that mean? because this now comes at a very crucial moment, and you've just, you know, raised the issue of the sunset clauses and i did say

you were a skeptic. you were a well-known skeptic of a negotiated deal with iran on this issue, and then you turned around and you accepted it and you were more for it than you had anticipated. tell us why, since you're such an expert, technical expert, arms control expert. you've been working this issue practically your whole life. people need to know what's in it that's worth it. >> so right now, two years in to the agreement, it's working in terms that iran is complying with the physical limits on its nuclear program. that means a smaller number of centrifuges. smaller stockpile of low enriched uranium, a dismantlement of the reactor they were building that could have produced plutonium. so in terms of keeping iran away from a practical option to produce nuclear weapons, the agreement is working. it's achieving its primary objective, and if iran continues to comply, those constraints will be in place for the next

eight years, giving us time to work on the problem, as well as deal with other aspects of iran's behavior that we object to, whether it's ballistic missile activity or support or hezbollah or so forth. the risk, i think, is if we abandon the agreement we will cause a conflict with the europeans who wish to keep the agreement in place, and that will jeopardize our ability to work with europe on these other problems. so it would be one thing if you could leave the deal and be in a stronger position to negotiate a better agreement. but i think that's unlikely. i think if we leave the deal we'll actually reduce our leverage. president trump may have a different assessment. i think his style is to be disruptive, unconventional. to go against the conventional wisdom and i think his instinct will be to break the deal and hope somehow out of the pieces, you know, he can resurrect stronger bargaining leverage to

get a better agreement. i can see that happening. >> okay. you don't see that happening. and i'd actually like to go through a few issues. he was in the midst of a big debate about the war eventually in iraq which was based around the theory by the bush administration that they had weapons of mass destruction. this is what netanyahu told congress. there is no question whatsoever that saddam is seeking, is working, is advancing towards the development of nuclear weapons. if you take out saddam, saddam's regime, i guarantee you that we will have a normal -- tlat have enormous positive reverberations on the region. clearly, that wasn't the case. and the administration was egged on to war. so just take that and describe the danger of this kind of chest-beating and attempt to influence as well as inform as

former cia director michael hayden said about internet new england presentation. >> so if president trump decides to withdraw the united states from the nuclear agreement on may 12, the big question will be how does iran react. and i've heard different things from iranian officials. one option would be to go to the commission that has been established by the agreement and complain that the u.s. has abrogated the agreement, which would clearly be the case, and seek a commitment from the europeans and the other parties, russia and china, to try to keep the deal in place. absent u.s. participation. but that will be very difficult to do, because u.s. secondary sanctions will discourage european companies from doing business in iran. another option is for tehran to withdraw from the agreement citing the fact that the u.s. has abrogated the deal first, and then iran would be free to revive its nuclear program which is currently, as i said, under constraint. and the third option, which some

iranians have talked about would be to leave the nonproliferation treaty altogether, which would mean that iran has no international inspection and no constraints whatsoever in terms of its pursuit of nuclear weapon. i think the risks -- >> surely that is where north korea is today, presuessly because yet another president, george w. bush thought that he could get a better nuclear agreement than clinton had negotiated, and i think you may have been part of it, and dumped out of that agreement. and the result was a direct line to nuclear weapons and intercontinental ballistic missiles. they did all the things you're saying. got out of the agreement, no verifiable inspections, and we're at that place again. again, this is a very crucial moment to be making these decisions. >> i mean, i think the likely scenario, if iran begins to pursue nuclear weapons, would be a u.s. and/or israeli military attack against iran.

and i think some people, perhaps even prime minister netanyahu, hopes that a u.s. withdrawal from the jcpoa will provoke iran to take actions that would trigger an american military attack. i'm not sure that's what president trump has in mind. i think his instinct is more to create a disruptive circumstance in which he can try to you know, come up with a bigger and better deal, but for some people, i think the hope is that it will lead to war. >> all right. gary samore, thank you so much for your insight. really very tense times right now. and from this row over nuclear power to a row over clean power, more and more of us are choosing to go green. to tackle climate change and help save the planet. electric cars are driving that revolution, but as cnn has uncovered, a dirty secret lies within, a secret of child labor in some of the batteries that power these devices, and it is

not just car batteries but computer and smartphone batteries too. they're manufactured using a mineral called cobalt. half of the world's cobalt supply comes from the democratic republic of congo, which is at the heart of the african continent, and demand is rising all over the world. not only that, congo sits on some $24 trillion worth of cobalt and other minerals, and this fuels the vicious civil wars that have claimed millions of lives and destabilized the whole reason. cnn's nima elbagir, travel to the drc which is the epicenter of a modern day cobalt gold rush. and what they found was alarming. >> reporter: christian and his friends are digging 20 meters down, taking turns at 24-hour shifts. there's no light and little oxygen, but what they bring up is precious. this is the start of a supply

chain leading all the way from this makeshift mine to your luxury battery-powered car. the sacks are full of cobalt, a crucial component in lithium ion batteries set to power the coming green energy revolution, but at what cost? there is growing evidence that the cobalt supply chain uses child labor. companies say they are working hard to verify the source of all their hand mine artisanal cobalt but it's a difficult task. we're here to follow the supply chain and see if we can do it for them. before we set out even the local governor warns us to expect to see children at work. we arrived at the river mine where the cobalt ore is washed to grind it down. although we've been given permission to film here, as soon as they see us, officials begin

to scare the children away. not all of them, though, are fast enough. some were gone. some work on. one young boy staggers under his load. his friend sees the camera and he drops his sack. they clearly have been warned. a mining ministry official spots this boy carrying cobalt has been captured by our cameras. his response is brutal. later we ask him why he struck the child. he refused to answer. >> we've now witnessed for ourselves, the children are working here, that they are involved with the production of cobalt and we've seen the products of that child labor loaded on to a variety of different vehicles. i'm going to jump into this car that's headed to one of the main public selling cobalt depots. i'm told we're going to the market. this is where the cobalt is bought by brokers.

it's where it first enters the supply chain. the car company tesla for one said its cobalt sources are audited and issued with certificates of origin. they wouldn't say from where or how, but there is no sign of certification here. we watched the brokers set the price and none of them ask where the cobalt is from or how it was mined. artisanal mining output tripled last year and the fear is even more children are being pressed into labor. why? because cobalt is skyrocketing in price. supplying your green electric car comes at a cost. we have permission to film here, but local mining officials once more try to stop us. our producer captures the scene on a hidden camera. the government says it's working to combat child labor, but the same mining ministry officials

tasked with enforcing an ethical supply chain have been the ones attempting to block our investigations. a police officer arrived and we're told we need to leave for our own safety. we do. but not before we spot a red truck loaded up and leaving the very same market. it matches the distinctive red of the trucks used by one of the main international cobalt supply firms. china's congo dong fang mining, cdf. we decide to follow it. we can't afford to lose him, because where he delivers that cobalt load, that is the link between the children that you saw down there on the riverfront and the global markets. as the truck pulls into its final destination, guards rush out to block our cameras. we later receive a warning phone call. this facility is under the protection of the presidential guard.

we're told to stay away. what's going on, that appeared to be a cdm truck, but this isn't a cdm facility. records show it was declared non-operational three years ago. rising smoke and export records so cobalt is still produced here. cdm's parent company tells cnn they did have a relationship with the facility which ended only last year. they're disturbed enough to launch an investigation into our findings, although they state other companies also use red trucks. cnn visited three sites to show how widespread the use of child labor is. at this mine in spite of our permission, we eventually had to resort to filming undercover to capture the children. >> nine years.

>> reporter: we couldn't prove where exactly the dirty cobalt enters the international supply chain, but we witnessed that it does. mercedes-benz, tesla, fiat chrysler among others say they have a zero tolerance policy for the use of child labor, but they acknowledge they are unable to fully map their supply chain due to its complex nature. carmakers simply cannot promise consumers their products are 100% child labor-free. this is the artisanal mining cooperative. it's run by the main international supplier, cdm. rows and rows of red trucks like the one we followed await pickup. access and entry are controlled to block the presence of children and certificates of origin cdm says are dispensed in controlled circumstances. this is what the big brand names

who source their cobalt from congo believes governs their supply. but this is the exception not the norm. the cobalt from these accounts amounts to less that a fraction of the country's artis mall exportation. here the ministry of mining has to validate this. the very same entity whose officials cnn found complicit in hiding the presence of child labor at the artisanal mines we visited is responsible for certifying the cobalt here is child labor free. after ten days in congo our contacts advise us to leave for our own safety. from what we've witnessed, it's clear no manufacturer can fully assure you that your electric car is truly ethical, and as demand for essential cobalt soars, it's children like this little boy who are paying the real price. nima elbagir, cnn, kulwesi, the

democratic republic of congo. >> a heavy price indeed. before the team left congo, the provincial governor told cnn there had been improvement. they don't want kids working in the mines, but all of that is being overshadowed by a high level of poverty. he blamed the interference we saw at the mining sites on suspicious locals who he says believe foreigners are trying to bring down the government. my next guest is hoping to challenge this truly vicious and deadly cycle. running as a candidate in the next presidential election, which is scheduled for december. he is moise katumbi, the one-time governor of katanga province, and he is credited with restoring its economy, education, health and infrastructure. katumbi is now appealing for the world to care about bringing stability to congo, one of the most violent but also wealthiest countries in africa. he is living in forced exile,

and he joined me from neighboring zambia to talk about this. moise katumbi, welcome to our program. >> thank you. >> mr. katumbi, you just saw the report by our nima elbagir. what happened when you found child laborers like that? when you were governor? >> i saw your report. it really is a pity. when i was elected as governor, i found that this issue of child labor in the mining sector, which i abolished, and at that time i was very strict, because i didn't want to send our children to die in the mining sector. i saw your report. it's really, really sad. >> mr. katumbi, there are today hundreds of thousands of children from your country who are employed like that, in mines, in other industries. children who are hungry, who are poor, and, of course, the

democratic republic of congo has trillions and trillions of dollars of raw material and minerals, and what is going to stop the country from allowing these kids to be exploited like that? >> all this is because of bad governance in our country. because the government is absent, president kabila, he is not doing anything for the country. if you can see those children, they don't have any future. that's why you are looking at an election, an inclusive election where they are going to respect the agreement. you can't allow these millions of children are dying of hunger because people are stealing money from the government. and the government is absent. we can't allow this and why we need, really, help from the international community so this thing can stop. >> mr. katumbi, these minerals have fueled congo's civil war. what happens if there is no

election, if mr. kabila still doesn't hold an election? >> this is why you are looking for this election, because if there is no election, congo is going to continue in instability and there can be a civil war. today is 5 million people displaced. they are killing a lot of people. millions of people are dying in the central area of the country that's why we need to have these elections so at least there can be peace in the congo. because if kabila remains, he is going always to keep these militia groups, these stealing all our minerals, using children in the mining sector. and in the law, the law of congo is very good. when i was governor, i abolished these things for the child labor. >> but are you going to be able to go back? you have been, you know, told that you're a dual national and,

therefore, you are not going to be recognized. you've been sentenced in absentia for a real estate deal. they're doing everything they can to make it difficult for you to contest the election. >> you know, kabila knows i am a good govern and i am a good candidate. that is why he is creating these stories. i am going to go back. the region, you see, i was in zambia. i've seen the progress in democracy in zambia. the investment with their president. i've seen progress which is going around in the country, even in rwanda. even what is going on in angola. so we need also peace, we need free and fair election. at least if congo is going to be the center of the progress in central africa. >> will you go back, and are you afraid for your safety? >> i'm not afraid. i'm not afraid. we are -- somebody can kill people in the church.

so this is really what kabila wants. how many people he have killed in the church because they went to pray for election, they went to read their rosary. i'm not scared going back to my country. i will go and change the face of congo. at least the people of congo can smile one day. >> what message would you have for the united states as it looks around africa, it looks to see, you know, countries like yours, which are full of economic potential? what message do you have for the u.s. and for the west, in fact? >> i want to congratulate the u.s. government, because they are doing everything, even the security council for us. the ambassador came to the congo because he wants congo, really, to have a free election and inclusive election. what i'm asking, that they have to push, because kabila is lying to them she going to have election.

kabila is not going to organize the election. he wants to organize the election where he can choose his candidates. that's why i'm asking the u.s. government, really. these people are suffering. millions of people are dying. what we need as congressese, we need a free and fair and inclusive election. >> moise katumbi, thank you so much. of course, in the only credible poll that was done in congo recently, you did come out ahead. so we'll see if that election takes place. thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you very much. >> and we will indeed be watching because imagine if good night. is it for our program thanks for watching "amanpour" on pbs, and join us again tomorrow night. you're watching pbs.

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