pbs". after a barrage of criticism, president trump makes a welcome u-turn. to put an end to family separations at the border on this world refugee day, the u.n. hi commissioner for refugees joins me. also ahead the legendary sailor, dane ellen mcarthur on her efforts to tackle plastics that are poisoning our oceans. good evening everyone, and welcome to the program. i'm christiane amanpour in london. it's world refugee day and this year it's landed right in the

midst of an almighty political and humanitarian row over refugees. a row that is chanllenging the foundations of our democracies from europe to the united states. the pope even weighed in today saying it's immoral to separate families. but from the eastern front where hu hungary passed a harsh knew law to the united states, pope list leaders are having their stay. now after a torrent of criticism over his zero tolerance policy at the mexican border president trump said he'll sign something to keep families together. >> we want to keep families together. i'm going to sign something to do that. people in this room want to do

that. they're working on various pieces of legislation to get that done. i'm working on something that will be pre-emptive. but what to do when politics and displaced people collide. i asked phillipo grande. he reacted to trump's latest decision which was breaking just as we were wrapping up this interview. phillipe grande welcome to this program. >> thank you. >> just give me an idea of some of the stories you heard today. >> so many stories. you know, last night, as you said, i travelled. i flew with 122 refugees that we have helped get free from detention centers in libya to niger to where hopefully they'll be resettled in a third

country. and i spent time with them during the long flight and heard lots of stories. stories, of course, of why they became refugees in their own countries. stories of war, persecution, a lot of discrimination and violence. but then on top of that and this is the new feature we see in refugee crisis, stories of abuse and violence on the way because a lot of these movements are at the hands of smugglers, traffickers that are true criminals that make a business of people's lives. >> what's going wrong with the global response to refugees? >> unfortunately some politicians are exploiting the apprehensions, the legitimate apprehensions and fears of people in those rich countries you're talking about to blame migrants and refugees as the carriers of the risks that people fear. of violence. of insecurity.

of taking jobs away in uncertain economic situations. of values being threatened. and, of course, especially in the case of refugees, that is totally the opposite, isn't it? people are fleeing because of insecurity. people are fleeing because they're deprived of basic rights. so it's quite the opposite and yet that's how they're depicting. and that brings votes and that is what is very dangerous because it turns public opinion against flows and then laws become more restrictive and previous more open, more generous policies of accepting refugees get eroded this is what we see all over the rich world, unfortunately. >> the international refugee committee has also put out a report to mark refugee day. but it goes to the heart of what you're talking about. for instance, apparently 60% of americans believe that the united states does have a moral responsibility to care for refugees.

and the facts show that not a single refugee has committed a lethal attack on american soil since this whole modern effort began and was established in 1980. furthermore, two thirds of americans recognize that resettled refugees actually do contribute a great amount to their societies, to their cultures, and everything. so if the people in places like america where we see this horrendous situation on the border right now. if they understand the need to help refugees, how do you counter the narrative of what you've just said, populist politicians seeking votes? >> it's important to repeat what the irc report says. it's important to continuously convey the true narrative. it's important to tell the story of people, not just numbers. and this is what we're trying to do. you know, it's difficult.

we and the irc and others who are not political organizations, who are humanitarian organizations, our voice carries less than that of politicians. but it's important to remind politicians that the voices out there are not just the voices of hostility, of fear, of rejection. there's enormous solidarity. there's even more than the recognition you're talking about. there's active solidarity, look at a few days ago in spain when the aquarious finally docked in the only country accepted it. thousands came to express help to the refugees that debarked. what i think is important for all of us is to tell politicians also to listen to those voices, not just to the negative voices. listen to the positive voices of solidarity, their voices. these are also voices of people who vote.

>> it is heartbreaking to think only one western european country, one democracy would accept this boat full of refugees. your own country, italy refused. you can see what's happening in germany where the interior minister is threatening the government of angela merkel for her generous refugee policy. hungary has passed a law that could make it a criminal offense for anybody in that country to help a refugee. they could be imprisoned. the united states created a zero tolerance policy that takes it into a criminal zone, away from the civic zone it used to be. this is reminiscent to the kinds of things we saw during the world war ii, the worst of the worst of our modern historical experienc

experiences. >> if you start to thrive politically on negativity, that's a slippery slope, i agree with you. so it's important to come out in force all those who think otherwise and talk differently and influence political dynamics in a different way. i entirely agree. it is also true that sometimes excesses, sometimes crisis, like in this case, generates new solutions. i know for a fact that in europe, for example, among all countries, there is a realization that these flows have to be managed overs and that principle cannot be completely ignored. we're being consulted by european institutions and members. that's important. we need to put forward a narrative. you know, these awe rivals in europe have gone down dramatically in the last few months. there is no emergency. there is no refugee emergency.

refugee emergency is here in niger, is in africa. it's not in europe. but we need to put forward calmly the scenario and put forward a concrete proposal on how to manage these flows in a principle but pragmatic manner. and this can only be made, this is another difficult challenge on sharing, on doing it together. this is what worries me as well is that europe unfortunately seems to go country by country instead of as a political union as it should. >> indeed you say chancellor merkel has tried for years to get a europe-wide solution to this immigration problem and they haven't stepped up. none of the countries have stepped up >> no, but i can tell you that even in the last few days we've had several conversations with many influential member states in europe. i think there is a growing realization that we have to get their act together.

they have to get their act together. i mean it literally, get their act together. there would be no solution, and one country after the other, separate moments, separate countries will pay the price. by the way, yes, there was a reaction from the italians recently, but it is also true that italy received most of the new arrivals in the last year. there was a reaction in germany, but it is also true that in 2015, most of the refugees went to germany. so it's these imbalances that have to be corrected and this can only be done through collective work. common solutions which everyone has to give something to gain something. >> let's just turn to the united states which has galvanized the american people, faith leaders in the united states, these terrible pictures, these terrible tapes of crying children separated from their parents. i want to ask you, do you know of any other civilized country that actually has a policy of separating or an agenda, i'm sorry, because it's not a legal federal policy in the united states.

an administration agenda of separating children from their parents in these kinds of situations? >> i know you will agree with me, i don't classify countries in civilized or uncivilized. i think there are countries unfortunately, where this happens, but it is -- it is really wrong and inhumane to separate children from their family. i can't think of any measure that could be so -- so detrimental to the -- to the people that are suffering and that are already in a hard ship situation. so this really needs to stop. >> you're reluctant to use the word civilized but doesn't our reaction and our response to these grievous needs sort of define our civilization? define us as human beings? >> yes, obviously. i think that -- and this is what

i tweeted this morning when i woke up on world refugee day here in niger. i wanted to remind everybody of the fundamentals that providing refuge, protection, asylum, call it as you wish, to people in distress because they're fleeing from violence, war, persecution, is -- is an act of humanity that all cultures, all cultures, all civilizations, to use your words, share in history and currently. and also, i think it's important to remember that i mention as well, this principle is enshrined in international law, in refugee law. so respecting that principle is not only upholding values, it's also fulfilling what i would call a legal obligation. >> so given that fact, and again given the fact that zero tolerance is not an official u.s. policy, it's an administration agenda of this

current administration, what would you advise to the trump administration for them to deal with whatever issues they have at their border, security, and all of that, but also respect the humanity and the humanitarian law for these people? >> there is a big problem at the border. we've been dealing with this problem together. constructively, together with the u.s. for years well before this administration. there is a problem of huge backlog of asylum applications, in the hundreds of thousands. it's the biggest in the world. but what needs to be done there is investing the right resources in addressing this problem and reducing it. not creating deterrent measures that go against basic rights and humanity and frankly, i believe are not effective in stopping the problem the way they intended to do. >> it appears after a huge amount of both domestic and global pressure, the president

has bowed to reality and he is signing an executive order to keep families together at the border. your response to that? you must be delighted. >> i learned this from you now, and it is, of course, welcome news. and we can now go back to addressing the problem in a principle, pragmatic, concrete, effective manner as we've been doing for years with the u.s. administration. thank you for letting me know. >> thank you for joining us on this world refugee day. >> thank you very much. >> according to sources the fact that the president said he's going to keep families together does not mean that the zero tolerance policy is going to be rejected. so we'll see how that policy continues and whether families will be detained all together now. the outcry over trump's immigration policy comes hot on the heels on another move on the environment.

at the recent g7 meeting, the president refused to sign an agreement on reducing plastic waste in the world's oceans. the only country along with japan that failed to do so. the state of our seas is a burning issue of our time, the documentary "blue planet too" captured the attention with blockbuster viewing figures in europe and even china. then came this mon arresting national geographic front cover. look at this. it's not an iceberg, it's a plastic bag. the uk edition was guest edited with one of britain's celebrated names, dane mcarthur. she joined me here in the studio to talk about teaming up with nat geo. she's aimed at reducing the amount of single use plastic

polluting our oceans. dane ela mcarthur welcome to the program. >> thank you. >> it is extraordinary you were the fastest person, man or woman, ever to circle the globe alone. >> yes. >> do you remember how it felt all those years ago? >> i guess the impossible feeling is you have done it. but i remember specifically the feeling at the finish line of relief. because it takes a long time to put together the program, and put the boat together and race around the world. you're exhausted you've pushed as hard as you can. you get to the finish line and you get relief. when the team came on board is when it became real. >> do you feel a little bit of pride that you did this as a woman? >> to me that was never really an element of it. i raced in a world where men and women competed together. i never really thought about it. i did many races before that record. when you race solo boats, you race against guys. that was just how it was. >> you had an extraordinary experience.

never any gender disparity that's really interesting. >> i've raced many times with men. in fact, all of the 200 transatlantics i've done has been with me, and there were just two of us on the boat. so for me it was completely normal. >> how did you go from the boat and all your amazing firsts and your amazing experiences essentially to this? to editing this edition with the national geographic, planet or plastic? it is a remarkable and dramatic depiction to the threat of our planet, showing plastic as the tip of the iceberg. is it the sailing that brought you to that? >> first of all i never thought i would ever leave sailing. i wanted to sail around the world from the age of 4. but when you set foot on a boat for your journey around the world. you put everything you need on that boat for survival. that food, that fuel, the basics you need to get you around the world. and when you're out there you manage them. and what i developed on that trip, particularly the second, was this overwhelming understanding of what finite meant.

what it was to have finite resources. it was that that led me to the circular economy and the work around plastics. knowing we have finite resources in our global economy and we're using them up. that can't work. the economy doesn't function in the long term. >> so what is the circular economy? it's the first time i heard about it. >> the current economy is linear, we take material out of the ground, make something out of it. it could be a plastic bag, a car, or an item of clothing. and at the end of the use of that item, it gets thrown away. a part of it gets recycled, but most of it isn't, hence linear. and we wanted to take a part of that and make it more efficient, and really that just slowed down the way we used the materials. we're still using them up because it's a linear system. with a circular economy you turn the economy on its head. from the outset you design the economy so the materials and economy flow you design a system

that becomes a product so you get them back. you design that way, you keep products and materials in use in their highest value for as long as possible. >> you have certain solutions where basically you say consumers also have to play their part. for instance if you go into a restaurant, you know, say no straw, please. if you got a plastic bag or go to the super market, take your own bag, don't take the plastic bags from the super market. >> there's definitely an element for the consumer. we prefer to call them users in a circular economy because i hope i don't consume a plastic bag. the user there is a part for. we're trying to change the system so when we by plastic, it's been designed to be compostable, recyclable or reusable. the majority actually isn't. it's not designed to be recycled. even if we want to do the right thing as a consumer, we can't. it doesn't fit within the

system. >> there's this horrible picture -- it is actually fascinating, baby sea horse has his tail wrapped around a plastic ear bud. we hear the prime minister of great britain and other leaders talk about banning ear buds, banning straws, you know, trying to be more, you know, disciplined about the use of plastic bottles. but i've been told it's the soft plastic, the cling film that's actually the most dangerous thing. i think because it gets into the system, right? into the sea animals and into us? >> the challenge is, they're incredibly hard to capture. they're tiny. you tear the corner off, it's likely to blow away. how can you guarantee that goes in a bin. so those single use, the quickly consumed -- like the ear bud, that will last forever. we don't need it to last forever, we need it for a few minutes to do a job. >> tell me some of the steps. i know you have them tripping off your finger tips it is pretty awful, isn't it, the

amount of plastic that ends up in the ocean. it's like a giant dumping ground. >> we didn't do it on purpose. nobody said let's dump it in the ocean. it's just there's 78 million tons of plastic packaging through the year. 8 million tons of that ends up in the ocean. it can't be ingested by the ocean, it can't be digested by the ocean, it ends up sitting there. it's a huge problem. >> we have this on beaches and another picture which shows them floating in the sea apparently 5 trillion pieces of plastic already floating in our oceans and it can take 450 years for some of this plastic to decompose. >> it's there for a very long time. of that 78 million tons, 2% gets recycled. 32% of all plastic packaging makes it to our environment and ultimately ends up in the ocean. >> what did you see when you were sailing? did you see plastic? did you run into these famous

islands of plastics that have gathered in areas of the pacific? >> i raced down the atlantic, so i saw very little. the southern ocean is a very big ocean. no doubt there was plastic down there. we know for sure. but it's not where it tends to aggregate. it tends to aggregate in the pacific. that's where we see these horrendous images and where the sea life does suffer. it's probably floated through the atlantic ocean to get there. >> we have -- here we go again. plastic is the livelihood of so many people around the world -- >> when you see the image, you see people collecting what they can of value. when you look at what's around them, what's around them, the majority have absolutely no value so it's not worth collecting so it stays there. so we're trying to turn on its

heed -- head is exactly that image. any plastic, if it were to leave has value. therefore it wouldn't end up in the river because it has value. >> we saw the g-7, the prime minister of norway told me they had the oceans and plastics brief at the g7 and it matters a lot to them because they have an ocean border dominated economy. yet the united states didn't sign on to any agreement, nor did japan when it came to plastics to try to mitigate the effects. i mean, what's the hope if they all don't get around the table and actually try to agree to do what governments can or should. >> i think governments have an important role to play here, but so did the companies. the companies didn't set out to have their items in the ocean, getting lost for 450 years they set out to provide packaging for their products. what we've seen is a huge, huge energy from those organizations to actually try to fix this. what's difference i think with the plastic space is it's very high volume, low value, they can't do it on their own. the biggest country in the

world, they can't fix it on their own. coke, pepsi, walmart, they can't fix it on their own. they need to collect together on what everyone innovates around. that makes it easier for the government to get behind that because the company is asking for it. they're trying to change that system >> what do you do in your life to be plastic neutral? >> when you buy your food from the as you were market, i'm super conscious, i try to put everything in the right bin but we have no idea. if you bring them with no label, they can't tell you if it will fit in there. the system doesn't work. my hope in this area and my feeling of -- the feeling that there's an opportunity there is to make a system that can work. we can design a system that works. we can make plastics that recycle. we're incredibly intelligent as a human species. let's agree on an action and make it happen.

>> national agree ogeographic i national franchise and brand. people know it and what it stands for. what do you hope teaming up with this dramatic cover and this full issue on this crisis, what do you hope it will do. >> what national geographic has the opportunity to do is connect with people. there are the horrific images we see but there's also a solution out there. there's a lot of cleaning up of what needs to be done of what's out there. but if we can stem the flow, change the flow. make what feeds into the system have value it won't get there. that's where the energy of national geographic plays a role. >> just personally, i don't know if i can do anything solo like you did on the ocean, the elements, scary, were you ever scared? >> if you say you weren't scared, you're lying fp there are times when your life is in

danger. but you're out to break a record and sail around the world. in life we have scary moments you can step out almost in front of a car on an every day day, and it happens. i think when you go to sea you know you'll have scary moments and absolutely amazing ones. when you're sailing 60 foot waves and the moon comes out it's amazing. you're so lucky to be there. >> you want to keep those seas pristine. dane ela mcarthur, thank you so much. >> thank you. >> that is it for our program tonight. thank you for watching "amanpour on pbs" and join us again thank you for watching "amanpour on pbs" and join us again tomorrow night. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com

>> you are watching "beyond 100 days." president trump backs down on his policy of illegal immigration. >> he says he will sign something soon to stop the separation of parents and children at the border. >> the public pressure became too much to endure. he doesn't sound too happy about it. pres. trump: if you are really pathetically weak, the country is going to be overrun by millions of people. if you are strong, you don't have any heart. it is a tough dilemma. perhaps i would rather be strong. jane: