captioning sponsored by newshour productions, llc >> nawaz: good evening, i'm amna nawaz. judy woodruff is away. on the newshour tonight, the swing vote steps down: supremeic court juanthony kennedy announces his retirement. what this could mean for the future of the court. then, the clock starts ticking-- a federal judge orders the white house to reunite immigrant families within 30 days. what's still keeping children and their parents apart. and, ancient manuscripts saved from al qaeda's grasp. can timbuktu's literary treasures now be preserved for generations to come? >> ( translated ): the occupation took us by surprise, so people started to find ways of hiding their manuscvipts, before l. when everyone returnedhen it was time to find them. >> nawaz: all that and more on tonight's pbs newshour.

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world. more information at macfound.org >> and with the ongoing support of these institutions: >> this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. n az: shakeup at the u.s. supreme court. justice anthony kennedy announced today that he's calling it a career he's spent 30 years on the court, and long been a swing vote that decided key cases. now, his retirement could trigger an all-out, election- year war over a successor. came hours after the court wrapped up its latest term. justice kennedy wrote to president trump that it had been "the greatest honor and privilege" to serve. the president reacted almost immediaty, during a meeting with the president of portugal. >> he will be retiring, we will

begin our search for a new justice of the united states supreme court, that will begin immediately. >> nawaz: anthony kennedy was a federal appeals judge when president reagan nominated him to the supreme court in 1987. the senate had rejected the president's first pick, robert bork, in a famously bruising confirmation fight. the second choice, douglas ginsberg, withdrew after admitting to using mar as a younger man. kennedy had a relatively easyro confirmationss. >> the whole lesson of our haconstitutional experienc beenhat a people can rise above its own injustice, the people can rise about the inequities that prevailed at particular time. >> nawaz: in the end, he sailed through the senate by a vote of, 97 tnd was sworn in on february 18th, 1988.

conservatives often counted on his vote. he was in the 5 to 4 majority that gave the 2000 presidential election to george w. bush. in "citizens united" from 2010, he supported loosening campaign spending restrictions on corporations. later, he voted to strike down key provisions of the voting rights act. and just yesterday, he sided with the majority upholding president trump's travel ban. but kennedy also shifted sides at times. in 1992, he voted to uphold the right to abortion. he backed affirmative action in a case from texas in 2016.in and he landmark 2015 case obergefell vs. hodges, kennedy authored a sweeping majority opinion in favor of same-sex couples' right to marry: "they ask for equal dignity in the eyes of the law," he wrote. "the constitution grants them at right." off the bench, kennedy's passioa

for thwas evident. in 2007 he staged a trial for shakespeare's hamlet at the nnedy center. >> we, the members of the jury, in the above entitled cause, are not unanimous. >> naw: he spoke to newshour's jeffrey brown, and, shed some light on his own decision- making. fallible. ar we tend to err. but law and literare both show us ways in which we can progress and mend our ways. >> nawaz: now, justice kennedy's retirement gives the psident a chance to nominate another conservative, having already placed neil gorsucon the bench. and, that sets the state for a senate battle royale. majoty leader mitch mcconnel today promised speedy action. >> senate stands rea fulfill constitutional role by offering aice and consent for trumps nominee. will vote and confirm this fall. >> nawaz: minority leader chuck

schumer demanded that any nomination wait until after the mid-term elections in november. >> our republican colleagues should follow the rule they set in 2016 not to consider aur supreme justice during election year. anything but that would be the absolute height of hypocrisy. >> nawaz: the president says he will pick a nominee from a list of 25 nservative judges. marcia coyle of the "national law journal" has covered the ichigh court ever since ju kennedy joined the bench, and joins me now. thanks for being here, marcia. >> happy tore here. >> nawaz: just o the bad, your reaction to today's news. >> the retirement of justice kennedy has been rumor year ago, and i think there was a sense that, if he was going to do it, it would be this year. he gave, as a reason, he wants more time with his family. he is a repubcan appointee, and perhaps he wanted it to be

under a republican president. so i think many of us -- b not me -- many of us relaxed after the chief justice gaveled in the morning session and there were no announcements from the bench of a justice retiring, but i did arshallr that thurgood m retired from the court about mid afternoon on the last day of the term, so i was not relaxing yet. >> nawaz: and not verys surprised, souke. >> right. >> nawaz: you knew it might come. was known as a centrist conservative. is that a fair assessment? and what does that mean? >> i think so, especially on a court that had conservatives that were very staunch conservatives. he hated being called the swing justice. he often said, just end up where i end up. he was a conservative, a soli conservative, but he has a libertarian strea and if you look at his decisions over the years, especially in the most

edntroversial ones that he mov left in terms of a victory there, his jurisprudence is really animated by two things, his stong belief in the dignity ofhe individual, as well as in the concept of liberty that the 14th amemes due process clause guaranteesish and you see that, i think, most dramatically in the decision he wrote, allowing orupholding the right of same-sex couples to marry. >> you mentioned the same-sex marriage decision there. he has weighed in and made a difference on some of the most heated issues and cases of our time. >> that's ght, we could go down the list -- abortion, affirmative action, civil rights, gay and lesbian equality, e death penalty, he wrote decisions that ended the death penalty for minors und age 18, and, when there is the intersection of government and

religion, he also was key, and many of those votes, when the victory went to the left side of the bench, they were 5-4 decisions. >> nawaz: with his departure, now, is there somne else you see on the bench who might become that next sort of influential swing vote? >> well, i don't think there is a swing vote. i think, in terms of perhaps a median justice, someone in the osnter, the mt likely possibility would be the chief justice. she probably a stronger conservative than justice kenny, but there e certain areas he feels very strongly about, the structure of the constitution in terms of who has the power to do what, and therea yo see him, perhaps, moving a little to the left. also, look at the court right now and have seen sort of a cre number for justices who try harder, i think, than the other justices in order to find common

ground and avoid the 5-4 decisions that show the court ideologically divided, but ins the mif citizens a partisan court, and those four justices are kennedy, roberts, kagan and breyer. so i think, now, with justice kennedy leaving, rcthe sea for common ground may be harder. >> nawaz: you have spent hours in the courtroom watching the juswork. what stands out to you the way justice kennedy did his job? >> he's not as active a questioner as the morrecent justices, but when he asks a question, everybody leans forward to listen beuse he, so often, the key to how some of these more difreficult cases decided. he has a professorial air about him. he's been teaching for ars as an adjunct professor in california and a university in is alsoberg, austria, he goes there every summer.

he's not a warm and cozy guy or very effusive, but has a very professional demeanor on the bench. al nawaz: marcia coyle, "national law jou good to >> nawaz: and with that supreme court vacancy comes a new round of politics.co white housespondent yamiche alcindor and congressional correspondent lisa desjardins joins me now for more the battle ahead. it promises to be a real bate. yamiche, let's start with you. tell me a bit now about where the white house is. it's going to be up to president trump to put forward a new name. he had hnew liwas working off they accomplished last year. >> the most important thi about president trump is the next be someone who's young, pro-life and very coe.servat president trump put out this list of nominees when he was still a candidate before he won the presidey. it was a bold move that was very unusual and he did that because he wanted to signal to wanservatives who were wavering whether or not theted to elect this businessman without a lot of political experience, he

wanted to signal e your back, i want to do something very critical for conservative. a lot of the people on the list came from theederalist society, an organization of conservatives thg is are look retooling the american legal system. the other thing i want to point out is who these pple are because i think that's the big question. n.ere are six women and 19 me it's really important because president trump has been known for nominate ago lot of whi men toe federal courts so om's really important to say that. y count there's one black person, one judge that's the first soth asian judge to be on a federal court. that's important and there is some diversity there. one judge mocked the president on twitter, making fun of him, so i don't think he's high on the list, a judge in texas. mike lee, senator in utah, is considered. the sources in the white house say the number one thing is the person be conservative, but they have to make it not as conservative, i'm sure lisa will

tell us about. >> nawaz: what will the republicans have to get through a senate confirmation, what do they want to see in a nominee? >> abortion remains aber one issue in talking about courts at all levels, especially theou supreme , but there's a real tricky strategy at play here because, right now, with senator mccain at home in arizona, still sick, now we have a senate where the republicans can only lose one of the members to maintain their majority. technically, 50 republicans, 49 democrats. among the 50 republicans you have susan collins and lisa murkowski, two woavmen who said they support roe vs. wade and have also supported planned parenthood. they both voted for kneelrs h. why? susan collins said at the time sh rbelieved he would notule based on his personal beliefs which we understood to be

anti-abortion. vo for this canted to make it, may to thread a needle, be considered conservative on life issues and somewhatbu anti-abortionot too much because these two women need support them. >> there's a careful consideratn that needs to be made here. yamiche, do we know that the folks house from the you've talked to want to take their time, consider the options and el out where the restf the world is or rush full steam ahead? >> the president is l charge on this getting done as soon as possible. the white house wants this done, because the president alreadyha his list, he's said he's going to choose someone from this list. today i talkekto marhort, the legislative director. he will be one of the people shepherding through who the nominee is. he said we want it to be done fairly quickly. he said, obviously, the senate will decide what that is.e but beca they're meeting over the sum here's saying they ho because congress will be in session that they will take the issue up.r othing that's important,

trump is heading to fargo, north dakota today, and i want to mention that because, the president, wle he hasn't sd much about how he feels about this, we know once he gets in front of the crowds, he's going to be screaming that's hiwhy s slection mattered because it' immigration, won the travel ban, campaign finance, hivoters are fired up about the support and republicans often care about supreme court and his voters will care about this. and it wilbe a mid-term issue. the white house says evn iwe get a nominee before midterm, make go on the campaign trail and say president trump got two conservatives for supreme court. nk>> lisa desjardins, thas for being here.

>> nawaz: in the day's other news, the u.s. house of representatives overwhelminglyd vown a republican immigration bill today, despite president trump's appeal to save it. o e measure, in part, called for a pathtizenship for young immigrants, and barring separations of children from parents.un democratormly opposed it. so did nearly half of the republicans.s >> this billything but a compromise it's anything but fair and it's certainot pro- family. >> i think it's important to recoize that it's going to take an bipartisan bill that both address border security as well as a permanent fix for dreamers. >> nawaz: 's unclear if republicans can agree on a bill focused just on banning family sepations. last night, a federal judge in san diego ordered the vernment to reunite immigrant families within 30 days. for children younger than fi, it's 14 days. we'll explore the effects of the court ruling after the news summary. the island nation of malta allowed a rescue ship to dock day, with more than 200 african migrants on board.

they'd been stranded in th mediterranean sea for six days as ily and malta initially refused take them. it's the latest spat in the european uni over migration. an e.u. summit convenes tomorrow to focus on a long-term policy for handling migrants. in south sudan, warring parties agreed on cease-fire, after five years of fighting that's created millions of refugees. the agreement takes affectn 72 hours. ten of thousands of people have been killed in the south sudanese war. the last cease-fire broke down within hours. president trump says he will pkely meet with russian president vladimin next month. he said today the summit could come in helsinki, finland or vienna, austria.mo earlier, iow, the u.s. national security adviser john rlton said mr. trump will not be deterred by tsia investigation. >> i think the preside determined that, despite the political noise in thethnited states direct communication between him and presidenputin was in the

interest of united states, in the interest of russia, and in the interest o peace and security around the world. >> nawaz: a formal announcement on the time and place of that trump-putin meeting is expectemo ow. back in this country, a n who allegedly drove into protesters at a white nationalist rally in charlottesville, virginia, will exce federal hate crime charges. 21-year-old james ields was indicted today. he already faces state charges of murder and other crimes. ree person was killed and dons injuin the attack last year. they'd been demonstrating against the white nationalists. a white policeman inas pennsylvaniaharged today with criminal homicide in the killing of antwon rose, an unarmed black teenager. officials say east pittsburgh officer michael rosfeld shot rose three times, as the 17- year-old ran from a car wanted in a shooting. the district attorney says video corroborates witness accounts that rose held out empty hands to show he had no gun. >> there was no weapon that would have created a risk to ficer rosfeld.d

ba that evidence, i find that rosfeld actions werel intentiod they certainlye brought about sult he was looking to accomplish. he was not acting tont death or serious injury. nu do not shoot someone in the back if they are a threat to you. >> nawaz: rosfeld initially said he thought he saw a gun in rose's hand, but he later recanted. the nominee for secretary of veteran affairs, robert wilkie, promised today he'll try his best to improve veterans' health care. at his confirmation hearing, robert wilkie id he does not support privatizing the v.a. system. he also said he will stand up to president trump, ithat's required. on wall street today, trade tensions with china undercut tech stocks, and dragged the broader market lower. the dow jones industrial average los165 points to close at 24,117. the nasdaq fell 116 pothts, 1.5%, ans&p 500 slipped 23.

suddenly, there'owa marijuana t sale going on in california. legal dispensaries have slashed prices up to 50 percent before new teing rules take effect sunday. after that, shops will be forced to destroy pot that wasn't properly tested or packaged.st the legalized recreational marijuana in january. and, joe jackson, patriarch of the musical jackson family, died early today, of cancer, in las vegas. he was known as a fearsome s figure whoped his sons into the jackson 5 in 1969.o michael grew ilegendary solo performer, and sister janer also became a bue jackson later denied claims that he physicallyd his children. he was 89 years old. still to come on the newshour: can the white house meet a tight anadline to reunite immigr families? what a major upset in new york's primary says about the mocratic party. preserving timbuktu's ancient

manuscripts that al qaeda arly destroyed, and much more. tr nawaz: there are still many questions about thp administration's immigration policy and what it means for thn chileparated from their families. john yang reports how a federal judge has ordered that all kids affected be reunited with thinr parents wi0 days. >> yang: amna, the judge'sst ngly worded ruling raises the stakes for the trump administration on this issue. to talk more about it, we are joined by john sandweg, who spent five years in thepa ment of homeland security during the obama administration, including serving as acting director of immigration and customs enforcement.

john sandweg, thanks for joining us. >> thank you. >> yang: the judge sett a ht time frame on this. all children under five have toi be rd in five days, all older children 30 days and all children have to be able to talk to their parents in ten days. will ty be able to do this? >> provide they did release the children in custody on an expedited basis, shouldn't be a prob m. the key ito release the 2,000 children being held to release them asuickly as possible. >> taking them out of the criminal process and taking the arges against them? >> believe it or not, because the criminal process is pretty short in duration, the charges are misdemeanor charges. in my experience,he judges who do the streamline prosecution, the misdemeanor illegal entry precutions generally will give time served. so by the time you see the judge and plead guilty, your sentence will be complete, theygi wile you time served for time in custody. >> the judge in his decision id that, in a conference with the government lawyers as

recently as last week, they said they hadno plans in place for reconciliation for reuniting families. >> i think the administration was trying to have their cake and eat it, too. they wanted to continue to detain the parents, but one the kids are put in the foster system, there was no way they could have brought the kids to the parents and continued the detention. so i think what you're seeing is the administration didn't have a plan to continue the detention of the presidt and still keep the president's promise of reuniting the kids. that's why the juge's order is important, to force the administration to recognizeit res and force them to let the parents reunify with the chilgeen. >> the jaid they have a system in place for communication with the children. he that's tase, why are parents saying they are having so much difficulty finding outth wherr children are and talking to them? >> because, john, this was never done before. never before have we intentionally separated families in immigration, only in a circumstance of a dangerous felon and you had no choice for

public safety but to do it. but when you implement a massive change like this when you're pping families apart, there was no government agency whose job it was to trk the movement of the parents and children, so i think almost all of these logistical problems we're seeing are a function of the fact we never haa need to provide communications between kids and parents before because we never separated them before. >> to that point, the judge said that the government tracks the property of these parents better than they're tracking the children of these parents. >> yeah. well with, again, you safeguard e property of individuals you detain and that's been a function the government has done for decades, of course, long than that. but, again, what we did here, what's frustrating to me, i understand the frustrations of the people who say we have to end catch and release, there is a simple way of doing that through hiring of immigtion judges. but to implement a massive change without policies and

procedures without identifyingto who's goinrack the children, the parents, what's the reunification plan, do we have the budget to do this, all of those questions could have and should haveeen answered before you implement the policy change. >> and help me understand, also, this process and how ts system works. the judge said parents can no longer be deported without teir children. how common is that, that parents are sent back to their home countries, yet their children remain in detention in theta uniteds? >> prior to the implementation of this policy, it was generally very, veryr rae. the policy in place before was not to let these people go permanently. it would be just to keep the family unit in tact. so they stay in deportation grationings, have an imm hearing where they will be ordered deported eventually buta do it s a family group together. the ministration said if w split the kids from the parents because they're detained, they will be fast tracked in the immigration court. detained cases move more quickly

than non-detained cases. because the kids are not traditionalldetained and ar in a foster facility, they go at a much slower pace. so we're starting to see that in process,nning of the but had this gone on, i think you would have seen almost alld the parents wove been deported while the kids are going through the separate legal presess that much slower. >> eventually would they be dunited with parents an sent back to the home country as well? >> thankfully we won't he to answer the question. it's must have more difficult than people realized because it could be three or four years before the child has a hearing to be deported. some kids eluld beible because they would have been deemed to have been abandoned by parents and would have been eligible for green cards in the united states. we would have een, had this polledy continued, we would have seen large number of the kids and parents permanently separated. >> as someone who's spent time in the federal government and was an variety of the federal government, what's your reaction to this? r callege in this or

the circumstances chaotic. he said they elie measured and ordered governments which is central to the concept f due process enshrined in our fonstitution. what do you makehis as someone who's worked in the government? >> it's bad government is what th setting aside your views on should we be tougher at the border or even separate parents, i think every single taxpayer would agree agree that we need government than competently. the problem is you implement a radical policy sft without consulting career folks working on border security issues and ow the law, the logistical hurdles and the budgetary constraints and get their input and devise a plan to deal with the pontial chaos, you're shorting the taxpayers here. so regardless of what you think of the policy, i think everybody should agree this was incompetently managed and -- lookdri spent hus of hours in meetings at the white house where we we tre going throu budgeting and logistics whenever

we were going to implemea major policy, with all the other agencies impacted, the white house brings them together. none of that appeared to happen in this case.n >> jandweg, director of immigration custom ms t enforcemennk you very much. >> thank you. >> nawaz: voters in seven states went to the polls yesterday in the latest test for both parties ahead of november's midterms. lisa djardins is back with this look at a major upset for one of the highest-ranking democrats in the house of representatives. >> i cannot put this into words. >> desjardins: alexandria ocacio-cortez was speechless after toppling congressman joe crowley, the number four democrat in the house, in the new york primary in queens and the bronx. the 28-year-old democratic socialist, who could become the youngest woman ever elected to congress, was a former organizer for bernie sanders' presidential

campaign and ran on ae progressivatform of medicare for all and shutting down ice -o immigratn and customs enforcement. >> our campaign was focused on just a laser focus mesf economic, social and racial dignity for working class americans. even if you've never voted before, are talking to you. >> desjardins: 10-term incumbenr ley, who was considering a run for speaker of the house, immediately endorsed his opponent. >> at the end of the day this district wl be represented by a democrat. and it's the democratic party that's going to lead this nation forward. esjardins: on capitol hill, minority leader nancy pelosi dismissed any questions of bigger troubles or battles inside the democratic party. >> nobody's district is representative of somebody else's district. it's just a sign of the vitalitp of oarty. we're not a rubber stamp. >> desjardins: but president trump said crowley's loss is a victory for him. writing on twitter: "that is a big one that nobody saw

happening.d perhaps he shove been nicer, and more respectful, to his president!" it was a very good night for mr. trump and his candidates all around. south carolina governor henry mcmaster, who campaigned with the president monday, won a runoff for the republican nomination. >> as president trump says, we will keep on winning, winning, winning in south carolina!>> esjardins: the president's candidate on staten island, ycumbent dan donovan, eas fended off a comeback bid by former congressman michael gedmm who resignis seat in 2015ng after pleadi guilty to felony tax fraud. and prident trump congratulated former adversary mitt romney, who won his party's nomination for utah's seat. the former g.o.p. presidential nominee and massachusetts govern delivered a softer message on one of the president's haline issues. >> we also welcome immigrants and refugees who come here legally. they add to the vitality of our great country. >> desjardins: the nation is now

more than halfway through the midterm primary season, just 'sfour months until novemb elections. for the pbs newshour, i'm lisa desjardins. >> nawaz: we return to our lead story. justice kennedy leaves a powerful legacy on the court, best told by people who served as his clerks, argued before him, or closely folled his edrisprudence. michael dorf cleor justice kennedy. he teaches law at cornell. orin kerr is a law professor at the university of southern california and another former clerk to justice kennedy. ilya shapiro is a longtime observer of kennedy's and the court, and editor-in-chief of the cato institute's supreme urt review. and walter dellinger is a former acting solicitor general who argued more than 20 cases before justice annedy. he's nduke law school. y gentlemen, tha for being

here. walter dellinger, let me start with you.ti you'd ted more than 20 cases you argued before justice kennedy. what do you remember about making those arguments before him? >> well, one of the gre qualities of justice kennedy was that, in many important cases, you knew he was open to be persuaded by cogent arguments so that, i think often, advocates felt he was someone who could be persuaded. i ink he wasn't as sharp a questioner as some of his colleagues, but i think that was offset by a quality of open-mindedness. >> nawaz: orin kerr, you perhaps got to see him in a way the rest of d not. tell me a lilt bit about this mawho, for so many, played such a pivotal role in some of the biggest issues of our time. did those issues weigh on him? >> he certainly thought carefully and deeply about the issues that the court wasns ering and, as walter dellinger just noted, i think he had more of an open mind towards

the direction that the law should go than some other justines. somethat frustrated people on both sides, he was not a reliable vote for one side or another, but rather a justice who had come and considseered eh n its own and reached his own view about what the constitution should mean. >> nawaz: ilya shapiro, you have been watching the court, would you consider him a moderate voter, largely conservative over the course of his career. how will that change ahead? >> kennedy's been called the libertarian justice, probably a low bar, but the way he sees cases coherent within, i guess, his own issue areas but conventional terms about religionism or progressismr how you want to call it. so whoever replaces him won't be like t it's going to be from trump's list, all are originalists and texiewlists, what some might

call conservative or libertarian to some extent but a more conventional style of rubric. so thie will movthe court what conventionally is called to the right on many issue areas whiche s john roberts, the chief justice, would also be the man in the middle and, so, jn roberts will be ever more powerful. waz: michael dorf, you also knew him as a former clerk. thpe issue of legacy, forple who serve on the highest court in the land, it comes up often. i wonder if you think that's something justice kennedy he was making some to have the biggest decisions and how is departure would affect that legacy. >> i think he considered the long-term implications of all his decisions. he was thinking abtht considerin cases before him. unlike sandra o'connor who was sort oa swing justice, i don't think he thought just in terms of the case before him and

decide on rrow grounds so he thought about legacy. his biggest legacy was in the lgbt rights area, but there are all sorts of cases he will be known for. for instance, the decision that extended the right of habeas corpus to non-citizens outside the technicajurisdiction of the united states. g was fundamentally a justice who didn't want stuck on technicalities, and whether that spirit survives will really depend on where the court goes and as ilya says on whether chief justice roberts goes in the near term. >> nawaz: ilya, some of the votes that potentially surprised a lot of people from justice kennedy, like the 2015 same-sex marriage vote, he was the deciding vote t hre as wele also voted to uphold abortion rights precedent, which was not necessarily a conservative position. it's likely and fair to assume that the next nominee will beat more consee, perhaps. so could some of justice kennedy's legacy in those decisions be undone?

>> it depends on the issue area. on affirmative action, racial preferences, only once, the most recent casesher vs. u.t. austin, did he vote to uphold use of racial preference in admissions. even though he voted against other programs, he refused to d slam tr on doing that. presumably the next nominee will be more in line we have ben john roberts who said the way to stop racial discrimination is to stop discriminating based on race. on abortion i'm not certain itju take replacing kennedy torn overlanned parenthood vs. casey and rowe. john roberts is a more yondamentalist. have to look ate issue by issue. there will be moreti transfors, but doesn't mean every case in the last five or ten years where kennedy joined with liberals that it now is all of a sudden in play or be overturned. >> nawaz: let's look at the issue of abortion, been coming i

conversations since justice kennedy announced his departure. what do you make of that?i is there a p it could come up with a more conservative nominee moving forwardhat justice kennedy's previous decisions could be undone? >> well, if president trump succeeded in nominating and confirming a justice like justice gorsuch, i think i would be an enormous change in the consequence of the courtat. to with abortion, there are only four justices on the court that, i think, would isn't roe v. wade or even planned parenthood vs. casey. justice kennedy was the key vote to strike down regulations that, in his view and in the view ofma thority, had no metical basis that would have closed virtually every clinic in the state of texas a so i thi justice who agreed with justice gorsuch, a new justice would be the firth vote,

not necessarily to sayhe words row vs. wade is overruled, buteg to allowulations that many think would price and regulate abortion out of the reach of many women. on the issue of gay marriage, i don't see them overturning the vote, but i think they could delegitimize marriage by decisions adverse to gay interest on spousal benefits or as.ental rights or other are then i think we're looking at a possible court that would invalidate any kind of progressive economic legislation, so i think that it a truly profound -- i think i disagree a little t with the tone of my friends and colleagues. i think it's a really -- sets the stage for profound change. >> orin kerr, do you think there is profound change ahead in the wake of justice kennedy's departure? >> i agree with walter dellinger, i think there's

likely to be major changes in american law in a way we haven't seen in a long time. it's important to realize justice kennedy has been on the court for 32 years and a centerm vote pretch that entire time. so even though individual cases might be seen to bring the law in a particular direction, that stability of having that same person be the deciding vote or one of the deciding votes s actually relatively stability. i suspect we're about to enter a time of things being much more in flux than we've seen in decades. >> michael dorf, let me ask you about some of your morpersonal remembrances as well with. this is a man who prented himself in a very professional manner on the bench as all thees justo. it was hard to read where he was coming from on some of the issues. a what do you knut how he considered some of the biggest cases, the ones that will now only be really judged by history?v >> he prepareery strenuously for all of the cases the court faced. he would read all of the briefs.

it actually was a bit frustrating to me as a law clerk because, on the court of appeals, typically judges want bench mos, which is law clerk summarizing the briefs, and justice kennedy liked to prepare in my day audiotap where they would have been mp3s in my y, we would have talked about the cases or summarize them as he listened on his way to and from the court, and he would do that in addition to all the reading. as a questioner, i think i know mat walter means when he said he wasn't that sharp, didn't mean he wasn't sharp. he wouldn't try to trick lawyers, he would ask questions of genuine concern, and likely tip his hand as to how he was likely to vote, though not always. in the earlier segment you had marcia coyle saying he wasn't sort of warm and cdly, and i'm sure that's true in his professional manner to layers

and in the courtroom. i wouldn't say cuddl but he was certainly extremely friendly and he has a great sense of humor, kind of a mischievous sense of humor, in fact. >> something we don't hear often about. ilya shapiro, for his place or the influence for all the years on the bench, what's the legacy of justice kennedy?mi >> it'ed. he's not going to be universally loved by eboth or unrsally hated by anyone, i don't think. definitely an iupmportantme court justice. >> michael dorf, orin kerr, ilya shapiro and walter dellinger, thanks for your time. >> thank you. >> nawaz: now, to the african fotion of mali and the ongoing s to preserve priceless records of the past, from the library of the fabled city of timbuktu. the city was overrun in 2012 by al qaeda, who destroyed manuscripts dating back

centuries. the militants are now gone, but the turmoil remains. and time may be running out to save these irreplaceable doments. from timbuktu, special correspondent monica villamizar reports. >> reporter: these people are saving a world of knowlee, a world nearly lost forever. they are digitizing tens of thousands of ancient manuscripts rescued from near destruction tiduring the al qaeda occu of timbuktu five years ago. al qaeda destroyed monuments and libraries that were seven centuries old. the militants implemented lamic sharia law, and banned anything considered "sinful," like the manuscripts, which were seen as pagan writings' many were burnt. despite the deadly conflict, abdel kader haidara naged to save around 200,000 books. >> ( translated ): we smuggled

the manuscripts out very slowly, little by little, little e, over a period of six months. we took them out of timbuktu in four by fours. we brought them to bamako, we also stockpiled them in smallat about five miles outside of timbuktu and took them 375ay miles >> reporter: abdel kader haidara, whose famy also owns an important collection of manuscripts, has digitized 20% of nearly 200,000 documents the originals are kept in this room, classified by family name and year. they deal with myriad subjects: subjects such as astronomy and physics, polit these gentlemen are reading page li page of each book, and they are making notes a summary, on what it says in each page. but time is running out. the books survived for centuries thanks to the dry desert of e mbuktu, but now live in the heavy, tropical clof mali: bamako, mali's capital.

timbuktu and northern mali, still plagued by conflict remains a no-go area. >> ( translated ): thebe is an urgencuse we have used 20% of the funds already, it's a lot but keep in mind we have hundreds of thousands of manuscripts. >> reporter: these books are relics, some date back to the 13th century, and have survived for more than 700 years. this one was a bit damaged by water. the fabled city of timbuktu is an oasis of culture in the middle of the desert for centuries it served as the anin transit point of the saharan caravans here it can feel like time has stopped."n oble houses" of timbuktu have been holding book readings for decades, a sort of ancient version of "book clubs."

the men place books on their forehead, sy transfer of knowledge. and an imam or oth spiritual authority explains the meaning sf the mostly-religious texts. ben essayouti, tkt minister of culture, says the books should return to their city of origin. >> ( translated ): it was the base to spread arab culture and islam to black africa. people came from south africa to here, and others came fr maghreb to bring manuscripts and books, especially to print them, because africa didn't have printers, so everything was copied by hand here. >> repter: but timbuktu is not safe to return. the only way to get there is to fly with the united nations, roads are too dangerous. this city at night, looks lirm any no, city, but if you look right behind me, there is a heavy security presence. these soldiers are blue helmets, the u.n. peacekeeping forces anv theybeen attacked many times before. the soldiers are not the only targets. riccardo maia, the head of the

u.n. mission in timbuktu, had his office attacked by gunmen eight months ago. a bullet wt through here? yes it was supposed to go through my head, instead it went through the map. e well i was lucugh to survive that attack, actually i had stepped out of my office seven minutes before the attack occurred, which i never did at that time, so somehow i was protected, the malians say by god. >> reporter: the u.n. has a rare y'ndate to protect the cit cultural heritage, including the manuscripts. >> they are important because they are a testimony of what has been going on here, that we see today as a remote outpost in thu sahara, nine ces ago when this was a major cultural center. where there was a large university with, teachers and scholars coming fr the arab peninsula. >> reporter: some of the families who owned aptient manuscrirefused to smuggle

them out of the city during the al qaeda occupation of timbuktu. we managed to track one of them and we are going to ask why ty wanted to hold on to the books. haoua toure owns a private library. she fled when al qaeda took over timbuktu, but hid her precious (oks before she left. translated ): we couldn't take the manuscripts with us, the occupation took us by surprise but people had toci what to do. so people started to find ways of hiding their manuscripts, before leaving. when everyone returned then it was time to find them. >> reporter: most of her manuscripts are inside coffers still hidden in an und bclosed locatiause she is not convinced that the city is safe t. but she has unearthed one on tho many chesttart organizing her private collection. >> ( translated ): we know the exact coordinates of every one of our manuscripts, but we can't unearth many of them because it's still dangerous here, so we can't start organizing them yet, they will remain in hidg.

it's really a problem and it's much betr that that it remains a secret for the security of all of us.ou >> reporter: mapha cisee, an archivist and family friend, has started to classify the manuscripts. the writings contain personal records of toure's family, their finances, illness even love affas, so his job is to keep the secret's safe while making the other portions available to the public. timbuktu, a city on the edge of the sahara, is harder to access today than it was centuries ago. and much of its knowledge remains a secret, buried under the sand dunes. for the pbs newshour, i'm monica villamizar in timbuktu. >> nawaz: and finally tonight, ea close out with our monthly segment "nowthis."

that's our special book club in partnership with the "new york times" that many of u have joined jeffrey brown talks with this month's author and announces our pick for july. arthur less is a minor novel is about to turn 50 and about to see his younger lover marry someone else. tit's a vain and very comic attempt to escape everything, told in the new novel called "less," winner of this year's pulitzer prize and our june booc club pk, arthur andrew sean greer joins me to answer questions from you, our readers. welcome and congratulations on the pulitzer. >> thank you, thank you for having me. >> brown: must be a nice >> quite a surprise. >> brown: it's also funny to think about a novel about a novelist who can't accomplish much overanything wins lia er prize. >> it's the irony of the whole thing. it's the last thing arthur would have expected for sure. >> brown: and andrew?

and me, for sure. >> brown: we've got questions from readers. let's look at the first one. >> my name is rhnda brewer, live in d.c. one of the many things i ad about this book are all the travels of arthur less. mr. greer, could y share with us how you got familiar with all these cultures and languages in order to write about them so convincingly and avoid stereotypes? >>rown: so your character is traveling the world, right? >> yeah. w thesen: do you k places? >> i knew some of them from my time as a travel writer, one of my husband also to me a living as a write juror really? >> yeah. >> brown: beforeurning to novels or -- >> well, while turning to novels. >> brown: yeah. make ends meet. so i had been to a lot of the places and began to put them in the book because i took so many notes as a travelriter, and one of my rules for the book was i could only put in detils i had written down in my notebooks because i didn't want it to be about stereotypes. i wanted it to be about what i actually saw, even if it was

unexpected. >> brown: second question. thiss mie pilgrim from chicago. i read somewhere you decided to change the tone of the book while swimmin i'm curious, how long did it take to change the tone from serious to comic? >> brown: help those who haven't read it, was it did originally serious? because it is very funny n.w >> the funny thing is a comedy is usually from a sad story that u just decide to tell a different way. i spent about a year on it as a sort of poignant novel. >> brown: a poison nent novel of aging, of -- >> not about travel, at just felt like another middlaged guy novel and i just thought it was absurd and i realized it wa absurd could write about it that way and while swimming i decided to change it and from there it happened very fast because that was the way into the book. >> really? once you knew that it was a sort of a funhany -- >>it was a funny novel about someone in pain.

>> yeah. okay, let's go to our next question. >> my name is david kessler om oakland, california. since you published you fir book some 20 years ago, society has seen a change in its attitude between homosexuality and gay marriage. less is written with grace, ease an openness. do you think it would he be impossible for you to write a book with those characteristics 20 years agohen you first started writing? >> brown: we didn't say but he's a gay character. >> he is aay character. >> brown: yeah. i tried 20 years ago to write a bookut a contemporary gay life, and i just couldn't do it, couldn't figure out how to write the story, and, somehow, this time, maybe it's the society that's changed. it certainly shocks me to see so many people reading this book about a gay man a traveliund the world and they never talk about that. they talk about him as a character, and that rmoves me. >> brown: it shocks you just that people e reading it about that subject without --

>> yeah, 20 years ago, i think h this woue been in a certain part of the book store, and now it's for everybody, and that really -- it's touching. >> brown: n,ell, so, i mto go to this question, though, a little bit more, he's aski yng w mu see society havingd. chan >> it's changed in some ways and, of course, there's a backlash. so is people come to me at every reading in tears because the book was a sort of vision for them of a way to be happy and be gay or to struggle with your happiness and note strug with trauma. because being gay isn't a trauma, it's way of life. >> brown: okay. one more question or last question for our firstection here. let's take a look. >> my name is elizabeth and i'm from hopewell, new jersey. your book touches on love in so in guises from transient passion to long-urm comfort, and yo seem to believe in the importance of love, but, in the end, most of the relationships

seem to lead to heartache. so i was wondering whether there was a message you wanted to conv r aboantic love and the love between friends. >> oh, my gosh. >> brown: yeah. (laughter) >> i've got to say, i write books because i don't have answers to somehings. these are the questions that plague me. so, in this book, i tried in every chapter to have a diffe.ent kind of lov i would say in every book, i do that, too, so i'm clearly not the guy witantheswers. but i certainly think the relationships, every one of them is worth it, even if they end. and there's one character in morocco who i is asking wh love, and i'm not sure i answer that, but i try to give one possible answer at the end. >> bro going to continue with more questions and post our complete conversation online later. for now, andrew sean greer, thank you for joining us forth and, again, congratulations on the pulitzer. and before we go, let me

announce o book club pick for ly, "pachinko," a family novel perfect for long days at thewi beac ties to current subjects immigrationnd korea. author min jin lee will join us at the end of the month. we hope you will join us in coming weeks on our now read will facebook page. >> nawaz: and that's the newshour for tonight. i'm amna nawaz. join us online and again here tomorrow evening. for all of us at the pbs newshour, thank you and good night. >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by: onsumer cellular believe that wireless plans should reflect the amount of talk, text and data that you use. we offer a variety of no- contract wireless plans for learn more, go toything in consumercellular.tv

>> and with the ongoing support of these instituduons and indis. >> this program was made possible by the corporation for public bro ccasting. and tributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. captioning sponsored by wshour productions, llc captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org elyse: this week on history detectives:

what do these crumbling pages reveal about divided loyalties during the american revolution? i'm just a tzed by the wholehing. tukufu: what role did these records play in the sculpting of america's fixation with fitness? man on record: ready, . gwendolyn: an in an encore presentati was rk by major artists, including andy warhol, smuggled to the moon? man: "a.o.k., all systems are go." elvis costello: ♪ watchin' the detectives ♪ i get so angryta when the teardropsrt ♪ ♪ but he can't be wounded 'cause he's got no heart ♪ ♪ watchin' the detectives ♪ it's just like watchin' the detectives ♪