♪ ♪ welcome to amanpour on pbs. tonight western allies shudder. yet another summit, yet another trump tweet storm of criticism as he flies off to meet nato partners. from brussels, the u.s. ambassador to nato kay byailey hutchison says it is to strengthen nato. do allies see it that way? ♪ ♪ welcome to the program, everyone. i'm christiane amanpour in

london. donald trump arrives in europe today for what could be a tense meeting with nato. as a parting shot, he fired off this tweet about the nato allies' military spending. quote, nato countries must pay more. the united states must pay less. very unfair. this purely transactional approach to the 70-year-old defense alliance is nothing new for president trump, but here are some facts. last year nato allies boosted their defense budget by a combined 5.2%. the combined defense budget of nato nations has grown by $14.4 billion since he took office. 16 nations are on track to spend the targeted 2% of their gros domestic product by the agreed 2024. so, why is president trump still complaining so often and so loudly? here to discuss is kay bailey hutchison, america's ambassador to nato and a former u.s. senator from texas.

ambassador kay bailey hutchison, thank you for joining us. >> thank you so much, christiane, it's great to be with you. >> well, you have seen a lot of u.s. politics, u.s. diplomacy. you spent your whole life in this role really. what do you make of president trump? is he coming again with cuts to aim at his allies? >> i think he's coming to be plain spoken as he always has been. but i think now that the alliance is understanding better suring that everyone is hich is contributing and burden sharing, but also strengthening our new nato command structure, making sure that we are doing counterterrorism, which is something that most of our countries have experienced unfortunately, and he wanted to be a priority. so, i think we are strengthening the alliance and i think that is the message that he will bring. >> so, i wonder, then, how you respond to the european commission president. this is donald tusks' message to

donald trump today. first of all, dear america, appreciate your allies. after all, you don't have that many. and dear europe, spend more on your defense because everyone respects an ally that's well prepared and equipped. obviously the second part you're going to like and the president is going to like, but he's pretty much punching back because president trump has treated these allies as mere transactional cogs in a wheel. >> well, i think that president trump actually has very great respect for our allies. he does think that there should be more because it is a european alliance, along with north america. i think he's been plain about that. christiane, i think that his goal is to make sure that nato is the strongest umbrella for security for all of us. and i think that our allies realize that. and i know that the way he says things sometimes put people off, but he's just trying to make the

point and make sure that they actually do it. now, christiane, you know i served with other presidents and they all said the same thing. i think president trump is saying it in a way that they are now remembering and really turning on the dime and doing better. >> look, i understand. many u.s. presidents and leaders have complained and they want that 2%. obviously the europeans do things that complement u.s. participation in the u.s. contribution. but here's the thing. the tone is what is creating xi extension angst among your nato allies. the taupe of president trump, his language meant that allies could no longer assume that nato will endure. now, that might sound alarmist, but i'm going to play you again a much hacknied sound bite. his first ever comments on nato were not heartening to those who believe in the alliance. listen to this for a second.

>> nato is obsolete. it was 67 years or over 60 years old. it is -- many countries, doesn't cover terrorism. it covers the soviet union which is no longer in existence and nato has to be either rejiggered, rechanged for the better. i'm not saying -- the only thing that's bad about nato, we're paying too much. we're spending a tremendous -- billions and billions of dollars on nato. >> so, there are a lot of faults in that statement, but you can see that those initial comments are still the comments of the president and it does destabilize the allies. they're kind of concerned about it because, you know, you talk about the wales summit in 2014 there was a plan to up the payment. every one except a couple have upped their payments to nearly 2%. >> actually, every ally is going in the right direction 100% or spending more. and i think president trump

emphasizing it in the way that he has is making the allies realize that they really must do more for the strength of the alliance as a whole. and i thought chancellor merkel said it very well to her bundestag that they do need to spend more. they need to step up. and i think she is leading the way toward doing that. and i think much of that is because president trump has just said finally that germany has the capability. they're the strongest economy in the e.u., and they can do more. and i think she has accepted that. and i think people are now going in the right direction and i think it is for the strength of the alliance as a whole. >> and again, not to keep putting you on the back foot, but they have been doing that since 2014. and you sort of portrayed as the allies will realize, that they need to do more, but will president trump realize that the allies are doing a lot?

>> we are a deterrence alliance, and being strong is our best deterrence. that's why i think it's so important that we show that strength, we show that unity so that maybe russia will not consider doing any more probing to look for weak spots in nato. russia is now looking for the weak spots that would divide this alliance. he wants to break it down. that's why we have to stand strong as a major deterrence. >> you know, senator -- ambassador, i don't think a single nato ally will disagree about what you just said which is why they're concerned because they know that vladimir putin is looking for any chink in the western alliance and any chink in your armor. and they see president trump driving those chinks between the united states and the rest of the western alliance. i mean, he comes fresh off doing that at the g-7 summit in canada, and they're concerned that he's next going to see

president putin right after the nato alliance and all this discord is music to president putin's ears. >> i think the discord is music to putin's ears. but i think coming from this summit, which is allied and is strong and is going to increase our deterrent capabilities, but is going to put president trump in a very strong position with president putin. and i think he will be tough with president putin. you know, russia is violating the inf treaty. that's ballistic missiles that could reach anywhere in europe. that is very troubling and i think president trump will bring that up. putin has got to change his behavior, and i think president trump is ready to tell him that we must see a different russia if we are going to have any kind of relationship that will work. and everyone, including nato,

talks to russia. we have the russian ambassador here that we have meetings with periodically to say, you've got to straighten out. hopefully president trump can give that message very strongly to president putin and i think he is one of the people who has the capability to do that. >> and you're absolutely right, he does, he can. he's the president of the united states. and you just said hopefully. the reason we ask these questions is because we're kind of confused. i mean, he made a tweet again today -- actually, he spoke saying that i'm going to nato, i'm going to the u.k. there's turmoil there. frankly, i think my meetings with putin will be the easiest. and people are wondering how to parse that statement. and then when he says, you know, that he kind of believes putin when he says he didn't interfere in the u.s. election and other elections around europe. people are concerned and worried about why it is he hasn't been giving those stiff day marshes

to president putin whenever he could. >> well, i think that he has a strategy. it is kim jong-un. it is trying to deal with iran from a position of strength. and i think he is going to be able to do that with putin as well because i think putin respects president trump as a tough opponent. i think president trump said today he is a competitor. putin is a competitor. well, that's for sure. i mean, look at the things that he is doing that are destabilizing many of the countries in our alliance, with hybrid warfare, with cyberattacks. it's something that we have to approach from strength and i think that's what president trump is trying to do. >> but on a personal note, then, angela merkel is generally viewed around europe uk, arounde

western alliance as a strong dependable leader. for whatever reason, president trump thinks he can tweet against her and people take it as beating up on angela merkel. he says -- he claims he said to her, i don't know how much protection we get by protecting you. you think the american investment, ambassador, in defending europe, in underpinning the nato alliance is worth the expense? >> absolutely. we are so much stronger because we are together. and i think if germany steps up to the plate, which i believe they are in the process of doing -- and i would say that it's under chancellor merkel's leadership. she's been encouraging her own bundestag to step up more and she has a wonderful minister of defense, ursula bundelan. she is a strong minister of defense and she really is pushing germany to make the investments that will make it more capable in equipment and

training and being even a stronger ally. >> so, i'm actually going to be interviewing the defense minister right after your interview. so, i might ask you, then, because she's obviously a very close ally of chancellor merkel who has been going through her own political challenges recently with, you know, her coalition trying to back stab her. what do you make of your own u.s. ambassador to germany publicly stating that his mission is to support opponents of angela merkel and other such people around europe? >> christiane, i'm not going to look behind what another ambassador has said. i'm at nato. i am working for the strength of our alliance. germany is a major part of that. ursula, who you are going to be talking to, is very much a

leader in that respect. i think that she along with the leadership of chancellor merkel, have gone directly to their bundestag and said, we have to do more. and i think the fact that we have so many troops in germany and that is also in our interest as well as germany and nato's interests, all of that together is part of this very strong alliance and commitment. >> ambassador kay bailey hutchison, thank you so much for joining us from nato headquarters. >> okay, thank you. it's great to be with you. >> so, we are turning now to the german perspective. and as we have been discussing, for some reason the president singles out that country and its leader for particular skorn. whether it's about trade, tariffs or meeting nato's defense spending requirements. listen to this. >> we have some that don't, and they'll be dealt with. in particular, germany must demonstrate leadership in the

alliance by addressing its long-standing shortfall in defense contributions. germany has not contributed what it should be contributing and it's a very big beneficiary. far bigger than the united states frankly. >> so, as i mentioned to the ambassador hutchison, ursula, the german defense minister is my next guest. she also is the deputy leader of merkel's ruling party and she is the chancellor's close ally. indeed, she is the only minister to have served in her cabinet since she came to power back in 2005. and ursula joins me now from brussels. minister, welcome to the program. >> thank you so much, christiane. good evening. >> well, there is so much to answer there, but i do first want to ask you the elephant in the room question. why, as the strongest economy in europe, do you not spend your 2% of gdp on your military in germany? why not?

>> well, you have to look at where we came from. we had a long period since reunification of cutting budget. twenty-five long years the defense was lowered because germany as many other european countries thought, democracies are growing around us, and then came the year 2014 when russia annexed crimea and started the war. and three months later we had iraq and syria. that was the turning point when the alliance decided, with president obama, that we should aim to spend 2% of the gdp on defense. at that time germany was down to 1.1%. this was painful. we made a turn around. since then, if i look at the budget for the next year, we just passed in the cabinet, we have raised the defense in real

terms by 30%. and the figures now we're projecting for 2024, a decade after wales, will be in real terms an increase of 80%. i think we are on the right way. >> okay. 30%, 80%, still doesn't amount to the 2% of gdp on your military spending. so, the president will continue to criticize you for that. i guess, you know, my question is what do you make of senator ambassador kay bailey hutchison's description of president trump's loud complaint as a strategy to get you all together and to make nato stronger by having its military's stronger. >> you know, we know as an alliance that we have to modernize. this was clear in 2014 because the security environment totally changed. and we are committed to the 2%

goal. but it's not only about 2% of the gdp spending for defense because this number doesn't say anything about who is contributing what to the alliance. doesn't say anything about capital because you can spend 2% of your defense budget on your defense budget nationally without contributing anything to nato, for example. therefore, i think -- and we agreed on that in the alliance. it's worth to look at two other metrics. our capabilities given to nay toe and contributions to nato missions. i think germany is the second largest contributor to natio missions overall. germany is leading the joint support and enabling the new one now. we are the second largest net pair to nato. so these are numbers that show

that nato is benefiting from the german contribution as we all try to contribute as good as possible to nato. >> okay. let me ask you this question. i also put it to ambassador kay bailey hutchison. this is a sound bite from president trump just this past few days at a rally in montana. he spoke specifically again about chancellor angela merkel. >> and i said, you know, angela? i can't guarantee it, but we're protecting you and it means a lot more to you than protecting us because i don't know how much protection we get by protecting you. and then they go out and they make a gas deal, oil and gas from russia where they pay billions and billions of dollars to russia, okay. so they want to protect against russia, yet they pay billions of dollars to russia and we're the

schmucks paying for the whole thing. >> okay. let me take the first bit first. president trump is saying i don't know what we, the united states, get out of essentially protecting you, germany, you, europe. could you answer that first? what's in it for the u.s.? >> of course, yes. two points. the first one, once in our common history of nato, almost 17 years of nato now, article 5 collective defense has been triggered and that was with the horrible terrorist attack at 9/11. we all stood side by side with our american friends in afghanistan, fighting the terrorists. and we're still there. so this example shows that there is this wonderful promise within the alliance. when one of us is being attacked, we all stand together and defend them.

existing in raf began stan, and the second point is -- and this is more important to me. we're not only a military alliance. we are an alliance that is defending common values. and if you look at the united states, canada, europe, our british friends, all the members of the alliance, we're standing for the rule of law, for democracy, for human rights, and this is what unifies us. this is the important value to defend. and, therefore, nato is way more than just 2% in defense budget. >> and on the other aspect where the president talks about the billions of dollars being spent on this pipeline from russia and basically saying, you pay billions of dollars to russia. will you then be able to stand up to russia if you're dependent on russian energy? and rrnt you having your cake and eating it, too, if you're going to flood those billions

for the pipeline and not putting into nato? >> first of all, this is a pipeline, this economic project started i think back in 2002 or '3. so, way before russia changed its behavior in 2014, so it is a business project that has been started. and it's hard to stop such a business project. if it complies and sticks to all the requirements that it has to fulfill. for example, environmental issues just to name some. so, it is not easy to stop that. but on the other hand, we have a very diverse mix of energy supply. so, the president happens to be worried there is dependency. on the contrary, if there is one person who has been dealing all the time with president putin,

very hard on the issues of the ukraine and the hybrid war in the ukraine, it was chancellor merkel. she was the one together with the french president who brought the ukraine in president and president putin to the agreement, which is a crucial one to keep the situation in the ukraine under control. so we've, i think, shown this balance of showing strength on one hand, on one side to russia and on the other hand, always reminding russia that we have to solve our problems at the negotiation table. that this is better. we've proven that we are able to do that in the right balance -- i think this is something worth to look at. >> what do you hope president trump says to president putin, then, when he meets him a day or two after the nato summit? >> well, i hope he'll come from

the nato summit. we have to send a clear message of unity and resolve, and that he will make clear that we'll never accept the annexation of crimea. this is a violation of international law. and that we see what has gone on in the ukraine, for example. and that there is a possibility to sit down and solve these problems if there is the willingness on the other side really to work for peace. so there are many topics to debate, but the important one is to come from the summit with the strong message of unity. >> finally, you are a close ally of the chancellor. you're deputy leader of her party. how is she taking this constant being a target of the wrath, the anger, the tweets of the president of the united states? >> she's taking it as you know

her, very calm, because she's aware as are all of us, there are enormously serious issues around us. this world is in a difficult stage and there are huge topics we have to deal with. i was talking about russia, but just think about isil and terror. think about migration, movements in africa, fragile countries, governments in africa, just to name some. climate change, poverty, inequality. so, many, many topics we have to deal with as democracy and, therefore, if you just think about these topics, well, you have the ability to become when you listen to the tweets. >> all right. chairman defense minister ursula, thank you very much for joining us from brussels tonight. >> thank you, christiane.

>> and we end our program in a truly wonderful way because we're celebrating good news along with, of course, the whole rest of the watching world. in thailand, all 12 boys belonging to the wild boar football team and their coach have been pulled from caves as far as two miles deep inside the mountain. they had been stranded there for more than two weeks by monsoon. and as they ran low on oxygen and food, fears grew that they may not make it out alive as forecasts called for even more heavy rains. and one thai navy seal died trying to get oxygen to the boys. now, volunteer cave divers from all over the world came to help the thai experts. many of their bosses back home gave all these volunteers the time off for the daring rescue attempt. many of the boys didn't even know how to swim. but the teams took a nine-hour round trip to escort the boys to the mouth of the cave. the rescuers tethered them to

themselves. they swam through swift currents, through muddy water and very, very tight turns. by some miracle today, all, as i said, 12 boys and their coach and the rescuers were finally out. a stunning, nail-biting triumph of super human ingenuity, tenacity and faith against all odds. that's it for our program tonight. thank you for watching amanpour on pbs and join us again tomorrow night. ♪ ♪ ♪ is

"beyond 100 days >> you are watching "beyond 100 days" and it is a very good in thailand. >> the rescue operation was dangerous but the boys didn't panic and the divers performed her locally. >> no one could contain their glee as ambulances brought the remaining boys to a hospital. >> no one thought we could make it. but we did. was a first for the world. >> brett kavanaugh has been on capitol hill to woo senators will decide whether this man will be america's next supreme court justice. >> also, theresa may gathers her new cabinet