tonight anger and outcry, president trump flies into a barrage of criticism at home, from even his closest allies. because of siding with russia overcharges moscow had in the 2016 election. richard joins me from new york. he served democratic and republican presidents in top national security positions and he's long been raising the alarm about russia. plus, are you stuck in a good job yet wondering what's the point? well, you're not alone says author and anthropologist david graver and he's here to explain the meaning behind meaningless work. ♪ ♪ ♪

>> welcome to the program, everyone. i'm christiane amanpour in london. after a year and a half of donald trump's leadership, we all know the script. the president says something outrageous. his opponents howl. his supporters unite behind him. but when donald trump stood side by side with vladimir putin in helsinki and backed him over his own intelligence agencies, that seemed to be a bridge too far. and 17 hours after landing back at the white house today, donald trump came out to defend himself. >> i have felt very strongly that while russia's actions had no impact at all on the outcome of the election, let me be totally clear in saying that, and i've said this many times, i accept our intelligence community's conclusion that russia's meddling in the 2016

election took place. could be other people also. a lot of people out there. there was no collusion at all. >> right after that press conference in helsinki, some of his supporters stuck to the usual play book in the face of the backlash. here was sean hannity on fox speaking to the president right after he came off that stage with president putin. >> you were very strong at the end of that press conference. you said, where are the servers? what about what peter strzok said? where are the 33,000 e-mail s? >> but elsewhere on the cheer leading fox news, not everyone toed the line. host kneneil cavuto called the president's performance disgusting. take a listen. >> u.s. president on foreign soil talking to our biggest enemy or adversary or competitor, i don't know how we define them these days, is essentially letting the guy get away with this. and not even, you know, offering

a mild, a mild criticism. >> here's president trump's own director of national intelligence, dan coates. he said, quote, we've been clear in our assessments of russian meddling in the 2016 election and we will continue to provide unvarnished and objective intelligence in support of our national security. and several republicans in congress criticized president trump, including adam kinzinger, an air force veteran, and will hurd, a former cia agent. >> i think trump, president trump was wrong yesterday in a major way. and i think it was a very embarrassing press conference. >> having the u.s. president side with, with putin over u.s. intelligence is just unacceptable. >> at the heart of all this controversy is president trump's refusal to acknowledge that russia attacked the 2016 presidential election.

no one knows more about the dangers of cyber warfare than my guest tonight, richard clark. he was counterterrorism czar under presidents clinton and bush, and he's written numerous books on terror and cyber threats. richard clark, welcome to the program. thanks for joining me from new york. >> good to be back with you, christiane. >> so, just take us to where you were as you must have been watching along with the whole world that press conference in helsinki alongside vladimir putin. and it was an american journalist, two, in fact, who put direct questions to the president and to putin over this highly controversial affair. >> well, what was remarkable about it was he knows that what he was saying isn't true, and he knows we know what he was saying wasn't true. this is not just him talking about tax policy or health care. it's him talking about the fact that america was attacked, its fundamental democracy, its

institutions were attacked. and he is now, again, part of a cover up of that fact and it is an a cover up that can't succeed because we all know the facts, most of them. bob mueller clearly knows more and he's letting us know what he knows in bits as these indictments come out. but the congress knows. the republicans in the congress know. that's why we got the reaction we did yesterday and today from the republicans condemning him for, in essence, covering up or attempting to cover up a russian attack on our democracy. >> you know, we have all -- people have all tried to figure out why it is that the president simply doesn't accept what you've just said everybody knows and that he knows. why do you think it is? i mean, not just from a pop psychology point of view, but can you imagine any factual reason or psychological reason why he wouldn't? >> well, if i were to be kind and bend over backwards and try

to justify it in his mind, it's because he doesn't want his election to be discredited in any way. but it's much more than that. he's clearly acting in a way that he thinks putin wants him to act, and that raises very interesting questions. is it just because he wants good relations with russia? i don't think so. you know, i have been very reluctant to come to the conclusion that he's a controlled asset. that's the term that we use in the intelligence community when we have someone in another government who, for whatever reason, does what we want them to do, because we're bribing them, because we have something on them. he is acting like a controlled asset. >> richard clark, honestly i'm getting shortage of breath as i hear you say that because it is so profoundly worrying and scary, and it starts to put a very clear point on what this

president is doing. and i wonder whether you think that this could be a tipping point, or even if you think that the republicans who have criticized him have done it strongly enough, and enough of them? or do you think this is still sort of what about-ism and will fade once the day or the week fades? >> well, we had press releases and tweets from leading republicans yesterday, but no action. and there are actions that the congress can take. the congress, the senate in particular, could pass a motion of censure. that the' been rarely done, but it is something available to them. we don't have to wait for bob mueller to come out with all the falkts a facts and then go through a year long impeachment process. there are things now that the congress can do. is is a time of testing, and

history will look back on what the republican leaders did now. so far they're not doing much. >> do you go as far as some republicans have done, and even the columnist tom freidman, in describing what happened as a treasonous act? in fact, it was the former, i believe, cia director john brennan who called it beyond crimes and misdemeanors and into the realm of treason and so did columnist tom freidman. >> well, when the former cia director who is a career cia officer of over 30 years service and has served many presidents in both parties as i have done, too, says the word treason, that doesn't come lightly. it's one thing for a newspaper columnist to say it. but when someone who has been cia director says it, you have to think about it. and i thought about it and i looked up the definition of the word treason after i heard him

say that. and it is giving aid and comfort to the enemy. and i think that's what the president has done. he has given aid and comfort to russia, which is our enemy, even though he won't admit that russia is our enemy. you know, the remarkable thing is he won't admit russia is our enemy, but the day before that meeting he called the european union a foe. he's willing to call the e.u. a foe, but he won't admit that russia is our enemy. >> in fact, extraordinarily in the press conference, the president again called vladimir putin and russia a competitor. but then he added, i mean that as a compliment. sorry, go ahead. >> no, exactly. that's the point. he views them as a potential business partner, and he ignores the fact that they have invaded

countries, that they have shot down airlines and that they have attacked our democratic institutions. >> richard clark, while there is a lot of gnashing of teeth and beating of breasts over this, in moscow there are champagne corks popping, to coin a phrase. there is state television bragging about what just happened. there is the foreign minister himself, sergei lavrov, a really smart geopolitical strategist, a veteran of these wars and hybrid wars, who called the press conference magnificent and greater than super. the helsinki newspaper has called it, you know, trump zero, putin one. beyond those obvious sort of reactions from those quarters, is what happened dangerous for the united states beyond just words in a press conference? is there a danger or not? >> well, there is a great danger and i think the russians are unwise to be gloating over this

because the reaction in the united states is building, and the reaction in the united states will come. and it will make relations between the united states and russia far worse than they have been since the cold war. the president said he thought relations were bad, worse than they ever were until his meeting. he forgets the cold war, if he ever remembered it at all. things have been very bad between us, and they're going to end up very bad between us if we go down this road. dan coates, the director of national intelligence who you mentioned, not only said something about russian meddling in our elections. the other day he said, the lights are blinking red. it's like pre-9/11. the russian s are doing things like cyberattacks on our power grid, inserting things into our power grid for future use. that's a situation that we have never had and it is reminiscent of the cold war. >> well, look, you talked about

the lights blinking red like pre-9/11. you were saying the same thing, pre-9/11. you were saying the lights were blinking red and the institutions, the white house didn't believe you. they didn't listen to you. and then we got what we did. one can say that america has still not recovered from 9/11. i mean, you know, how red are they blinking? how bad is it? what will happen if they hack into the power grid, or what else could they do? >> so, dan coates, the director of national intelligence who said the lights are blinking red like pre-9/11, he's a former republican senator, as you know. he's a presidential appointee by this president, and he is saying publicly the lights are blinking red because of russian activity. and he meant two things. one, attacks on our infrastructure, putting things in, getting ready to do something, number one. and number two, they're ongoing, ongoing attempts to affect our

election system. we're having an election in this country of a house and senate in a little over two months. and apparently, according to u.s. intelligence, the russians are beginning to do things as they did two years ago to affect the votes. we have to act to stop that. and if the president won't, the congress and the governors of the states have to act now. >> well, we'll wait to see if they do take your warnings. but i want to put to you the president has been defending himself. the white house has been putting out talking points. and here's what everybody is saying. president trump isn't going to let an excessive focus on the past get in the way of building a brighter future between the world's two largest nuclear powers. of course, they've also blamed the press and the hysteria of the press, et cetera, et cetera. is there anything to be said for what the white house is trying to say, what the president is saying? i want to get beyond this, none

of this happened on my watch. i want to get beyond this and have a good relationship with russia, precisely to rein in their malign efforts. >> this is not just about what happened two years ago. it's about what's happening now. their continuing efforts to influence american politics and the american election system. their continuing efforts to put cyber weapons into our infrastructure. their violation of treaties that we have with them on nuclear arms, such as the inf treaty on nuclear weapons in europe. this isn't about the past. it's about present russian activity. they continue to occupy part of ukraine, a country that the united states guaranteed security to when they gave up nuclear weapons after the end of the cold war. it's not about the past. it's about now. >> we're going to change tracks. do you think the president is hard, you are well right it is. most occupants of this high office, the job does come with a

huge sense of purpose, mission and fulfillment. in our own different and humbler ways, we all seek jobs that deliver a sense of real meaning. after all, we spend the majority of our lives at work. but so many have no such luck, even while earning a decent salary. in his new book, b.s. jobs, and we can't read the entire word out, david greaber at the londo school of economics argues too many of us are working ever longer hours at jobs that are, well, b.s., jobs that exist simply in order to exist and actually damage the employee's sense of self-worth. i sat down with graber to go over his they're and i figure out a plan b. david graber, welcome to the program. >> thank you. >> can you briefly outline your collection of b.s. jobs? >> yes, this is something i got when i asked people to write me in and talk about their most pointless occupations. flunkies, goons, box tapers task

masks. flunkies are there to make someone else look good or feel good about themselves. goons are there, they engage in aggressive activity that is only necessary if your competitor is doing it. telemarketers, p.r. people, corporate lawyers, a lot of these people feel my job is useful for the company, but this entire industry shouldn't exist. all right. go from there to duct tapers. duct tapers are there to fix a problem that shouldn't exist if the company was organized properly. we all know about that. box tickers are there to allow a company to say they're doing something they're not really doing, compliance often does this. and taskmasters makeup for what other people do or supervise people who don't need supervision. >> i want to know whether you think your job as an educator and anthropologist is one of your b.s. jobs. >> well, i think that there is

nothing less b.s. than teaching people things. and my students seem to feel that way. i think most of us feel that teaching is a very real job. you get to see -- i once saw an ad in the subway in new york that said, no one ever called someone up 20 years later to thank them for being such a great financial claims advisor. >> but they did thank their high school teacher. >> right. >> i agree with you, that is one of the highest callings. i want to know how as you were teaching did you come across this phenomenon. did you go out searching for it? did people, students come to you? >> no, it's largely because i find myself in a kind of alien milieux, i don't come from a professional managerial background. suddenly i'm amidst all these people and they're trying to make small talk at parties. i'm an anthropologist. what do you do? often they're apologetic and try to avoid -- it's only after a few drinks you find out they meant it literally, they

literally do nothing. >> interestingly, obviously some of the polls back you up. according to a ugov poll, several britons believe their work makes no contribution. harvard business review says half of american professionals believe their jobs have no significance. okay, so that is very realistic almost. it's very remarkable. >> remarkable. >> right. how does a society propel itself when such huge proportions believe they're engaged in nothing meaningful? >> it's really interesting. the thing that fascinates me why isn't this considered a big social problem? why aren't we talking about this? if that's the way people feel about their jobs? i came to the conclusion there is some kind of taboo, that we feel we should be working and it's better to work even if you're doing nothing than not to work at all. everybody is looking over their shoulders and like wondering if there is somebody getting away with something and not working. and as a result, jobs are the

solution to all problems. you can't say, we're working too much. everybody is always saying we're working too little, we need to work harder. there are some people slacking off, that's terrible. so we've driven ourselves into this situation where we are essentially making up meaningless jobs to make ourselves busy. >> you have said in the past, you said that, you know, one of the other things is that this phenomenon is happening at a time when we see so much corporate pressure to get me and me to increase the profit margin and to slash and burn, slash and burn. >> exactly, yeah. >> go ahead. >> exactly. what fascinates me is that there is this rhetoric of lean and mean, but that applies to people who are productive. if you're there making something, moving something, driving something, fixing something, sure, they'll downsize you, they'll speed you up. they'll tailor ize you. they'll make your life difficult. if you're the assistant to the guy doing of orders, they'll get rid of you for doing nothing.

>> they're actually cutting out the meaningful job. >> yes. >> why is that? it makes no sense. what does your research show? why is that? >> i think part of it has to do with economic policy. a lot of it, i think it's really a result of trickle down. if money does trickle down, you redistribute money upwards by giving tax cuts to billionaires and say you are job creators, go and create jobs. if you give money to poor people, they'll go and buy food. if you give money to middle class people they might buy a car or swimming pool. by the way, employers have to hire people to make that stuff. if you have give money directly to the rich people, there is nobody to buy the stuff so what are they going to do? the easiest thing if they're under pressure to hire people because they're supposed to be job creators, hire a bunch of flunkies to make themselves feel good about themselves. >> it's fascinating. we know there is this real clash between, you know, the divide, the economic divide, the eternally privileged and the increasingly under privileged.

we also know that young people are emerging from college, if they're lucky enough to have gone, and to have taken heavy, heavy loans, be in terrible debt. how does that affect them in terms of the choice of jobs? >> well, it means they don't have a lot of choices. and one of the fascinating things my research revealed, there is an almost inverse relationship between the degree to which your work obviously helps other people, world and suffering horribly. >> get paid peanuts. >> yes.

>> you have written also there is an almost perfect inverse relation between how much your work directly benefits others and remuneration. we talked a little about that. you just said the result is a toxic political culture of resentment. >> yes. >> do you think that to an extent is fueled the last few years of this rise of toxic populism? >> i absolutely do. i think it is something we're not looking at. i think there is a tendency on the part of people in this professional managerial class where often they are doing b.s. or they feel their work is totally pointless to resent people who actually do something either with their hands or make something or teach people or take care of people. why else would it be that after the 2008 crash people actually had to take pay cuts, took a hit economically? the bankers in almost every case in america -- autoworkers, in this country it was teachers. nurses, ambulance drivers, people who were actually helping others. and there seemed to be almost a

resentment that people who get to do something where they can at least feel good about themselves. and at the same time people -- >> and that society needs. not just about feeling good about yourself. >> yes, they feel good about themselves because they're doing something society needs. >> do you have a solution? i mean, you've obviously given a lot of thought to this. what is your solution? how can b.s. jobs be factored out and to get more meaningful jobs that actually help society and help people? >> yeah, and make sure the people are doing meaningful jobs are compensated appropriately because they are doing something think we think the entire system -- i think the first thing we need to do is change our basic sense of value. what is it about work that actually makes it valuable and meaningful? om work entirely because, d t g after all, if 40% of people already feel that their work is totally pointless, even if you let people do whatever they wanted and half of them decided

they wanted to become poets or musicians and a lot of those weren't very good, so what? i mean, how are they going to come up with a worse division of labor than we already have? and even if they're doing something useful, it's something they like. but >> but basic income tried it with very little success. >> it was tried halfway in finland. it was more like an elaborate unemployment scheme. it was tried in india and namibia with great success. actually worked quite well. and there have been programs that worked well. the problem is doing it on a large scale. they have not been able to do that kind of experiment. when they have done it in richer countries, it hasn't really been basic income because it didn't affect everyone. the only place they can have basic income is a place like alaska. it works okay. just give everybody money to alaska, they have a sovereign nd and it distributes money to

everybody who lives there. it's like a subsidy for living in a cold place. >> really? >> yeah. >> and it works pretty gument governments make up jobs to take people off the street. why is that, it's better for them to be employed, right? >> it's better for people to have something to do. i mean, i have nothing against a job guarantee, but i believe a job guarantee would only make sense if it's on top of basic income. if you can't figure out something for yourself to do, if you have basic income it's your choice. i could go to government because i want something i can't think of something to do for myself or i want to take care of my aging grandparents and, therefore, i don't really need somebody to tell me to employ me to do that. i can do that myself. i think a lot of people would have no problem at all thinking of something to do that would be useful for society if they got enough money to live on. other people might not. so, there's no harm in having a program to do that. >> you make a distinction between b.s. jobs and plain s. jobtz. what is the distinction?

>> well, i mean, you know, when we talk about the b.s. jobs, we're talking about bad jobs. we're talking about jobs where they don't treat you with dignity and respect, they don't pay you much, benefits, hours are terrible, inflenxible, whatever it might be. those jobs are useful. if you're a cleaner, at least you know things really do have to be cleaned. you know exactly how bad it will be if they're not cleaned. >> david graber. also a book we cannot name on the air. thank you so much. >> been my pleasure. >> and that's it for our program tonight. after yet another extraordinary day of roller coaster politics in washington, thanks for watching amanpour on pbs and join us again tomorrow night. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> announcer: you're watching ♪

>> you are watching "beyond 100 days" on pbs. donald trump faces a storm of criticism after his meeting with vladimir putin. >> even reliably support of republicans are unhappy with how the president handled the helsinki summit. >> republican speaker paul ryan splits with the president, saying unequivocally that russia is trying to undermine democracy around the world. >> let's be very clear, just so everyone knows, russia did meddle in our elections. they are doing around the world. >> also on the program, the british government lost one vote on brexit legislation but crucially survived another that would have tied it to a customs