welcome to "amanpour" on pbs. tonight the one and only thespian sir ian mckellen. in the theater world it all began for him. he tell us about his life on stage and screen, his gay rights activism and why margaret thatcher was thinking of him during her last moments as prime minister. ♪ welcome to tne program ever i'm christiane amanpour in london. now, all the world's a stage and all the men and women merely players. one of the greatest players who has performed all the b best parts is sir ian mckellen. perhaps a younger generation knows him most as the

screen superhero, is the "onderful wizard gandolf in l d "lord of the rings or as super villain magneto in x-men but his heart and craft belong on stage in the theater. he made his nam with shakespeare and he has never left him. 79, he is taking on one of the most profound old men in histity, king lear. a stamina busting role request ever there was one. to quotule yet, parting is such sweet sorrow because he might be packing it all in after a final 100 performances as lear. i tried to g to the bottom of his intentions as he guided me around a specially tailored duke of york theater here in london. >> this is the lear lounge where you're going to be ablo eat before the show. >> very nice. >> have a snack. and where during the performance we are busy changing.' this is lear bed. >> yeah. owd this is h you can get onto

the stage. >> oh, my goodness. isn't it beautiful. >> and the understudied. >> oh, my gosh. >> so with apologiesor interrupting the sunday study's rehearsal, here is ourdi ussion with sir ian mckellen, about his life, his career and his activism for gay rights. >> welcome to the program. >> thank you. e' >> so sitting in the bar of the duke of york's theater. this is aciery s theater to you. >> it is. it's right in the center of london and it's where i made my first professional performance as an actor. so 1964, i remember it with enmous affection. others remember it because it's the first theater that ever produced peter pan on stage. and then for actors it's prec tus particularls room where we are now, the bar. this is whe our union, equity was founded in 1930. >> we're going to have a look. there's a plaque on the wall there. >> yes, this is a copy. >> when we got up to look at

is historicdeclaration, we saw the signaturesf o all the greatest names to have trod the board. >> it's basically saying we have the right to say we'll only work with other union people. at today would be illegal. you could not say that. >> really? >> yeah. that's how they're trying to break our union. >> equity is still going strong but what about mckellen's commitment to the barred? >> so i've waited a few minutes to get to the bombshell that this isbe going t your last shakespeare. >> is it? >> that's what you say. >> so i'm supposed to have said. i don't know really. >> so it might not be? if you spend a lot of your life doing shakespeare and you joy it and are successful at it, certain parts occur to you. and most othe arts that i would like to have played i have done. i've missed a few, but and all my age, that's left really a the really old men, the king who

is over 80. >> what ist i about lear that is so compelling as you say for somebody maybe of your o age but nonetheless so compelling and the critics have written if you did say this is going to be your last shakespeare that it expands to reason this particular play would b the last one you chose. >> there was a great actor ralph richardson film and stage star who said in his typical wry witty way, you get out of bed, it's a beautiful day. the birds are tweeting. the sun's in the sky. your wi's being nice to you and nothing could go wrong and you find you got your foot caught in a lear. and i sometimes think how did thpp . well, it happened because people expect you to do it and you expect it o yourselfn a sense and that's why i came to play it for the royal shakespeare mpany ten years ago. we've made the duke of york smsler than it ind taken out the last ten rows of seats so

everyones clos why should they be close? so they can hear the words exactly and they can see there's a wonderful moment at the end of the play when lear is running out of life and his breath is going. and he says to another character quite quietly, pray you, undo this button. thank u, sir. and then he dies really. most the last word he says is button. this great, great tragedy, something as ordinary as a button. and i'm convinced that in the theaters that shakespeare's plays originally were performed, everybody coo see the button. see what i mean? if you can see the button as you can in the duke of york, you can also see the eyes. >> you'rebviously really in touch with the audience and in touch with learning new things about the plays and being heard and once you said, this was about performing in e main

hall of bolton school. >> yes. >> where you went? th required experimenting with being audible above the constant squeal of 800 bottoms shifting on 800 rush button chairs. >> that's right. > frank green, i don't know who he is wasright. if you can't can be heard, you can't act on stage. >> yes, that's true. yes, he was the man who directed our plar each and weid them in this hear large hall. >> how old were you? >> 14, 15, 16, 17. i played shakespeare and other plays, too. well, audability, it's obvious, isn't these days, i don't want to be an old man complaining but on broadway, for example, in new york and even in london and even at the national theater, center of excellence in british theater, microphones are employed so that the actors can tbe heard or sot the actors can act in an intimate way in a large space. well, i would rather be in a small space in an ierimate space no shouting is required and where you can speak as we

are speaking now. >> the play is also, basically, just about every school child o goes to a decent school will read king lear up to o level or something. >> what a dreadful thing to have to do. >> it's great. >>he plays are not meant to be read except by the act issues who read ts. li they were meant to be heard. audience. >> why t do you thinkn because most of them have just read them, maybe we hpo the unity to see wonderful plays and great actors but how do you account then for the enduring quality, the enduring attraction of shakespeare? re because ts so much in every scene of a shakespeare play which is relevan to life, living. humanity. of course, there are things that are outdated now like kings and queens buthere are president who's do have power and there are tyrants andshakespeare's very, very interested in people who have power and wants to tell you what they're really like and

what a dangerous thing it is to have too much power and kings clearuch a man. a very foolish man. he says it of himself. he makes some silly mistakes. he's not a cruel man. he hasn't killed peoase as far e can see, but he doesn't know how to deal with his daughters. is -- we don't hear about mrs. lear. but people come and see this and say, you are exactly like my grand dad when he was dying. he went went a bit dotty too or somebody came from america and said it's all about trump, isn't it? i don't get that tul. it an audience brings t their own life and they measure theirwn experience, family experience or politics, whatever their interest is a match it against the experience of the characters that they're seeing act out their story. that's the way in which you'r engaged. and shakeeare remains

persistently modern, contemporary, and that was his genius that he knew more about us han any other person who eved lihether we were a servant or a dictator, whether main or a womanper whatever we hd to be, he knew. >> honestly, it is incredible you should say that because everybody now is feeling in a state of heightened political anxiety. there's so much anxiety around the world. an author who isoc ated also was harvard university, steven green blat has written a book, a piece of work called "the tyrant and his ."enable he takes richard iii as his case study and it's obviously a very thinly disguised attempt to make richard iii into donald trump. u have played richard iii notably in the you know iconic film version ofit . do you see that? >> no. >> at all? >> i don't. t i wouldn't contradict

somebody else who did. they are both kings. what does conne them i suppose is an innate inadequacy. richard iii had a dreadful mother in that she gave birth to a child who was physically deformed and says to his face later in life, i've always hated you. from the moment i conceived you and from the moment you were born, i've hated you. i don't think you can say that to your baby and expect him to grow up to be a normal loving person. he's discovered hate at a very early age. what it is in trump's background which makes lying so easy i don't know. but i would make that connection that you could delve into the back story of a president or a king and find that that was the most relevant source of truth abt them.

trump has the whole world at his feet and he contacts them through television. i mean, he's a television rformer. that's the only success he's really had is fronting a regular program which is a mock program. >> you're talking about "the apprentice." >> "the apprentice." there's nothing ally at stake there. it's television fiction. and he learned from that how to get people's attention and he succeeded. he rivets our attention as we try to understand. and my fear is that in trying to understand eventually we wl become sympathetic and say, well, bless him. maybe he's right. and thus as affection >> do you think twitter is like his theatrical stage?en if i can ea metaphor. >> he's so illiterate, and he is

displays inadequacies every time he opens his mouth, i'm afraid, and every time he sweets. >> everybody is enslaved by this -- this unique purveyor and user of the twitter platform. >> well, dictators and leaders have taken advantage of the mass media ever since it was available to them, whether it was the heradio,er it was advertising or whether it was now television and film, as well. he's the master of the television. you have to grant him that. he's realized that. if you constantly feed st,ething t will be gobbled up and his name will be talked about and i think that's perhaps his main aim. it seems to me as an outsider that what he enjoys most in life is not power but fame. >> so gettg back to you as an actor then, the shakespeare la scstanley wells sees your

hallmark sort of youcte a questing always looking to experiment with the details of performance, regarding as your chief strength an abily to communicate emotional complexity and a troubled inwardness. is he right? >> well, i think i like doing shakespeare cause it's difficult and it's complicated. and that the actor's job is to absorb those complications into mself so that then they can be very clearly expressed to an audience who can then deal wh the information they're being given. nkdon't know. i don't go to a sh i don't know how i work. why do these wonderfully complicated characteristics appeal to me? i think because they're y nderfully and complicate written and if i respond to

words and think words are very important. hence tweeting, i don't much value. g >> how does then, do you do it for fun do you equally respect the movie profession, the movie craft as you do the on stage theater t?cr because you have gone global and stntospheric in your ren by playing movies by playing gandolf, by playing, is it magneto in x-men? >> well, i wouldn't be the first actor to caricature our business as you do films for money,ou do television for fame, but the real thing is acting in the theater. and what's real about it is the presence of the audience, of course. so it's a sred experience. if there's no audience, there's no play. if thereo audience, there's still the film. it just rolls on. it dead in a sense.

audience cannot affect the outcome. but in the theater, ye they can stop a performance with applause. they can make their experience audible to the actors. which we. reli i want my breath which starts down there to pass across the veryar intimate of one's body out along through the airways measurae onto the eardrum of the audience and there is a direct communication. that is life. that's people meeting each other. and it's not available to you you're acting for the camera. >> okay, well i'm going to play some clips. >> are you? >> through fire and water from the lowe dungeon to the highest peak i fought him. >>ell, you see, yes, look, i'm s

noting that cinema is a waste of time and what thrilling things that you can do in the cinema and you can be actually there, it appears. you can be in middle earth. it never existed but you can be there. well, that is thrilling. and you cheebable on the stage you would say. no becau in the theater, the audience uses its imagination. into one of the things so many people appreciate about you apart from your acting, i your activism that you have been brave enough come out as gay on radio 3 in 1988, you came out, and it was a question by the radio interviewer who saidy did u want to see article or clause 28 disappear. >> sir,ou would just like to see clause 28 disappear all together. >> i certainly would, yes. i think it's offensive to anyone who is like myself >>homosexual nd that clause was a prevention, a ban on schools i

believe promoting or explaining an you know homosexuality. >> isn't it interesting, i would never use homosexual. gay i wouldsay. i was learning how to be involved in politics i suppose. i havenot quite the language but i was 49. what's brave about coming out at 49? well, he suppose at a time when much activity for gay people was illegal in the country. the expectationas that you would lose your job or the respect ofthers including friends and family. if you came out. none of that happened to me. my film career took off when i came out. >> but you say that n hollywood, lgbtq representation is very low even tugh "half of hollywood is gay." >> well, i may have said that some years ago. i mean i'm constantly reading about young actors proud to say

they're gay because they've own it, they've been through school and college where their very muchity has been accepted. why at the outset of their career should dey startying it. what a stupid thing to do. >> hollywood is not knowing being at the sharp edge of change. this is maybe a long time ago,o but said they're not really known for their certainly commentary. they only recently discovered there were black people in the world. hollywood has mistreated women throhout history and gay men don't exist. >> yes, well there was aime ether he that was truth and hollywood is in the business of a fantasy about the world. not the real world. you knit, i v schools quite a lot. i'm very lucky to do that and i'm allowed to go in quite contrary to that dreadful sectio28 that weot rid of. it is now the against the law in british schools to discriminate on grounds ofsexuality. so suddenly schools are now having to talk about what it is to be gay and understand it.

and that's good because there are gay teachers. there are gay parents. there are gay children. there are gay govaynors and visitors like me. and as i talk about the past when it was illegal to make love to someone of the same gender the jaws of the kids drop open. they cannot believe the word i'm talking about into i want to pick up on what you said. you visit schools. you've also been to oxford and talked about all sorts of things had there. my producer ben who is here and who helped me with this research d hles a young man speeches. standing up. he wants to ask you a question and he just came out to you. >> you'll make me cry. yes. yes. he came out. he was like the revivalist you know, billy graham, come forward and you'll be save and i suppose i'd been speaking so positively about my o perience of being an openly gay man that he felt this was e moment for himo join in. and he came out.

of course, we see a huge reception. i've had a better case. i was at a school once and say, you know, everyone's worried about coming out because they're worried about people's reaction. i said there are gay teachers in your school n who care not come out because they're frightened your what rction will be. that's why there isn't a singlem openly gay in your school here. >> a man stood up and said i'm staff here and i'm gay which he never said before. kand 1300 kids l around and applauded hill. that was his coming out pe ence. total acceptance. >> you're the first openly gay man to be knighted by the queen. >> seco, second. the first was angus wilson, the nevillt. >> but mou were the first openly gay famous person. >> well, that was signf the times. my year as an actor which was thout to be worthy of

knighthood could not be. i pedded by the fact that i said i was gay. and i'll tell you a story. it's rather long so you won't be able to include but i was playing richard iii in paris havingbr kfast, croissant and coffee in my single bed watching a screen which had 10 downing street on it because this was the day that mrs. nacher was resigning as requirements and we were waiting for her toemerge. the phone rang and said this is downing street. i said yes this is fun assuming it was a member of the company. why don't you d comen and we'll have our croissant together. no, no, this isng dow street. i'm sorry. the prime minister has been trying to get hold of you because she wants to mo if you would accept a knighthood from the queen. i said, ohyes. all right. i'll think about it. and i put the phone down. and as i did that, the door of downing street opened and out came mrs. thatcher famously crying. and i thought, my go she's been waiting behind that door to

know whether'moing to accept a knighthood before before actually resigning being prime minister. the very, very last thing she did was to give me a knighthood. of course, she was a supporter of section 28. but that was anndation to me that the world actually was changing. >> that is >> and she could not control it. >> but what about those backlash winds? are you concerned that the very socially conservative supreme court justice just nominated by president trump justice kavanaugh could do things like reverse roe versus wade but also gay marriage? >> yes, well, that's the system you have, isn't it? i'm much more frightened of the words and beliefs of your vice president wit t regardo people like me. i gather hed thinks i sho go somewhere and be cured. i believe he can't trust himself to be in a room with a woman on his own. that's a disturbed person who

should not be in c anytrol of situations. i think perhaps judges are a little bit more temperate than that. are they? i don't know. it is,f course, worrying. that's just the system that you have. >>ak au aware when you put your cross what you're voting for. t what about the idea tome of these gains are not necessarily. >> could be temporary. >> yeah. >> well,ay some people to me, ian why do you go on and on and on abo it? because i get asked about it. the other reason ifon you go on about it and take your freedoms for granted they won't neceitarily be you forever more. so yes, but youknow, the gay rights movement began for m in san francisco right in. >> harvey mill. >> harvey milk and maupin the author who talked to me about coming out long ago when i was on tour there. the unitestates is a very

large place, and there are renters of excellence and are centers where. >> and stovall which is new york, the name of the activistg zation you cofounded. as you just opened king" "le here in londoner in the theat where you did your first ever performance, what did you feel all these years later? >> i suppose two things. one is that i'm much, much better jt the than i used to be. the only advantage of seeing yourself on screen years later is to say, well, i was no good but if i did it again now, i'd be better. and that is partly the aim and the inevitable aim for me of doing 100 lears i a row is that the 100th is going to be more insightful than the first, you knows? i learn night by night by night. it used to be doing a matinee of

eight shows a week i would peep through the curtain to look at theemudience tod myself why we are there. we are doing itpl for p who have never seen it before. the fact i've done it a score of tis is irrelevant. i must make it fresh. it must be live. usually my eye would chance on a kid o 14 or . why were they there? who brought them? did they come on their own as used to when i was there. >> it is for them i do it, for the ale a 14-year-ol i was rewarded the other night coming out duke the yatk t and there was such a little boy. i think he brought his parents. i think he wanted to see gandolf. butki he sa "lear.." . >> they're not that different. >> well, they're bot old. so you know, the -- it's, of court's a thrill to play to

old people like myself, peoplen who have sany king lears. and feel they still haven't got it. they want more. but then to capture the mind and the heart and affect the lifea f young person and that they discover liv theater ear on, i think that's what gives me the most excitement. >> well, and you give that excitement back. >> thankou. >> sir i mckellen, thank you so much for being here. what an inspiring man. that is it for our program tonight. thanks for watching and join us again next time. >> you're watching

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