welcome to the program. ahead, is this the film that will finally win glenn close an oscar? this new literary movie, "the wife," is a devastating look at sexism, creativity and a marriage under strain. my conversation with glenn close and her co-star jonathan price. ♪ ♪ ♪ welcome to the program, everyone. i'm christiane amanpour in london. from hollywood to wall street and points in between, misogyny and systemic sexism is being outed everywhere we look, which is why the new drama "the wife"

starring six-time academy award no, ma'am any glenn close and jonathan price feels particularly poignant and relevant. based on the novel by the best-selling author meg, the wife centers around a writer who spent her life overshadowed by her husband's own literary career and massive ego. take a listen to this trailer. >> am i speaking to mrs. -- >> my wife to get on the extension. >> hello? >> it is my great honor to talk to you. you are chosen to receive the nobel price in literature. >> this isn't some great big fat joke. >> no, real, darling. really. >> welcome to stockholm. >> we are so delighted to have you here. >> i came across some of your stories in the college journal beautifully written. >> she is a heavy hand of a teacher. >> he encouraged you to keep writing? >> so, this goes to the heart of

women's careers traditionally taking a back seat and it is already gaining oscar buzz. in fact, glenn close is the living actor with the most oscar nominations never to have won one. she has played everything from super villain to fan fatale. she still feels like an outsider. though jonathan price has won two tonys, at acting school he was told he would never amount to much of to them as they join to talk about this new work from new york. welcome to both of you, glenn and jonathan. welcome to the program. >> thank you. >> hello. >> it is a tour de force from both of you and it is, as a woman, i have to say, it really, really, really hits a nerve and it hits a point. you know, not giving away anything except for that --

character, joe, wins the nobel prize. you, glenn, your character joan, doesn't and yet you are a writer yourself. so, first and foremost, what drew you to this role, glenn first, where you are a woman in the shadow of her incredibly accomplished and creative husband? >> well, it was all-new, a psychological emotional territory for me. and there were a lot of questions i had going in, so i thought the challenge was enticing, and i thought it was a beautiful script adapted from a wonderful novel. so, and i met bjorn runga and felt that we would be in great hands. >> jonathan, how did you feel about the role? >> well, the role itself is something that was very attractive to me, to play a man with an enormous ego and have,

you know, a public image. and what the film examines is how he came to be that enormously famous, accomplished man. and whether it was all his own doing. i was attracted initially to the script itself, which i think is very intelligent, very spare economical script, telling very interesting story, a new look at a long-lasting relationship. as glenn said, i met bjorn and liked him enormously, liked his films. watched two of his swedish films. and it was always a prospect of working with glenn, which was even more attractive in playing a man with a big ego. >> you know, i'm interested. did you both find the creative tensions as interesting as the marriage tension or the evolution of a relationship? was it the personal or the professional that was the most

significant here, or could you not sort of separate them? >> well, it's an amazing portrait, i think, of a very complex relationship, and so i think it's very hard to separate the two. but it's interesting, we've seen it three times, i think, together with an audience and we each came away last night with new kind of revelations. what jonathan told me last night was that in the beginning, joan, my character, says to the young joe, don't leave me, please don't leave me. and in the end it's the older joe saying to joan, don't leave me, please don't leave me. >> it really does come full circle, doesn't it? it really is incredible. so, let's take it a little bit chronologically. we saw in the trailer where you both were so happy, the two of you. an audience would be given to think that, you know, you the

wife were just so thrilled when your wonderful creative husband was called by the nobel committee and told that he won the nobel prize. and then fast forward to when you get to stockholm and you're having this cocktail -- and we're going to play the clip where you, joe, are talking about joan and explaining to a fellow nobel winner what just happened. >> my wife, thank god. otherwise i'd suffer from permanent writer's block. >> i don't think you can ever get their approval. >> who? >> the men, the ones who decide who gets taken seriously for a writer. >> that's a bit of a mash up from the trailer. but that poignant moment when you're introducing your wife, i mean, i felt something. what did you feel then, glenn? >> i felt invisible. and i think that's a very real

thing for spouses of famous people, to be made to feel invisible either by the people who approach those famous -- that famous spouse or by the spouse themselves. it felt like a very real situation to me. >> did either of you have any sort of experiences like that in your real lives? glenn, have you felt overshadowed by a husband or partner or co-star? >> um, well -- [ laughter ] >> i mean, the obvious, but no. well, i think in some ways for me it's almost been the opposite. to be a successful known around the world for my work, it's been extremely difficult to find a partner who can deal with that. >> and i have a partner, now wife, and it works both ways. i think the last thing that kate

ever wants to do is, you know, when you're going to functions like we've been doing the last few days, going to premieres and that particular person that in this case me is in the spotlight, and everyone wants to talk to you. your partner, be it male or female, always gets shoved into the background, and kate stopped going. she didn't come on this trip. >> it's hard. >> you don't want to be the wife. you don't want to be the husband. >> ihonestly, i think it's so interesting, that, you can never satisfy either, either the star or the person who is not necessarily the star because it's just always a little bit difficult. just quickly, jonathan, you and your wife are both actor/actresses, right? >> uh-huh, yeah. >> and, glenn, you particularly don't want to be called an actor. we hear a lot of women now calling themselves actors, but you call yourself an actress. is there a reason for that? >> yes, because i think for some

reason -- well, i think maybe actor is supposed to be generic. i guess that's where that came from. but i don't want to ever feel that actress is less because there's two ss. when i first started i told my parents i wanted to be an actress. they thought it would be bad for my character. that's very victorian. so, yes, i purposely say actress because i'm a proud to be female and i'm proud to be an actress, but i understand the generic use of the word actor. >> i feel the same about actor/actress. and i think if you now start to adopt actor as the all -- cover-all title, you're denying history. you're saying that those people who were called an actress in the past weren't actually as good as the male equivalent. >> that's what i feel. >> yeah. >> it is an important point to make. obviously it's not lost on

anybody that this film is coming out at this particular time, almost a year after the #metoo movement was started, after holly was turned upside down by the overt violence and sexism, of course. are you getting a lot of reaction, both of you, to the times in which this movie is coming out? >> oh, absolutely, because i think this movie fits right in there in two different ways. i think it took 14 years for a movie called "the wife" to be made, written by the screen play by a female based on a novel by a female. so that's in itself -- we had a female, a rosemary was the main producer, many, many other female producers. so for me it was hard to find an american actor who would be in a film called "the wife." and i think it really is -- i

bow to jonathan that he saw the value of this script and how -- what a magnificent part the husband actually was. he did say he would prefer if it was -- >> did you, jonathan? >> well, you can't have a wife without a husband. that's for sure. and i think it's a kind of coincidence that it's out now because this was something, the original screen play was 14 years ago. but these issues of male/female power relationships go back to time immemorial. one of my first plays that i did in liverpool that i directed and later acted in is taming of the shrew. we used that play as a vehicle to show the inequalities in

male/female relationships. you know, if something is right for its time, it becomes relevant to any period in which you watch it. >> and, again, it's so interesting that this is based on the novel by a female writer, as you mention. her name is meg wirlitzer. i interviewed her about "the second shelf" which is precisely what another seriously. let's play a clip with my interview with meg on this particular issue. >> i went to a book party years ago and i opened the piece this way. a man i met there asked me to sort of tell them about my books. i described them as being about family, marriage, sex, different issues. after i talk about it he said, oh, you should meet my wife. she'd be interested. and he kind of got out of there as fast as he could. he wanted nothing to do with me,

as though those issues were particularly female. >> i mean, it is extraordinary to hear that, isn't it, from the horse's mouth so to speak? >> of course, you look back to the brauntes who published their first book with male names as they wouldn't be taken seriously as women. so it's gone on for a while. >> it certainly has. now, let's get back to the film and to the struggle between husband and wife and it's sort of portrayed a little bit or so in the struggle between your son who is a writer and who is desperately seeking his father's approval. and there is a scene in a car as you are on your way to an event. let's play it and we'll talk about it. >> jesus. >> not easy being your son. >> oh, come on. it's not easy being anyone's son. >> you could act a little prouder of him. >> he could work a little harder.

we wouldn't be doing the kidney favor telling him he's brilliant. >> i think he has talent. >> yeah, well, you should tell him. >> doesn't mean anything coming from me. he has to hear it from you. >> he shouldn't need my approval to write. >> everyone needs approval, joe. >> there are so many things to unpick there, but tell me about approval, jonathan. what is approval, the seeking of approval meant in your career? >> well, i think of approval as encouragement really. and i've had a lot of encouragement in the later part of my career. throughout my earlier life, when i was at school and every educational establishment i went to, i was told i was nothing and i would never do anything with my life. by head masters and teachers and even my tutor at the royal academy where he was studying who told me i would only be good enough to play villains on tv

show called z-cast. i didn't take it on as something i had to fight against them, but it's something i think that happens to you unconsciously. if you have a glimmer of confidence in yourself, this will grow from this discouragement. but it's very pertinent, that side of the story to do with my son, because i'm the father of two sons and a daughter. and i think it's fortunate that the one who's followed me into mothers and father's profession is our daughter. i think that makes our relationship easier somehow. but we're not in competition with each other. i'm glad this theme is exposed in this film. >> yeah. >> it's an aspect of a long relationship, as we say, but

this film is about a family and how they cope with all kinds of things. >> and, glenn, your daughter, talking about offspring, is actually in the film. and she plays the young you, which is incredible. but to go back to the son in the film and how he is the one who kind of opens the floodgates. >> yeah, and i think joan has terrible guilt about her children. >> what about her children, not being authentic for her children? >> not being there. i mean, i, i can relate to that because my wonderful annie, when she was 3 -- you're wise when you're 3 -- looked up at me and said, i want you, i want all of you. >> oh. >> and i think what i was doing when i was producing a lot of the time, so i might have been home but i wasn't there. i was thinking. i was away. i was not present totally, and a child can sense that. so i think the times when joan, you know, was actually with

them, she wasn't with them because she was doing what she was born to do. and i think she always chose that over her children and it had consequence. >> it is a wonderful, wonderful film and i think we've explored some really interesting aspects of it. glenn, you, as i said in the introduction, are the most nominated actress alive, living performer for an academy award who hasn't won yet and there are many, many performances that people thought you should have won for. and i'm going to rerack all the way back to fatal attraction which potentially put you into the strateosphere. here's a clip. we'll see if it sparks some memories. >> oh, well, i tell you -- >> you want one? >> no, thank you. it's funny being a lawyer. you know, it's like being a doctor. everybody is telling you their inner-most secrets.

>> must be discrete. >> oh, god yeah. >> are you? >> am i what? >> discrete. >> yes, i'm discrete. >> me, too. >> so, it's kind of sinister. it's not the bunny boiling pot. i wonder if you had to live with that your whole career because it shaped a whole generation of movie goers and people and it scared men a lot. and you said that you didn't see her as a villain. you had a more sympathetic view of alex. >> oh, absolutely, yeah. no, i have to find, i have to find a place where i can love every character that i play. i have to come from that point of view because otherwise i think you judge them and if you judge a character, you separate yourself from them. so, i did a lot of -- a lot of

thinking, a lot of talking to psychiatrists. and the woman that i was playing was certainly not a villain. >> and, jonathan, you played villains. what do you get from playing that kind of character? >> i have the same approach as glenn, in that you don't think of your character as a villain. you just try to be honest to the character. and it's for other people to judge by the character's actions whether they're the villain or not. they are often the best-written roles. i have tended to play over the years either people who are very, very good or very, very bad. and joe is open to interpretation. but i've just played pope francis. >> yeah, i was going to get to that. you're playing him in a new role

along with anthony hopkins, right? >> yes. >> he plays bennedict. >> he's in the glenn role in that one. he's still very unhappy, tony, because i was number one on the call sheet and he was number two. and he keeps sending me e-mails. he's not going to let me forget it. and the irony is high sparrow, when i took that role in a "game of thrones," who was a leader in a cult, i likened him to pope francis because he was a man who was all for the poor. he would profess to be we are the many and you are the few. when the many will take over, don't worry. he washed people's feet, he fed them. he did everything that the pope did when he became pope. little knowing that i would get to be the pope. i was saying all this not having seen the script for this following season where he turned

into the complete, you know, nightmare of a man. but i still believed that he was right in what he did. like glenn says, you don't comment. if you comment on your character, you're taking the work away from the audience. >> glenn, it obviously leads me to ask you about your childhood, because in a different religious way, when you were 7, i believe, your family took you into a cult. if i'm not mistaken, it was called the moral reelement cult. you left in the end. how did it affect you in your formative years? >> it was devastating, because i think when you're a child and you're 7, you want to please and you want to please your parent. but the cult becomes your parent. so, because of my nature i became the good little soldier, and ultimately you feel incredibly betrayed.

it's highly complex. you know, five years ago i went to a childhood trauma therapist because i still was being affected by trigger points that were created, you know, during those 15 years that i was in that cult. >> 15 years from 7 till, i think, 22, right? those are such important formative years. >> i know. i had a very empty tool box. >> amazing. >> yes, i went straight to that from college and walked in the theater department at the college william and mary and started to come alive as a human or whatever. by i made a conscious decision to not trust any of my instincts because they had all been basically dictated to me. >> you lived at home with your parents during that? >> no, they sold our house. we lived in centers. they were away a lot. a lot of times we were in the same building, but we the children weren't necessarily together.

>> it's quite scary to think about that, the little we know about some cults out there. i was interested to read it was kathryn hepburn who triggered your desire to be an actress. is that right? >> not quite, because i wanted to be an actress -- i say the first time i saw a disney movie, because we existed in my early childhood in this wonderful country side in connecticut and we existed in the world of make-believe. we had puppets, we our little gang and we were always pretending. so i felt that that -- i always had an incredibly active imagination. i knew kind of what i wanted to do. but i also felt very ignorant when i got out of the cult, so i was 22 when i was a freshman, majored in theater, minored in anthropology. and it was my senior year that i

saw the dick cabot interview. i was painting senior back stage and it riveted me, it was riveting. something inside me said, if that's what you want to do, you do it! and i went the next day to the head of the theater department who was my wonderful mentor and said, please, you know, nominate me for these national auditions. and i went and i got my first job in new york that fall. >> i can hear, especially when i watch the film, i can hear kathryn hepburn in glenn's voice occasionally. it takes me back to thinking, kathryn hepburn could have played this. i like to think i'm jimmy stewart. >> you look a little like jimmy stewart. you certainly look a little like pope francis. look, i want to say something to sort of wrap this up. it's obviously not unusual for men of a certain age to keep

getting parts. it's more difficult for women of a certain age to keep getting parts. and, glenn, you are still going gang busters getting fantastic, fantastic roles. it's a real tribute and say real inspiration to us to see that. but it reminds me of the beginning of the film when you two open your film, "the wife," with a sex scene and it's kind of funny. so, tell us about it. i mean, old people -- sorry, elderly people -- >> old! [ laughter ] >> that's -- >> it sounds more sexy which is kind of ironic. >> that scene was shot on our very first day of filming. >> are you serious? >> yeah. we knew it was based in -- i don't know, we knew there was a punch line to it. and i was surprised that people -- friend for the first time mentioned during one of our

press conferences. i was saying, what sex scene? you know. >> you had forgotten? >> at my age. >> so, glenn, it's interesting what you just said. you've never felt so alive and sexy. >> yeah. >> good. >> ironic. >> good. >> late bloomer. >> i like that. i'm going to end right there. glenn close, jonathan price, thank you so, so much, it's a wonderful, wonderful film. stars of "the wife." >> wonderful to talk to you. >> thanks. >> an incredible jewel. of course "the wife" is release the in mid august. and that is it for our program tonight. thanks for watching amanpour on pbs. join us again tomorrow night. ♪ ♪ ♪

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