welcome to "amanpour on pbs. we're looking back at some of our favorite interviews this year. tonight, my ex-chew save conversations with the artists behind the official portraits of america's first black president and first lady. and as america opened its first memorial to the victims of over 4,000 limpynchings, i speak to brian stevenson about how to heal by confronts america's history of racial terror. good evening everyone, welcome to the program.

i am christiane amanpour in london. during the turbulent first year of the trump presidency, barack obama has kept a low profile. calling out racism and calling freedom of the press. today the former president is back in the spotlight in washington, looking relaxed and happy, unveiling his official portrait. the painting was done by an artist who is known for deticketing ordinary people, usually african-americans, and placing them in positions of power, using bold colors and historical scenes. >> i am not subject who is a great subject. i don't like posing. i get impatient. i look at my watch. i think this must be done. one of those pictures must have worked. why is this taking so long? so it's torturous trying to take

a picture of me, much less take a portrait. but working with kihende was a great joy. >> and michelle obama chose amy cheryl to paint her portrait, making it the first time in history that the president and first lady's portrait were painted by african-american artists. and that was no accident. she spoke of the power of this moment 2in history. >> this is consequential. this is who we as a society decide to celebrate. this is our humanity. this is our ability to say i matter. i was here. the ability to paint the first african-american president of the united states is absolutely overwhelming. [ applause ]

>> and i could feel the pride and the emotions when i spoke to both artists from the smithsonian immediately following the unveiling. >> welcome both of you to the program. it has been an amazing day. what a great moment for you both. how did you feel when those portraits were unveiled? >> in words really. it was -- for me, suspenseful and just, you know, you're waiting for crowd's reaction. and it's just really exciting. i mean, he said it first. it was insane. >> absolutely insane. what you expect of a portrait like this, a sense of exhibition. but here you're dealing with it on a muscular scale. the sense of the lights and the crowd and the anticipation and the people feel with this level of personality that barack obama and michelle obama. it was extraordinary.

>> let's play a little bit about what michelle and the president said particularly about your painting, amy. >> within the first few sentences of our conversation, i knew she was the one for me. maybe it was the moment she came in and looked at barack and she said mr. president, i am excited to be here. i know i'm being considered for both portraits. but she said, mrs. obama, she physically turned to me and says i am really hoping that you and i can work together. [ laughter ] >> amy, i want to thank you for so spectacularly capturing the grace and beauty and intelligence and charm and hotness of the woman that i love. >> so let me ask you amy before i get to this amazing representation. tell me about the dress, tell me about the pose. it is really dramatic the way

you captured the first lady. >> we went through a series of poses. when she landed on that one, it felt like the right one. i knew it immediately. i think i photographed over 150 different poses, some the same over and over again, just trying to figure out what would work. i think that pose kind of -- she's contemplative. she's radiant in the photograph. the dress was something that she also allowed me to have creative control over. when i saw the dress, it was something that would work as well, because that dress is almost like a painting in itself. all that together and the way the composition is formed into a triangle and almost like a monument. when i saw it i knew that's what the poses going to be. >> was it a big task to capture

the first african-american president of the united states, was it stressful trying to figure out how best to represent him? >> stressful was not even begin to say what this was. it was daunting on a level that i have not had to contend with. people i met in the streets casually and minding their own business trying to get to work. then i turn their portraits into things you see in the great museums throughout the world. in this particular case, i am dealing with the leader of the free world, i'm dealing with the president of the united states. in that regard, all bets are all -- all bets are off the table. it is a singularity. i wanted to create something that was wholly new. something wholly unique. part of that was sitting down with him and really getting into terms of what he wanted in a painting and how he saw himself.

honestly he was not one who felt particularly comfortable of the process. so much of this posing and picture taking has a lot to do with vanity and the ego and the self and the positioning of the self and the world publicly. this man is serious about being the people and seeing in that light. and so to that regard, i think some of the choices made, the casual nature of the dress, for example, the sensing that there is no tie and that open, the body language where he's sort of relaxed and open to the world, those are little nods, little signifiers into how he thinks, how he chooses to position himself. and how we look at this portrait alongside other examples. >> they both break traditions in a dramatic way. tell me about the flowers, what was all the foliage about? it looked like the flowers and the person were sort of

struggling for prominence, but also all sorts of different flowers. >> each of those flowers points to his life story. there's elements of kenya. there's flowers that come from hawaii. there's flowers that are the state flag of illinois. really sort of bouncing back and forth decoratively towards elements of his life and telling a story that is decorative, historical and personal. >> i want to ask you both, this is two african-american artists painting the first african-american president and first lady. just that in itself, i don't know how you top that really. amy, you are a newcomer to the world of public art, how did it feel for you? >> for me, you know, it was something that i had never even dreamed of.

so to find myself here, it's just really unbelievable. i can't even put it into words. i feel like i'm going to take some time and look back on it and just process everything that's happened thus far. >> i wonder after being at this for such a long time, kehinde, that you are in a special moment now and the fact that you two were chosen and that you did this, it's not just political but artistic. >> i would say everything we do embodied with political import. but we can't not recognize the important significance of represe representative of art. there is an incredible responsibility in terms of how we choose to celebrate this moment and how they chose to choose us and in terms of what it means. they are signaling to the rest

of the world that it is okay to occupy skin that happens to look like this. it is okay to see people who happen to look like us on the great wall of the museums in the world. in so doing what i see there is true leadership. i see people who have the vision and the intent to be able to be not only great people, but great thought leaders. >> i wanted to ask you lastly, amy, did you ever expect to be here doing this at this time? it was not so long ago that apparently you were waiting tables and it was not so long ago that you also had, you know, a life-threatening heart condition that you had to have surgery for. it's not obvious the fact that you're sitting in front of us and having this unbelievable unveiling today. >> no, i didn't see myself sitting here exactly. but i did see myself where i am now in my career.

>> the president was sort of joking a little bit about how he couldn't afford to be portrayed as a napoleon or king phillip or some of the other heroic poses that you have -- that you are so famous for. >> his initial impulse was to also elevate me and put me in these settings with partridges and some thrones and robes, and mounting me on horses. and i had to explain that i've got enough political problems without you making me look like napoleon. we've got to bring it down just a touch. >> well, you know it is

interesting because immediately after the president made that statement i had to come through and clarify and say you know he was joking about it. barack obama has an amazing sense of humor. he was able to key in on some of the comical aspects that exist in our history. so much of what my work does is echo the ego, the chest beating, the bravado that exists in 19th and 18th century british and french art. the president's portrait had to take a completely different direction and i am proud of the direction we took. >> okay, i am really grateful for you talking to us today. it is an amazing moment, congratulations to both of you. kihinde and amy, thank you so much indeed. >> thank you. >> thank you. there are more than 700

memorials to the confederate cause across the country, but there's never been one to more than 4,000 lynchings, those black victims of vigilante mob killing. until this week, of course. my guest, brian stevenson, is taking a major step towards righting an historical imbalance. he's the visual force behind the institutions that wrestle with racism. the first is the national memorial for peace and justice. it is dedicated to the thousands of men, women and children who are victims of antiblack terror. the second called the legacy museum from enslavement to mass incarceration, stands on the side of a warehouse where enslaved blacks were imprisoned. together, they connect the arc of america's racial history from slavery to jim crow, to the arrest of two innocent black men in a philadelphia starbucks this

month. brian stevenson is director of the equal justice initiative and joins me from montgomery, alabama. brian stevenson, welcome back to the program. >> thank you, it is good to be with you. >> you have done more than many, many people to keep memory alive and keep history alive so that justice perhaps can be served. you have not one but two incredible memorials. one is the memorial and the other is a legacy museum opening. how hard was it to get to this point and what are you trying to say? >> it has been challenging and i am excited and really proud to be creating these spaces. after the emancipation of millions of black people who were enslaved in the united states, enslaved black people were subjected to decades of terrorism and violence through lynching and the brutality of that era have never been

acknowledged. we've been silent about it for too long. our silence i think has made the continuation of racial in equality and bigotry a problem that we still deal with today. my motivation is to create a new record to create a new landscape the american south is littered with the confederacy, we love talking about mid 19 history. but we don't talk about slavery. we don't talk about lynching. and i'm hoping that this will push us to be more honest in confronting our past and addressing the brutal history of racial inequality that we have all inherited here in the united states. >> well, to that end, i want to read you because i talked about memory. without memory our existence would be barren or and opaque, like a prison cell which no light penetrates. if anything can, it is memory that will fade human. so that's what he said. you pointed out that most people

can't even name a lynching victim. i think in the period that you are looking at, 1877 to 1950, as a period of about 80 years, 4,000, more than 4,000 americans were lynched, men, women, and children. >> that's right. and it was terrorism. we can't describe this violence as murder or as hate crimes. it was terrorism. black people were pulled out of their homes, drowned, burned alive, beaten to death, they were hanged. sometimes on the lawn in the public square in front of courthouses. thousands of people would come and celebrate this spectacle of violence and brutality, and we haven't talked about it. it's something devastated to this nation. the demographic geography was shaped during this era, where 6 million black people fled the american south. that's how we have this large

minority populations in cleveland, chicago, detroit, los angeles, and oakland, because black people fled to those communities, not as immigrants but refugees and exiles from terror. because we haven't addressed this, we continue to struggle. >> describe these sort of imagery of the memorial you chosen. most people including myself believe that lynching was pure and simple hanging. but lynching was other forms, as well. >> that's right. it is important that people who come to our memorial have context and so when you enter the memorial, the first thing you see is something that most people would never see in america which is a sculpture on slavery. you will see human figures in chains and bondage. and the optic of enslavement in this brutal form is something that we've not done a very good job of. we don't have an optic that accurately characterizes what happened to black people when they came to this country.

you take that journey and you enter memorial scare aquare andl see the monuments with the names of counties and people who were lynched. it's important for people to understand this was the kind of violence that wasn't hidden. it wasn't pushed to the side. it was actually lifted up to further torment and taunt and terrorize people of color. and you can't appreciate how horrifying and terrifying the violence was until you begin to see these monuments rise. ultimately you are shadowed. you are haunted by the structures that represent all of the lives that were taken and we tell stories. >> anybody claimed their monument yet? >> it's interesting. we open this week -- we have already heard from two dozen communities, faith people, schools and universities, even some government officials who are interested in claiming their monument. so i'm very hopeful that this will happen. and over time, our memorial will

be sort of a report card on which communities in america have acknowledged their history, have committed to this process of truth and recovery. when i go to the holocaust museum, i go through it, i'm very moved by it. at the end of it, i'm prepared to say "never again." we have spaces in this country that compel people to commit to never again, never again tolerating enslavement and lynching and segregation and racial inequality. and because of that, i think we're still burdened by that history. black and brown people are presumed dangerous and dwilt gun our criminal justice system, and that legacy has to be confronted. i hope this inspires them. >> talking about the history and the monuments, obviously this comes at a time when there's an almighty rowe over monuments in the south. and you've either not asked or

she's not coming is the governor of alabama, kay ivey. i just want to play something she said about these monuments that you're talking about. >> when special interests wanted to tear down our historical monuments, i said no and signed a law to protect them. we can't change or erase our history. but here in alabama, we know something washington doesn't. to get where we're going means understanding where we've been. >> so brian, the governor is taking the exact opposite view that you've just described germany took in the post nazi era. >> yeah. first of all, we're invigting everyone to come and see our donmedon me -- monuments and memorials and we had a lot of elected officials say i'm going to be there. i just think the iconography we've created is dishonest.

it's a distortion of history. it's not designed to help people understand who we are and what we've done. it's designed to help people forget some things. and in the 19th century, we brought hundreds of thousands of enslaved people, we brutalized them and we haven't acknowledged that. the two largest high schools in montgomery alabama, are robert lehigh and the statue of robert e. lee in front of the high school in alabama was erected in 1955 as a symbol of resistance to racial integration in public schools. it was designed to signify this idea that segregation forever is the mindset. and we haven't talked about that. and you can't look at that monument and understand the purpose of it. because of that, we have to change the landscape.

i don't think anybody would support a country putting up a statue to osama bin laden. we would be outraged by that. and yet, we haven't confronted what these stat choose represent and how they make people of color feel. >> as we talked about the cover nor, she went so far as creating -- well, monday was a state holiday in alabama, and it's the official observance of memorial day. but over in louisiana, the mayor spoke to us, and took the opposite view. this is what he said, which goes to the heart of what you're saying. >> slavery, it should not be hard for us to say in the second decade of the 21st century was one of our nation's great original sins that has affected us today. to have statues up that are basically put up as political messages to tell african-americans that they were not welcome here is not something that's consistent with the history of new orleans or who we have ever been.

>> so brian, in the bottom of your heart, despite all that you're doing to create a different narrative, what do you feel? how do you keep your passion and motivation when you see reports in the united states that say even if a young black boy is raised in a very upper middle class wealthy home, he's going to face discrimination the minute he finishes his education. when you see here in britain, a massive real problem with the notion of deporting black people, caribbean people who were brought over here at the invitation of the government to help build this country after the war. yet this stuff can casually still happen in starbucks two black people are arrested just for going in there and waiting for a friend. it doesn't happen to white people. where do you get your energy from? >> well, i just recognize that justice is a constant struggle. i understand that we've got a lot of work to do to eliminate

the presumptions of dangerousness and dwiguilt thatt assigned to black people. injustice prevails where hopelessness persists. so it is necessary to stay hopeful. i'm the great grandson of people that were enslaved. my grandmother was terrorized during the era of lynching and fled virginia. my parents were humiliated every day during the jim crow era when they had to see those signs white and colored. and despite the fact that enslaved people had been brutalized, when they got emancipation, they didn't say let's kill all the white people, they said let's find a way to create peace and justice. they were promised freedom. but what they got instead was terrorism and violence. even during that era, the response was, let's find a way to create peace and justice. during the civil rights

movement, despite the humiliation and the indignation of segregation and the brutality of sheriffs and police who put dogs and fire hoses on nonviolent protester who is just wanted to be free, just wanted to vote, the call was still to keep finding a way for peace and justice. so in the midst of this epidemic of overincarceration, the continuation of assault on black and brown people, in the starbucks, in the public spaces, i still have to call for peace and justice, because i know that there is this line that will define how we are viewed in this world. and that line requires us to keep searching for peace, keep searching for justice to avoid hatred and violence, to avoid the bigotry that has defined our community. for me, hope is a requiredness. so when i look back at the people who have done the work that i'm trying to do today, i think about those folks in montgomery 60 years ago who had to say my head is bloodied but not bowed, i don't have any

excuses to keep fighting, to honor that commitment to justice, to struggle. because i do believe one day we'll get to a point where we can actually claim freedom, we can experience something that feels like equality and justice. but we have to stay hopeful of what we need to do. >> brian stevenson, keep fighting. we're in your corner. thank you so much. the founder and executive director of the equal justice initiative. >> thank you so much. thank you. that's it for our program tonight. thanks for watching "amanpour on pbs. and join us again tomorrow night. >> you're watching p ♪

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