welcome to "amanpour" on pbs. we're looking back at some of our favorite interviews this year, and tonight migration in the trump age, the pulitzer prize-winning author and vietnam war refugee, viet thahn nguyen, joins the program. plus, my interview with the millennial insta poet sensation rupi kaur. good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. i'm christiane amanpour in london. the u.s. government says that it has lost track of nearly 1,500

unaccompanied migrant children last year after placing them in sponsor homes. this as the trump administration implements even more policies that will likely lead to even more children being separated from their parents. amid this anti-immigrant sentiment that is sweeping the united states and the west, my next guest says that his family could have been the poster children for how refugees make america great. he is viet thahn nguyen, a writer, professor, and the winner of both the macarthur genius fellow ship and the pulitzer prize for his landmark novel "the sympathizer." and, yes, he was a refugee from vietnam. viet thahn nguyen, welcome to the program. >> thank you so much more having me. >> so you wrote, you know, an article. you're talking about refugees and migrants and it's caused a lot of, i don't know, controversy, let's say. what was it that sparked that from you? what moved you to get involved in this highly polarized debate? >> well, i've always been

interested in refugees and immigrants because i am a refugee. and of course right now in the united states we're going through a moment of high anti-immigrant and anti-refugee feeling. so it was really recent actions on the part of the trump administration, john kelly calling undocumented immigrants uneducated and harm to american society, and jeff sessions arguing for the removal of children of undocumented immigrants. these are crises in our society that i wanted to respond to. >> before i play this john kelly sound bite to remind everybody exactly what you're talking about, just remind us of your story. obviously it's a long story, but you are a refugee and immigrant. you came with your family from vietnam, right? when was it? how difficult was it to assimilate back then? >> well, it was 1975. i was 4 years old and my parents were in their 40s. of course the vietnam war ended, and we were on the losing side, so we fled as refugees to the united states and ended up in a refugee camp in pennsylvania in 1975. and while it was a great gesture

of hospitality on the part of the united states, what happened to us personally was that i was separated from my parents at 4 years of age in order to leave that refugee camp. and that's a very traumatic experience, and it stayed with me for a very long time as well as this understanding that refugees and immigrants are in need of hospitality and help. and, again, it seems like at this time in the united states and many other parts of the world, that that sense of hospitality has been fading. >> i want to play the jeff sessions sound bite because this goes to the heart of the matter that's a big story today as well. allegedly the u.s. government losing track of something like 1,500 kids who have come across the border from the south. but this is what he said earlier. >> it's an offense to enter the country unlawfully. if you smuggle an illegal alien across the border, then we'll prosecute you for smuggling. if you're smuggling a child, then we're going to prosecute you. and that child will be separated from you probably as required by law. if you don't want your child to

be separated, then don't bring them across the border illegally. it's not our fault if somebody does that. >> yowz. that is the opposite of sympathy, right? >> the exact opposite. i think we can have a reasonable debate about borders and the legality of immigration and so on. but the idea that we're going to take children away from their parents as a way of deterring immigration is inhumane and immoral. i think too many people in this country have lost sight of that as they stick to this rhetoric of legality. >> so i want to ask you again based on this issue and based on what happened to you, you know, in a way the u.s. did something in vietnam. that's why there was a need for people like you to flee and come to the united states. it was sort of a direct reaction to a u.s. intervention. so i wonder if you can comment on that and then compare what the united states has done in central america over the decades

that might have prompted even generations since to be refugees. >> well, of course, the united states fought a very controversial war in vietnam. and one of the strangest and weirdest parts of that was that it was recorded on tv and in many newspaper photographs, so that war felt very intimate to a lot of people, including many americans. so when the war ended, i think a good number of americans felt there was an obligation to help south vietnamese people for whom the united states had been fighting. now, the situation with immigrants coming from south of the border is not any less complex, but it's less visible to so many americans. it comes from these issues were refugees and immigrants coming from south of the border are coming for economic and political reasons, and in many cases they're fleeing from situations that the united states has had a hand in in terms of the united states involvement south of the border. but these kinds of actions that the united states have been involved in have been relatively invisible to many americans. therefore, i think many americans don't feel they do have any obligation to these particular immigrants.

so, therefore, it's aerzieasier behave towards them in an inhumane fashion. >> let's go back to these children. the united states says it's trying to place many of them with family members if there are people who are known to the children if possible, or else they go into some sort of state control, so to speak. but all obligations end once these kids are put in sponsored units. what happened to you, just the emotion of being separated from your family or being put in a sponsored family who treated you well, but nonetheless it was not your family? >> now i'm the father of a 4-year-old. i was 4 years old when i was separated from my parents. so i can see through him what had happened to me. i certainly remember at 4 years old this was a traumatic experience. when you're h4, you have no understanding you're being taken away from your parents possibly for your own good. all i felt was this tremendous loss and pain. that has stayed with me through

decades. my son, if i'm away from him for a day or two, i find that to be painful. he finds that to be painful. so i can completely imagine for these children who are being taken away from their parents under situations of coercion that the trauma is even greater, especially if they're being taken away from many, many months. i was only gone for three months from my parents and if they're taking away with strangers who may not be particularly hospitable, which in my case is not what happened. but even that barely mitigated the situation of being taken away from my parents. >> you are a real success story. obviously highly educated. you're right now a professor of english. you are a pulitzer prize-winning auth author. you have written many books. but i want to play for you what john kelly, the chief of staff to the president, said about the quality of immigrants who are coming from -- at this time from south of the border, but perhaps he means in general. let me just play this, and we'll

talk on the other side. >> let me step back and tell you that the vast majority of the people that move illegally into the united states are not bad people. they're not criminals. they're not ms-13. but they're also not people that would easily assimilate into the united states. they're overwhelmingly rural people, and the countries they come from, fourth, fifth, sixth grade educations are kind of the norm. they're coming here for a reason, and i sim thympathize w the reason but the laws are the laws. >> he said that he sympathizes but you pointed out he doesn't empathize. he is essentially saying that, hey, they're not good enough for us. your mother, she went through a hard time, right, learning english, learning to assimilate. >> absolutely. it's not as if we can simply change our immigration laws so that we only admit pulitzer prize winners. when i look at someone like my mother, she's exactly the kind of person that john kelly is describing. she was born poor in a rural area, and she had a sixth grade

education. nevertheless, she was a heroic woman who transformed her life in vietnam and in the united states. she was a refugee twice, once in each country, and it was because of her hard work and survival and courage that she produced people like me and my older brother who went to harvard and so on. in american history, we have had a pattern of this, which is that new immigrants, new refugees to this country, have always been welcome -- not welcomed, but have always been greeted with suspicion by the majority of americans. and after a generation or two, these populations actually do become americans and do produce people like myself and also people like john kelly, whose grandparents were italian and irish, working class laborers, whose english was also suspect. but i think he's forgotten that or he thinks that italian and irish immigrants are somehow different from vietnamese and latino immigrants, but really they're not. >> there's either a collective amnesia where they think white

immigrants are better than other immigrants. let's face. wheth when the boat people -- when you came west, you were considered the good immigrants. you did come here and work like the blazes and make huge successes of yourselves, for your communities as well. but you take issue with that, right? you don't think you were necessarily the good immigrants? >> well, first of all, i take objection with the term boat people, which i find sort of dehumanizing. i call them oceanic refugees for example. you have to remember that people who took to the ocean had about a 50% survival rate in crossing that ocean, which is much worse than what the astronauts have faced. now, the other things is that when the united states accepted vietnamese refugees, you have to remember that only 36% of the american population wanted to take these refugees. the perception of us was that we were the so-called boat people, for example, and that we would bring all kinds of problems and

contamination to this country. now, 40 years later, because of the successes of many vietnamese americans, that whole past has been forgotten by many americans and also by many of the vietnamese americans themselves, some of them oppose accepting new immigrants and refugees so they're repeating what john kelly himself is doing. but i grew up in the vietnamese refugee committee in the 1970s in california, and there were many of us who were doing things like welfare cheating and much, much worse and we've over come that, many of us have. not that vietnamese are perfect or undocumented immigrants are perfect, but that given the opportunity in the united states, these populations tend to succeed. >> so in the end, you're a storyteller, and the story is very important. the narrative is very important. you say that donald trump has succeeded in dominating the narrative and that people like yourself need to get better at

countering the narrative and the storytelling. >> and we're all story tellers. when donald trump says make america great again, he's telling a story in four words that is very sed uktive to many people and they repeat that story over the dinner table and so on. so it's up to us who believe in a different kind of story about an inclusive america, about a welcoming america, about a america that is about all kinds of people from working white class to people of color, it's important for us to give another kind of story such as make america love again, which is something that america has been capable of in the past and can be capable of today. >> viet thahn nguyen, thank you so much for joining us on this memorial day. >> thanks for having me, christiane, it's an honor. my next guest has channeled her life challenges through her cathartic collection of poetry, she is rupi kaur who at 25 years

is one of the bright ef stars of her generation. she was born in india. she moved to canada with her family when she was just 4. and her poetry when she first began posting on social media as a teenager has attracted a huge fan base. she's often labeled the insta poet, and thank you she has 2.6 million instagram followers, and she's the author of two books, "the sun and her flowers," and also "milk and honey," a "new york times" best-seller which has been translated into 30 languages. i found out from rupi that it's not been all smooth sailing. she joined me from her home in canada. rupi kaur, welcome to the program. >> thank you for having me. >> so, rupi, i have to start because you are a millennial rock star. you're a phenomenon, and people have called you or dubbed you an insta poet. is that a new genre? what is it? >> so i think that title, insta poet, it's a new genre. but for me it's not because if

you look at poetry throughout history, the style in which i write has existed for so long. you see it in the way that poets like ee cummings wrote or -- and i guess the term insta poet originates from poetry, which is a very traditional form of art that's been married to something that's really non-traditional and new, which is instagram. so over the past couple of years, we've seen dozens and dozens of young writers who are using instagram as a platform to share and publish their work. >> and you have almost 3 million instagram followers, which again is huge. but let's just start at the beginning. you were only 4 when your parents brought you to canada, right? your father came as a refugee. what was it like growing up in that sort of other environment, that other world? >> i think the biggest thing was growing up without my dad there. so what i do remember is when we

landed at the montreal airport and i was 4 years old, and my dad was there to greet us. and i had no idea who he was. and he was all like, oh, hello, daughter. and i was like, who are you, strange man? get away from me. and like that was the start of my journey in canada. and i feel like that sort of contradiction and that juxtaposition of these really intense forces clashing was like a repetitive pattern. you know, when i first started school, i didn't know a word of english to, you know, being sometimes the only brown person in so many rooms. so these are the issues that i sort of confront in my writing and i talk about. >> and of course you didn't start speaking english till fourth grade, which is around 9 or 10 years old. i want you to read from your book, "the sun and her flowers," about the immigrant, about the other in the way you describe it. >> perhaps we are all

immigrants, trading one home for another. first we leave the world for air. then the suburbs for the filthy city in search of a better life. some of us just happened to leave entire countries. >> i'm really interested watching you say your poetry, and i know that when you go to bookstores or readings or, you know, when you're giving onstage presentations, you are mobbed. what do you think it is about the way you construct language, about where you come from, that resonates at this time with that group? >> before i was sharing poetry like this that you see in the books, i was more of a performance poet. so that's where i built my sort of first connection with my readers, and i think -- i heard somewhere, and it was many, many years ago when i first started writing, and i don't remember who said this. but the quote goes something

like, write what you fear the most. it's the thing that's most universal. and at the time, there were so many things that i feared or that i was confronting, whether it was sexual abuse, sexual violence, domestic violence, like a great many things. and that's all i wanted to write about. and i was terrified of it. but i said, i'm going to do it. i'm going to do it. and i think that's why so many people have gathered around my work, because these are things that even though they seem like we're the only ones going through them, these things, these emotions, whether they're sorrow, whether they're joy, all of the hardships, they are the things that are most universal regardless of race, color, class, and creed. >> i want to then ask you again to read from your book, "milk and honey," from page 13 in fact, which is quite graphic in the language used and the

illustration that you use . it is about the violation of a woman's body. and i guess as you know, there is a huge amount of concern about what's happening in india right now, the rape of young children, you know, the protests against this. the lack of accountability. read from this page because it is really quite profound. >> you have been taught your legs are a pit stop for men that need a place to rest. a vacant body empty enough for guests. but no one ever comes and is willing to stay. >> what were you saying then? >> from such a young age, i've been surrounded by -- then it was girls, and now they're women talking about sexual violence. these are things that we have to -- they only happen to a few people, and we just don't talk about this. but i remember that slowly me and my best friends, we started

to share our own experiences, whether they happened to our mothers, whether they happened to our grandmothers, our aunts, our sisters. and suddenly what i realized was this is way too common and this is not okay. and so in regards to what's happening in india and most of south asia at this time, it's been happening for so long. i write because i think that it's so necessary to heal from it, and that's the only way that we can like break the cycle and create real change. >> you're really young. how much of this specific kind of writing is auto biographical? have you had any encounters with violence, with that kind of misogyny or sexism? >> yes, i have. i think this is a question that i get the most because the work is -- i write in first person pronoun, so the work is very personal. so "milk and honey," "the sun and her flowers" is not 100

person ougauto biographical wor but i've had my fair share of experiences with sexual abuse and sexual violence, which is why i think i empathize with other people so much who have gone through perhaps acts of violence. it's why for a majority of my writing career, i focus on that specific topic. >> i just want to read out a few other lines from another of your poems. it may goes to the heart of the me too era we're living in right now. you're writing essentially to women, and you say, i want to apologize to all the women i have called pretty before i've called them intelligent or brave. i'm sorry i made it sound as though something as simple you're born with is the most you have to be proud of when your spirit has crushed mountains. from now on i will say things like you are resilient and you are extraordinary, not because i don't think you're pretty, but because you're so much more than that. it's gorgeous. that is so beautiful. and i'm sure many, many of your

readers have responded to that. how have they? >> that is an all-time favorite. i feel like my readers are the best readers in the world because they'll recite that poem to me and they make me feel like a total pop star. so thank you to them. that piece was really -- it holds a really important place in my heart. i remember that i tried to not write that piece at all because i thought that piece was just a little bit silly at the time. i wrote it years ago. but it came to me in my mind, and it sort of replayed those 13 lines or however many lines there are, they replayed in my mind like a song on repeat. and i was trying to write about other things, but all i could hear was that poem. and after three months of hearing that poem going on and on in my mind, i was like, okay, i need to get this out of my system. i wrote it, and i put it to the side. so i think it's so funny that sometimes those things that we think aren't important end up being the things that move us and other people the most.

and i have -- being a young woman, especially growing up in a place where how i look is not, you know -- doesn't fit into the standards of beauty depending on where i live, that was a very big -- it was a big issue. i grew up with very to little or no self-esteem for years and i would crave that compliment. i would crave people telling me, wow, you look beautiful. and when they told me, oh, rupi, you're so smart or you're so intelligent or good job on this or good job on that, i was like, no, i don't care about that. i want you to call me beautiful. and i think it was in my early 20s, i was like, that's so odd. no. that can't be the thing that i want most, and it also can't be the thing that the compliments that i give the most. i can't give this word so much importance. and so that's why i wrote that piece, because i think that especially being women, we're so judged on what's happening on the outside. but i'm like, there's so much

beauty and so much grace and so much dimension on the inside that we need to discuss. >> i just want to go back to your mother as well because she was a stay at home mom. you were encouraged to speak punjabi at home, and at some point -- >> we were only allowed to speak punjabi. >> only allowed. there you go. well, great. you hung on to your culture. it's great. but you do talk about being embarrassed about the accent, being embarrassed about people seeing and hearing your mom speak. let me just read again to a beautiful illustration you've done of your mother. you say, my mother sacrificed her dream so that i could dream. i mean it's so profound and yet so simple. and it sums up almost every refugee mother that i've ever encountered. do you appreciate now what she did for you then? >> yes. i -- i know this will sound so silly, and it can even be a little bit cliche. but even like as you're saying these things to me, i can feel

it in my heart and in my stomach. you know, it makes my stomach turn. like her life and the way that it's gone and the things she's had to give up so that i can have this life. it just -- it just moves me in so many ways. and it makes me feel bad at the same time because i remember being at the supermarket with her and being so embarrassed because i would be off buying some chips and candy, and she'd be, you know, screaming my name. punjabis are really loud people, you know? so she'd be like, oh, rupi, come here in punjabi, and i'd be like, oh, my god, i just want to disappear. and i would yell at her. i would be like, you're ruining my life. you know, dramatic teenager of course. then i remember we would go to check out the groceries, and she would pull out like a ziplock bag full of change, and i would be like, this woman wants to

ruin my life. why, mom? why do you have to try so hard to be different? and not realizing that she wouldn't by herself a wallet so that i could have a backpack. and so now it's like i reflect on that, and that's why i have an entire chapter dedicated to the story of my parents. >> i want to go back to the beginning and circle back to the notion of insta poet. you don't follow anyone back. what lies behind that deliberate action of yours? >> there was a pontints a coupl years ago as i was gaining such a large readership that so much of my time went into social media. and instead of writing or doing the other things that i loved, i was so absorbed in it. so that was my deliberate act of being like, i need to take a step back from this and focus on what's important. they say that no good thing ever happened past 11:00, and it was 2:00 a.m., and i started hitting the unfollow button one after

another, and suddenly i was following no people. i think it was causing a lot of pressure and anxiety for me personally, and i realized that, you know, my presence probably does the same to other people. so i realize that i'm also a part of that issue. but i think the conversation in the next couple years needs to go around what social media does to the mental health of young people. >> well, on that note, rupi kaur, thank you so much indeed for joining us. >> thank you for having me. that is it for our program tonight. thanks for watching "amanpour" on pbs. join us again tomorrow night. ♪

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