welcome to amanpour on pbs. we are look g back at some of our favorite interviews this year. tonight, understanding the america of today by understanding the america of the past. pew iz litser prize winning author and presidential historian jon meacham on the polarizing politics of trump. plus, the hit musical that swept this year's tony awards. the bands visit. i spoke to star composer david yazbek. good evening everyone, welcome to the program, i am christiane amanpour in london.

it's a speech that sounds torn from today's headlines. build a wall of steel as high as heaven to keep problematic immigrants out of the united states. but in fact, the year was 1924. the immigrants were coming from italy. and the speaker was georgia governor clifr walker addressing a national convention of the ku klux klan n. his book, jon meacham explores america's vulnerability to fear, bitterness, and racial strife. it's called the soul of america fo the battle for our -- with literally the whole world trying to figure out the trump era not only does meacham allow us how to see how the fears are lit he allows us to see how we have come through the darkness on every occasion.

>> the title of your book, better angels refers to the first inaugural address. at that time we were on brink of a civil war. how does that resonate to you. how did you choose that title? >> every era in american life has been shaped by the battle between our best instincts and our worst instincts. uniquely among nations we were founded in more or less the modern era. coming out of european enlightenment, coming out of the scientific revolution. the idea behind the constitution was that reason would have a stand to chance against passion in the arena. we were founded on that idea. but at every point from the very beginning, 1790s all the way until our conferring now, we have had this struggle. and my view is that as lincoln put it at that perilous perilous hour 600, 700 thousand americans about to die in a civil war he said that he hoped that the better angels of our nature would in fact prevail.

i think. this is not a homo lytic point. it is not a fourth of july point. it's not a narcotic one. basically, our better angels have managed to continue to make us a country that people want to come to as opposed to flee. and i think that's an important thing for us to remember as we try to figure out how do we survive clearly the most unconventional presidency in our history. >> well, you say that about coming rather that fleeing. certainly some people are leaving. some under duress. others are just leaving because they can't deal with it, frankly. and the particularly sharp, pointed spear leveled at the immigrants that have made america what it is. so how dark is today's era in your construction and your narrative compared to some of those other past issues that you highlight? >> i think this is a lot like the 1920s. i think it's a lot like the second half of the 19th century

when we decided to focus quite firmly in a discriminatory way against immigrants. the chinese exclusion act. there were enormous fears in that century that the white working class was worried that foreign workers would come in and take jobs that americans should do. so what we are living through now is the latest manifestation of a perennial tension, a trendial fetrend i -- a trendial fear in the american soul. what we have to do is what theodore roosevelt called upon us to do in that era. which was to embrace tie versity. we had to open our arms more widely than clenching our fists. but every era, as you know, is marked -- is imperfect. theodore roosevelt, who called for a melting pot, who called

for a new kind of americanism, also believed in a discredited genetic theory about white superiority. so i don't think we can romanticize the past. i think there is a tendency right now in many places for americans to see that everything before trump was somehow better. and that ever since then we have descended into this uniquely dark place. my argument is not let's relax because we have been through this before. it's let's get to work and figure out what it was about the constitutional and cultural inclinations of the past that got us through these dark moments before. essentially the answer is a historically based realization that the free movement of ideas, the free movement of people, free trade, competition, pure adam smith has been what has made us truly great. and if we want to make america great again let's embrace that openness and continue to go from

strength to strength. >> i wonder what you think of this new sort of study seeping into the political arena, if you like, that was done to explain the trump vote and the trump voters. because many the mainstream press, of course the conservative press as well and all of the talk after the election was that it was all about the left behind, it was all about the middle states, the flyover states, it was all about those who, you know, were undergoing severe economic disenfranchisement and i think a estate. and yet this university of pennsylvania study has suggested that it is actually about racial anxiety almost much more than economic. they look at the economics of those who voted and they see it is actually racial anxiety, what van jones said on election night, sort of a white-lash. >> i don't think there is any doubt that race is at the heart of this chapter of american history because race has been at the heart of every chapter of american history.

it is our original sin. our constitution was created to deny the full implications of what the declaration of independence said we were supposed to be about at every point race has been a difficult, difficult faultline in american life. i come were the american south. 50 years ago, we had apartheid in our politics here. american women only voted for 98 years, shifting from race to gender. and marriage quality on the question of gay rights is not quite three years old. so the story of the country, again, without sentimentalizing it, has been moving from -- has been progressive. basically, i think president trump is president trump because of economic anxiety. and that is all rolled up with these racial fears, a fear that a certain way of life is under assault from immigrants, from people of color, and that somehow or another -- 24 this

happened in the 1920s in the same kind of period, 5 million klansmen, oregon, indiana, colorado all were taken over in many ways politically by the klu klux klan. we have been here before, in times of stress. and certainly race will forever be a factor. my own view, to go to van's point, is that in 20 years the united states is going to look a lot more like barack obama's america than it is donald trump's. and i think one of the reasons donald trump is president is because people know that in their bones and that this was one last gasp of a -- of an older vanishing order. >> so to that end, you know, describe what led you to write this book. it was i think the events of charlottesville, right? >> it was. last august, yep, when the neonazis and klansmen were marching to defend a robert e.

lee and a young counter-protester was killed two virginia state troopers were killed as part of the operation and the virginia state governor had a difficult time deciding which said he was on. i spend most of my time reading about and thinking about the american president. we have had some terrible moments before and that was right up there. or down will. >> indeed. i wonder if you can talk about -- you talk about the different eras, the dark devils and the better angels sort of in competition. i was struck this week by two major commencement addresses, as you know this class of graduates go forth. one by mayor bloomberg of new york and today former secretary of state rex tillerson. both of them spoke about the fundamental need to recognize truth and facts over lies and distortion, the fundamental need for honesty in our public space, to protect the very democracy and the constitution of the united states. and i wonder if you can comment on how that is sort of whittling

away at the soul of america and even the better angels? >> it is. as john adams once said facts are stubborn things. we are testing their stubbornness. we are in a particularly fraught tribal moment in american politics. there are 35, 40% on each side that believe their view of the world is absolute. they believe that any contrary fact is somehow or another just dismissible because it doesn't fit in with their preexisting world view. to me, that's among the most un-american -- i don't use that phrase much -- but un-american views to take. largely because the founding of the country -- and this is the appeal to cultural and political conservatives as well as more classical liberals. the founding of the country was the clearest political manifestation of the enlightenment idea that reason

should be an organizing principle in human affairs. what is the american revolution if not the political undertaking that comes at the end of an era of gutenberg with the rise of movable type, the reformation, the protestant reformations the shift from popes and princes and kings who either by accident of birth or incident of election have thrt over people to a who horizonal understanding that we are all created equal, we have the capacity in ourselves to determine our destiny? it is a great western idea. and america was the embodiment of that. if we continue to think etiologically as opposed to rationally, we are not being true to the american promise. >> well, you know the european commission president tonight addressed that kind of question that you just raised. remember, europe is america's closest alliance bloch. it's its biggest trading partner. this is what donald tusk said at

a speech just now. >> we are witnessing today a new phenomenon, the pa treeshs assertiveness of the american administration. -- the capricious assertiveness of the american administration. looking at the actions of president trump someone who even think with friends like that, who needs enemies. >> i mean, you know, i haven't actually heard that recently from a european ally towards an american president. that's quite harsh. >> it is. and one things we are dealing with, and obviously on the global stage, is trying to separate to what extent is president trump's somanship a and -- showmanship and bullying and ill considered it seems social media postings, to what extent does that affect and shape our approximately see. we have made things as difficult for ourselves as possible, which

is a classically thing if you think about it. churchill said you can always count on us to do the right thing after we have exhausted every other possibility. we are testing that at the moment. it is a perilous moment in the life of the country because the conventions that have guided us are at best vulnerable and at worst are already gone. the question is, we know that the presidency has not changed donald trump. the question ultimately will be whether donald trump has changed the presidency going forward. >> your eulogy at barbara bush's funeral, you spoke about public service as you would like to remember it. >> barbara and george bush put country above party, the common good before political gain, and service to others above the settling of scores. >> you know, that whole principle of, again, the better angels, national service, you

know, above individual, you know, ego. just very quickly because we are out of time, what does that mean to you right now, their administration? >> i think that we have to look back in order to find a way forward. and right now, the president is about the settling of scores. but we have had presidents who have been erratic. not quite this erratic. and i think we have to ultimately hope that through protests, through resistance, through these kinds of conversations, through the bearing of witness, that we will get through this. >> all right. jon meacham, thank you so much. we turn to a different and more harmonious story now, which is playing out on broadway. the hit musical, the bands visit dominated this year's tony awards sweeping up a total of tenning including for best original score. adapted from a 2007 movie it is a small story that offers great hope showing us that, yes, even between the bitererrest of

middle eastern foes there was a time in the recent pass of peace treaties and political connections when israelis and arabs could come together and make beautiful music. david yazbek is the composer and lyricist. i sat down with him to talk about it all in new york. david yasbek welcome to the program. >> thank you. >> what happens when a producer calls you up and says you know, david, should bedo about a fly blown nowhere town in israeli based on a israeli movie. >> the truth is when any producer calls me up askand aske to do anything my first answer is no. >> i thoughtity i had would be yes. >> i charge away. and then i call back and say give me a few weeks. let me think about it. with this one, seeing the movie was enough to make me turn around to say yes. >> the movie got you to do it. >> the movie was the source material. beautiful move. the bands visit.

the tone of the movie was so gentle, yet so devastating and joyful. it made me think, can we translate that to a musical on stage. >> before we got to the nitty-gritty of the story and all that inspired you i just want to play for you the legendary andrew lloyd webber who has four broadway musicals on for the first time since rogers and hammer steen. this is what he said about story telling making good musicals. >> i mean we not only have hamilton which sounds like an unlickly idea. i mean the idea of an american founding father in hip hop doesn't immediately sound liked a good idea for a musical. then hanson, of course sounds like it is not a good idea because it's about social media and he radio jek. therefore it is a good idea. then planes coming into gandor. not necessarily a good idea. therefore a good idea. even worse, the yt 6 an egypt than band showing up in tel

aviv. >> the ban's visit. >> great idea. yes, fantastic music. the moment when the band play is one of those moments you get up in your seat and you say yes this is what musicals are all about. >> that is great endorsement, isn't it and you do feel that way when you watch it. the last moment when the band plays for the first time. you keep it to the very end. why? >> these people you have seen on stage acting and moving around, they are world class musicians. so when they play it is the deepest expression of connectivity, which is what the show is about. and joy. and it's very ka rtd thattic. when andrew lloyd webber raises his hands like that. >> a sweet spot. >> you know you have got it. the sweet spot. >> it's about the police orchestra, the band coming to this nowhere down in israeli.

it is a mistake that leads to this extraordinary encounter. i think we have a little bit of -- yeah, the characters describe the town in this song welcome to nowhere. let's play it. okay. >> stick a pin in the map of the desert, fill the read to the middle of the desert. pour cement in the desert. that's. welcome to nowhere ♪ behold where it was once own desert. the town. >> it is a town in the negav where the film was shot. it really is a nowhere town. but even people in a nowhere town are people. and they are endlessly fascinating. >> we are studiously avoiding the politics of an egyptian band in 1996 taking the wrong turning taking the wrong bus ticket and ending up in the wrong town in

israel. it is this sort of quiet political story. you are not facing politics head on here by any stretch of the imagination. but nobody in the audience can avoid the fact this is about the most contested part of the world today. >> if we had concluded a scene talking about someone's traumatic experience during a war or something, that would have lessened the impact of not speaking about the politics. there is a scene in the movie where one of the egyptians, they are dressed in these kinds of powder blue uniforms. he is sitting in a restaurant and there is a picture of a tank, an he is rally tank. he takes his hat off and hangs it over the picture. that's him saying we're people. and you know, there's a very elemental thing about they are lost, they need food. they need a place to sleep. and other people give them that. >> again, you hang this whole notion and this whole play on

the idea of botherdom, on the idea of on we as the "new york times" put it basically saying the residents are happy to tell you in some of the with ittiest songs ever written about being bored. the b that begins its name might stand for basically bleak and beige and blah, blah, blah. you really made an effort to make it look that. there is no effort to sort of sex up the city, so to speak. >> no. there is always that first impulse to sex it up for broad kae. and almost immediately all of us, the director and wolf, the producer said we are not going to do that. because if we do that it won't have the emotional impact. and we made the right move, you know. >> you have -- i mean, after college you went on to be a comedy writer. i remember this. we have known each other a long time -- for david letterman. >> yeah. >> and then your own music career. and lots of broadway. now these amazing successes. how much of you is in this play,

this musical compared to the other works you have done? >> i'm glad you asked that. this is really me. i made albums. i made five albums. when i make them i feel like that's a personal expression. i do what i want to say. i say what i want to say. when this came along i wasn't exactly sure this would happen, but it did. i was able the really say what i wanted to say in every song. this almost feels like one of my albums to me. an album that i made with the best musician i could find and the best singers i could feep. >> let's not forget, you yourself, your mother is jewish, your father is lebanese christian. >> catholic. >> catholic. >> my first transcribe to help none with my father we were visiting his father. we were in a cab from the airport to the mountain where my grandfather was. and there was this very exotic -- i don't like using that word. there was this pungent new flavor of music coming from the radio in the cab. and i asked my father to ask the cab driver what it was.

the scales and the rhythms and the orchestra sound. but mostly this voice, this fee moil voice. and he asked. and it was tomb. i didn't know who that was. but it really stuck. that song you can stchlt her voice stuck. she was bigger than sinatra if you looked at the whole world. >> yeah. >> and really, that was the first trip for me that inserted that kind of music. >> let's not forget, you were 7 at the time. >> i was 7, yes. and i was listening to everything. >> i want to just play the song that duna is singing about. ♪ ♪ ♪ came floating on a lebanese ♪ flying in over jasmine wind

♪ and we danced we did ♪ in a enchanted wind >> well for people of a certain generation we remember omar shareef. the great egyptian actor. >> lawrence of arabia. >> not to mention. it's interesting that you show the story of the other. that each side is able somehow to connect with the other side. >> the pull is always there. it's the stuff that gets in the way of it. that stuff is usually -- has to do with money and power. i was just in tel aviv. when you go to egypt or to israel, you know, israel -- you know, the food in israel has become great. mostly because they love the

food from all around them. the music, the art, the food, that's a connecting point. that's possibly the most important connecting point. and that's why when we or any administration cuts funding for the arts, they are really cutting just yet another one of those connections. >> regarding your play, the arts are being given short sha riff no matter where you look around the world. the united states, schools in europe, no matter where you look. andrew lloyd webber has his own arts foundation where he tries to encourage people at state schools, kids to have some art and music in their lives. from your perspective, what is an education, an adolescence, without the arts? >> it is a one-way ticket to trumpsville. that's how it feels to me. when i say this, i mean there is this move towards authoritarianism everywhere that you are talking about. and you -- if you really are

invested in the arts, you almost can't really go there. when we play music, and i say we because i get to play with them sometimes. not on stage, but it's this very deep connection. i have a band that i have been playing with some of them for 20, 25 years. we love each other the way a family does, especially while we are connecting through music. and i think the band's visit is really about that. and i think it comes pouring off the stage. >> i was going to say, do you think, i mean, do you feel every night, every matinee in a the audience really gets that thing that you are saying? what do you think resonates most with the audience? they do leap up at the very end. >> i was going to make a joke, every night, yes, every matinee i'm not sure. i think the audience, when you are doing a show, if everyone in the show is on a more superficial level is having a great time making each other laugh back stage and on stage that floods out. the show doesn't even have to be

that great but the audience just like when someone laughs it's infectious. they feel it. when you are making music together, a lot of it is being improvised. you are connecting very deeply. and i'm sure, if you did some fin kind of a test of brain waves or something you would see the entire audience get on the same track. >> and the good chemical, the seratonin. >> yes, the alpha waves and the seratonin. >> david yszbek thank you so much. >> thank you. >> we hope you enjoyed that look back into your archive. and that is it for this special edition of our program tonight. thanks for watching amanpour on pbs. join us again tomorrow night.

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