robert: convictions, immunity ills and a showdown with theer attorney g. is the trump presidency at a turning point? i'm robert costa, welcome to >> he took the job and then he said i'm going to recuse myself. i said what kind of a man is this? robert: the attorney general stands up to president trump's criticism thatr he neve took control of the justice department. and vows the agency will not be improperly influenced by politics. but the feud between the once-close allies has cpublicans taking sides. >> i think there'le a time, sooner rather than later, where it'll be time to have new face and fresh voice at the partment of justice. robert: and the president's foer attorney general michael cohen pleads guilty to eight iminal counts including campaign finance violations connected to payof of two

women. >> by the way, he pled to two counts that aren't a crime which nobody understands. robert: trump insists the convictions of cohen and former campaign chairman paul manafort have nothing to do with him. >> where is the collusion? they're stl looking for collusion, where is the collusion? robert: we cover it all, next. >> this is "washington week." corporate funding is provide by newman's own foundation, donating all profits from newman's own food products to charity and nourishing the common good. the yuennd fion, committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities. the ethics and excellence in journalism foundation. the corporation for public broadcasting. d by contributions to your pbs stations from viewers like you. thank you. once again, from washington,

moderator robert costa. robert: good evening. what a week. two courtroom dramas featuring the president'sr campaign chairman paul manafort and his longtime attorney micha cohen and immunity deals with two close allies.f all could change the course of donald trump's presidency. on tuesday, a jury convict manafort on eight of 18 counts of tax evasion and bank fraud. the "washington post" reported that the president has privately coaridered an for manafort but his lawyers have so far advised against it. th same day, former trump attorney michael cohen brought the legal clouds even closer to the president. cohen pleaded guilty toin viol campaign finance laws: under oath he stunned the manhtan courtroom when he said the payments to women alleging affairs were, quote, in coordination with and at the direction of a candidate for federal office. that statement contr is the president once told

reporters. >> did you know about the $130,000 payment to stoy daniels? >> no. >> did you -- did you give him the money to make that payment? ro the president appeared on fox news with his latest defense, the payments weren't campaign >> did you know about the payments? >> later on. but you have tot understand, w he did and they weren't taken out of campaign finance, that's a much bigger thing, did they come out they have campaign? they didn't come out they have campaign. they came from me. i tweeted about it. robert: but mr. trump's word won't be the time one. federal investigators have granted immunity t towo trump confidants familiar with the david pecker, c.e.o. of a.m.i., the publisher of "the "national enquirer" and trump organization chief financial officer adam weisselberg. noining me, molly ball, paula

reid, abby phillip, white house condent for cnn and dan balz. dan, you wrote that what took place tuesday will ratchet up pressure on the president, embolden his critics and doubt inflame and rally his supporters. in so many ways it feels like we've been here before. a crisis moment. for president trump, candidate trump. what makes this week different? dan: two first on the manafort conviction, what that did, would ha -- the it had nothing to do with donald trump is it strengthened the hand of bob ule around the investigative team. that jury deliberated a long time. and on 10 counts they could not reach a verdict because of onel holdout but the eight quicks were very, very important. it sent a signal that this is a real investigation that has real power. so that's the first thing. the second is,el with mic

cohen, to see him make the deal that he did, and to plead to what he pleaded, and ton implicathe president, brings this to the white house in a way that it hadn't been before and as we now know as a result of everything else that's happened this week, that there is greater cooperation among people who know a lot about donald trump. we don't know where it's going to end up, obviously, but if you're in donald trump's tsition you have to feel much more pressure todhan you did a few weeks ago. robert: molly, "time" cover this week, president trump in deep. molly: i think that's a good metaphor, waters rising until they get up t your head. because there is a sense that there's such a perpetual outrage, perpetual controversy from this white house, that it can seem that something bles up, it happens and in the rearview mirror it wasn't that utgnificant because a week later we're talking a something else. in fact they have been

cumulative from the appointment of special counsel in may of 2017. the manafort indictments coming down in october of last year. it has alled up to this. so in fact each of those was its own turning point. was its own step in this process. and it just coronets to snowball. so the president, i think, as dan said has to feel like the wallsre are iingly closing in on him. it is significant that, you know, before this week, there wasn't someone going to jail. nd now there is. now there's actually two people going to jail. so the manafort -- manafort er still has ano trial but him being convicted closes, in a sense, one chapter. and then cohen, surprising everyone, with thi pleaeal, opens yet another. it's rather a pandora's box. robert: but are the walls closing in? igose are the fact bus you look at the president t in ohio, he's not acting like it. >> he's acting like a man who has a job to do. interestingly for president trump, relatively disciplined

tonight in ohio. not making any major headlines. that might ben actually a s that the president feels like he needs to be a little more circumspect. last sense of uncertainty right now more than anything else about what this all means. what is it that michael cohen provided that would have allowed the prosecutors to want to give him a plea deal. what is it that his chief financial officer, alan eisselberged that that allowed prosecutors to give him immunity. there's a lot of unanswered questions. dethink for now the pre is lashing out in certain ways on social media, in 1:00 a.m. tweets. but otherwise just trying to kind of get through his day and not loo rattled. robert: what did we learn at the sally? were the voter with him at the rally in ohio and in west virginia? >> i think they are. by all accounts trump's voters are unmoved bythhis. take his explanation for

all of these things tt wha michael cohen pled to was not a crime. that he's beingreated unfairly. and they take that at face value. tonight he's speaking before some republican party officials and that's a room of people who are -- they both love trump because he can raise money , he can bring oout the base, but they also are worried these are the very people who will be worried about what trump means for them come november, given this culture and this environment ofrosecutions, guilty pleas and criminal investigations. robert: when i think about ohio, i think about ohio governor john casish. he could run against president trump in 2020. he's making noise about it. when you think at ut w happened tuesday with manafort and cohen, it's not over. manafort has another trial. >> he has another trial nh t mo washington, d.c. this one will be similar but focus more on his work on behalf

of pro-russia, ukrainian cliticians. he's charged witspiracy against the u.s. failure to register as a foreign lobbyi. this one will have a lot more to do with russia. i think as you noted, a lot of pele saw this firstrial as a referendum on the legitimacy of the special counsel's investigation. this was a mixed verdict. they got their first jury convicons but there were 10 counts where they couldn't get the decision. i think it's a rorschacht, tes if you believe in mueller, you a say, they g conviction. and if you believe in trump, y trust it. one juror thought they were sleeping through that, why was that? robert: how about on the cohen de how big is it to have people like david pecker immunity. >>t's not unusual to grant people immity if you think they may have witingly orun

ttingly committed a crime. cohen expected to be charged months ago before immunity deal cohen didn't flip on the president. and cohen is a problemmatic witness. it would be easy to undermine him if he was your only witness agaihe president or anyone in his inner circle which is what makes the um minity deals interesting. did they provide anything about the president's involvements in these payments? it's a tease for what couldia potey come. robert: when i mentioned david pecker, head of a.m.i. which runs the "national enquirer" which has had a cozy relationship with trump for dedes how much vulnerable is trump with david pecker getting immunity, allen weisselrg, the c.f.o. of the trumping orny sarkse getting immunity? it's more than just campaign finance. dan: i think that's the big question. is the grant of immunity to the

two of the mostly aimed at shoring up what michael cohen has pleaded to, or does it open up every areas for the special counsel to investigate, to explore, and perhaps to find other things were trump o the trump organization have committed crimes or have you know, done shady things? we don't know the answer to that. but i think that one thing we see, as molly suggested, is that this case continues to build and it builds up and builds out. and all of that surrounds donald trump at this point. and so we -- you know, we have to wait for the conclusion but these two men know a heck of a lot of stuff that could be problematic for trump. >> and molly you know a heck of a lot about michael cohen, you've covered him for years. you know him as a reporter, his whims, his personality. what drove him to cooperate, to make this, to plead guilty? molly: i should say i've spoken

to him in the past, i haven't specen to himtly, i don't think a lot of reporters have. but this is someone who had such an incredible -- incredibly close relationship with donald trump. tpwhack 2011, he was t guy putting up the website trying to get trump to run for presidentt agai obama. so he's been by his side for a long time. he's had a very, very close relationship. he was the one who would call reporters and scream obscenities at them when he didn't like a stor he was very much there in trump's orbit. but as many have o pointed, weisselberg had a lot more offial responsibilities in the trump organization, had access to a lot more of the significant deal offings the organizatio as opposed to just trump personally. they're both very significant, and i think it's important too that the signicance isn't just that they decided to turn ngound, be disloyal and say nasty t they have access to a lot of information.

and so whether, you know, a potential jury or someone examining this case decides thec findel cohen credible or not that may not matter because of the informationhat is being collected. things like the tapes that we already know that he has. in the manafortri t, the jurors were told by the prosecution, our star witness isn't rick gates. it's this pe of documents. and this juror that went on fox news said, i am a trump supporter. i wanted him to be innocent. but based on all of thisev ence that we looked at, i couldn't do it. it was just all there. and so it's, we know alreadyhe from cohen indictment there's internal emails, there's all kinds of information. that prosecutors now have access to. >> we thought there was g ang to two-front war for the president, he's fighting on cohen,t battling on manaf which is part of the mueller probe. there's a thirdm front, paw las his tone attorney general, jeff sessions, already a target of the president's venting due to his recusal from the russia

probe , he punched back, h defendinself and the institution he leads. in a written statement, sessions wrote, while iy am attor general the actions of the department will not be improply influenced by political considerations. i demand the highest standards. and when they are not met, i take action.he continues to refuse to resign. is that because the president doesn't want to be seen as obstructing justice? >> we've asked the president this. why don't you f juste attorney general sessions? you have the power to do that, you're not shy about firing people. he always sort of waves it off, we'll see. so it appears there's some sort of issue with optics, that's the 't fire e d.n.a. doe his attorney general. but remember, when the president is tweeting at this point about the attorney general, pressuring him to resign. that's not going to happen. that's clear. jeff sessions las vegases his job. he's unilaterally enforcing policies heouldn't do through the senate. if he wanted someone to look into clinton emails, you have to

pressure rod rosenstein. who are they talking to? jeffessions is talking to the rank and file, they're eeustrated he hasn't more forceful on pushing back about the president and the -- and his allies and the criticism they've put on the dartment. and the president is talking to his supporters trying to undermine the justice department some see it as a feud between the two. i think they're talking past each other. neither one is going to get what they want out of the other. ro 1rt: abby,% talking about the president in highway, voters seem to be with him, he's fiant. but there were some cracks among the republicans on capitol hill this week. some of the republican senators said if you move on sessions, you may lose us. abby: i think there have been changes on capitol hill. there are still a lot of republicans who support sessions, who think it's a bad idea for the president to fire m. but i think we are starting to see some other republicans, many of them friends ofon ses who used to hold the line, saying,

you knownt what, mr. presif you want to do this, you need to wait, do it after the mid-term leches when we have more bandwidth and can actually take this up. at is significant for a lot of different reasons. one, because it does open the door for theresident to potentially do this at some point. it's an acknowledgment th this is a toxic situation that cannot continue. jeff ssions' friends, like lindsey graham and chuck grassley, are the one saying, you can do this, but do it later, mr. president. i think the sessions situati for trump is one that he's been unwilling to deal with because he kno what the consequences are. he knows that he probably can'te tolerate tons againsts -- consequences. and to paula's point he has to continue to talk to the base, every night there's a drum beat, re jeff sessions, fire rod rosenstein, fire all the people that trump appointed to those jobs within the department of justice and the president has to respond to that in some way and this is how he does it.

robert: do you see a break in the g.o.p. as the president continues to chip away at sessions, dan? dan: not yet. i think the republicans have -- are tick sticking with the bargain they have made, which is they'll try to get as much from trump being president as they can of their own agenda, whether it's judges, the tax bill they got earlier, all those things, and they will stick with him until there is something more significant than we've seen that could be the mid-term elections. that could be the inflection point that affects republica a uch broader way, if the republicans take a real beating in november, and i'm not saying that's going to happen, but i that were to happen, then republicans are going to have to reassess what it means to be as loyal as they have been. but until then, i think they're going to try to ride it out. i don't think they want to create additional controversy eading into those elections. >> and we have to remember, jeff sessions pays vy little attention to anything outside of immigration. since the day he took office

he's been squarely focused o strict immigration enforcement. some people think he's been too strict, obvusly, with separating families. but that's something the resident campaigned on and t president's supporters know sessionssstaffing court, he's done so many things to deliver on that campaign promise. one oon thequences if you did try to oust him, some of thn press supporters will say he was the one delivering on that campaign promise. >> not just immigration but criminal justice. he's tough on crime -- he's pushed this tough on crime agenda. that's what he talks about when he goes around the country talking to sheriffs, that was another part of the statement that sessions issued at the very beginning, said he feels that he is winning for the president. he feel he is isxecuting the president's agenda as paula said he never gets credit for that, fr the president. the president doesn't appreciate it very much. but that's really what the utility that sessions sees for thimself. >> a democrats watch all this, molly, we're sayings that

iftal week for trump. but what about for the democrats? they seem pretty i muted when comes to talking about impeachment. >> you had nancy pe he see send another letter to the rank and file demrats in the house saying let's keep focus on the economy. let's talk about the corruption of the republicans, talk about their enabling of trump. let's not talk about the i-wordm achment. the feeling is this alienates independent voters because it seem like a partisan political battle and seems like a personal battle against the president. the democrat's base is quite activated and you know, get a lot of coverage but in a lot of cities, practically every weekend, there's an impeachment march, a protest against trump for one thing or another. that'sriving the enthusiasm that democrats expect will power them to big gains in novembe but they're very much -- most of them in lockstep with this message that's trying to focus . something substanti trying to turn the focus to the

republicans they're running against rather than the president who is not on the ballot. >> smart politics? or are they missing the opportunity of a lifetime to energize the base? dan: their base is energized. to put the impeachment front and centerould create conflict particularly in a lot of districts. it's ns a though every district is deep blue. a lot of districts have swing voters. they're competitive districts. i think that's difficult. i think both republicans and democrats right now are sort of playing a double game on the impeach. issue. we'll see what happens after november. but it is -- it's premature frankly based onry eing we know yet to get too far into that discussion. he i think if's one thing that republicans and perhaps the presidents thi might work in their favor here, encircling of the president with all these various different probes, the special counsel probe, the southern district of new y potentially one coming from new york state prosecutors, could create an atmosphere in which

he perceived to be unfairly under siege. it's something they always cite lillon, during the impeachment fervor, his approvas ratingsg. there's some argument to be made that they can use thats tool to help inoculate the president. i'm not sureow much it will inoculate republicans writ large as a district-by-district level but certainly the president has already proven to be pretty sp resilient ie of all of. this he's stayed much where he's en in terms of his approval ratings. i think they believe tha of that has to do with the fatigue from all. this fatigue from russia and the investigations. robert: what about inside the white house? it seemed on wednesday after tuesday's events, quiet. >> very quiet. i think we saw sarah sanders come out, clearly at the behest of presidentrump, to say, almost nothing. surprisingly scheduling a briefing which she does not

ften do and she went out there basically to repeat a single talking point. the president has not been .arged with a cri and there is no collusion. and he did nothing wrong. she did tha over a over again but added not much and she seemed weary from all of this. robert: we have to leave there. appreciate all of you being here tonight. great conversation. before we go, a momen to recognize senator john mccain. and his family. the veteran arizona senator has decided to discontinue medical treatmt in hisbattle with brain cancer. today his wife cindy tweeted about her love for her husband and expressed her appreciation for the outpouring of support. the senate halls and american politics haven'teethe same with him away. we need to leave you early tonight but please stay tuned and support your local pbs station. and our conversation will continue on the "washington week" extra, find it after 10:00 p.m. eastern every friday

pbs.org/washingtonweek. i'm robert costa, thanks for joining us. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> funding for "washington wee is provided by newman's own foundation, donating all prots from newman's own food products to charity andri ning the common good. the ethics and excellence in journalismoundation. the yuen foundation, committed to bridging culturalifferences

in our communities. the corporation for public broadcastingnd by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you.

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