robert: convictions, immunity ills and ait showdown the attorney general. is the trump presidency at a turning point?e i'm rrt costa, welme to "washington week." >> he took the job and then he said i'm goingo recuse myself. i said what kind of a man is this? robert: the attorney general stands up to president trump's criticism that he neverook control of the justice department. lud vows the agency will not be improperly iced by politics. but the feud between the once-close allies has republicans taking sides. >> i think there'll come a time, sooner rather than later, wher 'll be time to have a new face and fresh voice at the department of justice. robert: and the president's former attorney generalichael cohen pleads guilty to eight criminal counts including campaign finance violations connected to payoffs of two

women. >> by the way, he pled to two counts that aren't a rime which nobody understands. robert: trump insists the convictions of cohen and former campaign chairman paul manafort have nothing to do with him. >> whe is the collusion? they're still looking for collusion, where is the collusion? bert: we cover it all, next >> this is "washington week." coorate fundi is provided by newman's own foundation, donating allro profits newman's own food products to charity andourishing the common good. the yuen foundation, committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities. the ethics and excellence in journalism foundation. the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs stations from viewers like you. thank you. once again, from washington,

moderator robert costa. robert: good evening. what a week. two courtroom dramas featuring the president's former campaign chairman paul manafort andis longtime attorney michael cohen and immunity deals with tos allies. all of it could change the course of donald trump's presidency. on tuesday, a jury convicted manafort on eight of 18 cous of tax evasion and bank fraud. the "washington post" reported e that the pre has privately considered a pardon for manafort but his lawyers have so far advisedgainst it. that samay, former trump attorney michael cohen brought the legal clouds even closer to the president. cohen pleaded guilty to violating campaign finance laws: under oath he stunned the pnhattan courtroom when he said theayments to women alleging n fairs were, quote, coordination with and at the direction of a candidate for federal office.

that statement contradict what is the president once told reporters. >> did you know about the $130,000 payment to stormy daniels? >> no.>> id you -- did you give him the money to make that payment? robert: the president appeared on fox news with his latest defense, the payments weren't campaign related. >> did you know about the payments? later on. but you have to understand, what he did and they weren't taken out of campan finance, that's a much bigger thing, did they come out they have campaign? they didn't comout they have campaign. they came from me. iweeted about it. robert: but mr. trump's word won't be theime one. ave al investigators granted immunity to two trump confidants familiar with th matter. david pecker, c.e.o. of a.m.i., the publisher of "the "national enquirer" and trump organization chief financial a officerm weisselberg.

>> noining me, mollyla ball, p reid, abby phillip, white house correspondent for cnn andan balz. dan, you wrote that what took plac tuesday will ratchet up pressure on the president,bo en his critics and no doubt inflame and rally his supporters. in so many ways it feels like we'veeen here before. a crisis moment. for president trump, candidate trump. what makes this week different? dan: two things. first on the manafort conviction, what that did, it would have -- the it had nothing too with donald trump is it strengthened the hand of bob mule around thenvestigative team. that jury deliberated a long time. and on 10 counts they could not ach a verdict because of one lone holdout but the eight quicks were very, very important. it sent a signal that this is a real investigation that has real power.

so that's the first thing the second is, with michael cohen, to see him make theeal that he did, and to plead to what he a pleade to implication the president, brings this to the white house in a way that it hadn't been before and as we now know as a result of everything else that's happened this week, that there is greater cooperation among people who know a lot about donald trump. don't know where it's going to end up, obviously, but if you're in donald trump's position you haveo feel much more pressure today than you did a few weeks ago. robert: molly, "time's" cover this week, president trump in deep. molly: i think that's a good metaor, waters rising until they get up to your head. because there is a sense that there's such a perpetual outrage, perpetual controversy from t ts white house,t it can seem that something bles up, it happens and in the rearview mirror it wasn't that significant because a week later we're talking about something

else. in fact they have bmun tive from the appointment of special counsel in may of 2017. the manafort indictments coming down in october of last year. it has all led up to this. so in fact each of those wasts own turning point. was its own step in this process. and it just coronets to snowball. so the president, i think, as dan said has to feel like the walls are increasingly closing in on him. it is signicant that, you know, before this week, there wasn't someone going to jail. and now there is. now there's actually two people going to jail. so theanafort -- manafort still has another trial but him being convicted closes, in sense, one chapter. surprising n, everyone, with this plea deal, opens yet another. it's rather a pandora's box. robert: but are the walls closing in? those are the fact bus you look at the president tonight in ohio, he's not acting like it. >> he's acting like a man who has a job to do. interestingly for president

trump, relately disciplined tonight in ohio. not making any major headlines. th might be actually a sign that the president feels like he needs to be a little more circumspect. last sense of uncertain right w more than anything else about what this all means. what is it t michael cohen provided that would have allowed the prosecutors to want to give him plea deal. what is it that his chief financial officer, alange weisselbthat that allowed prosecutors to give him immunity. there's a lot of unanswered questions. i think for now the president is lashing out in certain ways on socialin media 1:00 a.m. tweets. but otherwise just trying to kind of get through his day and not look rattled. robert: what did we learn at the rally? were the voters with him at the rally in ohio and in west virginia? >> i think they are. by all accounts trump's voters are uoved by this.

they take his explanation for all of these things that what michael cohen pled to was not a crime. that he's being treated unfairly. and they takeachat at value. tonight he's speaking befor some republican party officials and that's a room ofeoe who are -- they both love trump because he can raise money , he can bring oout t base, but they also are worried. these are the very people whoor will beed about what trump means for them come november, given this culture and this environment of prosecutions, guilty pleas and criminal investigations. robert: when i think about ohio, i ink about ohio governor john casish. he could run against president trump in 2020. he's making noise aboutt. when you think about what happened tuesday with manafort and cohen, it's not over. manafort has another tri. e has another trial next month in washington, d.c. this one will be similar but

focus more on his work on behalf of pro-russia, ukraini politicians. he's charged with conspiracy against the u.s. failure to registeror as agn lobbyist. this one will have a lot more to do with russia. i think as you noted, a lot of people saw this first trial as a referendum on the legitimacy of the special counsel's investigation. this was a mixed verdict. ir they got their jury convictions but there were 10 counts where thecouldn't get the decision. i think it's a rorschach test, if you believe in mueller you say, they got a conviction. and if you believe in trump, you trust it. one juror thought they re sleeping through that, why was that? robert: how aboutn the cohen side how big is it to have people like david pecker immunity. >> it's not unusual to grant people immunity if you think

they may have witingly or unwittingly committed a crime. cohen expected to be charged months ago before immunity deals. cohen didn't flip on the president. and cohen is a problemmatic witness. it would be easy to undermine him if he was your only witness against the president or anyone in his inner circles which i what makes the um minity deals interesting. p did thvide anything about the president's involvements in these payments? it's a tea for what could potentially come. robert: when i mentioned david pecker, head of a.m.i. wch runs the "national enquirer" which has had a cozyip relationith trump for decades how much vulnerable is trump with david pecker getting immunity, allen weisselberg, the c.f.o. of the trumping orny sarkse getting immunity? it's more than just campaign finance. dan: i think that's the big

question. is the grant of immunity to the wo of them mostly aimed at shoring up what michael cohen has pleaded to, or does i open up every areas for the special counsel to investigate, to explore, and perhaps to find other things where trump or the trump organization have committed crimes or have done, you know, done shady things?'t we dnow the answer to that. but i think that one thing we see, as molly suggested, is that this case ctinues to build and it builds up and builds out. and all of that surrounds donald trump at thisnt p and so we -- you know, we have to wait for theonusion but these two men know a heck of a lot of stuff that could be problematic for trump. >> and molly you know a heck of a lot about michael cohen, you've covered him for years. you know him a reporter, his whims, his personality. what drove him to coopera, to make this, to plead guilty?

molly: i should say i've spoken to him in t past, i haven't spoken to him recently, i don't think a lot of reporters have. but this is someone who had suci an ince -- incredibly close relationship with donald trump. tpwhack 2011, he was the guy putting up the website trying to get trumpo runor president against obama. so he's been by his side for a he's had a very, very close relationship. he was the one who would call reporters and scream obscenities at them'then he di like a story. he was very much there in trump's orbit. but as many have pointed out, weisseerg had a lot more official responsibilities in the trump organization, had access to a lot more of the signifigsnt deal off the organization as opposed to just trump personally. ey're both very significant, and i think it's important too that the significance isn't just that they decided to turn around, b disloyal and say nasty things. they have access to a lot of information.

and so wther, you know, a potential jury or someone examining this cas decides they find michael cohen credible or not that may not matter because of the information that is being collected. things like the tapes that we already know that he has. in the manafort trial, the jurors were told by the prosecution, our star witness ist rick gates. it's this pile of documents. and this juror that went on news said, i am a trump supporter. i wanted him to be iocent. but based on all of this evidence that we looked at, i couldn't do it. it was just all there. and t' we know already from the cohen indictment there's internal emails, there's l kinds of information. ehat prosecutors now have access to. >> thought there was going to be a two-front war for the president, he's fighting on cohen, battling on manafort which is part of the mueller probe. there's a third front, paw lasm his tone attorney general, jeff sessions, already target of the president's venting due to

his recusal from the russia probe , h punched back, defending himself and the institution he leads. in a written statement, sessions wrote, while i am attorney general the actions of the department will not be improperly influenced by political considerations. i demand the highest standarhe. and wn they are not met, i take action. he continues to refuse to resign. is that because the president doesn't want to be seen as obstructing justice? >> we've asked the president this. y don't you just fire attorney general sessions? you have the power to do that,u not shy about firing people. he always sort of waves it we'll see. so it appears there's some sort of issue with optics, that's the reason he d.n.a. doesn't fire his attorney general. but remember, when the president is tweeting at this point about the attorney general, he's not pressuring him to resign. that's not going to happen. that's clear. jeff sessions las vegases hisjo he's unilaterallynforcing policies he couldn't do through the senate. if he wanted someone to lookon

into cli emails, you have to pressure rod rosenstein.e who hey talking to? jeff sessions is talking to the rank and file, they're frustrated he hasn't been more forceful on pushing back about th president and the -- and his allies and the criticism they've put on the department. and the president is talking to to supporters tryin undermine the justice department. some see it as a feud between the two. i think they're talking past each other. neither one is going to get what they want out of the other. robert: abby, 100% talking about the president in highway, votert seem to be him, he's defiant. but there were some cracks among the republicans on capitol hill this week. some of the republican senators said if you move on sessions, you may lose us. abby: i think there have been changes on capitol hill. there are still a lot of republicans who support sessions, who think it's a idea for the president to fire him. but i think we are starting to see some other republicans, mmy of t friends of sessions, who

used to hold the line, saying, you know what, mr. president if you want to do this, you need to wait, it after the mid-term leches when we have more alndwidth and can ac take this up. that is significant for a lot of different basons. onause it does open the door for the president to potentially do this at some point. it's an acknowledgment that this is a toxic situation that cannot continue. jeff sessions' friends, like lindsey grahamnd chuck grassley, are the ones saying, you can do this, but do it lasir, mr. pnt. i think the sessions situation for trump is one that he's been unwilling to deal with because he knows what the consequences are. he knows that he probably can't tolerate those cons againsts -- consequences. and to paula's point he has to continue to talk to the base, every night there's a drum beat, fire jeff sessions, fire rod rosenstein, fire all the people that trump appointed to those jobs within the department of justice and the president has to respond to that in some w and

this is how he does it. robert: do you see a break in the g.o.p. as e president continues to chip away at sessions, dan? dan: not yet. i think the republicans have -- are tick sticking with the bargain they have made,hich is they'll try to get as much from trump being president ashey can of their own agenda, whether it's judges, b the taxl they got earlier, all those things, and they will stick with him i until the something more significant than we've seen that could be the mid-term elections. that could be the infltion poin that affects republicans in a much broader way, if the republicans take a real beating in november, and i'm not that's going to happen, but if that were to happen, then republicans are going to haveo reassess what it means to be as loyal as they have been. but until the i think they're going to try to ride it out. i don't think they want to createit anal controversy now heading into those elections. >> and we have to remember,eff sessions pays very little attention to anything outside of

e migration. sie day he took office he's been squarely focused on strict immigration enforcement. some people think he's been too strict, obviously, with separating families. but that's somethingthe presid campaigned on and the president's supporters know sessions is staffing court, he's done so many things to deliver on that campaign promise. one of the consequences if you did try to oust him, some of the president's supporters will say he was the one delivering on that campaign promise. >> not jusmmration but criminal justice. he's tough on crime -- he's ou pushed this on crime agenda. that's what he talks about when he goes around the country talking to sheriffs, that was another part of the statement that sesonsssued at the very beginning, said he feels that he is winning for the president. he feel he is is executing the president's agenda as paula saic he never getdit for that, from the president. the president doesn't appreciate it very much. but that's really what the utility that sessions sees for himself. >> as the democrats watch all this, molly, we'reaygs that

poiftal week for trump. but what about for the democrats? they seem pretty muted when it comes to talking about impeachment. >> you had nancy pe he see send other letter to the rank and file democrats in the house saying let's keep focus on the economy. let's talk about corruption of the republicans, talk about their enabling of trump. let's not talk about the i-word, impeachment. the feeling is this alienates er independent v because it seems like a partisan political battle and seems like aba persol le against the president. the democrat's base is quite activated and you know, doesn't get a lot of coverage but in a lot of cities, practically every weekend, there's an impeachment march, a protest against trump for one thi or another. that's driving the enthusiasm that democrats expect will powet thbig gains in november. but they're very much -- most them in lockstep with this message that's trying to foc on something substantive. trying to turn the focus to the

republicans they're actually running against rather than the president who is not on the >> smart politics? or are they missing the opportunity of a lifetime to energize the base? dan: theirase is energized. to put the impeachme front and center would create conflict of cularly in a l districts. it's not as though every district is deep blue. a lotic of dis have swing voters. they're competitive districts. i think t i think both republicans and democrats right now are sort of playing a dble game on the impeach. issue. we'll see what happens after november. but it is -- it's premature frankly based on everything we know yet to get too far into that discussion. >> i think if there's one thing that republicans a perhaps the president thinks might work in their favor here, encircling of the president with all these various different probes, the the al counsel probe southern district of new york, potentially one coming from new york state prosecutors, could

create an atmospher in which he's perceived to be unfairly under siege. it's t somethiy always cite bill clinton, during the impeachment h fervor, approval ratings rising. there's some argument to be made thathey can use that as a tool to h pp inoculate thesident. i'm not sure how much it will inoculate rublicans writ large as a district-by-district level but certainly the president has already proventt to be p resilient in spite of all of. this he's m stayedh where he's een in terms of his approval rating i think they believe that some of that has to do with the fatigue from all. this fatigue from russia and the investigations. robert: whatut anside the white house? it seemed on wednesday after tuesday's events,uiet. >> very quiet. i think we saw sarah sanders come out, clearly at bheest of president trump, to say, almost nothing. surprisingly scheduling a

briefing which she does not ten do and she went out there basically to repeat a single talking point.as the presidentot been charged with a crime. and there is no collusion. and he did nothing wrong. she did that over and over again but added not much and she seemed weary from all othis. robert: we have to leave it there. appreciate all of you being here n.night. great conversat before we go, a moment to recognize senator john mccaiam and hisy. the veteran arizona senator has cided to discontinueedical treatment in his battle with brain cancer. today his wife cindy tweeted about her love for her husband and exprepped herciation for the outpouring of support. the senate halls andmerican politics haven't been the same with him away. we need to leave you early tonight but please stay tuned and support your local pbs station. and our conversation will continue on the "washington week" extra, find it after p.m. eastern every friday atg/

pbs.shingtonweek. i'm robert costa, thanks for joining us. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, acich is responsible for its caption content anracy. visit ncicap.org] >>funding for "washington week" is provided by newman's own foundation, donating all profits from newman's own food products to charity and nourishing the common good. the ethics ande excelle in journalism foundation. the yuenda fouon, committed

to bridging cultural differences in our communities. the corporation for public broadcasting and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you.

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