welcome to "amanpour" on pbs. we're looking back at some of our favorite interviews this year. tonight, lessons from 9/11, and why extremism will remain a threat for a very long time. my interview with the former fbi special agent and interrogator ali soufan. plus, one of the world's most celebrated novelists and feminists, ngozi adiche. ♪ good evening, everyone. welcome to the program. i am christiane amanpour in london.

when it comes to the fight against terror, few people come close to soufan's experience. he made his name investigating al qaeda plots before 9/11 and interrogating kad suspects after those attacks. sof only which is proclaimed in "the looming tower." here in this clip is soufan questioning bin laden's bodyguard.

>> soufan has since left the fbi and now he runs his own security consul tan si. he tells me the threat from isis and all the al qaeda spinoffs remain high indeed. we spoke as the paperback version of his book "anatomy of terror" hit the shelves. ali soufan, welcome to the p>> thank you for having me. >> you have become known as the explainer in chief about this terrorism, about this breed of terrorism, al qaeda, isis, that we're having to deal with. and it started very early for you, didn't it? >> yes, 1997, i believe.

>> what did you know then that we didn't know? >> my major was international relations and my focus was impact of state actors on the stability in the middle east. i was reading the newspapers and i stumbled into this man who was doing interviews in sudan and talking about his vision and what he wanted to do. and i wrote a memo about it and it went to my boss, john o'neill. >> who was the director of fbi. >> he was the head of national security and the fbi. when he read the memo, he told me that we have a case opened for this man and a small group of people in the fbi and cia are already working on him and they are looking on him as a possible terrorist financier. so i continued to work a little bit helping john and analyzing

al qaeda and bin laden at the time. >> he was the instigator. he was the whole thing. it was osama bin laden. >> the east african embassy bombing in 1998 was the very first overt attack by al qaeda. now we are taking him seriously and we start working with our allies around the world. our first, you know, stop was in the uk. the main office for bin laden was actually in london. and we worked very closely with our colleagues in scotland yard to disrupt the plot. >> did the intelligence services here know what they were up against? did they understand how serious this was? >> well, at the very beginning, i mean, there was no understanding even in the u.s. itself, you know, when we were working on osama bin laden and we actually indicted him in a sealed indictment in june of 1998, before the east african bombing, we had a lot of

difficulty convincing people in washington that individual was a threat. so yes, most of the islamists who were here in london were peaceful people, escaping the tyranny in their own government, and there was no problem with them being, you know, practicing the freedom of speech and the freedom of expression in a place like the uk would give. but you have a small amount of individuals, people li s -- >> all the legendary names, if i can use that, of al qaeda, all in jail. >> all in jail now. >> you have written that al qaeda and its successors basically this entity is like a multiheaded -- it's like whack-a-mole. it's not just one thing. has the west or those against this kind of radical jihadism got a grip right now? is the combat against them enough? i mean, it's really only

militarism, is that enough? >> absolutely not. in order to effectively take them down, we have to think in two separate ways. you have the terrorist network, and it takes a network to take down a network. after 9/11, the war in iraq was the catastrophe that gave the network back its oxygen, its blood, and everything it needs to grow and even grow bigger than it used to be before. the other element is combatting the ideology, combatting the narrative, combatting the narrative that the west and the united states is basically declaring a war on islam. and unfortunately, throughout the war on terrorism, we played into the narrative of the bad guys. the invasion of iraq for no reason played into that. secret jails and black sited

into that. guantanamo bay played into that. going into the middle east without a comprehensive strategy played into that. recent messages from the administration about muslim bans, for example, plays into that. the increase of islamaphobia in e west, even by politicians, taking the fringe elements and making them main stream, plays into that. so today we were in a way worse situation i believe before 9/11. what is? >> absolutely. i'll give you an example -- you just said we took down the network, the united states declared with its coalition that if it has not killed off -- >> until 2003. >> and severely neutralized isis. >> until 2003, we took the network, but the network is back. isis just is going through a phase. you know, isis today is where al qaeda was after 2001. it's going from a propertio state now to an underterrorist

organization. the idea is not al qaeda or isis or any name, the idea is the ideology and the message and the narrative that they have. before 9/11, al qaeda had 400 members. 400 members, 19 of them were killed on that day. today, the people who adhere to the narrative of osama bin laden are in the thousands. look at syria. look at the movement in somalia. look at yemen. before we only had afghanistan. we had kandahar, jalalabad, a couple of training camps. now because of the failures and the aftermath of the arab spring, we have vacuums across the muslim world, and extremists, people like al qaeda and isis, are the only ones who are able to fill these vacuums. >> that is a lot more populistic than i thought.

we are told that the caliphate is over, the attacks against these terrorist cells in these various places you've been talking about, you are the expert on this. so how does one confront this? >> first of all, this ideology, this narrative has been resilient. after 9/11, we destroyed al qaeda and afghanistan, kicked the taliban out for a period of time. however, al qaeda shifted from being an organization to being a network, to being a message. and it's very difficult to fight a message. the second element that i would like to talk about today is sectarianism. today, sectarianism in the middle east is the main unifier of a lot of these extremists. >> you mean sunni, shia -- >> the proxi war between saudi arabia, benefiting the extremists on both sides. sometimes they try to change their mads. we're not al qaeda, we're nusra.

so they put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. the third element of it is the arab spring. that shifted the calculous of al qaeda tremendously. and the fourth and last thing about this, is to focus on the ideology. to focus on the narrative. to not play into the fear that if we talk narrative and we talk about al qaeda and isis, and we talk about them hijacking religious terminology that we're attacking islam. we're not attacking islam. i'm a muslim, and these groups don't represent anything about the beautiful religion i believe in. >> so with all of this, what is ur prediction then? where do they strike next? is the west still in mortal danger? >> absolutely. now they are building the network. look, after the soviet jihad, they didn't attack immediately. it took them years to develop the network.

now, frankly, if you talk to al qaeda or isis, what do they want to do next? they don't know what they're going to do next. now isis is trying to find new places to go to after their defeat in syria and after the loss of the territorial lands of the so-called caliphate. >> it's extraordinary. at the same time, we're reminded of the history that led to 9/11 in the looming tower, which is based on the book that you feature in it. and it's been made into a multipart series by hulu. first and foremost, have they got it right? >> well, yes. you know, there's definitely drama, it's hollywood. having said that, i think they stayed true to the investigative part of the story. but it's amazing to see the power of television. so many people are seeing it unfolding and realizing 9/11 didn't come out of thin air, that there was a lot of things that led to that day. a lot of mistakes that we did.

>> and it pointed out in minute detail by larry rice and this series the internal squabbling and conflict and holding on to their own resources between the cia and the fbi. not sharing certain information. of course, that was highlighted in the commission. do you think the structure in the u.s. is now properly aligned to avoid those kinds of mistakes? >> it is. and the relationship between the cia and the fbi is way better than it used to be. but the problem, history is repeating itself. not necessarily with the intelligence community, but because the political leadership now is not listening to the intelligence community. so the president has been briefed, the russians interfered in our election, and they didn't get an executive order, presidential order from the president to take any measures against that. that reminds me in so many different ways when we used to say osama bin laden, your first

question early on, the political leadership didn't want to listen. and today, we have the same thing. it's a different type of threat, but it's as damaging. >> and john o'neil, just your reflections this time on him? >> john was, you know, an amazing character. i know you have seen elements of his personal life in the show -- >> played by jeff daniels in the show. >> and jeff daniels, amazing. he did a great job. he played john o'neil as seen by jeff daniels. so he didn't listen to what everybody else was listening to him. but john o'diehl was an amazing guy and he had only one love, and one commitment. and it was the fbi. everything else in the world didn't matter. that's why his social life was in shambles. but john was a great leader. he understood the threat and what should be done. unfortunately, it was so tragic, because he put the focus on osama bin laden. he's the one who tried to get

osama bin laden. but on 9/11, john o'neil was in the world trade center and he was killed by al qaeda and by osama bin laden. >> in the series, they also focus on your personal life. you had this wonderful woman, you had to keep explaining to her you had to go off on secret missions that you couldn't tell her about. you are the terrorist hunter. and yet your marriage has lasted. you have kids. your unit survived. how? >> well, i think lucky, i guess. i don't know. we have angels watching over us. but she's amazing. she endured a lot. when i said one day i think we had an event at "the washington post" and somebody asked me about my day, and i left her in the restaurant, did she take you back? >> as portrayed in the series. >> i said yeah, she's my wife now. they were like, you shouldn't say that. >> that's a happy ending.

thank you so much indeed. >> thank you. my next guest has used her blockbuster book and the platform they have given her to tell often deeply uncomfortable truths about race, gender, and politics. too debate, you surprised a lot of people who hang on every word with a speech you made in stockholm this week, where you revealed for the first time that at 17, you had been agresed, you had your own ugly, unpleasant me too moment. tell me about it. >> umm, i -- this was someone who i thought would help me.

i published a book of poetry, a terrible book that i hope nobody reads. but i was young and i thought it was wonderful. i went to this man's office, he was very nice and very helpful. i was sitting across from him. he said he was so impressed, because young people were not reading and i had written this book at 17. then he got up, came around and casually put his hands on my breasts. >> just like that. >> yes. >> did you get a sense of foreboding when he got up? >> no, because nothing had prepared me for it. >> you were 17? >> yes. >> how did that shape you? how did that turn you into the feminist you are today? >> as a child, i was very much aware that the world did not treat men and women the same

way. i didn't read any feminist texts. i didn't have a moment when i said i was a feminist. i didn't know what a feminist was for a long time. >> why did you decide to tell this story now, given it's been six months since this whole revolution started? >> i think partly because -- i'm not interested in naming names, because that's not what it is for me. it's simply to say this is happening. it happens to most women. it's not unusual. i don't think i'm remarkable. but i wanted to use it to talk about why we don't talk about this. the thing about social conditioning that women go through, somebody will say why are you talking about it now? why didn't you push him off or slap him? and how our socialization teaches us to be nice and kind, even to people who hurt us.

>> you do describe an internal change that happened to you after this. all the women ask why didn't you, why are you telling us now? why weren't you, et cetera. but your whole body broke out you describe. >> i broke out in rashes shortly after that, and all over my chest, my neck, my face, and i remember my best friend, and i remember her saying, your body is saying what your lips cannot say. the loathing that you feel. i don't know if that's why i broke out. maybe i was just using the wrong moisturizer. but the point of that, even if the rashes had nothing to do with it, my spirit had a very visceral reaction to it. >> is this best friend the same one that told you that feminism is not part of our culture? >> oh, no. >> but it was a friend who said that to you?

>> it was a friend, and this friend meant well. of course, the ideal that feminism isn't part of any culture is ridiculous. i think my great grandmother was a feminist, because she spoke her mind. she wanted her own to be her own, if that makes sense, and was known to be a troublemaker, which i think is a wonderful tag for a woman, which meant she was a feminist. for me, being a feminist icon, which is something i feel very ambivalent about. when people talk about this, it doesn't really appeal to me. i don't feel a connection to it, because it's not my story. i didn't become a feminist because i read about second wave feminism. i became a feminist because i grew up in nigeria and observed the world, and just saw what felt to me like an injustice that made no sense. why were women judged more

harshly? why were all the positions of real power occupied by men? why were the positions of prestige only for men? it didn't seem to make any sense. >> i do recount in one of your talks an extraordinary story where you are with a male friend, and you want to give a tip to one of the workers there. and you give a tip, and what happens? >> and this man to whom i gave my money from my bank, he looks at me -- >> your hard work. >> he looks at me and says to my friend, thank you, sir. but here's the thing -- >> that's stark. >> but it was a wonderful moment for my friend. until then, he often said i don't understand what you say when there's a problem. women should stop complaining. that moment he said to me, why did the man thank he? you gave him the money.

>> do you have hope that this is actually on a tipping point? are we on a curve that can only go in the right direction? >> i think it could go either direction. i hope it will go in the right direction. one of the reasons i find me too hopeful is i think it's remarkable because it's the first time that women are final hi being believed. it's the first time that a kind of -- the impulse that sort -- the cultural impulse is to believe women. it's never happened. i also know that the history of women's movement, there's the possibility -- >> exactly, we see that with civil rights. we all are wondering whether this amazing never again movement is the anti-gun movement by the young people will keep moving forward or get marginalized. the same about race, particularly in the united states, or black lives matter.

and the seeming -- it just seems that that struggle never gets to the top of the mountain. >> yes. >> and i know that you're always asked about it, and you've often said that you're tired sometimes of catering to white sensitivities and sensibilities about this issue. and sometimes you get yourself in trouble in various audiences because of that. but you're obviously saying something massive hi important, so where do you see the struggle over racism in your own environment, whether it's in theite, evthe ite united states, even in africa. >> it's hard to talk about racism in africa, because the context is so different. we have many problems in nigeria, but race is not one of them. in the u.s., which is a country that racism is such a genetic center of america.

and because of that, i think it's going to take a long time. it took, i don't know, 250 years of racism to create america and since the civil rights movement, which hasn't quite achieved what it's supposed to achieve. you look at the u.s. and you look at cities, and i remember when i came to the u.s. and i thought why are the cities full of black people? and ostensibly it's because they don't work hard or -- that's not true. you have to read the history and you realize there are government policies that excluded african-americans. and i think what's happening now, i do think that black lives matter has done remarkable work. if we can measure progress in terms of what we can now see, i think black lives matter has contributed a lot. many conversations that black people had in private that they're now having publicly. >> that's cause for hope, particularly 50 years after

martin luther king's assassination, and you mentioned in these reports, we just reported by one that had been done by stanford and other scholarly areas where it's sadly said black boys, even if they're born into a wealthy family, right after school, they drop right off that precipice back into the pit of racism. >> you use your platform to move these agendas along. where are you in your writing life? what is happening next? where do you feel that this writing and activism is going for you? >> there are many different things. the person who writes fiction is very different for the person who pontificates about things. i'm a writer. i really do think i was born to tell stories. i think of it as a gift from god

or a gift from my ancestors. but talking about things, i have this platform that came with my fiction writing. reading and writing gives me the greatest joy. but then something happens. but i get so angry about injustice and i feel like i need to say something. and right now, i'm trying to read more poetry and i'm also trying not to have the social issues that i care about be the things that propel my fiction writing. i want to write about love and again, even love is political. >> it is indeed. it just leads me on. nigeria and kenya has its injure you of criminalizing homosexuality. there are kenyan things about this issue. this is not an important issue for the people, is it? the idea of gay rights, protection? >> i think it's very important.

to criminalize something that isn't criminal is immoral. and so we have gay nigeriians who live in fear, gay nigerians who are threatened, who have violence committed against them. i know one in particular, for example, who says that he is sometimes blackmailed by his driver, his gateman. it must hurt. we need to uphold that. they're not doing anything criminal. people should be allowed to be who they are. >> ngozi adiche, thank you so much. keep writing and keep agitating. thanks for joining us. and that's it for our program tonight. thanks for watching "amanpour" on pbs. join us again tomorrow night. >> you

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