hello, everyone. and welcome to "amanpour & co." here is what is coming up. it's the annual meeting of world leaders at the u.n. in new york. and we remember the great lessons of leadership from nelson mandela. our conversation with the great man's widow, graca mashal. our walter isaacson talks to ken burns about.

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station from viewers like you. thank you. welcome to the program, i am christiane amanpour in new york where more than 100 world leaders are gathering for the annual united nations general assembly. it comes at a time when the trump administration comes to challenge the world order. what a difference the world makes. president trump said he will meet with north korean leader km jong-un for a second time quote time soon. this time last year, he threatened to totally destroy north korea and called kim little rocket man. into these turn blant times steps in nelson mandela.

the ability to bring the death and destruction we witness on a daily basis to an end. along with mandela -- her own past as an armed freedom fighter. and she spoke movingly about her marriage. welcome to the program. >> thank you so much for having me. i want to ask you how you are feeling today. a few years ago when we spoke, well a year after nelson mandela's death, you said you are just trying to get through it and sometimes you wake up every morning and don't know what to do. how has those intervening years

treated you? >> i had reasonably good time after the second, third year. but this being the fifth and with the concentration of celebrations on his hundred years, it has not been easy. because things come back, you relive the moments together. you are forced to think about who he is, the place he has in history and it is mixed feelings. one, he is being celebrated, but mostly at a personal level, i miss him most. >> when you think about him at this time, as you say, the 100th birthday, anniversary, and also a time when we are talking about the vacuum of global leadership

and nelson mandela was the epitome of what a great leader should be. is there something that you think the world is lacking? >> courage. i see leadership as the highest reference of courageous leadership. in face of extremely challenging situations. to go beyond himself and put the lives and interests of his people at the highest level and prepare to sacrifice personall ? and even to take risks that highways leadership will be questioned by his colleagues.

but it takes courage to do the right thing at the right time. let's use the example of conflict and peace which exactly is where his contribution is most significant. we do not have anyone who can take the courage to say the war in syria has to stop. to say it is unacceptable what is happening in yemen and why in south sudan, i mean, agreement after agreement nothing holds and people continue to be killed displaced, refugees. i could go on and on. that lack of courageous leadership to do the right thing at the right time, i feel this is what is missing. >> what you hear on the

hundredth anniversary, you have this strong message, you hear in the united states president trump is going it be here all this week. and you have said that leadership and policy for the world cannot be made in 280 characters, you are talking about the tweeter in chief, am i right? >> yes. >> and what is it that is coming from the leader of the free world today. >> about certain individuals in leadership. i will leave that for other people to do it. i think there is kind of perversion of the rules through which we elect which means we select those who should be the best amongst the best precisely to defend and protect the

interest of the majority. so if there is one thing i believe we should think about again is whether the electoral systems that we have, are they delivering in terms of the will of the people, which means the majority of the people. and i'm not talking about the developed world alone. even in our part of the world. so let me say the mechanisms and the institutions and the operation we have put in place as the foundations and the edifice of the delivering of democracy today, i think we should revisit. and to say, is this the result which we intend? in many cases, i doubt it.

>> well, i'm asking you these because you have not just been the wife of two of the greatest african freedom fighters, nelson mandela, and sammora machel. tell me what brought you to that struggle and that experience tells you about what you are telling me now, the commit to democracy, the commitment to peoples' right, keeping the promise of those struggles. >> i was say student. >> that was a time when you were

trying to get rid of colonial rule. >> exactly. which we succeeded. and the first years of our independence, actually, governizing in terms of bringing top and grass roots and all sectors of society to build a common dream of what we wanted mozambique to become. >> you are a mean shot with an ak 47. you were a fighter. >> yes, i was. we all had to. because it was not only to fight for freedom in general, it was to protect ourselves to protect people. we had what we called liberated areas, areas where colonial power had no control. but now and again, we were invaded by the portuguese at the

time and you had to protect one our roles which was to make sure that those liberated areas with safe. we had our schools, our clinics and activity was continuing with the population there. and they had it to be protected. so any time you would have to be ready if anything happens. and this is part of what has build me also to believe and in practice to say you know what, you do what has to be done at the right time. and it was consolidated as well. >> you became mozambique's first female education secretary. i wonder what you make of the children being separated from their parents who are crossing the border in the united states.

and this complete nightmare for humanity down there. >> that's, again, when you believe that this is a country which is made of refugees, most of the people in the united states came from somewhere, the majority. so they themselves, they come from families of refugees in different generations. you would expect that authorities in this country would never, never discriminate against refugees, one, more particularly when it comes to children. so we just are amazed how this can happen particularly in this country. and again, when i say it looks like we need to revisit institutions, can you tell me how does it happen that the

judiciary seems not to have power enough to say this cannot happen in this country. this is a democracy that men consolidated. it is unacceptable. it is sad. in practice, why do they have to take so long time to resolve a problem when a child is being harassed and put if prison. the process is too long and the trauma with these kids will live with them for the rest of their lives. so there is something here in the delivery of the values and principles of the democracy. it has to be much more efficient. it cannot be we have the luxury of waiting and while we wait, much more damage is done to people. >> you mentioned the judiciary,

you are here at an important moment. the rights and legal rights including women. the nomination of judge kavanaugh and the me too movement that is going on. i wonder if you reflect with what is happening with women in this country right now, the rise up movement. and the risks still even in the united states to women's rights. >> as you know, the issue of women's rights it's my life. i have to say that one of the biggest challenges of assume family today is exactly to accept the respected dignity of women as full human beings who are not second class or not

treated just as half human. what happens here in the united states is happening all over the globe. you would wonder why we have so high rates of femiside, of high rates of sexual harassment, people are seen as objects and not people as dignity. after all these years where we developed the values of human rights and respect it is exactly between human relations, it is no longer the laws and institutions, it is human relations where we fail to accept one another as equals. i think it is a big, big issue of our times.

>> you have it in your own family. your own daughter was aggressed by her partner. how difficult is it, here you are, you are graca machel. what should happen to people who do that to women. she was aggressed and her eye was severely damaged. >> exactly. she can only see with one eye. this is a tough issue for me to talk about. perhaps, i was told through this assault to my daughter that it is not because she was born in

the family she was born, we are absolutely facing this same kind of challenge like any other family in any other level of society. and this has humbled us. but your question is accountability, i will tell you institutions are not prepared to be accountable when it comes to women. no, not at all. there are very few cases which are taken from a to zet. and you can say justice has been served, very few cases. there is all kind of tricks, if my daughter could tell the story, you would be hor ririfie.

she is my daughter, and she is known in mozambique and had to go through all of this. that is why she decided to establish an organization to help other women who are survivors of violence and it is part of what i said in the beginning, women are not treated as full human being with respect to their dignity. they are things, they are, you know, so they can be treated the way they do. and those who are responsible don't even shiver. and this encourage, of course the perpetrator because they know there won't be consequences. and if there are consequences, it is one amongst a thousand. so we have a huge, huge issue here with the issue of this violence. >> not just in situations of your daughter and other violence

like that, but in the whole me too movement, we are seeing here and across the world right now. i want to ask about something happier, clearly you met and married two men who appreciate women like you, a strong women, a fighter, somebody with great heart and passion and intellect. i know sometimes it irritates when you are asked how was it that you married these two amazing leaders? >> i don't think i can explain. first you have to remember that if somara been killed, i would not have married.

so circumstances with somara we had that complete identity around the freedom of our people. we are both freedom fighters and would really embrace completely the principles of what is the meaning to be in society and to give to your society. then he was killed and i had about eight years after this when i met madibba at a particular time, he was lonely because it was after his divorce and we started talking and he discovered that despite my sort of exuberant personality, i was also lonely, so it was a meeting of two souls who had known what it means to be in a marriage and

at the same time to be lonely. and issues where we were absolutely aligned. the children issues one of them to give an example. and the meeting of souls then facilitated the rest. but it was circumstances. it is not like other people find, like it was an extraordinary thing to marry, i married two men. it is not anything extraordinary. many women who have two marriages in life. it is simply that in my case, they happen to be extraordinary human beings and i want to underline this. extraordinary human bodies and that i can say i was very lucky. >> i read that it took you many, many years, you wore black after

president samora was killed in that plane crash. and you said you were fortunate to meet maddibba at the best time. >> we were both mature. love, wasn't just to say you have beautiful eyes. it was looking deep in the soul of the partner you have. because of that, our connection was really very, very deep. second, he had gone through all kinds of sacrifices of life.

for the first time, he was going to have time for himself and time for family. and even time to enjoy the company of his wife. i don't want to go back to say the circumstances in which his first marriage was, but the reality was that there were very turbulent years for them. time for being a family was very, very short. so in reality, madiba had the opportunity to enjoy the normally of a family is when he married me. it was the best for me because both in terms of his soul being with peace with himself, he could bring peace with himself, at the same taime, he could hav a family.

i gave him the opportunity of having under his roof, his children, his grandchildren, and great grandchildren. and this gave him a lot of joy. for the first time, he could have this. so it was the best of times because his spirit was in peace with himself. his soul could connect in such deep way with another soul. socially, he could have really the opportunity of being the head of his family and enjoy time with his grandchildren and great grandchildren. so he was really a happy man. so i met him at a time that he could be a happy man. and this is what really gives me the joy that this man we celebrate in all forms et cetera, et cetera. at the end of his life, i made

him happy. >> that is just beautiful. and it is wonderful to be able to speak to you on this the 100th anniversary of madiba's birth. thank you. >> thank you, pleasure. >> such candid memories, and turn from a real life love stories to one of hollywood's biggest heart throb who is also a leader when it comes to the environment. from "barefoot in the park," to "out of africa." . his new film, the old man and the gun is about a real live bank robber forest tucker. in and out of prison all that time. we talked about redford's life, these times and why when he said it is retiring, it might not be all its cracked up to be.

robert redford, welcome back to the program. >> my pleasure. >> now, you have come out with "the old man and the gun," which is again about outlaws. >> i have always related to outlaws so why not. >> forest tucker is an amazing guy, a bank robber since he was a teenager. and even when he had the chance to go straight, he didn't. what was it about? >> he loved robbing banks and did it with a great joy and a smile on his face. and he got caught, he always went to prison, and he always escaped. for me, it must have been the three of those things that he got hooked. i felt it was a great story because he had fun doing it.

and for me, the last film i loved doing it with jane fonda, it was a sad love story, so kind of on a dark side so nice to step up into something more up beat and fun. and that is what this represents. >> especially for these times. >> these are dark times. >> so did you actually think about that when you did this fairly fun film? >> i did. i thought we are surrounded by darkness and can't escape it. it is beyond our ability. >> so also a love story in a way, you meet sissy spacek, she is the character. >> that was easy. >> and it is very moving to see the two of you have this relationship especially two people of a certain age finding this live late in life, this

relationship. so there is a great clip that we are going to play where you are explaining to sissy spacek why you were doing the robberies. >> say this is a bank and that is a teller window. so you walk up and look her in the eye and say ma'am, this is a robbery. and you show her the gun. you aren't going to get hurt because i like you a lot. >> you have done quite a few outlaw films, the best most famous one is "butch cassidy and the sun dance kid." what i found fascinating is you were kind of like that as a kid, a rebel. >> yes, that's true. as i got older and went into acting, i was drawn into the idea of outlaw characters.

what is interesting though, i don't know how many people have picked up, is paul newman and i, initially he was offered the sun dance kid, and i was going to be butch cassidy. and when i met with the director, i said i can do that, but i am much more drawn to the sundance kid. so they switched the title. >> we have to play, you know, the iconic clip from "butch cassidy and the sundance kid." >> all right. i'll jump first. you jump first. what's the matter with you? >> i can't swim. [ laughter ] why, you crazy, the fall would

probably kill you. oh! >> that gave you a whole new exposure. that is what launched you into the career that you now apparently retiring from. are you really retiring. >> i should never have said anything like that. just moving into a different territory. i've acted long enough. but i didn't want to make a big deal out of it because i thought that distracted from the value of the film and the cast. >> is this the last film you plan to do as an actor? >> maybe. >> i'm going to play you a clip of when i asked you the same thing in an interview we did in paris in 2015 and you were

already talking about potentially moving back from being an act or. a . >> i think probably, as i really look back on it, i don't really mean it. i think the idea seemed good. but when you get right down to it, that's not who i am. the idea is when you are born, when you are being raised, you want to make the most of your life and that's what i decided. i want to make the most of what i have been given. you push yourself forward and try new things and that's invigorating. and i guess i found out, rather than retiring, that feels better, keep moving. >> that's it. still the same. i still feel the same way. so rather than talking about retiring, you just move kind of slip easily into another territory.

>> and the particular territory you want to slip into now is which? >> directing. >> you got an oscar for "ordinary people." you tackled something that wasn't tackled on the screen. this mental illness. what was it about the subject matter at that time in suburban america that made you want to do that film? >> because i was very drawn to the idea that a lot of people wanted to appear to be something they weren't. and that a lot of people were not really happy but tried to appear to be happy. and when i went into that territory in lake forest illinois, i realized there were a lot of people, what was really important to them is how they looked and how they seemed,

their lawn was cut. and yet, underneath that was perhaps a different story, a darker one. and i was very attracted to that idea. let's explore the darker und pinnings. >> one of the sons drowned, died in a sailing accident. and the clip, i am going to play, the surviving son explaining to his psychiatrist the guilt he feels. >> i'm scared. >> feelings are scarey. and sometimes they are painful. and if you can't feel pain, then you are not going to feel anything else either. >> pain is part of the deal. it is part of the picture. and you can't shy away from it,

it is real. live with it, be with it. also there is another side to it. be with that too. and then if you try to deny pain and deny darkness, then you are going down a one-way street. >> part of it is your nonacting life and that is about the climate and the environment and you are dedicated to that. you have been to the united nations and tried very hard to move the world along on this particularly your own country where the current government denies the seriousness of climate change. what do you do in your personal and public life to move this along. >> you have to look where it started. i grew up in los angeles. and it was a wonderful city to me, and once the war ended and

money came back into the picture, things changed and suddenly there was development out of control and green spaces that were suddenly wiped out by buildings and so farther. and where santa monica boulevard had the trolley car going down and it was gone and suddenly there was a freeway. in order to progress, they are wiping out something valuable. >> another thing that is a dark cloud is this notion of where is the truth, this notion of what is fake news, because of president trump now a clarion call for despicable people, when they don't like something, accuse the press of peddling fake news. one of the greatest films you ever made "all the president's men," is about investigating and holding accountable and looking

for the truth. what do you think about having done that film? >> i think we are in a similar spot now. the powers that are out there have taken us to the brink. you no longer now what the truth is. how can you talk about what is truthful or not? i think we are right at that brink. and i guess i see it metaphorically, it used to be that two sides would come together, they would cross the aisle so to speak to work together to achieve something that would benefit the public. and now there is no longer an aisle to be crossed, it is a mote. a gigantic chasm between two points of view. and we are the losers and i think that has got to change. >> the whole idea of anonymous is all of a sudden in the spotlight again. i want to play this clip.

this is deep throat talking to you in that basement. >> forget the myths, the truth is, these are not very bright guys and things got out of hand. come in from the cold. supposedly he has a lawyer with $25,000 in a brown paper bag. >> follow the money. >> what do you mean? where? >> i can't tell you that. >> but you could tell me that. >> no, i have to do this my way. you tell me what you know and i will confirm, i'll keep you in the right direction if i can, but that's all. just follow the money. >> so that still applies. >> still applies. >> well, i mean, as far as i'm concerned going back to the scene you just showed, what was

appealing to me was not so much the subject at hand as it was their relationship. i was drawn to the fact that two guys who were very different, one guy was a republican and the other guy was a liberal. one guy was a wasp and the other was a jew. they didn't get along, but they had to work together. the film was about their relationship having to come together to get to the truth. it was about how their journey to get to that point. >> the me too movement this started in your industry, in hollywood, the flood gates it opened, had you any inkling this was dury gur in hollywood, big

producers directors in hollywood were using this power. >> i was very much away of that. in fact that was partly for wanting to start independent film. i felt there was only one category which was major features, and i was part of that. and i realized that the bottom line for major studios, their ambition was to make money. so profit was the intention. i thought well, i understand that, that's part of the deal, but on the other hand there are other stories that are not being told, that are more diversed and more independent minded. why don't we create that category just so it could be added to the main one. it was meant to augment it. >> so that is what you did with

s sundance, you were on the cutting edge on that given how long ago you started it. but in terms of the sexual abuse, harassment, and preying on female costars, were you aware of that? >> i was. i think i took it for granted. it was just part of the deal. i didn't pay much attention to it. i wasn't a part of it obviously, but i considered that's what it is. the only thing i was interested in was creating an alternative. that was my ambition. but yes, i was aware that existed yeah, the casting couch. >> would you, might you have said something if you knew, because some people said, if you knew about it, why didn't you say anything about it. >> because it didn't come close to home. it didn't come to me. it didn't come it my feet. it was just out there.

and i didn't pay a lot -- i accepted that's what it was. i didn't like it. but i didn't see that was my job to do anything about it. it was so pervasive. >> do you think now the moment is important? this historical moment? >> yes, i think it is important. particularly for women. >> for women who age, and age out of great roles and women who don't get paid for equal roles that they pay which is really interesting in the scene that we are going it play between you and sissy spacek. she is sort of talking about life as it rolls right past. >> now it's okay to be selfish because you think about ten years from now where will you be, what will you be doing. now when i close the door, i think this is the last time that

i ever have a chance to do whatever the thing was. >> you know what i do when the door closes. >> what's that? >> i jump out of a window. >> for a man, it is easy, a heart throb, so handsome, and you have all these roles and go on having these roles. sissy spacek, and women of her generation have found it difficult for getting roles. >> if you look at european films and actresses and see films and older actresses having key roles and they do beautifully, and they have aged, i think that is one of the downsides of hollywood is that for at least for for a while, it wouldn't accept aging. everyone had to be eternally

young. and think of the loss of actors, actors that we loss that could have kept acting. >> i wonder if you learned that in europe. at a very young age, you went to europe and you wanted to be an artist. you weren't thinking about acting at that time. what was it like? were you accepted as a young american at that time. >> no. it was just the opposite. i wasn't aware that the suez crisis happened at that time. when i got to paris, i thought i am getting the place i dreamed about. and suddenly i was treated horribly because i was symbolic of what had gone wrong. until slowly i realized it was kind of our fault. we alienated a whole culture and i wasn't aware of it. i wasn't interested or aware of

politics in those days but it made me aware. >> was that the education of robert redford. >> it was the beginning, it was part of it, yeah, it was a shock. and a shock that i needed. i am so glad that i did go to europe and witnessed other cultures and how they thought and saw the world. >> thank you very much. >> thank you. >> my conversations as he was promoting his film thwhich open in american theaters on september 28. his legacy is pioneering american films. our next guest is ken burns, taken on anything from the civil war to the vietnam war and everything in between. and now he turns his sweeping vision and his camera to american health care and to one of the best hospitals in the

world. it is the mayo clinic in minnesota. founded more than 150 years ago when the role of nurses were done by nuns. our walter isaacson chose burns why he chose that subject. >> why the mayo clinic? >> i think we have always looked over the course of 40 years of stuff that is uniquely americans. each of the films hold up a mirror of what we were and tell us about who we are now. i was drawn in, sucked into the mayo formula. and i knew it had to be counter balanced with contemporary stories. if i hadn't done vietnam, i don't think i would have managed this well. the ability to jump ahead to the

present and look at things. we concentrated for several years on this project. when we finished it and stood back and looked at it, we realized we had something that was talking about the current health care crisis without having to get down into the moras of the politics of it. here is a great model of something that worked and rather than get into the he said she said stuff, you could look at say, here is a recipe of something that works. let me show a clip from the new mayo clinic documentary, it is really about value and personality. >> melanoma is one of the most common cancers that could spread even to the fetus. and she was very clear that she didn't want to proceed with

elective termination. >> for her, we used a plaque, it looks like a bottle cap. and you put radioactive seeds within it. and then you sew this on the eye so the gold doesn't allow the radiation to come anywhere else but into the eye. sometimes i deal with people that die. i feel that the only way that i can give them hope is if i know in my heart of hearts i'm trying to push the boundaries. >> what did you learn from doing the mayo clinic, that affects how we should feel about health care today? >> i think they've got the secret and it is not a secret,

they have been practicing for more than a century and being the best hospital in the united states. we should stop and look to see what doctor is an eye doctor, they could learn that she wasn't interested in terminating the pregnancy, take my eye she says. he admits, i know about the eye, not so much about the tummy where the baby is being born. and yet we do know the presence of this cancer can move to the fetus and yet the collaborative nature of mayo, they are nonprofit and they put the patient first. that is not often the fact. and they put the patient first. what do they need and because

these doctors are on salary, there is a collaborative nature itself. doctor pallido agonizes over each lost patient. >> you do that in the vietnam film so well, take it down to the level of the people, the personality, and real people on the ground. one of them, that is a wonderful theme is john mccain. and you became close to john mccain, we just lost him. how do you feel his values are being dishonored in this day and age? >> for all of the service of this country, he is going to do his greatest service in death. the person who reminds us of where we have been and where we could be. and in that space is the possibility for us to literally transcend the current maymyasth

that we are in. this intersection of great science, but also about faith and about hope and the things that the sisters of st. francis in rochester, minnesota. if you took them away, the mayo clinic wouldn't be the mayo clinic. and that is an interesting story. particularly for americans who do not deal with religious aspects of our history, and let's just say american history is only a sequence of presidential administrations punctuated by wars. what the ordinary soldiers are feeling as well as the president and the generals.

>> that's what you did, the civil war documentary, but history in some way shifts and changes. >> yes it does. >> when you look at the civil war, is there some ways you look at that war differently, the monument issue. >> first of all, it is about freedom. and this is what we articulated. and it is a wonderful complex freedom. there are two kinds, a collective freedom which we need, and an individual freedom which i want. they are at odds. the guy who articulated our creed, thomas jefferson wrote, all men are created equal. so i am a third of the way through the sentence, he owned 200 human beings when he read that. never saw the hypocrisy.

and helped symbolically if not literally set in motion the american narrative which would be struggling with race. >> as you know well, we in new orleans took down the statue of robert e. lee, was that right? >> absolutely right. this is part of our complication. these monuments were added in two periods. one is at the beginning of the reimposition of white rule and the advent of the ku klux klan who took and borrowed one battle flag, the battle flag of the army of north virginia. and when the dixie flag worked its way into the state flag with

the exception of mississippi which came in in the late 1880s and the '90s. if you have something which you are taking a symbol of a homegrown, borrowing their heroes, then we don't have an argument here. the united states calls the civil war, the war of the rebellion. lincoln called them rebels and they lost. >> in history, we have all made mistakes and 100 years from now, they are going to think we made whopper mistakes.

how does it make you so optimistic about this country >> one is, meaning, crews and durations the relationships you cared most about it. there is nothing wrong with being long in a period of supposedly short attention span, that tells you there is that hunger out there. the world, you measure us by what we complete. it is about practice. it is about process. it is not about presentation. someone asked duke ellington what his most important composition was, and this is arguably, the greatest composer in american history, certainly the most prolific. and he said, the one i'm working on now. that's exactly right. we are identified with the finished product, we miss the

point of why we go to work. work in and of itself is the liberation. the process of taking a story and making it better continues. i hope all i am saying, and i hope i am not jinxing, is we are making the same film over and over again, asking who are we, who are the strange and complicated people who like to call themselves americans. what do the investigations of the past tell us about where we have been in the past, and where we are. and most importantly, where we are going, our future. >> thank you for being with us. >> and you can watch ken burns documentary on your pbs station tomorrow night. thanks for watching "amanpour & co." on pbs and join us again tomorrow. >> uniworld is a proud sponsor of "amanpour & co."

when bee tollman found a collection of boutique hotels, she had bigger dreams, and those dreams were on the water. a river, specifically. multiple rivers that would one day be home to uniworld river cruises and their floating boutique hotels. today that dream sets sail in europe, asia, india, egypt, and more. bookings available through your travel agent. for more information, visit uniworld.com. >> additional support has been 0provided by rosalind p. walter. bernard and irene schwartz. sue and edgar wachenheim iii. the cheryl and philip milstein family. and by contribution to pbs from viewers like you. thank you.

business report with bill griffeth and sue herera. racing ahead, nike reports double digit profit growth. but expectations were higher. and investors may have wanted more. i have maid clear our trade imbalance is just not acceptable. >> president trump addresses the united nations general assembly saying the u.s. will no longer tolerate abuse on trade. and stocks struggled to hold gains. paying for college. saving balances are at a record. well that's good news for parents relying on financial aid more than ever. the stories and more tonight on nightly business report for tuesday, september 25th. and we do bid you good