well low everyone and welcome to "amanpour & company." here's what's coming up. >> hi. knife-edge drama playing out behind the scenes until the very last minute. in a back room deal. superior court nominee brett kavanaugh has been approved in committee amid a call for an fbi investigation. i speak to the democratic congresswoman carolyn maloney. she was moved to tears during christine blasey ford's testimony. and to legal affairs analyst david kaplan whose new book warms the supreme court has become too power. plus, the oscar-winning actor anthony hopkins, from

hannibal the cannibal to king lear. what's inspired his return to sha shakespeare and how the race for artificial intelligence the reshaping our world. uniworld is a proud sponsor of amanpour & company. when bee tollman founded a collection of boutique hotels, she had bigger dreams and those dreams were on the water. a risk specifically. multiple rivers that would one day be home to uniforworld crui and their floating boutique hotels. today that dream sets sail in area, europe, india, egypt and more. bookings through your travel agent. for more information visit uniworld.com. additional support has been provided by rosalind p. walter, bernard and irene schwartz.

sue and edgar walkenhaim iii and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. from the united states to here across the pond and points beyond, the brett kavanaugh nomination is in sharp focus as he inches a step closer to becomes the next u.s. supreme court justice. for jooudiciary committee voted along strictly partisan lines to approve him but in a dramatic last-minute move, republican senator jeff flake who exited the room earlier along with democratic colleague chris coons said his vote in the full senate would be conditional on an fbi investigation into allegations of sexual assault against kavanaugh. >> i can't make that commitment for the leadership. i can only say that i would be only comfortable moving forward on the floor. i'll move it out of committee but i will only be comfortable

moving on the floor until the fbi has done more investigation than they have already. it may not take them a week. i understand some of these witnesses may not want to discuss anything further, but i think we are -- we owe them due diligence. >> but the chairman of the committee says that amounted to nothing more than, quote, a gentleman and women's agreement. flake's change of heart probably had a lot to do with this remarkable moment earlier in the day which came just minutes after his office said he would vote for brett kavanaugh. he was unable to muster an answer in an extraordinary confrontation. just watch. >> you have children in your family. think about them. i have two children. i cannot imagine that for the next 50 years they will have to have someone in the supreme court who has been accuseed of

violating a young girl. what are you doing, sir? this is the future. >> nobody believes me! i didn't tell anyone and you're telling all women that they don't matter. that they should just stay quiet because if they tell you what happened to them you're going to ignore them. that's what happened to me and that's what you're telling all women in america. >> did that affect what he did later in demanding the fbi investigation? we don't know. but the supreme court is meant to be an impartial apolitical body. after kavanaugh's broadside against democratic members, deputy chairman dianne feinstein questioned whether his kind of justice could indeed be blind. while republicans just wanted to get the vote over with. >> this was not someone who reflected an impartial temperament or the fairness and even handedness one would see in a judge. this wassomeone who was

aggressive and belligerent. i have never seen someone who wants to be elevated to the highest court in our country behave in that manner. >> frankly, we've had enough time on this to chuck a horse and i just have to say let's be fair about this. let's vote, which ever way we want to. and let's move on this. >> there's -- i personally am tired of all the games and all the gamesmanship that's been going on around not just this nominee but others as well. >> well, as we said, they did move on it but there is this caveat for an fbi investigation once it gets to the full floor is with me to discuss this from washington is congresswoman carolyn maloney. she was in the room during christine blasey ford's testimony and at one point broke into tears. joining me from raleigh, north carolina, is david kaplan whose new book is called "the most dangerous branch, inside the supreme court's assault on the

constitution." david kaplan, certainly senator feinstein and a lot of the democrats obviously were completely -- they expressed outrage at what judge kavanaugh said in his testimony yesterday and he, they say, was unprecedentedly political in his self-defense. i'm going play you a little bit of what he said in his denial of all these allegations. >> translator: this whole two-week effort has been a calculated and orchestrated political hit fuelled with apparent pent-up anger about president trump and the 2016 election, here in has been unfairly stoked about my judicial record, revenge on behalf of the clintons, and millions of dollars in money from outside left wing opposition groups. >> david kaplan, in all your study on the supreme court have

you ever heard that kind of partisan rhetoric from any kind of nominee, much less for the supreme court? >> well, perhaps clarence thomas almost 30 years ago when the senate judiciary committee had to investigate charges made by anita hill against then-nominee thomas. be but i think judge kavanaugh doth protest a little too much. he may have needed to be as belligerent and as political as he was yesterday to win over the most important watcher of the day, which was the president. he needed the president's support and the president tweeted thereafter and i think kavanaugh did himself good with some republican senators who wanted to see kavanaugh come out swinging but that is not judicial temperament, that is not what it looks like and i think he did himself at that end a lot of harm. we tend to forget that stuff. clarence thomas has been a functioning member of the court for a quarter century, it hasn't done him a lot of institutional

damage within the court itself but the court does take a hit and i think kavanaugh, at least short term takes a hit. but if the name of the game is getting confirmed, kavanaugh was in a much better position after his testimony than beforehand. >> congresswoman maloney, do you think that? do you think he's in a better position after his testimony? yes there was a relief from his side of the aisle but after today do you think that he can count on being confirmed? >> i don't think he can count on anything until the votes are over and the votes are counted. it was the most partisan statement i have ever heard from any nominee to any court. he sounded more like he was on the campaign trail as a politician trying to get elected than someone who is being moved to the highest court of our country is going to be confronting some of the most important decisions that affect the lives and rights of millions

of americans. i was astonished by his demeanor, it was certainly not the demeanor of a court or that you would ever -- you think they're going to balanced or you hope and look at the issues, it was sort of like -- it was incredibly incredibly partisan and i thought incredibly inappropriate and one of the reasons why you're seeing such a deep feeling across the country and during this confirmation process. the feelings are deep, they are strong and they are deeply divided and it is not good for the country. >> it's not just deeply divided, it's really something very, very profound about women's rights and about the women's rights not just to be heard but also not to be ignored as the senator said and i think that one of the issues certainly for women is that this particular justice might vote with a block that could overturn very, very

important women's rights so it's clear why women are very, very concerned about this. but that's why i want to ask david kaplan again. you seem to say if he got on to the supreme court like clarence thomas he may be -- this may not have any effect on his judicial thinking and processes, but talk a little bit about how this justice is very different than gorsuch, for instance. gorsuch took over from like-minded scalia. but kavanaugh would take over from what's been considered a swing voigt ate and that's anth kennedy. isn't it consequential who sits on the court and whether his temperament and non-partisanship can be vouched for, david kaplan? >> i don't think anybody has any doubt that brett kavanaugh is a conservative. he's been a part of the conservative political movement for several decades. he worked in the bush white house. he often was in effect a hatchet man within the party. don't mistake him for someone

who's lived in the ivory tower his whole life and assuming he takes justice kennedy's seat, the court is going to shift right. those predictions are correct. are chief justice roberts, a conservative as well, will pass for the middle of the court. he'll become the swing justice but kavanaugh will move the court to the right. i'm not so sure he will explicitly vote to overturn roe v. wade but he will surely look to cut back on federal power. agencies like the epa. cut back on the clean water act. clean air act. the power of the securities and exchange commission. regulation of the workplace. that's really the holy grail for many conservatives. it's not social issues so much like abortion. now, i think -- i don't think roe v. wade will find a friend in brett kavanaugh to be sure but they didn't really have one in anthony kennedy except for a couple of decisions a few years ago and then back in 1992 when

squlus k justice kennedy voted to uphold roe v. wade but i don't think kavanaugh will necessarily vote to explicitly vote to overturn roe. will his temperament matter? i'm not sure. justice thomas is still angry over his hearings and i report in the book 30 years later he's enraged over it. but he was a conservative when he went on the court and did he turn fourth the right as a result of his hearings? i don't think so. i think kavanaugh's judicial views, his ideology, is pretty much set in stone now. >> we don't know who he is because he hasn't put his papers out like kagan did. 99% of her papers were put on the internet for the public to read. very few of kavanaugh's have been put forward. fbi investigations used to be pro forma but for the

allegations against him they have not been investigated and all these allegations coming in from women that -- and they're not being listened to. they're not being looked at, they're in the being investigated. i thought dr. ford's testimony was incredibly moving, especially when she talked about why she couldn't understand why she needed two doors in her house. she and her husband had to go to someone to help her think it through and it came back to brett kavanaugh and feeling that she was going to be killed by him and running out of the door and needing another door to run into. so i think that a lot of women have had these types of experiences and no one has listened to them and when they do talk they are rewarded like she is, what does she gain from that? he she's had death threats, her family has had to move twice because of the death threats on her. most women never work again. anita hill never had another job in government again. women who come forward and speak

out are often -- live through it again. they feel like they've been raped again in how they're being treated and i feel that this next election and how they have treated these allegations you are going to see a fury. you're not going to see the year of the woman, you're going to see the decade of a woman reacting to how serious allegations about her life, about her body. she came forward, shechted to be anonymous. she didn't want to come out in the public. she didn't want to be attacked like she's being attacked. kavanaugh talks about how he's been attacked. she's been attacked far more deeply and seriously than he has. he has to gain a seat on the supreme court. all she's gaining is attacks in this situation. >> so now we have this specter of some kind of fbi investigation, we don't know how long, we don't know how many witnesses, we don't know how

this next chapter of the drama is going to play out. but i want to play for you something of a highlight of yesterday's hearing which was precisely on this issue and senator durbin asked judge kavanaugh about whether he would submit or whether he -- what he would think of an fbi investigation and here's how that exchange went. >> judge kavanaugh, will you support an fbi investigation right now? >> i will do whatever the committee wants to -- >> personally. do you think that's the best thing for us to do. you won't answer? >> look, senator, i said i wanted a hearing and i said i was welcome, i'm innocent, this thing was held when it could have been presented in the ordinariway. it could have been handled

confidentially at first which was what dr. ford's wishes were and wouldn't have destroyed my family like this effort has. >> so, what, eager for an fbi investigation? >> absolutely not. >> no. >> he's fought it. >> i mean, his answer was terrible. if you really -- i understand why he and the republican senators think that any delay just allows public opinion and perhaps the opinion of republicans on the fence to possibly move to opposition. but i think if you want to maintain as kavanaugh does that he's totally innocent it's pretty hard not to just simply answer the question about the fbfbfb sure, bring it on. the republicans aren't going to necessarily follow his request,

either. instead of that long-winding rambling evasive answer. i might have counsel it had nominee to simply say yes.ed th nominee to simply say yes. >> i want to play for you dueling testimony from either side of the isle on this issue of investigation. first from lindsey graham who spoke about kavanaugh's testimony yesterday and then from cory booker who talked about who could be brought to be investigated. some of the democratic senators say some of christine blasey ford's allegations can be corroborated and all of them can be investigated so let's listen to these two soundbites. >> i've been doing this legal stuff most of my life. i've never heard a more compelling defense of one's honor and integrity than i did from brett kavanaugh. he looked nerve the eye and he was mad and he should have been

mad. all i can say about ms. ford, i feel sorry for her and i do believe something happened to her and i don't know when and where but i don't believe it was brett kavanaugh and as a prosecutor have you couldn't get out of the batter's box because in america before you can accuse somebody of a crime you have to tell him when it happens and where it happened and you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt it did happen. >> mr. chairman, lynn brooks, who said she did not want to come forward, another friend from yale and showing this is not partisan, she is a republican, mr. chairman, she did want to come forward but last night after listening to his testimony was so offended by his lies that this is what his friend from yale, a registered republican said. there is no doubt in my mind that while at yale he was a big partier. often drank to excess and there has to be a number of night he

is does not remember. in fact, i was witness to the night he got tapped into his fraternity and was stumbling drunk and he was in a ridiculous saying really dumb things and i can almost guarantee that there is no way he remembers that night. >> so congresswoman, you know the politics, you're right there n there on a daily basis on the house. but are they going to be forced to -- i don't know what the process is, not just to suboena them, to talk to them, what if some of these people don't want to come forward? >> they can subpoena them. and what is -- this is such an important appointment that has -- in some ways it's the most powerful appointment in our country and can change the direction on rights and direction of our country. >> it's incredibly important and

people who have no idea who brett kavanaugh is. he says he's the choir boy and you have numerous women who said he's a predator. that he's a person who sexually assaulted them. he may not remember but dr. ford remembers clearly, she remembered him putting his hand over her mouth and she was afraid she was going to be inadvertently killed so she remembers and she has cited three or four other people that know him, know her and where from there that night. at the least we should talk to them. if the other three women that have come forward are credible you should investigate that, too. this is a character, this is incredibly important and this should be answered before you put someone on the supreme court. >> i think it is -- sorry, that's what next week is -- >> if i could just -- >> we're running slightly out of time but i need to ask you david

kaplan about the nature of the supreme court as well. what the congresswoman is saying is obviously important. there needs to be an investigation of these kinds of allegations for both sides and for there to be credibility going forward and particularly at this -- >> i completely endorse the idea of an investigation and frankly further hearings. if you learned anything yesterday, even though the crux of dr. ford's allegations were already out there, by seeing her testify, by observing her demean demeanor, seeing how she held up in a way a mere fbi investigation can't do. i'd like to pick up on something that the congresswoman said. she said that this appointment might be the most important for the country for the next generation and what i nicaragua my book is that that agreement from both liberals and

conservatives is a problem. why do we accept that the supreme court and a single vote on the supreme court ought to be determining key social and political policy for a generation, whether it's on abortion or gun control or campaign finance regulation. why do we all in an unquestioning way a allow nine unelected unaccountable judges to determine what goes nona democracy? >> what's the alternative? >> well, you want the court to vindicate the rights under the first amendment, free expression, the rights under the fourth amendment considering unreasonable search and seizure. the alternative is to have true judicial restraint. it's to have the kind of court we used to have 60, 80, 100 years ago where the court had the courage to say that's an important issue but it's not for judges to resolve. you need to go across the street, go back to congress and state legislatures and fight it out in democracy.

if you don't like democracy, if you don't like the folks in congress, if you don't like who your president is or your state legislators are, vote them out of office and pick those who will pass the right bills, choose the right policies. the fact that we don't like what goes on in legislatures and in congress now is no excuse to then head to the courts to achieve our victories there and i think one of the consequences of the court's transcendent power for 50 years is confirmation circuits like this. it also leads to the distortion of presidential elections like in 2016 and it ultimately is bad for the court itself. >> it's certainly clear from many, many outsiders point of view that the court has become political and this as the world looks to america for the ultimate in impartial justice. let me just say to you both thank you very much, david kaplan and congresswoman maloney. this will continue for the next

week at the very least. with. if there ever was a shakespeare play for these turbulent political times it's "king lear," the demise of a demanding king, the back stabbing power merchants who surround him, the chaos of war. the masterpiece is always timely and the latest actor taking on this demanding character is sir anthony hopkins. 30 years since he trod the boards as lear on stage, he's bringing him to amazon prime where he embodies the aging king dividing his kingdom between his daughters. >> we have divided in three our kingdom, it's our past intent to shake all cares and business from our age, conferring them on younger strengths while we unburdened crawl toward death. >> hopkins is an actor beloved

and feared for his work, whether in his oscar-winning role as hannibal lecter in "the silence of the lambs" or the butler in "remains of the day." king lear is out today and we spoke about his remarkable life and career and what drew him top this part finally. anthony hopkins, welcome to the program. we are all so familiar with your massive body of work and it just strikes me as a really interesting question to you ask you that you didn't really want to be an actor. you said music and art were your first love and you stumbled into acting by mistake. how so? >> i wanted to be a musician. i wanted to be a pianist and a composer. i played the piano ever since i was a kid, six years of age and when i was 17 i was in school, not qualified to do anything, hopeless at everything academically and no sports, nothing like that, so i didn't know what i was going to do and there was a scholarship for for

cardiff college of music and drama so i thought well maybe i'll go and try a scholarship as an actor and see if i can sneak into the music department. anyway, i never acted before in my life and i did a piece from othello and i did the audition, i didn't know what i was doing but i did the audition "full of sound and fury" and they gave me scholarship, much to my surprise. but that's how i start are working for a living. >> let me ask you something because it's interesting to hear that 50 years ago you got your big stage break by playing sir lawrence/li oe live wilivier's and he fell ill, couldn't play and you stepped into the role. i wonder what you think about that serendipity and what he then said, the great man himself, himself

olivier wrote a new young actor was understudying me and walked away with the part of edgar like a cat with a mouse between his teeth. that's amazing. what did you think when you got that validation? >> i was an ambitious young kid. i wanted to do everything and be everywhere and i was scared sti stiff. i was iing olivier. he admired strong men. i was physically very strong and tough. he said you have to be strong and fit. so he gave me an understudy part and he'd never been ill in his life and he had cancer. in those days they had radium treatment and i was told, i was phoned saying you're on stage tonight. i thought they were joke iing.

i went into into the theater for rehearsal, i learned my entire part, i went into the rehearsal, robert stevens and geraldine mckeown and olivier's costume and uniform fitted me. they started and i got a huge round of applause at the end of it and i was told i was very good. i was far too young. but olivier had come out of hospit hospital. he was dressed up with his overcoat and he stood at the back of the theater to watch me. he phoned me and said how do you feel. i said i was scared. he have said i bet you were, you did very well dear boy. he said any problems? i said well i went with through about three shirts i was so wet with perspiration and sweat. he said well, that's tension. i said how long will it take to get rid of that? he said about 25 years.

>> that's a great story and particularly that he got out of his sick bed and came to watch you. it's an amazing story. you mentioned one of your first roles was othello and then you took on a whole ream of shakespearean roles but you sort of mid-macbeth walked out and decided you didn't want to do that any for 19373. what was going on in youreer, in your life, in your relationship with shakespeare at that time? >> i was a bad boy. i was trouble. i was rebellious, restless, and i didn't fit in and i think it was nothing to do with the feeling inferior but i just didn't feel i belonged anywhere. and i still have that feeling to this day. i never fit in quite easily with people in the acting business. i love working with actors but i always feel slightly a bit of the outsider and i think that's

been my driving force i suppose if you want to call it that. and i couldn't -- i wasn't a very good team player and things went wrong during that production and one day i said that's it. and there was a famous director john directioner who was a bit of a monster but he was a great director but he was a bully and one day i said that's it. i phoned my agent, i said i'm not going in anymore. he said you'll never work again and i said i don't care. that was my attitude. i didn't care. i look back over the years and i think if i hadn't made that decision it was probably the wrong decision but i was motivated by restlessness and anger and arrogance but i wouldn't be here today if i hadn't done that. >> it's interesting the way you describe all your own sort of feelings and the way you are.

i want to play just for a moment, and i know i'm leapfrog ago lot, but so many people know you for so many things but the younger generation for hannibal lecter and i want to play how kind of awful a psychotic you are in this performance and what an amazing impact it's had. we're going play a clip for a moment. >> agent starling, you think you can dissect me with this blunt little tool? >> no. i thought that your knowledge -- >> you're so ambitious, aren't you? you know what you look like to me with your good bag and your cheap shoes? you look like a rube. a well-scrubbed hustling rube with a little taste. good nutrition has given you some length of bone but you're not more than one generation from poor white trash, are you, agent starling, and that accent you tried so desperately to shed, pure west virginia.

your father, was he a coal miner? does he stink of the lamp? you know who how quickly the boys found you, all those tedious sticky fumblings in the backseats of cars while you could only dream of getting out, getting anywhere, getting all the way to the end. >> i mean, it's chilling even today as we watch it. i wonder what your reaction to that is. you got an oscar for playing that role and i wonder how your acting life changed after that role. >> my agent phoned one afternoon when i was in the theater and there was a long run, i was getting tired and bored wanting to break out. my agent sent me a script. he said i want you to read this script called "silence of the lambs" and i thought it was a -- i said it is a children's story. he said no it's with jodie foster and you played the part

of hannibal lecter. the script came, i read part of it, i phoned this up i said is this an offer or not? he said it's not an offer, they're very interested. i said i don't want to read anymore, this is one of the best parts i've ever read. and he said jonathan demme the director is coming to see you later tonight. i knew how to play it. i don't know why but i know how to play these parts. it's a strange feel bug it's in my muscles and my nature. i guess i'm an actor by freaky chance.ing but it's in my muscles and my nature. i guess i'm an actor by freaky chance. i'm not an intellectual, i'm not an educated person but i have this instinct for it and the sudden toughness and rawness in my nature. >> you've described your toughness and not being a gentle actor and you did say to the tv movie critic barry norman, the british critic after playing lecter, nixon, hitler, all of

those dark roles you said it's a certainty within them that's attractive. the unblinked look into the darkness. i think i understand that for some reason. it's a pretty big admission, that. >> yes, and i can't quite understand anything about what i meant by that. i still don't get it. but i've always had that instinct ever since i was a kid of the certainty of that life is tough and hard and i came from -- my father was a hardworking man, so was my grandfather but there was a certain toughness about them. they didn't mince words, they weren't very touchy feely and i think that's what i did. it's beyond ego. it was just an instinct that forced me to look at life as it is. for example, in the lear, can i jump to that for a moment? >> you can, but i want to play a -- i want to ask you about that because i'm going play a clip so you mention lear and all

the way back in your career to shakespeare and of course it's been played by many, many greats, you old buddy sir ian mckellen is doing in the the west end in britain. glenda jackson, the other great british actress is about to take on king lear on broadway and now you're taking the film version. before i play a clip, i want to know what it is about lear that even fascinates you. >> i played it 30 years ago and the production was a very good production andi played lear but i was too young, i was 47. i hammed it up and i didn't know what i was doing but i was afraid of it. i wasn't -- it was okay but i knew i missed it because now i'm in my 81st year. now i understand the muscle of the man, the power of the man and about old age and loneliness and death and i've always had that sense in my nature about

death and my favorite poems are about not death but about the certainty of life, about the certainty of mortality and like lear said, i have seen the moment of my greatness flicker and i've seen the eternal footman hold my coat and snicker. and i wanted to play lear without the fanfare of bowing and scraping and trumpets, just as an old warrior who is impatient with everyone and has no time for nonsense. he only loves one creature and that's his daughter cordelia who i believe in childbirth my wife, who was killed in childbirth, gave birth to her so i treated her like a boy, gave her a sword and bow and arrow and fought with her so she was like a boy to me. the other two girls i didn't have any time for them. and this is in my nature as well. i'm not a very touchy feely

person. i don't have any friends much to speak of. this is my -- i don't want to talk about my personal life but my wife says do you just enjoy solitude? and i said yes, i do. >> i want to play this clip from the film you're in and it's a more modernistic unusual adaptation of lear and this is the scene you've just talked about cordelia and how you treated her like a boy. in this scene you're kind of disowning her. let's play it. >> i'm not all pleased. >> what stage of a lady would you other. would yourself propose and i will make cordelia duchess. >> nothing, i have sworn, i'm firm.

>> i'm sorry, you have so lost the father but you must lose a husband. >> peace be with begurn di. i shall not be his wife. >> cordelia, thee and thy virtues, here i seize upon. >> let it be thine. we have no such daughter nor shall ever see the face of hers again. death will be gone without her gra grace.recently. i was in rome and i saw -- i was

moved not by my own performance, but i was moved by the nature of that scene because it's very welsh. it's very parent of my own life and i -- it sounds weird to say that because i don't know quite what i mean but there's something i know about this, something in my nature i know. if maybe through experience of my parents, my father, my grandfather. a darkness. the term -- i don't want to make it mysterious but there is something there that moves me about the finality of love, about the fatal di of betrayal and finally they are no long the days of wine and roses, off we go into the darkness. >> do you now or when did you feel that acting was not a mistake? >> oh just recently. recently. i was thinking my goodness, i've had a long life.

i've had an amazing life. i've had a great life. i've worked with some extraordinary people and i am what i am today and i look out of my window and i think how on earth did i get here? and i can't really account for any of it. it was all chance. i was give son man so many brea i've made many mistakes and i've managed to pull myself up by the bootstraps and go on with it so it's the only thing i can do. >> i have other hobbies, i flay piano and come mose music but this is the one thing that i love and relish and i hope i go on doing a few more things like that. but it's been the best life. i will say one last thing, the happiest time of my life is now because i got rid of receive consciousness. free of self-consciousness. being free to not -- to realize that i'm not that important. none of us are hot that hot.

we are here for a limited time. when we think we are important think again because we are not. there's no escape. sounds like gallows humor but i like that. >>ology that ga-- on that gallo mortar note, it's been a pleasure to spooeak with you. sir anthony hopkins, thank you very much. >> thank you very much. >> and an important reflection by sir anthony hopkins on self-importance. it strikes a cord at a time when our roles in society are being transformed by technology, here comes artificial intelligence at breakneck speed replacing jobs and changing economies in the race to achieve innovation. ai expert dr. kai-fu lee says that if data is the new oil then china is the new saudi arabia. he's worked in the united states

and china with a resume including google, apple and microsoft, his new book ai superpowers, china, sin kohl valley and the new world order connects the dots on decades of development and he tells harry sreenivasan that ai is at the heart a story about what makes us human. >> you worked in artificial intelligence for a long time. you talked about a nirks different phases. you've got the internet phase in business, you call it the eyes and ears and the hands and feet. explain that evolution. >> sure, today we're surrounded by internet ai. that is ai being used within the amazon, google, facebook. this is how they've become so valuable because they take the data we provide and our actions and use that to maximize their revenue. or user benefit.

so banks, insurances, hospitals so on will have data in their domains and they can use it to make better decisions about credit card law, about allegation and so on but these are phase one, phase two, both based on existing or big data being generated. the third phase is when the ai has eyes and ears and they can see and here so amazon go, amazon echo are examples of that but that will be everywhere as devices become cheaper and sensors are embedded everywhere. along the internet of things adding to this network, capturing the physical world and doing things that couldn't be done before such as autonomous without any human involvement. then the fourth phase is the autonomous ai phase where the

hands and feet are added, for example. ai can decide on making loans to people what kind of insurance pol policies. ai can be added with robotics and builds self-driving autonomous vehicles or machines that can manufacture future products without human involvement or even autonomous agriculture, picking up fruits and vegetables and strawberries so taking all the routine jobs we have. >> you rattled off four different industries. the loan officers, the drivers, the pickers of the crops. these are -- i mean, you're talking about a seismic shift here. you're talking about billions of unemployed people if all of these jobs go away. >> yes. and the good news is that this will generate amazing efficiency and the phenomenal amount of

wealth that will help move us forward. and the question is what happens to those unemployed people. how does the redistribution of wealth and the retraining for the new jobs or early retirement or the shift to volunteerism can transition the work style so people can continue productively and happily. >> how did our education system change to prepare for this? >> the education system has to stop guiding people towards the jobs that have no future. so even vocational schools has to think are we going to have as many mechanics or truck drivers? we're not. but we might still have a large number of plumbers because ai can't handle the variations of environments. and we're going to need more elderly care, more nursing, more teachers. so the entire job mix will change and education should

change along with it. >> in the book you lay out almost a four quadrant matrix of the types of jobs that will be most likely to be replaced or are being replaced and the types that are least replaceable. explain. so if we look at this defensively, what are the things ai cannot do? that's where we should put our energies. ai cannot be creative. and ai cannot be compassionate. those are the two biggest core pillarin pillars. so there's the four quadrants that would correspond to four b. tools to help us do better in those jobs. for the jobs that are highly yes yaitive but doesn't require human interaction or compassion then humans will continue to create. with ai becoming tools to help them be more creative.

scientists might create more jobs. for the jobs that are interactive with human component, compassion, empathy but not that creative, those are the kinds of jobs where ai analytical engines will become dominant but humans will really wrap their warmth and connectivity around it. for example, doctors, teachers. they'll make the professions more effective and leverage the ai tools and be able to reach out to more people that way. >> so how does a doctor's job change in 20 years, with let's say, an ai assistant? >> i think the doctor -- yes, i think the doctor's job will change into that of interacting with the patient, understanding the patient's history, teasing out all of the necessary ingredients to make a good diagnos diagnosis, make the patients

feel listened to and rely on a toirks make the possible diagnosis and the doctor can override in the begin bug overtime the ai will be so much better doctor is going to be mainly the human communication tool to offer warm compassion, care, confidence. and that outcome means the type of health care can be provided at a much lower cost. >> your book is call ai superpowers and there's concern on the balance between who has the lead and where is the edge and do they overtake each other and whose advantage? you start out by saying china isn't in the lead but we're accelerating and catching up at an incredibly fast pace. >> right. u.s. led all the technology research and it's openly published and shared so china, like every other country, has an opportunity to take those

algorithms and implement them. china's advantage is that china has a lot of entrepreneurs and a lot of capital to fund them and they work extremely hard and they're tenacious in finding every business opportunity in phases one, two, three, and four of ai. and -- but most importantly china has more data than everyone else because all this ai is learning based on data and china has more users and more data per user so the companies beings built in china has an inherent advantage of having more data and training better a zblirks is given there's so much data generated on your shopping habits in china, where does privacy come into the mix? >> there are clear laws that

would forbid companies from sharing data so the facebook/cambridge analytica case would have been more seriously prosecuted and more people would be put into jail for illegally sharing private data hour the collection by a company of where you went on your shared bicycle or what you bought on your mobile phone is not so different from what visa and google and open table have about the american consumers. it's just that the speed of adoption is faster. i think ultimately every country has to figure out how to balance privacy, personal safety, swrooens. these things can't all be perfectly had. >> are you concerned about the size of companies getting too big and leaving people out. whether it's google or facebook on amazon here or ten cent or alibaba in china? >> yes, i am. i think there is a virtue wouou

cycle for them because more data builds better products, makes more money than more machines, even more data. that virtuous cycle makes monopolies harder to break. traditionally monopolies were there are because of exclusive access to resources. user loyalty or technology edge or high hurdle of entry but now the ai can act as virtuous cycle so we have to act. i think there's plenty of room for innovation and entrepreneurship in areas that they're not in. >> the picture used to be two guys in a garage coming up with a better mouse trap. can two young women in a dorm room build something that challenges alibaba? >> i don't think so. i think they can invent a brand

new application and that will over time come into competition and challenge. sort of like how fab -- facebook became a threat to google. how in china baidu was the big company and then ten cent and alibaba emerged so i think the new companies can challenge old ones but probably and generally not indirectly going into a market in which a nearly monopolistic position is already there. >> i want to ask you this question kind of as both somebody who understands both of these cultures growing up in ing chinese and also as an , investor. the last six months to a year have been a low point in the relationship between the united states and china. we're engaged in a trade war. how do you see this playing out?

>> i think the u.s. and china have such mutual dependencies in technology that continued trade war would be a loose move and i also -- it's a very sad one for me because i think there's huge affinity by the chinese people for america as china opened up it looked to the market economy in the u.s. it looked to bill gates so if you look historically, there's the american flying tigers in world war ii, there's american donating xinhua university, the best university in china so that good will seems to be melting away and that would be such a pi pity, all of us, my colleagues who have benefited from the great american education so there's every reason for u.s. and china to work together because of the already

intermingled technology situation and such strong affinity coming from china towards the u.s. and whatever the governments want to argue and fight over i hope the american people understand there are 1.3 billion people who love to be america's friend. >> you said it took a horrible stage four cancer diagnosis for you to learn to slow down and you're evangelizing in a way for other companies in china to create a different kind of work culture. >> i am trying to do that. i don't expect to be completely successful. i think the forces of the generations of poverty and hunger for success is too insurmountable but i do see in my personal case i was working as hard as the entrepreneurs my company funded and only when i

got sick did i realize that all the money and fame cannot buy back my health or the love of my family so i came to realization by facing death and i wanted to share that experience with the people -- those people who were listening. >> the book is called "ai superpowers, china, silicon valley and the new world order. thank you for joining us. >> thank you, harry. >> what an interesting experience he has in his personal life and in his professional endeavors. the former president of google china aai-fu-lee. thanks for watching amanpour and company on pbs and join us again next time. uniworld is a proud sponsor of amanpour & company.

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congre adam schiff joins us to discuss the supreme court nomina news from capito califo voters will be choosi a new governor. we will talk to gavin newsom about had his mission. the journalism start up is aiming to hold big tech compan accountable. hello and welcome to kqed newsro newsro we begin with the bitter fight over the u.s. supreme court. today the senate judiciary commit voted along party lines to advance brett kavana nomination to the full senate floor. althou republican arizona senato jeff flake voted yes, he called for the fbi