robert: individual oneid prt trump emerges as a subject of interest in themu eller probe. i'm robert costa, welcome to "washington week." president trump: he's a weak person. and what he's trying to do is a ge reduced sentence. so he's lying about a project that everybody kne about. robert president trump battles his former attorneyse in def his business with russians during his 2016 campaign. president trump: we were thinking about building a building. i decided not to do it. there would haveng been not wrong if i did do it. robert: but those talks are under intense scrutiny as cohen admits he lied to congress and th president continues his

political war with robert mueller after the special council withdrew a plea deal with paul manafort. all this while the president is abroad in argentina along with russian president vladimir putin. the latest roberting next. announcer: this is "washington week." funding is provided by -- >> kevin. >> kevin. >> kevin. >> advice for life. life welled plann learn more at raymondjames.com. announcer: funding is provided by, newman's own foundation donating all profits to charity and nourishing the common good. and patricia ewing, committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities.

the epics in excellence in journalism foundation. the corporation for public oadcasting, and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank yo once again from washington, moderator robert costa. robert: good evening. the russia probe that has lon gripped the trump presidency was olted this week by michael coe went. the president's former lawyer who admitted he liedon toess about what was called the moscow project. cohen had testified that talks about buiing a trump tower in ruizia had fzled by early 2016. but in aan manhatt courtroom on thursday, cohen said the discussions about the project w actuallyt into the summer of 2016, deep into the presidential campaign. this development raises new questions. did p thesident's business pursuits with russia shape his

campaign or his message. and whatt does i reveal about special council robert mueller's investigation. joining me tonight to discuss all of this are three seasoned reporters on this fast moving beat. michael schmidt, a two-time pulitzer surprise winner and with the new york times. and rozlyn helderman investigations reporter for "the shington post" who won a pulitzer prize this year. michael, you've been reporting on mueller for so long. there are soany pieces to this puzzle. what is this piece? e development this week, his corporation. tell us about where bob mueller is going with this entirein stigation. michael: it shows that he continues to go deeper and deeper inside that inner circle of the president and really trying to figure out what was going on during the campaign.

but i think more importantly, he's continuing to tell the story of the different pieces of the pie of what was going on in the summer of 2016. the russians were reaching a time-out t meet with his -- reaching out to try to mee with his son. they were trying to undermine our democracy. and the were also trying to do business with the president and trying to lay out for the average person in this country through these documents the history and the story of this t give us a greater understanding of it. robert: the president's defending his conduse, all t different conversations. he began the day with a series of tweet mocking the mueller probe and defending his pursuit of the business in moscow. he said i continue to run my business very cool. but mostrats have sounded the alarm iouncluding intelligence committee ranking member adam schiff of california. >> it means that when the president was representing

during the empaign that h had no business interests in russia, that that wasn't true. robert: i just want to follow up on something you said. it rasestuestions on w president trump was doing during the 2016 campaign, about the line. he just submitted questions written answers to robert mueller. is there a perjury question for president trump and his legal team? >> as soon as we saw the plea deal with cohen, the thought that we said was what's in 2 - the answers because we knew that mueller wanted to ask him about this deal. he wanted t know who he spoke to. if you're trying to understand the criminal exposure that the president has, you have to find out what that answer was. so we went, we pushed on the president's lawyers to get that. and what they say is that wha the president put in those answers lines up with what cohen said and that he's fine there. now in a trumpian twist, the president came out from the white house after cohen pled and said he was lying that day. he called him a liar.

and said he was lying to reduce his sentence. well, if cohen is lying, then what -- it doesn'tine up with what the president was saying in las answers. sort of cic trump there. robert: maybe mueller comes back with more questions for the president about all this at some point. >> i findt very hard to believe that bob mueller will be simply satisfitt with wri responses from donald trump on a small sliver of the investigation. robert: roz, great to have you here at the table. you've been following cohen for so long. you know h valuable he really is to robert mueller's investigation. what does your reporting tell you about that question. >> w well,e know it was revealed yesterday that he sat down with bob mueller team i believe seven separate times just in the last few months. so there a lot of information. i mean, this is a guy who was really donald rump's sort of right hand man within the trump organization. had a lot of involvement with all the dirtiest secrets of the

trump organization. obviously we've seen involved deeply with the payments to women prior to thelection to silence them. but also just a lot of donald trump'sverseas international business expansion. so he's a guy with a weal of knowledge. the problem is, he's also a guy like so many people in tdmp woho has a tendency to exaggerate and to lie. and so you can be sure that bob mueller is gathering every piecr of p he can to try to get corroboration for anything being toldha by m coe went. robert: does this tell us that mueller sees cohen as pretty credible? >> it seemsike he has important information to share and certainly that he has a lot additional evidence to back up anything heants to use. robert: you've lived in moscow. you've written a book about vladimir putin. the timing here really matters. it comes just as russia is mounting its interference

campaign in 2016. thmp candidate t engaging with russians at the same time. at does itell us about russia and putin that they were doing both of the things simultaneously. that's -- >> that' the question that immediately occurred to me. when you look at what cohen was testifying to and was included in this agreement that mueller brought t court the oth day, it includes information that multle times that michael coe went interacted with vladimihrs officegh the office of his pokes spokesman -- spokesman who one of putin's closest advisors. he's been with putin since he came president so 18 years. he has been reputeder to be wealthy at the side of vladimir putin. it's not just such random official that they're interacting with. think about thi

weaponizing information they call it ins russia i a trademark of this -- this new russian power elite and the post or yet era. what does it mean? potentially it means that donald trump and his advisor cohen have offered an enormous o amountf information on him to use in the middle of a political campaign. as you pointed out putin's government according to u.s. intelligence was mobilizing to support donald trump in the election using influence methods but separately he's seeking -- he's offering him more information. robert: you hadar thislous profile of adam schiff who will be the new chair of the intelligence committee when house democrats take over in january. what can we expect from them? >> this is the first charge from the mueller case to result from lying to congress. s an what happened is that michael coe went is actually

pleading guilty to having lied toapitol hill when he was called to testify in their earlier investigation. as you know there was a very partisan report that was put out by theub house rcans on the intelligence committee who then shut downti their investi. democrats under congressman schiff have vowedpeo r an investigation. the first thing they want to do is release transcripts of the many interviews that they tthk people. they say there are other people who are likelymi ced perjury and that may now be charged by muelr's investigative tea as a result. for example,f congressman sch named robert stone as one of those who he believed was not hi truthful wit committee. robert: what about the obstruction of justice? you have an acting attorney general matt whitaker. how is he responding to this? are they on edge to try to disrupt mueller? >> we've learned in the past few days that whitaker has not been

very involved in the russia matter. and it h stayed underneath rod rosenstein the deputy attorney general. there hasee not real interest by whitaker in getting involved in the muelleinvestigation. he knows that they are closely looking at him whether he does anything towards ts and whether that is part of a continued obstruction. the problem is is that the president put him there because he felt comfortable with him he knew what he had saidbout the russian investigation. he knew that whitaker had been very skept a -- skeptical. and he built a rapport with him. and thers this st of weird dynamic where the president has there is this ongoing investigation. it's still been run by rones stein. robert: why aren't republicans trying to protect mueller with legs >> that legs looked like it died again this week.it more recently died this week.

u know, to -- for whateve reason, they don't feel the need to do this. i'm not sure why. they seem very attuned to public opinion on this. maybe the republicans really don't care about it. will it take something else of the president doing to get them to do that? i'm not sure. robert: the other, iss an issue brought up this week, is that presidentold us there was no money involved with russia. buthe moscow project wasn't the first attempt by president trump to expand his brand into russia. you wrote "it was a dream born in the 1980's, a t gleamingmp tower in the heart of soviet for donald trump that vision never died even as he lnched a presidential campaign." what explains this effort-long with russia? >> he wanted to do a thing he set out to do and he hasn't succeeded.

you have to look at cohen's activities agast that backdrop. cohen was a guy who wanted to plse the boss. at was sort of his self-image nds being donald trump's man. and so hestood that if he could finally get the trump tower dealn moscow done, he would get in gd with the boss. you this history. trump goes in 1987 --. he goesn 1986. in 2005 he signed a deal with the campaign to try to build. he's back in 2013. he's trying again and. aga and you see the trump organization putting its name os buildin various other countries of the world. ussia was a place he wanted to be. it was a place where his brand -- russians liked hiserrand. they buying all over the world in his buildings. and he wanted auildinghere. robert: what does this mean inner the president as he's tching from argentina? u.s. relations with our own

allies? > it's been and i credibly divisive issues among money from thenited states to the allies. when he came into officetae ed about lifting sanctions on russia. those have stayed in place because russia has made it clean that eve a republican-controlled congress would have acted very decisively ifne movedhe direction he wanted to. enormous outcry even from wh republican he had that meeting in helsinki with vladimir putin. flash forward to the g-20. he looked forward to meeting with putin. n and hisional security advisor said in the lead up to buenos arires w simply to continue their discussions fro helsinki. now he said, i canceled it toward russian aggression over the last weekend.

bert: it's not just about russian hostility and the ukraine. >> it's an excellenviquestion. sly we don't know the real story here. but it's fair to sayt te united states was very sluggish ving the sponse inv kirk strait and the ukrainian naval ship that were a board seized by russia. other countries, nato, the e.u. issued statements far stronger an those of the u.s. government. president trump seemed to say, well, there's a problem on both des. he came out and said i don't like this aggression. i don't like it at all. it was much after the fact. and it didn't seem to be an issue that motivated to cancel a meeting with putin days later. when he got on the plane to go to buenos aires he said he was going to have the meeting one hour later. canceled. robert: you would seeis

children there in the trump working n jr., ivanka, with him on business and on the campaign. you read about cohen, his work with mueller, does the family have exposure here gally and politically? >> i think in the president's mind, they do. and that i probably the most important thing. we don't know what mueller has. we don't know what he's doing. certainly the president, you, kne has these different red lines that he's made up. i think a true real one is the family. hd they do think that there's something afoote and that they are looking at don jr. that's what the president thinks. and that has guided some of his anger, you know, in the past month, it has built. that he like the w -- that mueller was treating paul manafort his former campaign chairman. he didn't like the way that thee were trying er into a plea deal with this pern inouch with wikileaks. he didn't like the way that they unsealed the documents. and he thinks something larger

is going on he sees the cohen thing happen right as he's leaving for a meeting. he knew mueller had filed charges before he went to helsinki when he went to g meet with putin. he thinks that -- robert: n.ere is a lot going >> he thinks it's a conspiracy. robert:ehinks it's a conspiracy. it's an investigation.wa ther news that michael coe went is corporating with muler's probe. and that's significant. t so is the fact that paul manafort, his plea deal with mueller collapsed this week. manafort his - his deal falling apart, does that mean he's going to break at some point, roz, and be a cooperative witness like a michael coe went or does this mean he's going to face another tri a more trouble down the road? >> there was a hearing in the c speciancil's office told the judge that they had not decided whether to pursue further charges against him for

his new lies where his crimes and lies. and it does seem like the ship has sailed for him to be a corporating witness. this is not what an attorney wants to reach a deal. i thinkel he's l to come around. we're going to see an important development a week from today when the special council ice office goes into court and details for the judge alof his lies, all of the ways in which -- >> why do they have to detai those things? >> it's part of the way to tell theudge that his plea deal has been breached and he' not deserving of leniency for having assisted. otherwise he would get a break in his sentence. they're going to file this report. they're going to talk about all the things they were asking him about in this time perio where they felt he was not honest and

they're going to have t say why they know he wasn't honest which allows them to lay out some evidence. we're all talking about this issued.hat might be we might see some of the information we might have expected to see in a robertn sort of stagets entered into -- stages entered into court next week. robert: we're going to get a little gleaning. >> we could get a singular report. but before thenre woing to have a lot of new information. >> there's no guarantee, so mueller has to speak when he wants to speak. heay a knows he'll be able to do the things in public. he will not really be able to control whether a report goe's th decision that will be made above him at the justice department the thing to understand about manafort, is there are two people that control the fatef perhaps the rest of his life. he's 69 years old. he's looking at many years in prison. either it was going to be bob mueller who was going to go to

dge and say give this man seniency or it's donald trump who i going to pardon him. there's really no one else who has no important w to impact the rest of his life. robert: is he searching for a pardon, susan, when you look at paul manafort, ylo fd his career, long time political strategist. unlike cohen does he see there's a window to get a pardon from president tmp? >> well, a lot of president have suggested that that seems to be what he' doing for -- here and that it's such an audi shouse plan to challenge someone who is as tough minded by breaching your agreement that you must have in mind that this is your only lifeline, your signal to president trump who made it clear what he thinks about cooperators. he's gone over and over made the point that their rats, not trust worthy, and bad people. it seems to me he needed to restore credibility with makedent trump in order to

his case for a plea. there are potentially over people who could have spoken tom paafort. for example he spent years and millions of dollars. he has enormous relationships with russian oligarches who figure in this trump story. they have information too that could affect paul nafort and president trump. robert: what is his future legally? >> we don't yet know. what we do know is that the special council has spent an enormous amount of time on roger stone piece of his case in recent months. he's brought inntt last c maybe a dozen friends associates of roger stone to be interviewed by presidentors or in front of -- by the prosecutors o in front of the grand jury.

has over and over and over again denied that fact. but there's clearly something about roger stone and what he ew that bob mule ser very, very interested in. robert: final tught, mik the talk about a pardon, president trump his signaling on that trump. is there an obstruction issue at all facing manafort in these kind of conversations? >> i guess it depends on what's really going on. if there was some sort of back manafort's ween lawyers and the president's about giving them information in exange for a pardon to interfere with the investigation highly highly pblematic. if it was simply manafort's lawyers passing infortion back to trump's, you know, just to be a free flow of information, less so. not reaeally but what we know is that the ns have been looked at. >> you reported john dowd once president's former lawyer.

last year having discussions ith manafort and flynn's lawyers. robert: we're going to have leave it there. we're a live show. we're going to connue that on the podcast. we will continue this conversation on the "washington week" podcast. you can find that friday after 10:00 p.m. and also on your favorite podcast app. i promise we'll get there. i'm robert costa. have a great weekend. ud thanks for joini announcer: funding is provided by -- financial services firm raymond james. newman's own foundation, donating all profits from newman's own food products to charity and nourishing the common good, the ethicsn journalism foundation, ku and patricia ewinghrough the ewing

foundation committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities. the corporation for public broadcasting, and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. [captioning performed by che nationalaptioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content itd accuracy.vcicap.org]

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