robert: individual one. president trump emerges as a subject of interest in the mueller probe. i'm robert costa, welcome to "washington week." president trump: he's a weak person. and what he's trying to do is get a reduced sentence. so he's lying about a project that everybo knew about. robert: president tru battles his former attorney in defense his business with russians during his 2016pa camn. president trump: we were thinking about building a building. i decided not to do it. there would have been nothing wrong if i did do it. robert: but those talks are under inten scrutiny as cohen admits he lied to congress and the president continues his political war with robert mueller after the special council withdrew a plea dwil

th paul manafort. all this while the president is abro in argentina along with russn president vladimir putin. the latest roberting next. announcer: this is "washington week." funding isvi prod by -- >> kevin. >> kevin. >> kevin. >> advice for life. life well planned. learn more a raymondjames.com. announcer: funding isprovided by, newman's own foundation donating all profits to charity and nourishing theommon good. ku and patricia ewing, committed to bridging culturalre difes in our communities. the epics in excellence inna josm foundation. the corporation for public nd

broadcasting,y contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. once again from washington, moderator robert cos. robert: good evening. the russia probe that has long gripped the trump presidency was jolted this week by michael coe went. the president's former lawr who admitted he lied to congress about what was called the mcow project. cohen had testified that talks about building a trump tower in russia had fizzled by early 2016. but in a c manhattanrtroom on thursday, cohen said the discussions about the project actually went into the summer of 2016, deep into the presidentia campaign. this development raises new questions. did the president's business pursuits withsi r shape his campaign or his message. and what does it reveal about special council robert mueller's

investigation. joining me tonight to discuss all of this are three seasoned reporters on this fast moving beat. ichael schmidt, a two-time pulitzer surprise winner and with the new york times. and rozlyn helderman investigations reporter for "the washington post"hoon a pulitzer prize this year. michael, you've been reporting on mueller for so lon there are so many pieces to this puzzle. what is this piece? the development this week, his corporatio tell us about where bob mueller is going with this entire investigation. michael: it shows that he continues to go deeper and deeper inside that inner circle of the president and really trying to figure out what wasur going ong the campaign. but i think more importantly, he's continuing to tell the story of the different pieces of the pie of what was going on in

the summer of 2016. the russians were reaching ti-out try and meet with his -- reaching out to try toth mee is son. they were trying to undermine our democracy. and they were also trying to do business with the president and trying to lay out for the average personhin t country through these documents the history and the story of this to give us a greater understanding of it. robert: the president's defending his conduct, adi these erent conversations. he began the day with a series of tweets mocking t mueller probe and defending his pursuit of the business in moscow. he said i continue to m runy business very cool. but most democrats have sounded the alarm including house intelligence committee ranking member adam schiff o california. >> it means that when the president was representing during the campaign that he h no business interests in russia, that that wasn't true.: robe just want to follow up

on something you said. it rases questions on what president trump was doing during the 2016 campaign, about the time line. he just submitted questions wrten answerso robert mueller. is there a perjury question for president tmp and his leg team? >> as soon as we saw the plea deal with cohen, the thought that we said was what's in 2 -- the answe because we knew that mueller wanted to ask him about this deal. he wannod to who he spoke to. if you're trying to understand the criminal exposure that the president has, you he to find out what that answer was. s we went, we pushed on the president's lawy get that. and what they say is that what the president put in those answers lp with what cohen said and that he's fine there. w in a trumpian twist, the president came out from thee white ho after cohen pled and said he was lying that day. he called him a liar. and said he was lying to reduce his sentence. well, if cohen is lng, then what -- it doesn't line up with

whathe president was saying in his answers. sort of classic trump there. robert: maybe mueller comes back with more questions for the president about all this at some point. >> ierind it hard to believe that bob mueller will be simply satisfied with written sponses from donald trump on a small sliver of the investigation. robert: roz, great here at the table. you've been following coh for so long. you know how valuable he really is to robert mueller investigation. what does your reporting tell you about that question. >> well, i we knowwas revealed yesterday that he sat down with bob mueller's tm believe seven separate times just in the last few months. so there's aot of information. i mean, this is a guy who was really donald trump's sort of right hand man within t trump organization. had a lot ool iment with all the dirtiest secrets of the trump organization. obviously we've seen involved deeply with the payments to women prior to the election to

silence them. but also just a lot of donald trump's overseas international business expansion. so he's a guy with a wealth ofl kne. the problem is, he's also a guy like so many people in trump world who has a tendency t exaggerate and to lie. and so you can be sure that bob mueller is gathering every piece of paper he can to try to t corroboration for anything being told by michael coe went. robert: does this tell us that mueller seesohen as pretty credible? >> it seems like he has important information to share and certainly that he has a lot o additional evidence to back up anything he wants to use. robert: y've lived in moscow. you've written a book about vladimir putin.im theing here really matters. it comes just as russia is mountingts interference campaign in 2016. then candidate trump engaging with russians at the same time.

what does it tell us about russia and putin that theg were do both of these things simultaneously. that's -- >> that's the question that immediately occurred to me. when you look at what cohen was testifying to and was included in this agreement that mueller brought to court the otheray, it includes information that multiple times that michael coe went interacted with vladimir's office through the office of his pokes spokesman -- spokesman who one of putin's closest he's been with putin since he became president so 18 years. he has been reputed to b very wealthy at the side of vladimir putin. it's not justuch random official that they're interacting with. think about this. heweaponizing information call it in russia is a trademark of this -- this new russian

power elite and the post over .yet e what does it mean? potentially it means that donald trump and his advisor cohen have offered an enormous amount of information on him to use in the middle o a political campaign. as you pointed out putin's government according to.s. intelligence was mobilizing to support donald trumpn the election using influence methods but separately he's seeking --' offering him more information. robert: you had thi marvelous profile of adam schiff who will be the new chair ofhe intelligence committee when house democrats take over in januar what can we expect from them? >> this is the first charge from theo mueller case result from lying to congress. and so what happened is that michael coe wen is actually pleading guilty to having lied to capitoll when he was called to testify in their

earlier investigation. as younow there was a very partisan report that was put out by the house republicans o the intelligence committee who then shut down their investigation. demoats under congressman schiff have vowed to reopen an investigation. the first thinghey want to do is release transcripts of the plny interviews that they took with p they say there are other people who are likely committed perjury and that may now be charged by mueller's investigati team as a result. for example, congressman schiff named robert stone as one ofe thho he believed was not truthful with his committee. robert what about the obstruction of justice? you have an acting attorney general matt whitaker. how is he responding to this? are they on edge to try to disrupt mueller? >> we've l in the past few days that whitaker has not been very involved in theusa matter. and it has stayed underneath roe tein the deputy attorney

general. there has notea been interest by whitaker in getting involved in the mueller investigation. ws he k that they are closely looking at him whether he does anything towards this ahend wh that is part of a continued obstruction. the problem is is that the president pim there because he felt comfortable with him he knew what he had said about the russian investigation. he knew that whitaker had been very skept a -- skeptical. and he built a rapport with him. and there's this sort of weird dynamic where the president has so tone. there is ongoing investigation. it's still been run by rones stein. robert: why aren't republicans trying to protect mueller with legs? >> that legs looked like it died again this week. it more recently died this week. you know, to -- for whatever reason, they don't feel the need to do thii' not sure why.

they seem very attuned to public opinion on this.ma e the republicans really don't care about it. will it take somethinglse o the president doing to get them to do that? i'm not sure. robert: the other issue, an issue broughtp this week, is that president told us there was no money involved with russia. but the moscow project wasn't the first attempt by president trump to expand his brand into u ia. you wrote "it was a dream born g trump 980's, a gleam tower in the heart of soviet moscow. for donald trump that vision never died even as he launched a presidential campaign." what expins this effort-long with russia? >> he wanted to do a thing he set out tod do he hasn't succeeded. you have to look at cohen's activities against that backdrop. cohen was a guy who wanted to please the boss.

that was sort of his self-image was being donald trump's man. and so he understood that if he could fally get the trump tower deal in moscow done, he would get in good with the boss. you this history. trump goes in 1987 --. he goes in 1986. in 2005 he signed a deal with the cpaign to tryo build. he's back in 2013. he's trying again andd again. ou see the trump organization putting its name on buildings in various other countries of the world. russia was a place he wanted to be. it was a place where his brand -- russians liked his brand. they were buying all over the world in his buildings. and he wanted a buiing there. robert: what does this mean inner the president as he's watching from argentina? u.s. relations with our own allies? >> it's been and i credibly divisive issues among money from

the united states to the allies. when he came into office he talked about lifting sanctions oson russia. have stayed in place because russia has made it clear th even a republican-controlled congress would have acted very decisively if heon moved in the direc he wanted to. enormous outcry even from republicans when he had that meeting in helsinki with vladimirut. flash forward to the g-20. he looked forward to meeting with putin. an his national security advisor said in the lead up to buenos arires wasimply to continue their discussions from helsinki. now he said, i canceled it toward russian aggrthsion over last weekend. robert: it's not just aboutti russian hty and the ukraine. k it's an excellent question.

obviously we donnow the real story here. but it's fair to say that the united states was very sluggish in its response involving the kirktrait and the ukrainian naval ship that were boarded and seized by russia. ouotherries, nato, the e.u. issued statements far stronger than those of the u.s. government. president trump seemed to say, well, there's a problem on both sides. came out and said i don't like this aggression. i don't like it a a it was much after the fact. and it didn't seem to be an issue that motivated to cancel a meeting with putin days later. when he got on the plane too to buenos aires he said he was going to have the meeting one hour later. but he canceled. robert: you would see hisdr ch there in the trump tower, don jr., ivanka, worng with hn business and on the

campaign. you read about cohen, his work with mueller, does the famil have exposure here legally and politically? >> i think inde the pre's mind, they do. and that is probably the most important thing. we don't knower what mue has. we don't know what he's doing. certainly the president, you know, heas these different red lines that he's made up. i think a true real one is the family. and they do think that there's somethinnd afoot here a that they are looking at don jr. that's what the president thinks. and that has guided some of his anger, you know, in the past month, it haslt. he didn't like the way that he -- that mueller was treatingan paulort his former campaign chairman. he didn't like the way that they were arying to enter int plea deal with this person in touch with wikileaks. he didn't like the way that they unsealed the documents and he thinks something larger is going on here. he sees the cohen thing happen right as leaving for a

meeting. he knew mueller h filed charges before he went to helsinki when he went to go meet with putin. he thinks that -- robert: there is a lot gng on. >> he thinks it's a conspiracy. robert: he thinks it's a conspiracy. it's an investigation. there was news that michael coe went isg corporatth mueller's probe. and that's significant. but so is the fact that paul manafort, his plea deal with mueller collapsed this week. manafort, hisl -- his d falling apart, does that mean he's going to break at some point, roz, and be a cooperative witness like a micha coe went or does this mean he's going to face another trial and more trouble down the road? >> there was a hearing in the special council's office told the judge that they had not decided whether to pursue further charges against himor his new lies where his crimes and lies. and it does seem like the ship

has sailed for him to be a corporating witness. this is not what an attorney wants to reach a deal. i think he's likely to come around. we're going tomp see antant development a week from today when the special council ice office goes into court and details for the judge all of his lies, all of the ways in which -- >> why do they have tos detail things? >> it's part of the way to tell the judge that his pleaeal has been breached and he's not deserving of leniency for having assisted. otherwise he would get a break in his sentence. they're going to file this report. they're going to talk about allt the thingshey were asking him about in this time period, where they felt he was not honest and they're going to have to say why they know he wasn't honest which allows them to lay out some

evidence. we're all talking about this report that might be issued. we might see some of the information we might hav expected to see in a robert in sort of stagets entered into -- ages entered into court next week. robert: we're going to get a little gleaning. >> we could get a singular report. but before then we're going to have a lot of new information. >> there's no guarantee, so mueller has to speak when he wants to speak. he always knows he'll be able to do the thinc. in pub he will not really be able to control whether a report goes. that's a decis that will be made above him at the justice dethrtment. thing to understand about manafort, is there are two people that control the fat perhaps the rest of his life. he's 69 years old. he's looking at many years in prison. either it was going to be bob mueller who was going to go to a judge and say give this manr leniency it's donald trump who is going to pardon him.

there's really no one else who has no important wayo impact the rest of his life. robert: is he searching for a pardon, susan, when you look at paul manafort, you followed his career, long time political strategist. unlike cohen does he see there's a window to get a pardon from president trump? well, aot of president have suggested that that seems to be what he's doi for -- here and that it's such an audi shouse plan to challenge someone who is as tough minded by breaching your agreement that youveust n mind that this is your only lifeline, your signal to t presidenmp who made it clear what he thinks about cooperators. he's gone over and over made the point that theirats, not trust worthy, and bad people. it seems to me he needed to restore credibility with president trump in order to mee his cor a plea. there are potentially over people who could have spoken to

paul manafort. for example he spen years and millions of dollars he has enormous relationships with russians oligarcho figure in this trump story. they have information too that could affect paul manafort and president trump. robert: what is his future lelly? we don't yet know. what we do know is that the special council has spent an enormous amount of time on the roger stone piece of his case in recentth m he's brought in at last count maybe a dozen asfrieciates of roger stone to be interviewed by presidentors or in front of -- by the prosecutors or in front of the grand jury. he has over and over and over again denied that fact. but there's clearly something

about roger stone and what he knew that bob mule ser very, very interestedn. robert: final thought, mike? the talk about a pardon, president trump hissignaling on that trump. is there an obstruction issue at all facingaf mt in these kind of conversations? >> i guess it depends on what's going on. if there was some sort of back room deal between manafort's lawynd the president's about giving them information in exchange for a pardon to interfere with the investigation highly highly problematic. if it was simply m afort's lawyers passing information back to trump's, you know, just to be a free flow of information, less so. not really clear. but what we know is that the issues of pardons have beent. looked >> you reported john dowd once president's foryer l last year having discussions with manafort and flynn's lawyers. robert: we're going to have leave it thewe.

e a live show. e're going to continue that on the podcast. we will continue this convn sation oe "washington week" podcast. you can find that friday after 10:00 p.m. and a yo onr favorite podcast app. i promise we'll get there. i'm robert costa. have a great weekend. and thanks for joining us. announcer: funding is provided -- financial services firm raymond james. newman's own foundation, ll donating profits from newman's own food products to charity and noishing the common good, the ethics in journalism foundation, ku and patricia ewing through the ewing foundation committri toing cultural differences in our communities. the corporationor public

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-explore new w worlds through programs like this. made available for everyone through contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank yo -all right, let me just check. is it -- is it very crisp in the center,e or should thcs be closer together? one, two. one, two. one, two. -for peter, paul and maryti the folk fesl at newport, rhode island, was the pinnacle of the folk renaissance of the early 1960s. for us, we could all feel the great sweep of the change that was going on around us, and music was driving it. [ cheers and applause ] for us, we could all feel the great sweep of the change -♪ if i had a hammer ♪ i'd hamr in the morning ♪ i'd hammer in the evening ♪ all over this land