♪ >> hello, everyone, and welcome to "amanpour & co." during the christmas holidays, we're dipping into the archive and looking back at some of this year's highlights. here's what's coming up. >> with your spirit, come, holy spirit, come. >> the reverend william barber, one of america's great moral leaders, just ahead of midterm elections tells me that he senses an awakening in the country, a fresh commitment to fighting poverty, bigotry, and environmental devastation. plus, the end of an era. german chancellor angela merkel is considered the firewall against a rising tide of western natiosm why is she stepping away and singer/songwriter rosanne cash makes beautiful music just for us. >> ♪ long enough

>> uniworld is a proud sponsor of "amanpour & co." when bea tollman founded a collection of boutique hotels, she had bigger dreams, and those dreams were on the water -- a river specifically -- multiple rivers that would one day be home to uniworld river cruises and their floating boutique hotels. today, that dream sets sail in europe, asia, india, egypt, and more. bookings available through your travel agent. for more information, visit uniworld.com. >> additional support has been provided by... and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> welcome to the program, everyone. i'm christiane amanpour

in new york. jesus said, you ce for and welcome the stranger, the immigrant, the undocumented is how nations will be judged." that's what the reverend william barber tells us as president trump focuses on his base by demonizing immigrants and calling them invaders in his pitch for republican votes on tuesday. while poverty still plagues this richest of countries, with almost a third of all americans living at best from paycheck to paycheck, almost 100 million americans lack adequate health insurance, and u.s. incarcerated rates are the highest in the world. my guest, reverend william barber, has been called the martin luther king of our times, a protestant minister from north carolina. he recently won this year's macarthur genius grant for leading the fight against poverty and for civil rights. you may remember his electrifying speech at the 2016 democratic national convention.

>> when some want to harden and stop the heart of our democracy, we are being called like our fore mothers and fathers to be the moral defibrillators of our times. we must shock this nation with the power of love. >> so, these two years later, when i spoke here with william barber, i asked him about finding the compassionate side, the moral imperative amidst all the trump era tumult. reverend barber, welcome to the program. >> thank you so much, christiane. >> listen, i am fascinated by one of the things you've written recently. i mean, you've named all the challenges that many communities around the states face since president trump's election. but you said this is actually a moment and we see the result of activism and pushing back and you feel that this is an opportunity. is that right? >> i do. i think that in some ways

with trump we see kind of a reliving of the -- i call it kind of the horror of 1968 when the southern strategy began. kevin phillips and richard nixon and they decided that they were going to win election by finding out who hated who, who was afraid of who and engage in what they call positive polarization. so, trump really has been speaking to an audience that's been cultivated for 50 years. but in some sense, what he has actually done is awaken the people. in the work that i'm doing, we look at systemic racism and particularly how does this see through voter suppression. poverty, systemic poverty, ecological devastation, healthcare, the war economy and the false narrative of religious nationalism. >> so, you are obviously from the religious, from the faith-based community and i'm really fascinated. you call yourself a theologically conservative liberal evangelical biblicist. >> exactly. >> how do you thread

all those needles? how can you be conservative and liberal? >> first of all, to be a conservative is to hold on to the essence. well, the essence of the bible, if you cut out all the scriptures in the bible, they talk about how you should treat the poor and the immigrant, the bible would fall apart. so, if you are anti the poor and anti-immigrants, you are not being conservative, you are not holding on to the essence of. in the constitution, it says we are first to establish justice and care for the -- and provide for the common defense and promote the general welfare. what we need to do is say to conserve means to hold on to, liberal means to give our, biblicist means to focus on the bible. and i'm -- and evangelical means to care first for the poor and to spread those things. >> this past june, when there was that immense real catastrophe of the so-called zero tolerance policy, children being ripped away from their parents and there a lot who are still separated. the attorney general used a bible verse to defend that policy

and he said that, you know, god supports the government in separating immigrant parents from their children. that was the suggestion from this verse. i would cite to you the apostle paul and his clear and wise command in romans 13 to obey the laws of the government because god has ordained the government for his purposes. how do you as an evangelical, because he is an evangelical or maybe he's not? >> well, he says he is an evangelical but he's not using biblical evangelical terms. he's using a group of -- the so-called white evangelical terms that really is rooted more in opinions than the scripture. paul challenged the government. jesus challenged the government. he challenged the herods of his day. paul was thrown in jail for challenging the government. paul was thrown in jail for saying there's no jew or gentile, there's no bond or free but we're all one. for jeff sessions to try to use that to justify an unjust policy is just like slave masters using scriptures to justify

slavery or people using scriptures to try to justify being anti-women. it's just wrong and it doesn't line up with jesus. for christians, evangelicals, jesus is lord and jesus said how you care for and welcome the stranger, the immigrant, the undocumented is how nations will be judged. >> well, and you can see that the stranger, the immigrant is a focal point of president trump and the republicans' pre-midterm campaign policy. there's a very ugly commercial out right now. i obviously know how you're gonna react to that. but how do you think the country recovers from that? of course, it goes all the way back to echoes of the willie horton ad. >> or further. >> or further. >> because remember, this anti-immigrant piece runs through the american project. we've always struggled in america with what we say on paper and who we are in reality. you go back to the 1920s and 1930s and how people who were irish and polish were seen as bad, as pushed away. now, we have a focus, and he's not just saying immigrants.

he's saying mexicans. we have to remember that. they were not just children that were snatched at the border. they were brown children. >> and now, with the caravan. >> right. these are people, many of whom are fleeing honduras and el salvador because of our policies, policies, our military policies in those areas, our deportation policies where we took gangsters out of prisons in l.a., sent them back and they created havoc down there. i'm also more concerned though about the enablers, the silence of the senators, the silence of the representatives on his party and the crowds that all are coming from immigrants. trump is not an original american name. it's not a name of native americans. they are all immigrants. and now, they want to put in place policies that if their own great-grandmothers were trying to get in the country, they wouldn't be allowed. >> today, you're looking at georgia and other such places where there are huge accusations and there have been reports of the tens of thousands, if not more than a million people struck from the rolls

and pretty much all from your community, right, african-american? >> african-american community, but also poor people, also, you know, white women. one of the most underreported stories, and i think this is where we missed it in this country, from a deep moral perspective, is since 2010, 26 states have engaged in massive voter suppression. that represents over 54 percent of all african-american voters. but if look at those states, you're talking about 52 senators, the majority of the house of representatives. >> so, what do you think the fight back should be in a place like georgia and elsewhere? >> extremists who are calling themselves republicans know they can't win if everyone votes. we have less voting rights today in america than we have at august 6, 1965, with the voting rights act having been gutted. so, there are several things we need to do. first of all, we need to vote massively in this election. i mean, just massively. and take it personal that people would try to undermine, suppress the right to vote which was won through the blood of the martyrs.

thirdly, we have to -- when a new congress comes in, we have to restore the voting rights act but we got to go further, automatic registration at 18. we need to have that election day as a holiday, early voting and same day registration in more states than just north carolina and others. it should be across the country. >> what happens when opponents of the kind of things you are saying, say, "hold on a second, reverend. you are meant to be a man of god, a spiritual man. what are you doing talking about forensic politics like you are doing right now?" >> well, my lord talked about forensic politics. his first sermon, jesus' first sermon, they almost got him lynched actually. in luke chapter 4, in the midst of caesar and narcissism and hatred and a society that was stratified, poor and wealthy. jesus' first sermon was, "i have come to preach good news to the poor," and in greek, the word poor there is ptochos. it means those who made poor by economic exploitation systems.

he then went on to say the broken-hearted, the blind, the prisoner and all of those who have been made to feel unacceptable. so, you cannot declare the gospel of jesus christ, you cannot preach the prophets of the old testament and not be engaged in the social ring. however, you don't do it from a partisan perspective. i'm not democrat or republican. i'm independent. we're raising the moral critique of this nation. >> so, tell me about poverty. i think there's a figure that somewhere around 140 million americans live either at or below the poverty line. am i right? >> we had a study done by the ips, the institute for policy study, called "the souls of poor folk" auditing america 50 years after the original poor people's campaign was basically assassinated. here are the numbers -- 140 million poor people and low wealth people in this country, 73% of them are women and children. the most are white women, children and disabled. >> see, nobody really knows that. they think that most may be minorities.

>> and they are right in terms of the percentage, in terms of the numbers within the race. but in actual numbers, raw numbers, there are more poor white and most of them are white women and children. 37 million people without healthcare even with the affordable care act. four million families that get up every morning can buy unleaded gas can't buy unleaded water. that's -- these are the numbers. and the sad thing about it is right now, even in this election, what are we talking about? a caravan is not going to get here. tweets, racism, it's all distraction and we are not talking about the real issues. but it's not just trump, i will say this on your show, because in the presidential debates in 2016, we had 26 in the primary and in the general election. not one hour was spent on voting rights. not one hour, end of the debate. in a time where we have massive voting suppression that we haven't seen since jim crow, not one hour was spent talking

about those 140 million people that are poor and the 62 million people who work every day without a living wage, and the fact that there's not one county in this country where you can make a minimum wage and basically afford a modest two-bedroom apartment. think about that. >> so, let me then ask you about those people in middle america, let's say, who were instrumental in putting president trump in the oval office. there are many who believe that his economic policies are helping them, that they see the trump winfall, so to speak. what do you say to that? >> well, the southern strategy is -- has been powerful. i mean, the lie to people. so, one of the things we are going in there to pull off the lie, to pull off the distortion and show people the actual number and we're finding success with the movement when that is happening. secondly, people are starting to see now that while you may have wall street going up, wages are going down. people voted, and now they're saying, "i didn't know about the aca." some people thought that

obamacare and the aca were two different things because of the way it was talked about. >> well, one of the issues you have been saying is healthcare, the affordable care act, aca, and i just want to put it to you that obviously for you it's very personal. i mean, i haven't said it yet but you're sitting there somewhat lopsided. you suffer from a really severe arthritic condition. and this is personal to you. >> very personal. but even deeper than that, i pastor. there's a study from harvard that says thousands of people die for every 1 million people that do not have healthcare. so, 37 million people do not have healthcare and say 3,000 to 5,000 people die. it's a lot of people who died not because god called them home or just their time but because of government policies. we're the only country of the 25 wealthiest countries that does not offer some form of universal healthcare. that is sinful. that is a violation of fundamental human rights. that is not the establishment of justice. and the number of children -- my daughter was born with hydrocephalus. she lives today. i prayed at one time

that i would live long enough to see her be able to get coverage with her pre-existing condition. and when the affordable care act passed, we cried because before then, my daughter could not be covered and there are thousands of people like that. i could tell you about kelly green in alabama whose daughter died because she had a terminal cancer that could have been treated, but alabama refused to accept medicaid expansion. and again, the strangeness of it is, most of the people in alabama that would have been benefited are white. but as a pastor, i have to bury people. i have to stand over their caskets, and there's a group of us that have said that if anybody in our congregation has died because of lack of healthcare, we're going to call the media and we're going to ask the families and say, "look, this is what happens when politicians, as isaiah said, make unjust laws." and how is it then -- this is the thing -- a deep moral question.

because i think the question for us now is not will the democratic party survive or the republican, but will america survive? almost all of these politicians, when they get sworn into office, they first thing they want to do is put their hand on the bible and swear to uphold the constitution. many of them once they do that they don't -- they act like they don't know what's in the constitution or the bible. how is it that you come to congress as a senator or representative and you get free healthcare? free healthcare from the people, paid for by the people, the best healthcare only because you got elected. but then every morning, you elect to get up and try to vote to repeal a program to give some americans healthcare. how can you -- how do you do that morally? that is the question. what is going on in your mind that you would not want your constituents to have the very thing you have only because your constituents have voted to send you to washington, d.c., or to send you to the state

house or to make you governor? that's what i mean by some of these issues are not about left versus right and democrat versus republican but about right versus wrong. >> and we will see the results. >> thank you so much. >> thank you very much. >> right versus wrong. now, on the world stage, it seemed that ever since the turn of the century, literally one leader above all, one woman, stood as the protector of the liberal democratic world order that emerged from the ashes of world war ii. it has kept the peace in europe ever since as well as economic prosperity and order. that defender is the german chancellor angela merkel, a proud moderate, a centrist in this era of extremes. once she seemed almost invincible. now, she's on her way out, saying that she will not run for re-election in 2021. so, how will her departure change germany, europe, and perhaps even the world? journalist stefan kornelius has been covering angela merkel since the late 1980s.

he's written her authorized biography "angela merkel: the chancellor and her world." and he joins me now. stefan kornelius, welcome to our program. are we putting too much on angela merkel's shoulders? are we correct in thinking that for all these years she has held the line, held the center in a world that is shifting so sort of precipitously? >> well, the further you get away from germany the more you put on her shoulders and the more you limit european-german politics on that single woman. on the other side, yes, you are more than right -- she is an extraordinary person and she's so outstandingly different now in the time where nationalism and different leader types are evoked. so, basically, yes, this woman is holding a lot of things together. and since she announced that she would withdraw, even though it is only in three years' time, probably earlier, but we have to assume

that she could probably finish her term. since she did that, yes, you really can feel how that power flows away from her, how she -- how this unliberal forces are almost tubulating and basically getting rid of her. >> so, you know, 2021 would be a next election. now, she's done four and she's been elected. so, it's very unlikely that she would have ever run again anyway. but the next meaningful one is in december when she is also going to step down as chairman of her party, the cdu. so, you sort of implied that the power is kind of leaking away from her. will she be a lame-duck chancellor even if she does continue to the end of her term? >> well, yes and no. the german party system, the german political system provides the party leader with quite some powers. and having both the party leadership and the chancellorship means ultimate power, and giving away both voluntarily and stepping

away from the party leadership that early will definitely weaken her. but on the other side, you cannot get rid of a chancellor basically by writing him off or her off. she is voted in her office. it is pretty difficult to get her out of office. the german constitution provides a lot of safeties for a stable government. we know from our historical experience that we shouldn't really push aside governments like other countries do. i mean, like italy. italy has a huge number of governments changing over time. so, this gives her some stability. and we probably will look at this news now in two, three months in a bit different -- from a different angle and see that she's even more liberated and that she could spend the accumulated capital, political capital, she amassed over the past years more freely over the past years or probably months she will remain in office.

yes, she will be a lame duck to some extent but the german chancellor is -- >> no, no. i don't mean to interrupt you. but that is a really intriguing concept, that she might be liberated to pursue even more of her policies. so, what might they be? because clearly, you remember way back in 2000, you quoted it, she quoted it -- she talked about her vision as being the market plus humanity. so, she's obviously a conservative economist, if i could put it that way, but she has tried to have a compassionate, christian, humane government and policy. and, of course, we saw that when she allowed these immigrants fleeing war and devastation in their own country in 2015 to come in. that seems to have backfired on her. how does she go forward with that very issue now? >> well, on immigration issue, you are right. it totally backfired and she not only was liberal

or welcoming to those migrants because she was liberal mind or had an open heart, but because she's a very pragmatic and clear-thinking woman. not the german chancellor, not a single politician in europe would have been able to stop 15,000 migrants a day crossing the german border. so, i guess she didn't close the borders or didn't send them back for several reasons. she would have destabilized vast parts of east and southeast europe, she would have sent an extremely devastating message about germany's culture to the outside world. and she couldn't have lived up to the promises in the end anyway because those people would have turned around and come through the back door. you cannot seal off germany. this is not possible. so, what she did is she put in policies in place with turkey, with other neighboring countries across the mediterranean and northern africa to basically channel this flow of migrants and actually trickle it down.

it's definitely it's too many people coming to europe. now, that took time. and that was the basic mistake. she communicated badly and she now pays a huge price. she lost power for that in germany. this is the single issue which has turned against her and it will be the issue which she will be compelled to deal with for the remaining time in her office. but things she could do or have to do with european unity, with the rise of populism in europe. >> well, that's the next question. you had written and others that europe must be shivering right now, thinking that she is about to step off her world platform. and you talk about populism, even in your own country, the remarkable rise of the very extreme right afd, now the third biggest party -- who could have thought that -- and merkel's party losing quite dramatically in the last two rounds of local elections. where do you see the political power center moving in germany post-merkel?

>> fascinating question. it's the key question. i mean, merkel moved the political landscape far to the left. her cdu conservative party is now basically the centrist party in germany. almost eliminating the social democrats. this is a new party pattern and we do see the rise of populist and nationalist parties not only in germany but all over europe. honestly, germany was the last country which was infected by this kind of populism and nationalism. so, we do see now a new party pattern. and those successors who are now in line to follow her and are -- have the best chances to succeed her will push the party back again to the right a little bit. and therefore, make it probably harder for the populist and nationalist parties or two of the party, the afd, to succeed. nevertheless, it is a battle. it is a huge battle and it's not a german battle. it's a european one. watch the european elections next spring and you might see that populist party in the sum will be in the majority

in the european parliament. >> so, now, let's take it to the world stage. of course, we have this phenomenal picture that was snapped in a moment. it probably wasn't what we think it is but it is this picture of angela merkel leaning into a seated arm's crossed very defensive looking donald trump. and of course, she -- when he first came in, she congratulated him but said that relations depend on commitment to mutual values and institutions. and you've seen the fraying of those mutual values and institutions. she's upset about pulling out of the climate treaty. she's upset about the u.s. pulling out of the iran nuclear deal and et cetera, et cetera. how does this -- how does europe continue to have a, you know, sovereign standoff with president trump, if you like? >> well, it's a tectonic change for europe. trump's behavior, the new american policy is much more challenging to europe as one would --

as one would think from, let's say, looking from the american heartland. it has a much bigger effect on europe and germany than so many other things. trade will now hugely debate it. well, luckily, merkel was the first one who conditionalized relations with donald trump. she, as you said, stood up to him at the very first moment of his presidency, the morning after he was elected and said, "i'm willing to work with you, but there are some ground rules we have to follow." now, definitely donald trump hasn't followed those ground rules and angela merkel came back from the first g7 summit in italy and said, "we'll have to find a way where we can sort of find our own thing here in europe. we have to rely on ourselves a little bit more." and this is what europe is trying to do now, but it's a tough thing. >> right. >> right now, europe isn't split over the american policies. it could very well be if donald trump choose to enhance more his ties to populist movements. >> and, of course, we will see how that goes after the midterms.

stefan kornelius, thank you so much for joining us. so, now, we turn and kick off a starry second half of our show. and i'll speak to the amazing rosanne cash just out with a new critically acclaimed album. she gives us an intimate performance along with some intimate stories of her life. but first, we turn to a man who's been the toast of broadway as well as the big and the small screens. the singer and the actor, mandy patinkin, has played many roles from che guevara in "evita" to a cia operative in "homeland." but for him, his latest role is his most important, being a real-life advocate for refugees, working with the international rescue committee. patinkin has crisscrossed the globe, meeting some of the world's most vulnerable people, and it's had a profound impact upon him and his work as he has told our alicia menendez. >> so, i think most people know your work on stage and on screen but the work i get the sense

you are most proud of is your work raising awareness about the state of refugees across the world through the irc. i wonder how did you get started with that work? >> well, it was a gift in this point of my life that i wasn't expecting to receive. i was in berlin, shooting the fifth season of "homeland." the first episode of that season took place in a syrian refugee camp at the exact same time that 125,000 refugees were trying to get across the balkan route to sanctuary. and at that moment, when i saw those photos and those people, i saw my own ancestors, my grandpa max and grandma celia my wife's grandma masha, and i felt they were my family. they were little boys and families just like my two sons that are no longer little boys and i wanted to be with them and i wanted to hold their hand and give them water and give them comfort and let them know people cared. and i go every year after i finish shooting something to a hot spot somewhere in the world where there's a crisis, a refugee crisis. on occasion i bring members of my family and we meet people

and we record their stories and take photos because of the instagram world and write -- and spend great deal of time describing where we were and what we saw. in march of 2016, the wall shut down and european union stopped accepting people, so everything went into limbo. and in terms of temporary crisis where they were moving 5,000 to 8,000 people, you know, at a time across lesvos, it's locked. and what became a temporary situation a permanent situation with healthcare and education and everything. and now, you have -- on lesvos, you have the moria settlement camp, which is just overflowing. i think there's 20,000 people on the greek islands and they have capacity for 7,000. so, people are trying to commit suicide. >> it sounds like numbers until you see it. >> yes. and it isn't numbers when you see it.

it's people's lives, beautiful people. when we -- when i first went i met the alassy family. they were the only one left in kara tepe in lesvos. everyone else had moved out. the irc had built a city literally with gender-based violence, tents, you know, to take care of women who've experienced gender-based violence of women's issues, of children's family, tents, showers, medical tents, et cetera. to move 5,000, 8,000 people a day that were coming across in these dinghies that had room for 24 and 60 people were in them. at one point, i got my wish and a dinghy came up to the island. again, somebody handed me a little girl in a pink jacket and that's all i wanted was to help a child. and then i looked at her and i thought she had died. she wasn't breathing. i later found out that she had epilepsy, had an attack in the boat. she's squeezing my finger. that's good. we got her with the irc to get medical attention and reunited with her family and all is well for that family. but another family i met,

they were left with their two boys, the alassy family, in a tent all alone. and i was fortunate enough i was able to give them the means to get to the ferry, to get to -- and to get to germany. and the second year, i took my wife to germany to reunite us all with that family, which was unbelievably moving. >> when you hear about refugees and the stories we tell about refugees, it's very othering. and when you actually are with refugees, in that moment you realize, "oh, wow. this could be me. this could be anybody." >> absolutely. one day, my grandfather used to say in yiddish, "dos redele dreyt zikh," which means the wheel is always turning. if you're on top, you better be nice because one day that wheel will turn and you'll be at the bottom. if you don't open that door and be a welcoming human being to your fellow human being, don't expect someone to welcome you. we've become a nation of walls, not welcome. and it's a humanitarian crisis. it's a crime against humanity. >> i wanted to ask you about

that because i think very often we talk about the refugee crisis. we talk about it as something that is happening overseas and abroad. when it is happening at our southern border, how does that comport with the work you do with irc? >> well, they are there and they are working. it's a crisis of monumental concern. some of these families will never be reunited. we've lost them. there are some that are already lost just like the thousands that have been lost in the aegean sea. you know, we've lost them, but we haven't lost today and tomorrow. where is our moral ethical nature, our humanity? it was one of the defining factors of this country, of why we're here. our country used to take in approximately 90,000 refugees a year. the previous administration had a cap when they left at 110,000. the new administration came and dropped to it 45,000. congress is voting to create a new cap of only 30,000 refugees to the united states of america, less than 1%

of the world communities welcoming of these people. we are less than 1% the most powerful country in the world and third-world countries are taking the brunt of this whole thing, economically, a humanitarian crisis-wise and that's not proper. and it's not who we are. who are you morally and ethically? take a walk. be quiet. be by yourself. don't listen to television, newscasts, and podcasts and just ask yourself in private, what is my moral ethical nature and are my representatives mirroring my moral ethical nature? and if they're not, find representatives who are going into the political field that do represent that. and if you don't know them, find people who do. and i tell people, i'd much rather you not listen to my music, you not go to my concerts, you not watch my television shows or films, just vote.

that's all i ask is that we vote in this free democracy. vote. vote not for yourself. vote for those who don't have a vote, those who don't have a home to belong in. vote for what you hope never happens to your children or grandchildren. >> i was brought to mind a quote from david jones that says, "it is both a blessing and a curse to feel everything so very deeply." and so the blessing is apparent. there is the passion of the blessing. what's the curse? >> the curse is it's good for the work because the work often is heightened. i'm an actor. and so it's a heightened condition of the human condition that we display often. even if it's funny or lighthearted, it's heightened. and it's not great in life to have that heightened condition. in life, it's good to breathe, to be calm.

it's just the name of the game whether you're the greatest artist or politician or writer or scientist or school teacher or garbage man. you know, you have two sides of yourselves. other cultures call it a yin and a yang. you don't -- you need them both. you need -- >> well, because amidst all of the intensity around your work with refugees and the intensity that you have to bring to that portrayal of saul on "homeland," your music -- you have this recording out and you're going to be doing live performances. listening to that music, i was like this is an incredible counterweight to all of this intensity. it is delicate, and i wonder, sitting here with you, if you almost need that. >> i have to have it. it's my broccoli. it's my oxygen. i had -- i walked away from it for a few years while i was shooting "homeland," not because of schedule. because i did it while i was shooting "homeland" before i did concerts but my piano player retired. i'd been with him 30 years

and he wanted to move on. so it's like fred and ginger, you know. i thought i've lost my dance partner and i didn't know if i could go on. and then finally, bob hurwitz, who's the president of nonesuch records, hooked me up with an extraordinary young musician named thomas bartlett. and he sent me on christmas eve when i was supposed to go do work with the -- in bangladesh with the rohingya at cox's bazar but irc wasn't there yet and we couldn't go for political reasons at that time. so i had two weeks in the middle of "homeland" to stay home, and i called thomas bartlett up. i said, listen, i got two weeks. you got any time? he said, "yeah." i said i just don't want to do anything that was anything like i did for the past 30 years. i had learner's block for a few years. he said, "no worries. i'll send you something." he sends me 350 songs, so i chose 28 of them. i then went into the studio on the 26th of december of '17 and we started recording. we hit the record button on everything. and then thomas and i finished. i had to go back to "homeland." and he sent me like, you know, 10 or 12 of these songs and he said, "i think

you should listen to this. i think we got something here." ♪ ♪ sing a song of long ago ♪ when things could grow ♪ days flowed quietly so i worked with thomas, and he gave me a new life. it's, you know, it's how i survived. >> let's talk about "homeland." i am a dedicated viewer, but for those who don't know, how would you describe the show? >> well, it's become different things in different seasons. it began as a fictional wonder that took a marine and flipped their heads around and made him an enemy. and we didn't understand that and it also made the enemy a human being. and that was a wonderful thing to see. and we couldn't tell what was going on. it was supposed to only last one season, that storyline. but the chemistry between damian

and claire was so great that they kept it going. and so finally, it came to an end. and then our writers would reinvent and then it became -- it morphed into what i would often refer to as kind of a polaroid of our time. and that frustrated me because i didn't feel we were a reality show or a new show. i feel that we're an art form where we need to have a poetic answer to the world we're living in and existing in around us. >> just don't communicate with him under any circumstances. >> why the hell not? >> because i'm on to another situation. i don't want you alerting anybody. >> what situation? >> can't say. a russian intelligence operation involving active measures against the president

of the united states. >> the actor who i loved as saul on homeland was also the actor who i loved as inigo montoya in "princess bride," was also che on the soundtrack of "evita" that i had grown up listening to. most actors do not get that opportunity. and i wondered at the time, when you took those roles, did you know how big they were going to be, the impact that they were going to have on culture? >> never. i just went to work and i did what my teacher gerald friedman taught me to do, was he taught me how to define an action. my action right now is to listen to you, to hear you. i know there's a scene that we have been talking a lot. but when you ask me, when i'm with you, and i understand that people out there are listening and my action to them is to try to connect. that's my favorite word that james lapine repeated in "sunday in the park with george" over and over and over again -- "connect, george, connect." if there are any words i want on my tombstone,

it's "he tried to connect." and what i want all of us to do globally is try to connect. if we fail, get up again. and if you go to the grave trying to connect, your children will continue it for you, but don't give up. and then when something becomes successful, it's just you don't need to understand it, you don't need to analyze it. if somebody could analyze it or put it through some algorithm, then everybody would have everything they ever did be successful and a big hit. it's not how it works. it's taking chances. and if you're not gonna get up in the morning and take a chance and risk something about your comfort zone, don't get up. stay in bed. >> mandy, thank you so much. >> thank you. >> such a passionate mandy patinkin. probably because one of the untold stories is the unfair fact that it never gets told that the refugees actually

don't destabilize the countries they come to. they are integrated, especially in germany. they don't bring more crime, even though they're demonized as doing so. it really is a moment where we have to put the facts out. now, just as mandy patinkin feels that drive to connect as he just said, so too does my next guest, singer/songwriter rosanne cash. cash is a smart, insightful, and always original creative artist who produced some 15 albums and multiple best-selling books, earning her a shelf-full of awards and accolades in the process. cash is the daughter of the musical legend johnny cash, and she has a new album out. it is called "she remembers everything." and it's a sometimes painfully honest exploration of the traumas and the triumphs that brought her to where she is today. when i spoke with rosanne cash at the feinstein's/54 below right here in new york, she was accompanied by her husband and musical collaborator of the past 25 years, john leventhal. she began our conversation

by playing the title song of her new album. >> ♪ i didn't know her then, my enemy ♪ ♪ my treasured friend outside this waking dream ♪ ♪ she remembers everything ♪ i don't know her now, my bitter pill, my broken vow ♪ ♪ this girl, this bird who sings ♪ ♪ she remembers everything >> rosanne cash, welcome to the program. >> thank you. >> so we've just heard you and your husband play "she remembers everything." it's got a great write-up, your new album. what do you remember? do you remember everything? >> [ laughs ] probably. i mean, that's -- i was thinking about that when i was writing the lyrics, that a woman's memory is trustworthy and that it

could be like a library where you could pull things out. i think it would be a burden to consciously remember everything, every person you met, what you were doing on your 12th birthday, you know. but it's comforting to me to think that it's somewhere. >> you have said collaborating with your husband is, you know, the very best of romance. how so? >> because being creative together is very romantic, capital r. and that doesn't mean it's not without its challenges. and we certainly get into each other's business sometimes too much and take things personally. you know, what do you mean you don't like that note i sang? but to create something together, that to me that's the ultimate romance. >> take me back to your childhood. >> no. >> you don't want to go? you don't want to go that bad? >> do you want to go back to your childhood?

>> being the daughter of johnny cash, is that a burden or is it a privilege? is it a pain in the neck to be constantly asked about it? you know, you had the experience of your own parents' marriage falling apart. >> yeah. well, and i'm certainly not the only child who's a child of divorce. i mean, it was complicated because my dad was a drug addict and he was on the road a lot. my mother was, you know, out of her mind with fear and rage and it was complicated. but fast-forward, i am literally the only middle-aged woman i know who still gets constantly asked about her parents. what would your parents think? what would your dad think? it's like, wow, it does -- it's -- i get it because he's such a huge figure and he casts a long shadow, but sometimes it is a burden. >> so how do you deal with it? just to be quiet and -- >> act of compassion. i remember i try

to remind myself that when people just want to look through me to see him, that they are looking for something, something to validate them, something to look up to, to some kind of light to shine on them and he represents a lot to a lot of people. i understand it. sometimes it's too much. >> so the quote, "i could not have written these songs on this new album 10 years ago, not even close. time is shorter and i have more to say." tell me about what time has done for you. >> well, i'm sure you know as a woman who has carved her place out in the world and in a boys club because i did the same. what time has done for me is relieve me of the need to people-please. and it's also given me more confidence. and i've actually had a reverse experience to a lot of people i know in that they have gotten burnout

at this point in my life. i feel liberated. i feel more excited about this record than i do about my first one, than i did about my first one. and that's an odd thing that i didn't expect out of aging. and at this point, i also feel like i don't want to pretend to be younger. i earned it. i'm happy here. >> and every line and every stress and every wrinkle -- >> okay, so not -- [ laughter ] >> you earned it and it's a badge of honor. >> yeah. i mean, i don't love the wrinkles and all that business. but it is a sign that i've been a couple of places, i've been around the block a few times. >> i guess i say that because in new york, you look around and everybody of a certain age looks like they've been through a wind tunnel, unrecognizable. >> shocking. >> shocking. i don't know why i brought it up but it obsesses me. >> but i often -- you know, i have four daughters,

and i think who will model to them how to age gracefully if not me. and if i'm panicked about it or resist it or don't want it, then how are they gonna know how to do it. >> so which obviously brings me to the point that you sort of touched upon, how hard was it, how difficult was it for you as a woman in this business? >> well, it is a boys club. and, you know, i have plenty of my own me too stories and, you know. >> can you share some? >> i don't think these specifics are important but just fill in the blanks of radio promoters and record guys and, you know, being in a business that was virtually all men at that point when i started out, and they would try to take advantage of that. >> and how did you deal with it? >> i kept my head down and i showed up for work. and i developed a thick skin

but an open heart. i developed a thick skin but i was aware that i had to keep my open heart if i wanted to work the way i work and do what i do, you know. songwriter, you got to plumb some depths to do that. but i also never -- i just assumed that i could play on a level playing field, that i was as good or i was gonna be as good with hard work anyway and that i didn't have to defer. and i hated that thing of women songwriters, women musicians, like we were the b team or something. i just -- i don't like that. >> and -- >> i bet you don't either. >> i hate it. i mean, i often think about how i dealt with it as well. and, you know, the trick is, as you say, put your head down, keep working but you have to be careful not to become too tough. >> too rigid. >> and too rigid and too invulnerable. i wonder whether you're aware of some of the backlash within the female circles...

>> sure. >> ...to me too and what you make about that. i mean, i'm almost hearing women band together with certain men saying that, oh, we shouldn't be characterized as snowflakes and they feel that somehow women who are standing up for themselves are taking on the mantle of victim. >> do you know what my middle daughter chelsea calls that? patriarchal stockholm syndrome. >> oh, that's good. >> yes. isn't that good? >> yes, she can market that one. >> t-shirts, hats. >> that's good. >> i mean, i have to agree. i think that's the case. i mean the patriarchy is not just -- it's not just men. >> you are quite political in terms of issues that you choose. the whole sort of gun violence, obviously, issue came right to the heart of your industry at las vegas last year when a crazy guy just mowed down people at a festival in las vegas. and afterwards, you wrote,

"country musicians, stand up to the nra. the stakes are too high to not disavow collusion with the nra." explain that. it's quite pointed. i mean, collusion with the nra. what sort of response did you get and why did you put it that way? >> well, i have been an advocate for gun control and against gun violence for 20 years. i've served on boards. i've done galas. i've done op-eds. that one was in the new york times. i mean, so this is not a new thing for me, and i saw this kind of malicious inner weaving of the nra with constant promotion and -- >> tell me how because i'm not so familiar. >> well, particularly country artists, some of them would sign deals with the nra, you know. i guess lucrative sponsorship deals or something. and it seemed so wrong to me

that there was -- people were conflating the nra with patriotism. it's just wrong. i'm a patriot and i think the second amendment is so abused and overused and is ripe for revision. any amendment can be revised, and so i said that you know, country musicians don't conflate that, don't conflate patriotism with guns. and there were very few people who actually spoke up and agreed. it was shocking to me. >> was there the opposite? i mean, did you get sort of, in today's sort of jargon, trolled? >> sure. of course. yeah, a lot of blowback. >> even from within your industry? >> no, not within my industry. pop and rock artists, you know, they were like, "right on, i'm so glad you said that." the country artist not so much. maybe a couple but yeah, the trolling was intense.

you know, it comes and goes. but like i said, i have lost the need to people-please. i'm really too old to care about the insults. >> you know, we're all trying to figure out how to place this moment in history. >> yeah. >> i guess the closest thing that we come to is 1968. i mean, we were all young in 1968, however, it was a very, very divisive, polarized and tragic time with the assassinations of two great leaders here, dr. king, rfk, huge demonstrations against the war, political protests here. >> kids getting killed on college campuses. i mean, it was intense. i remind myself of that often like, that was an intense time and we got through it. >> and that was obviously when your father was coming up and his music was the sort of, i guess, the bomb or the anthem. >> well, you had plenty of protest songs and his music as well. you know, he was able to hold two opposing thoughts

at the same time, to oppose the vietnam war and to go play for the troops, you know. so that was a great model for me. >> so how do you see your music, especially this new album, being relevant and useful for our time? >> well, i think a woman of my age assuming her own validity and telling her own truth has power just in itself. this is a mature life lived and not without its serious bumps in the road and regrets and, you know, taking stock of myself and madness and loss and love and mortality. and realizing that in a long-term relationship, it's inevitable that one of you is going to leave the other. you know, i felt i had to write about that as well and about trauma and early trauma,

how hopefully you don't live with it the rest of your life. but in some way you do try to get away from it, heal it, close it down. and i was thinking in writing "she remembers everything," what were you like before the trauma, what would you have been, and how close to that can you get. >> fantastic. rosanne cash, thank you very much indeed. >> thank you so much. it was such an honor to be here with you. >> thank you. likewise. thanks for watching "amanpour & co." on pbs, and we're going to leave you with one more performance from rosanne and her husband and collaborator, john leventhal. "everyone but me" from her new album "she remembers everything." ♪ >> ♪ and all the backroom art ♪ we run a similar course ♪ on a track laid with broken glass ♪ ♪ so tie your shoes real tight

♪ it goes by real fast ♪ mother and father, now that you're gone ♪ ♪ it's not nearly long enough ♪ still it seems too long thank you. >> uniworld is a proud sponsor of "amanpour & co." when bea tollman founded a collection of boutique hotels, she had bigger dreams, and those dreams were on the water -- a river, specifically -- multiple rivers that would one day be home to uniworld river cruises and their floating

boutique hotels. today, that dream sets sail in europe, asia, india, egypt, and more. bookings available through your travel agent. for more information, visit uniworld.com. >> additional support has been provided by... and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> you're watching pbs.

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